R2-D2 has always been my favorite Star Wars character. And Kenny Baker had a lot to do with that. This is a sad day for Star Wars fans.

Being a Jedi means following the light side. If you have to become the thing you are fighting in order to stop it, you have lost. What good is it to save the galaxy from the dark side if I have to fall to the dark side (or semi-fall to it) in order to win? History has shown plenty of times that this is equally a loss -- it just take a little longer to get there. Anakin made the choice you are suggesting, accepting the dark side along with the light, trying to balance it so he could save Padme'. How'd that turn out for him? I recall to you the discussion between Luke and Yoda on Dagobah in ESB. Luke wants to leave Dagobah to try and save Leia and Han, and what does Yoda say? He says, if you leave now, help them you could, but you will destroy all for which they have fought. When Luke asks should he just let them die then, Yoda answers, if you honor what they fight for, yes. Sometimes the principle is what matters. No, I haven't. In every battle with Arcann, I beat him on the game mechanics, but before I could finish him, BW stepped in and effectively ganked me with a cutscene. My character was more powerful than Arcann EVERY TIME in terms of the actual game mechanics. And lots of people have pointed out that you can win the ch. 16 battle without the magic grey-side weapon -- some on purpose some because they forgot to equip it until it was too late. You don't need it. You can beat him without it. And I have. Repeatedly. You're just proving my point, that BW decided Grey Side > all, and tries to force you to be grey side. They don't allow any other choice. In this expansion about choices mattering. So you got lucky, and the narrative they forced on you just so happened to fit in with your character's personality. Great! I can see why you liked it, because you were playing a sith who apparently had grey-side tendencies all along. I have a trooper and a BH like that, so this story might have fit better for them. It did not fit my main Consular at all, however.

I denied his power each and every single time. My Consular, pure light side, has rejected both V-man and Satele and every effort BW has made to get her to accept either darkness or greyness. She has suffered ZERO negative consequences. She's in perfect health, she has accomplished all her missions, destroyed all but one of the SFs (that I haven't gotten to yet), acquired all the henchmen I care to recruit (NOT going to do the one you have to PVP to get, since I don't do PVP and refuse to be forced into it), and is standing on Odessen safe and sound and in perfect health at the end of chapter 16. So what are the consequences of denying the Snark-man's powers? I have had none. Of course, I haven't *actually* been able to deny his power, because the cutscenes show that I have them even though my character has said 'no' to them every.single.time. But then, that is what people are complaining about... you make a choice and the game ignores it and tells the story as scripted.

^^^ This. This is what I am talking about. I did both of those things... said I am still a Jedi, I reject the grey BS, and told Valkorian at every possible chance I had to get out of my head, I am not listening to him. I almost always did what he told me not to do. Time and again he 'greatly disapproved.' Total impact on the storyline? Zero. You are a grey side Force wielder in this story. Period. All attempts to be otherwise are blatantly ignored by the game, the dialogue, the companions, etc. They sometimes pretend to give you a choice to adhere to the light or dark side, but after you make the choice, the companions or Satele or someone tells you that was the wrong choice and the story goes on as if you had done the grey side thing anyway.

Then they need to write a story that wouldn't NEED those two branches. This is the basic problem. Knowing they didn't have the money to write two full expansions, they should have done the entire story-line differently. You get actual choices to kill people or not kill them in the class stories but the overall class story does not change in terms of the big picture. And the world stories also give you occasional choices, but the total world story still comes out the same way. Neither class nor world stories seem as forced, despite my repeated play-throughs of them (well, the world ones -- I've not done any class more than once) as KOTFE does. So, it is possible to write a fundamentally non-branching story (see, for example, the Gree storyline on Coruscant), but still have the occasional choice matter, and still have it not feel 100% forced.

Why would I need a 'new' lightsaber if I reject their teachings? Why wouldn't I believe my own is good enough? Also, and this is the key point, the game after this chapter proceeds as if you have accepted the grey side... there is no difference in the story if you accept or reject the grey side premise.

