Oldgrimm
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Posts posted by Oldgrimm
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Again, you have no clue as to peoples' situations. In the past, I've stopped playing and paying for an MMO because I had no income. I know some who go specific months not playing because they have outdoors events to do with their children. And still yet some others that work 80+ hours per week during Spring and Summer months, off during the Fall and Winter.
And on and on, none of which have ANYTHING to do with the state of the game. So, I reiterate, you have no clue why those hundreds of thousands stopped paying and playing, only your own reasons.
Gz Boy, you figured the reason nr. 102 out, why the people cancelled their subscription.
Now, try reason nr. 1 - 101.
(little hint, read and understand the written criticisms in this forum)
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Though I'm satisfied with the difficulty in TOR and always roll my eyes at those who said "Wrath is to easy" (while posting on toons with no heroic achieves), I have to agree with you about Naxx40. I didn't get to do Naxx40 during Vanilla, but my horde guild during BC went in there as 70's with T5 and up gear just for something different. Let me say, any group of 60's that took that down has my respect! The problem of course, is that it doesn't make good business sense for devs to put alot of work into something that such a small percentage of the population experiences. I don't think TOR Ops are a cakewalk for the average player like some would imply, but If someone is saying TOR Ops are harder than Vanilla WoW's raids...nope, not true by a long shot. Then again, I consider it a good thing that they are not.
True, but I have another theory.
A MMO needs the hardcore fraction. They are the theory-crafters the math crunchers and they give us a good competition.
The hardcore player gives a purpose for the average player. If you cant keep the hardcore player, because your content gets cleared too easy, they get bored and leave.
If a game has no hardcore player, the average player has therefore no competition to beat and gets bored too.
Life is about competition in every way.
Never asked yourself, why the Blizzard games are so successful? They are very easy to learn and everybody can step in fast. But, they also give a hardcore player a good challenge.
Diablo 3 will be a good example for this. (and WoW is too)
SWTOR is too easy, because a dedicated guild of average players can clear the SWTOR nightmare OPs. (And Soa is only a challenge, because this encounter is heavily bugged)
So there was no challenge for the hardcore player in SWTOR. (Yes, I know, that this game was never intended for the hardcore player, but this was the biggest fault in SWTOR made by the developers)
People are constantly looking for a challenge and I dont see this in SWTOR.
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I wonder have you even played the game?
No, I am paying 15$ / month to post in these forums.
Elaborate yourself why SWTOR Operations would not be harder than Vanilla WoW Raids. Personally I can compare my current experiences my experiences in the latter and in those - and up to TBC's raids - my guilds were very succesful. Disappointments, nights that no bosses went down, were rare. In SWTOR I haven't been able to finish either Operation in normal mode. Operation teams from my guild have done so, but none in which I have been, and it hasn't even been close. The one time I took part in a HM Operation was pure slaughter.
So you cleared Naxx40 in vanilla WoW? And you are really holding on to your claim, that normal SWTOR OPs > Vanilla WoW?
Really? Please, because I was in one of the very very few guilds, which cleared Naxx40 (after statistics only 4% of the guilds in WOW cleared the Naxx content in Vanilla) back then and I have to say, that this was the hardest PvE experience I had so far. (And I played WoW in the endgame PvE up until the T11 content)
And the difficulty jump in the SWTOR OPs from normal to HM was not even recognizeable. Only nightmare was slightly harder.
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Haeso, you could bother to look my post up, instead of throwing questions to that guy.
You make adventurous claims, and dont even bother to defend yourself. I find this lack of proper argumentation, mildly amusing.
It is hard to compress the failure of WAR into several sentences.
But, a PvP player is not satisfied only with a "PvP friendly" labeled MMO.
It has to be "PvP friendly" within, in combination with a finished MMO-base and all the little features all of us are accustomed to.
Regarding WAR, yes there was "PvP friendly" within at first. But, the whole MMO-base was missing. Beginning with the outdated (but very hardware needy) graphics, over the plethora of bad design / balance and development decisions and ending with the destruction of the working PvP system.
And because of these wrong decisions WAR failed.
As a dedicated PvP player myself, I can only say, that we very well know, what we want to see in a MMO.
Up until now, the PvP players were treated like the ginger haired stepchild by the MMO-developers and that it the wrong way.
A PvP player wants more, than 3 WZs and a unfinished and uninspired OpenPvP planet and I am glad, that the PvP base at whole shows signs, that we arent that easily satisfied as the developers thought we would.
GW2 will be a next good shot (after I played the Beta weekend) and it will draw the PvP base in.
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Vocal self-described elite raiders whining that they can't experience enough frustration and failure in the end-game doesn't make the end-game easy on any objective standard.
