You know what would inevitably happen with that? People would get to 49, and get fully decked out in 49 purples, and still claim that they're pvp elites because they stomp everyone without battlemaster gear. And the massive imbalance that is 10-49 will be skewed even more. I guarantee you those pvp guild battlemaster premades, if they all got level 40s with average green/blue gear, they would own 10-49 brackets much harder than they do now at 50 with their battlemaster gear. They own as hard as they do because they knwo what they're doing, and coordinate within a group. ... Think a little guys.

I can anecdotally provide evidence too. I'm at 50, I'm not battlemaster geared or running around in premades all the time. Last night I won 4 out of my 7 solo queued WZs, some against partial Battlemaster premades. Thus I have disproved the theory it's not possible to compete or have fun without gear. I'm sorry you don't have fun, but it's not the gear's fault. If you simply have more fun playing against people closer to your skill level, which is also logical, what we should be clamoring here for are a rated WZ system, not a removal of pvp gear.

Just so people stop taking the numbers out of context, yes I am aware of the offensive and defensive side of the ball. The quote I was trying to disprove stated that 6-7 lowbies were unable to kill 1 battlemaster alone. Since it's a question of just killing him with 6, in that case only the 8.75 defensive reduction applies since no one should be able to stand up to a bolstered 6-7 players without some external factors.

Ok, by that logic let me ask you. Everyone will end up at 50 eventually. Why not just start everyone at 50? Because a good deal of the fun in mmos is in the journey. It's exciting to get that new gear. It's all well and good to say, lets be a game where everyone is exactly the same, and make playing all about the skill. Heck that's what Warhammer has somewhat done. But have you noticed that in the last few years, games of ALL types are being improved by adding some kind of progression? MOST people LIKE the feeling of accomplishment of moving forward. Personally if I ever max out a game, (ie WoW), and there's nothing left to accomplish, I lose interest and move on. For those people who claim to enjoy the skill aspect of the game, why is it that you can ONLY enjoy it if it's a completely level playing field? And that top tier exists for those who have finished the progression, and are now ready to play the game purely for that. I guarantee that star wars has many many more players in it's current state, than if it was a, 50 character with full battlemaster gear out of the box pvp, game. How many people actually played on the WoW arena servers? Not a sustaining amount.

Because frequently nowadays, the time investment gives you something to work toward. This question is like asking, why allow people who have been playing the game for 2 months and hit 50 the ability to do 50 flash points and hardmodes, because they're a more powerful character than someone who just rerolled at 1? That incentive is what keeps the majority of people playing, the prospect of getting more and more powerful. The problem here lies with if the new player can't have fun with their lower amounts of power. This is obviously not true with levelling because they get to play through the content. But I'm here to argue this is not the case with 50 pvp either. Sure I'm at a disadvantage. I'm at a disadvantage still. But I still have a lot of fun because I'm still competitive, and can still contribute to a winning team very clearly. Do you hate pve gear progression too because someone can do more damage than you because he's put more effort into improving his gear? And it comes perhaps with the extra satisfaction of knowing that I beat superior geared competition. I guarantee you that I have a win rate at over 50% since hitting 50. This isn't because I'm some kind of godly player, but because all things considered, the WZs will likely be balanced. Sometimes you run against big premades and that sucks (premading is another issue entirely) but sometimes you still even win those games because of a similar premade on your side. Sometimes everyone is ungeared. It all evens out. At the end of the day, don't be afraid to try. That gear will come quicker than you think, and you might even enjoy your time playing with the slight disadvantage. It'll make you a stronger player.

I'm not arguing against you. That's why the 50s bracket was created, and most serious pvpers have been clamoring for it for some time. I don't miss having sub 50s in WZs even a little bit. I was simply calling him out for having a ridiculous example such as 6-7 vs 1 battle master and the battlemaster not dying, pointing out that there had to be external influences, and not noticing them as being part of the definition of less skilled pvp.

Also people act like it's impossible to get pvp gear without already being decked out. First of all, the other team is not going to be all battlemasters. There are plenty of other newer 50s on the other team as well. Second, you will likely have battlemasters of your own. All things told, there will not be a huge huge imbalance in most of the games. Secondly as I already listed in a previous example, your first day at 50 will likely see you get at least 2-3 pvp purples, and suddenly that expertise gap is significantly smaller. So why the fear? If you hit 50 and run into a 1v1 vs a battlemaster, sure you're probably gonna die. But that scenario is not indicative of 50s pvp, or at least it shouldn't be (ie, don't run into a 1v1 vs a battlemaster if you're in all greens)

I understand 1v1 that it's a big deal. He was talking about 6-7 v 1 and trying to pretend that the expertise and end was all that was keeping the 50 up. Per your math example, even 2 would be enough to take the 16,000 first without a loss, see what I mean?