Maybe for Dark Side you could, perhaps, make this argument. However, for a Light Sider, which is what the only character I am taking through this awful storyline happens to be, absolutelyshe would be 'a complete idiot' as you put it -- she would, without hesitation, at the risk of her own life, stay behind and try to save Arcann (because that is the choice I made -- offer him a chance at redemption rather than kill). Because my Jedi Consular is a HERO. She has been a hero all along. This it he problem. The game puts you in a position to be a hero, and then drops the ball by making YOU run and giving Senya the hero role. And for Senya it's not even all that heroic since she's just a mommy saving her wittle baby boy. For YOU, as both a stranger to Arcann and the person he tried to kill repeatedly, saving him from that wreckage would be massively heroic, and for my Light Sider, 100% in character. So of course, BW doesn't let me do it. I mean how hard would it be for them to have filmed a different ending for that cut scene, just putting my toon, instead of Senya's toon, in the animations to get him out of the rubble, and then have Senya come along, chase Vaylan off, and then say to the Outsider, 'Go... I'm his mother. I will make sure Arcann gets off this ship in one piece.' But again, they didn't bother to do that, because they don't care about OUR story... only Arcann's (and Vaylan's).

What's even sadder is, YOU didn't achieve that. The NPCs did that. You just watched the cutscenes while they did it.

You can, and I did. But they end up forcing you to accept it anyway, in the long run. You can't just walk away from the 'training' and go back to Odessan and fight your own way. You HAVE to make the magic weapon... the story won't complete otherwise.

This. So very much this.

This is the part I find so completely objectionable about KOTFE. The grey side option is literally 'the end justifies the means.' For someone who has played a pure light-side character, this is frankly not acceptable. My character would die before giving up the light side and going grey. Except you can't even do that, because nothing in the story can kill you. There is such a thing as principles... as ethics. Satele's position now that she has 'grown' is that you should abandon your principles to just get the effing job done. That is not something a light sider would do. It reminds me of an old quote from Asimov's Foundation series -- 'never let your morality prevent you from doing what is right.' That may be one way to look at it, but it's not the only way. So much in that chapter I wanted my pure light Jedi master to school Satele on the light side, on how it is the right way, the better way. To reject her teaching and say 'I am sticking with the Jedi code. Keep your grey side and your magic weapons. My regular lightsaber and light side powers are good enough. And if they're not, then I'll die with dignity and with my morality intact.' The Zakuul knights use both light and dark? They'll learn, when they face my Light-sular, that the dark is making them weaker. I will win, and do it the right way. Or if not, then I will go down swinging. But always light. But you cannot take that position. BW does not allow it. They decide, a priori, that the only way to progress in this story is not to choose light, dark, or grey... but to go grey, or go home. And before anyone says otherwise, let me state categorically here that if they gave you the choice, and warned you that if you stay light side your character will die, permanently, and be taken out of the game, I would have taken that option. But, no, the only option is (a) keep playing the story, or (b) stop playing the story. Having your character actually DO the light-side thing is not allowed. Turning grey is not simply 'character growth;' for some characters it represents a complete abandonment of their character concept and personality. At no point in any other story anywhere in the game have I been forced to do that -- to violate the concept I have for my character. A choice that fits has always, prior to this, been available. Not so now. Now it is grey side or bust. Be pragmatic and Machiavellian or fail. And sure my BH and Trooper would gladly do that. But none of my other characters would.