I dont consider myself a hardcore gamer and I experienced this myself.
Comparing what are raids in SWTOR to raids in it's main competition at the same stage of the competitor's development is quite the right thing to do. Especially as SWTOR was intended to bring a lot of new players to MMO genre.
Dont wiggle around. You stated, that the OPs in SWTOR in normal mode, are more difficult, than the Vanilla WoW Raids.
Please, after this adventurous claim, I have to ask you to elaborate.
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It's ridiculous to claim that the end-game is too easy. I can say from experience that it isn't. The Operations for example are in normal mode harder than the raids in vanilla WoW.
1. Why is it ridiculous? Ridiculous is, that you are thinking from your subjective point of view.
Because, there are many people, who burned through the"endgame"-content and stated, that the difficulty level is way to low and is only unwillingly hightened by the plethora of bugs.
2. Normal OPs > Vanilla WoW Raids? Were you even thinking, before you typed this text?
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Then why does DaoC have an estimated 25 000 subscribers, if it's the paradise of PvPers? Why not 250 000? Why isn't Bioware-Mythic doing DaoC 2? Why is WAR almost dead with it's world RvR?
Because PvPers speak one thing and do another.
...who will play an outdated game?
...WAR? Seriously? This is your argumentation?
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Ilum is exactly what I was talking about. BioWare does what the majority asks for. Look at the threads about PvP even now. PvPers can't even decide what they want among themselves. In beta, there were a lot of PvPers saying, "Don't do that, it won't work." However, the MAJORITY of the PvPers in beta asked for exactly what we got on Ilum. I know, I was there. You can't fault a developer for providing something the majority asked for. The only fault I give BioWare is that they should have known better than to do that, because PvPers will never be happy no matter what you do. That's part of their learning curve, and fortunately they learn quickly.
Please, dont make such adventurous claims, because it is slightly problematic to follow your thoughts.
All of the PvP problems were discussed in the beta forums X-times with constructive criticism.
But there was no reaction from BW/EA. So you cant assume, that BW/EA did something on account of the PvP playerbase, because there was no communication.
Because, if BW/EA would have listened to the constructive criticism in the beta forums, the PvP system in SWTOR wouldnt be in its current state.
But thats OK, as a PvP player I wrongly assumed, that SWTOR would be the right game for me.
Most of the PvPer realized or will realize, that they made a wrong choice, and will correct that.
SWTOR will retain its fitting customer base and there will be enough to be profitable. But, honestly they have much work to do, to achieve that.
@DieAlteHexe
I'm sorry my terminology wasnt appropriate relating to my comment on your nick.
Better said: I wrongly assumed that you are german, based on your nick.
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SWTOR offers a great deal to me right now. It also is a new MMO which "suffers" from the very thing that ALL new MMOs suffer from...the devs really not believing how fast people will consume their offering. It happens EVERY SINGLE TIME.
So, whilst it sounds as if you don't think overmuch of the current content and therefore believe that anything coming in the future is going to be equally interesting to you, all I can say is I'm sorry to hear that, and hope you find a game that you enjoy as much as I enjoy this one.
Thats OK, and I see that SWTOR will remain with a healthy subscribtion base to be profitable for EA/BW.
But, as you said, players like me will find their enjoyment elsewhere.
and btw. dont use a german nick .... its misleading
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No one can fix pessimism but the pessimist.
In some definitions pessimism is very close to realism.
I'm not a casual by any means. I play upwards of 8 hours+ a day. And I only have 2 50's. The rest are still up and coming. Legacy level 30. I'm what can be considered a "hardcore" player. I'm in the minority. Most other players are just now reaching level 50. I have a guildie who accomplished his first level 50 just yesterday. BioWare has never EVER hidden the fact that playing all 8 storylines was part of their endgame. In fact, they've highlighted it time and time again. If people come here and don't do the storylines and complain...well, that's on you , not BioWare, because they TOLD you it was part of the endgame.
Hmm... I play(ed) less than half of the time than you and consumed the offered PvE raids and the PvP system quite quickly.
And if they define the endgame to "roll alts until you squeal", its not that healthy. Because many many people dont share the thought on this definition of the endgame.
As for PvP, do you realize that this game launched with EXACTLY what the PvPers asked for in beta? It failed, but don't put all that blame on BioWare. For every PvPer's pointing fingers, there are three more of their own fingers pointed right back at themselves... They're revamping it currently.
Nah, please you make it too easy for yourself. I could fill pages with the wrong choices BW/EA made.
And the worst thing was, that they clearly didnt do what the PvP asked for in beta.