Um. I'm the one that lacks logical thought? Someone tells you that they don't want you at 50 because they prefer playing against good competition and you conclude they must be afraid to play against you in equal levels of gear? Explain that logic to me. Also to nitpick because you're turning into something of a douche, if I "literally" lacked the ability to think logically I would not be able to function as a human being, much less play swtor and post on forums. Finally, what you don't get is that all these battlemasters and the lower tier gladiators such as myself? We're constantly playing against people with our same level of gear or higher now. And enjoying it immensely. I only hit 50 a week ago and I'm having a great time being competitive, somewhat being an underdog, but still contributing greatly. I've topped damage in WZs, I've had my damage quadrupled. I don't hide behind the excuse of gear because I know that what gear I've gotten with minimal effort is more than enough to keep me competitive. If you were smart about saving your commendations levelling up, you get 6 champion bags the instant you hit 50, as well as the daily/weekly bags that are very easy to get. It takes VERY little effort to get to a champion/centurion level at 50, so all that's stopping you is you being too scared to lose your "I'm undergeared, therefore I must be the superior player" veil as you realize the only thing stopping you from competing to the best, is that you're not. And the grounds you keep calling fair? They're not fair. You're going up against players with half your abilities, half your skill points. You are the ultimate hippocrite. Because you have an advantage that you now exploit to do well in WZs and it matches your own perception that you're the ultimate pvper, you deem it fair. Anyone with any sense of your cherished "logic" can tell you that pvp at 50 is MUCH MUCH more balanced than 10-49 now.

Yeah I'm 100% sure he either had a healer, or popped cds that you guys didn't recognize. A level 10 has about 6k less hp than a typical battlemaster, and the battlemaster will have maybe a 10-12% damage reduction over them. The lowbies either didn't have the abilities (not a gear thing obviously), or just didn't know what they were doing. The first warzone I walked into at level 10 I popped a 2.5k crit so it's not like lowbies don't do damage. A battlemaster 2v1ing might be because of gear, even if it's a true 3v1, if you're at least in the 20s, the 3 should win.

See it's how you drew this conclusion that just makes you laughable.

Lol I give up. Why are you guys really so angry that people are battlemasters and you aren't? Point me to a single post with the title "LOL I'M A BATTLEMASTER AND I ROFLSTOMPED THAT LEVEL 20". For a good player, there is no real satisfaction in destroying a much less equipped player. I know if I get a full combo on a level 10, he's gonna die. There's no skill involved. I don't then call him up and tell him how superior of a player I am. That imbalance is why 50s were removed from 10-49, not the imaginary self worth the 50s get afterwards. Btw I have around 400 expertise and that translates to 8.75%. That's all. Those battlemasters that were doing 4x your damage before the change? It wasn't just because of their gear. It was because they had a massive skill AND gear advantage over you. There are battlemasters that put up mediocre numbers as well, but I see you ignore them and point at the top performers who must also just be terrible because they put in the time to get the gear.

If you think that having 4-5 pieces of higher level glad gear than your opponents in WoW that you could get with a month or two ahead gives you an unassailable advantage, or even any kind of significant advantage, then your problem isn't that gear =/= skill, it's that you're personally too afraid of facing someone with any kind of advantage. Look I have no idea who you are and how good you are, for all I know you could be one of the best pvpers in the world, which i doubt because people with those kind of drive typically want to be the best, and sub 50s is about as far away from the top competition level as high school basketball is to the nba, but all I'm arguing here is that the most competitive, most skill based pvp still happens at the very top, meaning 50s. 10-49 is actually massively more unbalanced than just 50 is, obviously less so than 10-50, but gear and skill points and skills makes a gigantic difference. A scoundrel doubles in strength in the late 30s and quadruples upon hitting 40. If you're having a great time down there because you're suddenly at home with the far less competitive play that's really fine. But stop trashing the accomplishments of anyone who's put in the time to obtain the higher level gear. Obviously not everyone who's a battlemaster is a great player. But I would bet that a large majority of the best players are already battlemaster.