Actually, it is clearly written for a grey-sider, not light or dark. Which is why both players of pure light and pure dark characters keep complaining about it. Yup, exactly. My angelic pure-light Jedi Consular offered redemption to Arcann. He did not take it but he got buried. She would not just walk away. She would do what Senya did, or try to, and if Senya could do it, my character, who is far more powerful than Senya, could have. I said this on another thread, but the way they did it ruined both the 'kill him' and the 'spare him' choices. If you choose 'kill him' your character is too stupid to check for a pulse and cut his freaking head off just for good measure, so you don't actually kill him. If you choose 'spare him' he gets buried anyway, you do nothing to help him, and his mommy comes along to save him when you just walked away. So even if you go light side, such as it is, you can't actually do the thing you choose. Yes, and as I have said here and elsewhere, this is why I say that Arcann, and not the player character, is the protagonist. This is a story about HIM, not about YOU. Yes. This is against the rules of GameMastering 101. The writers either have never been GMs, or have only ever been bad ones.... because only bad GMs make the story about the NPCs rather than about the characters. It's a complete rookie mistake. The BW writers come across as total amateurs with the KOTFE storyline.

Fair enough. But surely the new crew could have played through the world stories, taken notes, and tried to do something similar.

Actually it's worse than that. If you choose the option to kill Arcann, he survives. But if you choose the option to NOT kill him, you don't really spare him either. The cut-scene has him be buried under a pile of debris, so I sat there thinking, why did they ask me if I wanted to spare him when they knew I could not? Later mommy dearest saves him, sure, but he's not alive because *I* spared him... he's alive because *she* did. Having decided to spare him, when he was caught in the cave-in, why didn't my character rush up and use her mega-Force powers, which are now even more powerful than his, to get him out of there? Senya was able to do it. I know I'm more powerful than she is, so why couldn't I do it? So... not only can't you kill him when you choose to kill him... you don't actually spare him when you choose to spare him either. Both decisions are taken out of your hands -- the cutscene happens regardless of what you choose. So why even give me the choice? (I don't think I even got any light side points for it -- not that I needed them.)

The irony of it all is that they managed to make world stories on every planet for both factions which were class-neutral and entirely logical for each and every class to do. Many world stories had light/dark choices and elements of them (though not the main plot) could end in slightly different ways (you give the medicine to the military or give it to the sick kids, etc.). I don't understand why they didn't apply the skills they used in creating, e.g., the Taris world story or the Balmorra world story to making a similarly class-neutral story for KOTFE. It can be done, and they have done it before, and done it well... so this really is not asking too much.

They seemed like they were *really* trying to get me to accept V-man as having turned over a new leaf. I did not. I do not. He cannot just mass murder and butcher whole worlds full of people and then say 'Do over!' and have me accept him. First chance I get to kick him the eff out of my character's head, he's gone. Sadly, I will not get that chance, as BW decided you were going to team up with him from Day 1, that is the plot, and there is no way to get away from it. Just like they decided you were going to let Arcann live no matter what... let Scorpio betray you no matter what... let Senya come along on the attack no matter what... etc.

This is the key. They hyped 'choices matter' to the stars, but then they only mattered a little bit here and there, and paled in comparison to the consequences of Arcann's choices. Which is why I say he, not your character, is the protagonist. If they had just said KOTFE was a good strong story about V's family, and that it was linear and non-branching -- well, a lot less people would have been interested but at least it would have been honest. I'm not sure people are really angry that choices didn't matter much per se, but rather, they're angry that BW claimed choices would matter more than ever, more than in the main game, in this expansion... and they mattered FAR less.

Oh I do not disagree with you. I was NOT defending BW saying 'you guys are all wrong, KOTFE is fine, you just didn't understand you are not the protagonist.' I agree with you 100%. They said WE were the protagonist and OUR choices matter, but the story was that HE is the protagonist and our choices are irrelevant compared to his. That is BAD storytelling in a RPG... as I have said elsewhere, it is a n00b error made by first-time GMs. BW should know better. You never, EVER, make the NPC the star of the adventure. It's not just bad form -- it's horrible form. I was just trying to explain the deeper reason behind why the choices didn't matter. It's not just that BW made a game saying choices would matter and then didn't let them matter... there is a REASON why the choices didn't matter, and that's because this is Arcann's story, and not yours, so his choices matter, and not yours. They did this because if it's HIS story, they only had to make ONE. If it's YOUR story, as someone said above, and you can make real choices, then they need branching story lines, additional voice acting, and a bunch of other stuff they don't want to budget for. So they made up the story of Arcann, and then told us it was our story to fool us. And since the change is very subtle especially early on, unless you're really paying attention, you might not notice. It took me 16 chapters to realize it, and I'm no dummy when it comes to GMing and making up adventures and stuff. I mean, a lot of it 'felt' wrong, especially all the cut-scenes about Arcann and Vaylan that I should not have witnessed because my character was not there, but I didn't really put it together until 16. So yeah... I am not disagreeing with you. Nor am I defending BW. I think them putting out a story claiming it was all about us, when they really made it all about Arcann and Arcann's stupid family, was equivalent to a bait-and-switch.