The best argument for this is Ilum.... and my resume is with this one word concluded.
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I...what?
I'm sorry, but that WHOOOOOOSH sound you just heard was that going straight over my achy head.
I try german:
Wenn man in Betracht zieht, was SWTOR bisher anzubieten hatte. Wird man seine Erwartungen an zukuenftige Erweiterungen / Patches und Storyfortfuehrungen dementsprechend anpassen.
Or english:
If you see, how much SWTOR offers to a gamer now. You will moderate your expectations in the future expansions / patches or coming story lines.
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Seriously?
I consider myself an 'average joe' of a gamer and I don't think the game is made for me at all! Never got into PvP or the grouping. Once you hit 50, there's the 'wash, rinse, repeats' of the dailies to do, but that's not nearly enough to keep a causal player like me playing.
I think it's more aimed at the PvP'ers/FP/Raiders.
Believe me... its not.
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The game isn't over yet. That's why you see the "interlude" bit. It is an MMO that has not yet been out six months. Expansions usually take between six months and a year to manifest, bringing a higher level cap, more quests, more content, more raid/PvP etc.
A little analogy there:
You walk into a clothing-shop and check all the available offerings in there.
All you find are outdated and overpriced rags and untasty clothes.
Believe me, if you would walk to the shop-manager and ask him, if he could offer you some clothes of a better quality.
You wouldnt expect him coming out of the storage-room with a Versace suit.
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It's coming. The content has already been written a year in advance for the continuation of all 8 storylines well past 50. Why do you think your screen says "Interlude" at 50? Open war is coming, along with more chapters to our class stories. BioWare has already stated that.
I'm glad, that there are people out there, who are so easily entertained.
But, after 2 content-patches there are some disbelievers, who dont think that these flowery words are in fact the truth.
In the meantime, there's still plenty to do.
And what exactly?
As a dedicated PvP player I already know, that this game wasnt designed for our kind.
For dedicated PvE players, there is not that plenty to do either.
So yes, SWTOR will be a field test for me how many real casual player are out there, because this game is clearly made for the casual Joe.
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Why should SWTOR have been a sandbox game? BW pretty clearly wanted a story-driven MMO and not a sandbox game.
I looked into Archage and thought "yeah, this could be the game some folks have been looking for". I hope it is and I hope those who are looking forward to it finally find their "home" like so many of us have here.
In the leveling process I can see clearly, that SWTOR is a story driven MMO. But please help me, where is this "story driven" after reaching the lvl-cap?
Your argument is valid, but on the long term the Lvl50 content, is the content what matters most.
And I could be too pessimistic, but I dont see much of a story driven MMO in the endgame.
Or is it the purpose in SWTOR to play all the 8 storylines to lvl 50?
What comes then?
OK, we could count the idea of a story driven MMO as an innovation, but the final implementation failed.
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I'm going to agree with this too. It adds a dimension that was missing in the click/read/click-again/go-forth questing in other games. It makes the world seem more rich to me.
I have to say I am honestly surprised by the number of people who do not like the VO parts. So many people complained in other games about having to read too much stuff.
We just can't be pleased, can we. Heh.
Everything a question of personal taste.
Full VO in a MMO? Great idea.
But! It is only a fancy feature, which entertaines for a short while and gets even annoying in the endgame. After that every gamer looks on the core features.
And these have to work flawlessly, if a developer want his MMO to be successful.
In this question SWTOR failed hard as AOC / WAR and many other did.
Core mechanics in MMOs have to evolve, to keep the playerbase entertained.
The quicker the lethargic developers and publishers learn that, the better.
(At least some of the smaller developer companies realized it)
WoW was new (for most of the people, who made their first step into the MMO genre with WoW) and was released at the right moment with the right idea / franchise / developer.
They took the ideas from previous MMOs + the ideas of the current competition + added a little fluff and the people (me included) liked it.
But back then the MMO genre was new to most of the players. Even the already used mechanics appeared new and fresh.
Now its 2012 and there are voices everywhere, that the playerbase wants something new / fresh / innovative and they voice their critisism mostly as "another WoW-clone".
Lastly:
For SWTOR it is not too late to fix the problems with the core mechanics / up a little bit the server hardware and do some healthy sever merges to retain a playerbase around 1-1,5 m. subscribers.
At the moment they have to work hard to be at least remembered as a mediocre MMO.
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Because the game is almost fully voice acted except for the random text-based mission console, that's not innovative? And clearly games DON'T have to innovate. Modern Warfare 3 is a reskinned Modern Warfare 2, which was also a reskinned Modern Warfare, and people continue buying those games even though they're the exact same experience. So no, if a game mechanic isn't broken, why fix it? I'm glad other games like Monopoly, poker, or even chess have changed so much over the past decades or centuries. But you're right. I mean, you have an opinion on the Internet, so it's automatically valid.