Yes they had a numbers advantage, but the best PvPer in the world would still make it up there. The way you're telling it the top tier Glads every season would be the same and that's absolutely not true. Any way you're looking at it, 10-49 is now much more fun, yes, but the level of play in them has also gone way down. If it is more to your level of play, then that's great. Everyone has more fun. But that doesn't mean all the best pvpers in the world are suddnely in this bracket with no gear to differentiate them. I'm a competent pvper, but hardly near the top, but playing on my 26 alt is a faceroll 90% of the time now. There's nothing wrong with more casual players levelling slower than the ones with more time, but trying to pretend that most of the best pvpers aren't already 50 and competing hard in the 50s bracket is the real denial here. Again, the "logic" that you are so fond of dictates that with most of the 50s/good players gone, the lower level players are now more likely to be matched up against fellow casual players of their own level, and not having to deal with gear imbalance. This does not mean you're better players than the 50s with gear, it just means everyone is now having more fun because they're playing against competition at their own level.

Lol. Same qq every mmo. I'm not gonna deny that the 50s needed to be taken away from lowbies brackets, but those people who think that players will gear are skill-less, and that not having to face them now and doing well means that they are in fact, elite pvpers, are kidding themselves. To get to the top tier of "competitive" pvp, you still have to generally be a top pvper, there's plenty of people who can put in the time to get the best "free" gear as it were, so what do you think separates the top tier from all these skill-less noobs as you keep claiming. If you were really among the best, it wouldn't matter to you that people were in battlemaster, because in a few short weeks you'd have their same gear, and according to you, be dominating them right back anyway. I'm in a mix of champion and centurion myself that took just over a week of 1-2 hours a day playing to accumulate, and yes seeing a Battlemaster title makes me play against a player differently, but it by no means makes me unable to compete with them. I've beaten 4 battlemaster premades, and I've lost to 4 battlemaster premades. It is never a foregone conclusion. The top level of pvp will forever involve the top tier of gear, and if you're too scared to try and compete with that, and prefer to hide in the lower levels, that's your perogative. But it by no means takes away from the accomplishments of the top tier pvpers just because they've pushed through the progressions brought about by the mmo. WoW made it extremely easy to get competitive PvP gear, and I'd guess that you didn't break through into that top tier either and found twinking to be more of a test of "true skill" =P I'm not sure what the removal of 50s proves exactly. Is the game much more fun for both 50s and sub 50s alike now? Yes. Is it because 50s with pvp gear all suck at pvp? I'm not even sure how you came to that conclusion. You know what on top of the whole gear thing is going on here right? The vast majority of players who put in the time and effort to be good at mmo pvp have already hit 50 and entered that grind. That's not to say no one that's not 50 is good, but I would hazard to guess that at least 80% of "serious/skilled" pvpers are already 50 one month after release. Now that they're all gone the skill pool is sub 50 is much much diluted. If you feel more comfortable in the pool of largely more casual players and consider your exploits down there as skill then, well I wish you luck and happiness. If you find the secret cache of elite pvpers that vow to never hit 50 for you to compete against more power to you.

So lets say BW implements a new system that says, the faction with the lower number of players will randomly teleport an opposite faction player into their fleet, and this player will be unable to leave for an hour and worth 1000 valor to anyone in the area when they die. You'd be ok with that because the lower pop faction players are still killing a player to earn their valor? I think people blaming imp players for taking advantage of the system are being a little unrealistic. This is after all, Bioware's fault for letting it happen. But to say that this isn't an issue and shouldn't be corrected is extremely shortsighted.

This quote here reminds me of every scammy informercial or "Skin care companies hate this stay at home mother for her $2 wrinkle free secret!" advertisement I've ever seen. Also, you're wrong. And you're somehow trying to smear scoundrels for trying to keep our completely imaginary "very unfair advantage". Not cool dude. Where is this mythical video proof? If you at some point apologize for your misunderstanding we might forgive you.

Well ok then, as the previous poster said. If you're taking away the only thing we're good for, give us all the other tools the other classes have. Scrapper scoundrels don't chain kill from a safe distance, nor continue to hit for those damage numbers for the remainder of the battle. So stop defending gunslingers and warriors just because you can't make yourself prepare for the possibility of having a stealther in the area, and look at things objectively.

But the risk is that you're losing that backblast entirely. Also even if they don't move, the 3-5 second delay on backblast may mean that you lose out on another backblast in the duration of the fight, while sucker punches can essentially be burned at any time. Although the clincher for me here is, does sucker punch really do as much damage as backblasts? My feeling is that they crit for a good 1000 or so less with consumables/red but I don't know for sure.

