Sorcerers free kills? 1/10

I never get tired of the "OP if they have an entire other person dedicated to keeping them and [mostly] only them alive argument.

What I said is accurate. Your response was that if you use all those CCs all at once you'd trigger resolve immunity. Why would you EVER use those CCs all at once without pause? The whole point of each CC is to create distance so you can get more free damage before the gap is closed again and you use the next CC. Your argument basically boils down to: Resolve exists, therefore excessive CC can never be overpowered. This is a twisted view of the situation and frankly I feel you're just trolling with an argument that's just blatantly stupid in order to annoy me. Can I have a stun/mezz attached to all my abilities? Obviously resolve would keep me from using them all in a row so it would totally be fine right?

Because it was already responded to by the other posted a few pages back. He pretty much covered what I wanted to say. Resolve effects all CC. It's not an excuse for one class having stupid amounts of it. It's a terrible argument.

The point is I listed CC and wrote down how they work. It doesn't matter if an ability can be "countered" because everything in the game can be countered one way or another. It's unrealistic to list every single way an ability can be countered. Other classes can be countered as well. It's not specific to Sorcerers. Saying "Well if I knock you back you can Force Charge" then begs the response "Well then you can Sprint away right after". I acknowledge that there are things other classes can do to respond to something a Sorcerer can do. The argument is that a Sorcerer can simply do too much too well. Edit: It's almost raid time and I apologize for the short responses. I'll take the time to provide a more through response later. I was a bit agitated when I started reading your previous post and saw the 100th(at least) person that missed/skipped [part of the OP.

Shiro it's not a matter of having an ability bound. It's a matter of the ability in question being a fairly significant DPS loss.

That's anecdotal evidence. You might be better than the people you play with. They might be gearing wrong, speccing wrong, doing it wrong, etc. In general a well played Watchman/Annihilation (our best spec) Marauder will be beaten by an equally geared and skilled player on a Vanguard, Commando, or Sniper. I know it's a shame considering we're the only pure DPS melee AC in the game but it is how it is.

You clearly didn't read it. Your very first comment shows that you looked at the "Standard" builds I posted and skipped over the Hybrid CC heavy specs I posted. You also use the "It can be countered therefore it is useless" argument for your CCs. If that were actually true you wouldn't mind losing some of it would you? You JUST said it was all worthless after all.

I honestly don't think it's the damage that's out of control. I see CC as the main overpowered selling point for a Sorcerer/Sage.

Red=Response

It might be good in RP and Crew Skills I guess. In PvE and PvE the build is worthless.

If you're talking about pre-mades then I don't understand how you can defend Sorcerers. In any premade Sorcerers>All with 1 Juggernaut for Huttball.

My response is in red.

My response is in red.

I noticed that Gore made my FS hit harder(up from 5k to 5.5k on average in my older gear) on raid bosses(although not by much due to the stacking 20% armor debuff bug and having 3-4x 20% in our 16m when I was carnage). Your targets may or may not have a noticeable amount of armor. Try testing it on a tank friend and you'll notice a large damage difference. The last time I played Carnage was 1.1.1 so I may be wrong and a patch may have fudged it up but I don't understand why the devs would screw around with Gore or Force Scream.

The problem with certain Sage abilities having a delay isn't relevant to this discussion. That's a completely different issue having to do with class mirroring and Bioware's decision to have animations dictate damage/healing/action. I agree that Sages need these discrepancies to be corrected but to say they're a totally different class is completely false. These animation delays have little impact overall despite even though I would like them to be fixed regardless. For now just take solace in the fact that your TK Throw isn't a giant glowing "IM OVER HERE" sign like Force Lightning.

Force Scream is Kinetic Damage. Kinetic Damage is reduced by armor. Gore gives you 100% armor penetration. Yes.

Mike do you even read when I respond to you? I've said this multiple times.. I posted build up near the top that have all the CC I'm talking about. 0/18/23 or 0/23/18

A lot of it has to do with the melee players that are mediocre just rerolling before hitting 50. The ones that are left are generally people that are at least kind of good.

Sustained Operative DPS is very competitive. The problem is most fights HEAVILY punish you for bringing any melee at all.

Erm.. Did you look at the ones above the "Standard Hybrid"? I provided Standard non-CC heavy specs for a damage comparison with the two CC heavy variants. It was to show that the overpowered CC heavy specs do not give up a significant amount of damage in a PvP setting to gain a ton of CC.

What? Can you please at least explain? That seems like a general statement that has nothing to do with what I wrote in my OP or anything I've posted thus far. It's also not a new thread. It's the same thread reincarnated because the GMs for whatever reason archive threads over 1k posts and copy/paste the Original Post.

Exactly. Juggs aren't complained about a lot because they're mainly good for Rage spec and for scoring at lightspeed in huttball. They exploit mistakes(people standing where they can leap) and punish people pile them(but don't do much burst outside of smash). Sorcerers don't punish mistakes. They change games by the way they play. They don't need you to mess up to be of significant use. They're 90% as good as anyone else when it comes to everything but tanking and they're by far the most versatile and excessively CC heavy class in the game. They're also not squishy due to bubble cancelling out their light armor for the most part. Juggs have weaknesses. Sorcerers have no major flaws or weaknesses. They're a class that's just too solidly built.

Because people were justifying the CC by claiming that was ALL they had. Utility seems to be a more broad term that covers the topic of their bubble balancing out their squishyness and the hybrid spec not sacrificing any major damage for utility(mostly CC). I still maintain that their CC is what is OP but the new title should hopefully keep circular arguments involving "squishyness" and "gimped DPS in hybrid specs" out.

Edit: Thanks <3