The VO is quite a fancy way to deliver a quest text, nothing more. Its not an innovation or a new mechanic to change the game.
Quite frankly, the VO was a fault, because the resources were wasted for it and were needed in all the other game parts, who are seriously lacking in SWTOR.
Of which importance is the VO in the endgame (which keeps normaly an MMO alive)?
And lastly, dont compare the evolution of the shooter genre with the MMO genre. 2 whole different matters.
And shooter do evolve there, where the it matters most for the gamers.
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Yes, the sub-numbers are dwindling.
But it is nothing new, if the numbers of ghost servers are growing.
The problem in SWTOR is not the problem of the MMO genre.
The current problems are custom made by the developing and publishing companies.
I know, that new ideas / mechanics or whole gaming systems cost money , are risky (because nobody knows how the customer will react) and take time to develop.
Now we can clearly see, that BW/EA went the "save" way too, and developed a game with little to 0 innovation.
They decided to keep to the standard and give the customerbase a game with already known mechanics.
(known mechanics =! WoW clone)
Problem is, that a gamer expects a genre to make an evolution.
AOC tried that once with an innvative combat system (but failed to deliver everything else)
Aion tried it with 3D fightting in the air (the same failure like AOC)
a.s.o.
So the lesson the big companies learned, is not, that they have to be innovative and deliver a finished product.
No, they learned, that new ideas are risky and it is the safer way to keep to the ol'good standards.
Problem is, that after one decade of little to 0 evolution in the MMO genre, the gamerbase is tired of the same ol'mechanics.
And I'm glad, that SWTOR will fail on the long run too, because the big companies have to learn it the hard way, that they have to take risks and develop new / fresh and innovative gaming mechanics to stay alive.
If you are one of the ol'generation of MMO players, who are happy with no evolution in the MMO genre, thats OK. But I'm relieved, that a good portion of the gamerbase is showing with their wallets, that the MMOs have to evolve, to be successful in the future.
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Something to keep in mind here, Geeluc. Many people say they will leave and do not. They hop into the HaterMobile and don't want to look like they aren't going along with the herd publicly. If you watch, you can catch a fair good amount of folks who "quit" that really didn't or re-subbed.
So just saying...doesn't necessarily mean much. Will be interesting to see what the next sub. report shows.
Too optimistic ... there are 3 types of "leavers" here:
1. Makes the 95% of the leavers: They push silently the "cancel subsription" button and are gone.
2. The classic forum "trolls" (honestly I'm one of them): They are about to leave but spent too much on the gaming time and are seeking some entertainment for the last spent bucks in the forums.
3. The positive leavers: They have no intention to leave this game, because they like it somehow or they see a speck of potential.
So they launch the forum cruise missile with the "I'm leaving" dramas to catch the attention of the developing team.
But dont be so euphoric, because there are some indicators, that the next annuncement of the active subscription numbers wont be that much of a blast for EA/BW.
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What proof would you require, cos i aint givin my name and date of birth out on the forums. What facts would you like, that half the original dev team apart from the head guys were moved from wow when they were half way through tbc creation, that most of them walked out and created hellgate and the others were put onto titan all of whom have just been fired from titan.
Once again, without the slightest proof, nobody will take your adventurous claims serious. So I can tell you that they will only reap some laughters, nothing more.
So yes there are a few things i dont like but i know a good game when i see it, a game that only requires a bit more work and some more content with possibly a few more features. But they have shown us whats coming, and gave us a glimpse of what they are working on.
You see potential in this game, thats fine.
But I'm on the other side, where I see a game which requires a complete overhaul.
I could begin with the poor engine, which is not suited to be used in an MMORPG.
Or at least this engine should be optimized to be much less resource hungry.
We could go over the planet-design, which repeats itself with the same tunnel -> little hub -> tunnel pattern. (not very benefical for the MMO feeling in an MMO)
Continiuing with the planet design, which devides the playerbase in many little instances, which further kills the MMO feel.
And the PvP ... o jeah... thats there the "fun" begins for a designated PvP player , like me.
I could fill pages with criticism, but most of the people in these forums will take the point.
Endgame ... yes it is the endgame, which keeps an MMO alive on the long term and especialy there this game lacks. I could only compare the problems in SWTOR with AOC.
And the biggest problem is, that BW/EA completely misunderstood the concept of an MMORPG.
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Jealousy doesnt become you.