I just commented on your post in the other thread as well but I thought I'd weigh in here too =) I do shoot first->blaster whip->back blast->sucker punch->sucker punch if I'm just going for full out burst. My philosophy here is that you want to get your cd skills on cd asap, and I put blaster whip first because well, 2% from upper hand on your back blast, + just a little more mileage on the first flechette round. The reason I definitely want backblast at latest third is because on a normal shoot first knockdown recovery that'll guarantee they get hit by that backblast. once they get up, the two sucker punches at the end means that as long as they're still in melee range, they will both land. I have no math to back this as an optimal dps rotation, just feeling, and muscle memory.

imo waiting that long before back blasting is a waste of a critical portion of your burst. Also, cc break aside, waiting that long may also mean that you give up the opportunity to back blast if the opponent has some kind of knockback or even just turns around and roots you in that period of time. while it might be more energy efficient to let the flechette tick I think in pvp burst situations it's better to back blast earlier and get it off cooldown again earlier. I personally shoot first->blaster whip->backblast->sucker punch->sucker punch as my initial burst combo, and while it may not be optimal damage, I find it to be the most reliable and most front loaded, especially if you're not trying to wear down a large hp pool.

I think what's often understated is the power jump you get from gearing up at 50. With just a champion relic a 2-3 other assorted champion/centurion gear, (including a centurion scattergun which probably made a big difference) I went from 3k shoot first crits and feeling mediocre, to 5-7k shoot first crits and feeling overpowered. I'm sure as the 50s bracket materializes and gear evens out it'll find some medium in the middle. The biggest piece of advice I can give any scrapper player is, run away. A lot. If there are more than 2 enemies around and you even start to take heat, don't hesitate, start making your way away from the engagement, blowing your cds if necessary. Unless you are guarded and have a pocket healer you WILL die if enough of them look at you. Your vanish is on such a short cd you should be using it constantly to disengage so you can reengage. Remember you're at your strongest by far coming out of stealth. Even if you're not useless out of stealth, the difference is still phenomenal so you should maximize the time you're coming out of stealth as much as possible. Personally I think this means avoiding aoe, and aoeing where you can, and trying to restrict your fights to a single target that will go down asap, so you can stealth immediately after they die, and pick your next target. So really. When you're a dealer in shady business, there's no shame in running away and hiding. One of my healer friends once told me, I almost never see you to heal you on the field, but when I do, you're usually hurt and hiding in a corner. That sounds pretty smuggler like doesn't it?

I feel that any healer will have a much better time with the level/gear imbalance in warzones, because any amount of healing is often a gamechanger in unorganized pvp, and you're not having to go up directly against a more geared player's stats. Again, whenever they get around to moving 50s into their own bracket, I think you'll find scrappers are just as viable/fun, espcially after 40. As far as pve goes, scrappers will clear much much faster than sawbones, but with much less room for error as you likely found out. The strategy that worked for me is to combine CC, all out offense for you and your companion, and some kiting for golds/champs. Every pull someone should be tranqed. If possible, after your opener, throw in a slice droid for good measure. If there's a silver and multiple standards, tranq the silver. If there's just one standard with a silver/gold, tranq the standard so you can open on the silver fully. Don't forget your cooldowns, they're all so short they're worth using constantly. Especially against tougher mobs, dirty kick on cooldown lets you use flechette->back blast as well as cheap shot. If you find you've messed up a pull, don't be afraid to vanish and try again.

Without even addressing any of the rest of your rant, your point here is that we should be able to easily kill a 50 in pvp gear? Then tell me, what is the point of getting all those pvp purples? The issue here is not with the scrapper, but with Bioware lumping in sub 50s with pvp geared 50s. Bolster will only take you so far, and since no one will generally gear their characters up fully while they're levelling, those 50s have a significant advantage over everyone, not just scrappers. What you are referring to is the scrapper combo. We do lethal damage if we come out of stealth in the correct situations. We are very mediocre when out of stealth. This is the playstyle of the class. I'm sure if you faced opposing players of your same level you'd find this to be true as well. I'm not sure what you're doing in PvE but I've managed to go through the entire class line + planet sidequests around 4 levels under the quest level the entire time just fine. I'd be happy to share tips/experiences with you if you ever allow yourself to believe it's possible even if you were unable to.