You know, you are only digging the shame hole deeper. Please dont make such adventurous claims without the slightest proof.
You can have your position in favor for SWTOR, but please, do it at least more professional with some real arguments with real facts from the real life.
And no, the pink flying dumbo in your room is not real.
There are people, who like this game and the offered entertainment is enough to keep them subscribed. But there are people, like me, out there, who want to see something new / fresh or at least inovative. A year 2012 MMO with a working engine and a competent developing team.
But SWTOR is sooo 2004... and you know... we already have a smooth working 2004 version offered by the competition.
So... how will be this singleplayer "MM"ORPG remembered?
It will be remembered as a "MM"ORPG with a developing team, which had the wrong definition of the term MMORPG.
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So once the trolls go back under there bridge or back to wow ( which ever is closest) this game will have major less negativity, and there are way more then enough left over if 50% of the playerbase leave right now to make a solid base for the game and from there it shall grow no matter how much the haters hope it aint soo.
so who knows, in ten years it could be the best or just another one of the top AAA mmos. But it will be profitable, the starwars name kept swg profitable even though it was trashed three times by soe.
I like optimistic people, because they are so easily entertained.
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My attitude? I think I've been rather constructive in my responses actually. But if you think so, how about this - I work on my "attitude issues" and you work on not presenting your made up facts as actual facts, and maybe people will take us both seriously in the end?
Please give me a quote, where I exactly stated my opinion as a fact.
You know, only people with a very weak argumentation are using this word inflationary.
The game is truly bleeding subs then? We can all trust you on this?
If you look at the statistic, and see a steady decline in player activity, it could mean something.
A person with a capable mind could form an opinion about the current state of this game, from these numbers.
And after seeing 3 servers going from healthy to ghost with my own eyes, I formed my opinion, that the customerbase is not very satisfied with the offered entertainment in SWTOR.
And following that, everyone knows, what a unsatisfied customer does, right?
Why? To someone like me that wouldn't have to be the case at all.
So, this game is really made for people like you. Thats OK then.
But looking at the EA company policy over the last years, this move doesnt fit.
Because EA got for the year 2012 this award:
http://consumerist.com/2012/04/congratulations-ea-you-are-the-worst-company-in-america-for-2012.html
And they dont make that quick a 180* turn now from the common EA company policy we all are used to.
Sorry my belief in the good of the people is not so strong as yours.
I see EA/BW constantly working to maximize their profits. This move costs them millions and it should have a reason why they did that.
Could it be, that their statistics could go with my opinion, that they are losing subs and they try to hold the players longer until this game reaches a condition, which we call "ready for release"*?
Or at least hold the grumpy PvP base a little longer after the 1.2. disaster?
* It means, that this game is outfitted with all the needed core features, the MMO players are accustomed to since 2004.
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And now this. I take issue with whatever I want, thanks. If you feel the thread gets derailed and off topic, you report it to a moderator. A bloke said the game was dying. I don't think it is. That's the extent of my involvement right now. Tough for the people stuck on low pop servers, but apart from my sympathies, I don't wish to get involved in that particular debate. I wanted to talk about the post I originally quoted. That's it.
You know first of all, you should adjust your attitude, because with this lacking enunciation of yours, nobody will take you seriously.
Secondly, the death of a thousand papercuts was ment as an analogy to the glaring problems in this game.
This game is not dying in the classic term, but it is truly bleeding subs.
Here at : http://www.torstatus.net/ you can check the server population trend.
Yes, James Ohlen has the most accurate statistics, but torstatus will be accurate enough to get a whole picture of the situation in SWTOR.
(And no, there are not only some ghost servers)
Lastly I will mention one thing.
To someone like me, the 30 day free-play time is a sign of clear desperation. They wouldnt introduce this gift, if this game would do fine in terms of healthy subscription numbers.
Subs down 25%
in General Discussion
Posted
It is very easy to understand under normal circumstances.
Decreasing player activity is linked to the subscription numbers and I think the last months confirmed this theory.
If the player activity would have dropped ~50% from launch, it would be an indicator for a chilled playerbase.
It is perfectly normal, that in the first month of an MMO there are loads of players, who play twice the time they normally would.
But, according to very reliable statistics, the player activity dropped way more, than these healthy 50%.
Furthermore, this proves, that many players stopped to play SWTOR and this means, that they cancel their subscription.
So you see? This is not that hard to understand... and please dont start with your "above the curve" argument.
Because ....
Out of ~2,4mil sold copies remained 1,3mil active subscriptions. Total loss of players 54%
(not to forget, that there are many nominal members because they are at the moment , thanks to this free month, active in the subscription statistics (I'm one of these nominal members))