I suppose having the NPC be the protagonist could, in other situations, work, though it is generally not advisable in any RPG, table top, single player CRPG, or MMORPG. However, in the current situation it does not work for several reasons. First, in the entire rest of the game, our PC is the protagonist. The class story revolves around you. You do major things to affect the turning of empires and republics. Even in world stories, you are the protagonist. Your character makes decisions that result in changes and consequences. Just last night, my level 22 trooper did a mission where she was supposed to save a senator. He's a jerk, and saving him would have made her job harder, so she let him die. There were consequences, though not big ones -- Aric did NOT like it, and the general dressed her down. In this story, the trooper is the protagonist, and clearly so. True for all class stories. So they are taking a bunch of players used to having their character be the protagonist, and changing it up on them. We're not used to it, so it doesn't 'feel' right compared to the rest of the TOR stories. Second, they misrepresented KOTFE. They did not tell us it is a story about Arcann and we are just along for the ride. (That they did not tell us clearly demonstrates that they know they shouldn't have done it that way -- if they just didn't realize, they would have said it and then been surprised by backlash.) They told us the opposite -- that it was all about OUR choices when that is a lie -- it was about ARCANN'S choices. Third, they executed the story badly. It was already shaky as a story, and then they did things like, only provide grey-side options... force decisions on you that most non-grey characters would not make, etc. So not only did they take most choices away, but the ones they provided felt forced and very out-of-character. Let me not get started on the stupidity of some things they make you do. Again when you are used to having reasonable/good choices that fit your character, being forced into out-of-character as well as DUMB choices, it is just not going to fly. If they had done all this on a stand-alone Star Wars game for your tablet as a $9.99 app, I think it would have worked and possibly (other than the character stupidity) may have been fairly well received. But they didn't... the grafted it onto a game that was fundamentally different. They took a player base used to being the protagonist, making choices that made sense, and seeing at least some basic consequences of those choices (like killing the senator and being dressed down) and gave us a game where the NPC is the protagonist, at most ONE choice (the one leading to Koth's defection) matters, and even the fake choices they give you are stupid and often non-sensical. Yeah, that's not gonna work. I don't know why they didn't see this from a mile away.

Maybe so. But I think that it is a real shame that they decided to do a grey-only story and not really let you be a true light or dark side character.

Yeah I guess that's true since most of the choices are STUPID, and I bet most of us did not play DUMB characters.

I've said this elsewhere. I actually don't mind that choices don't matter much -- if the choices we had, such as they are, were more in-character. But I feel like in the few instances they gave me choices, my in-character answer to all the options was 'none of the above' -- my character wouldn't do ANY of that. The #1 reason for this, is that they made all the choices shades-of-grey rather than light/dark. There are few true dark or true light options at all. At least in the rest of the game pre-KOTFE the true light/dark options existed. The other thing I'd say is this: I don't mind the story being highly linear and non-branching if the story is actually any good. KOTFE wasn't. My character did stupid things (outside of my control) too many times. BW took control via cutscene and *made* me do something dumb, like walk away from the cave-in on the ship bridge without making sure Arcann was dead (basic rule: unless you *see* the body you can't be sure he's dead). Made me 'trust' SCORPIO when I, the player, definitely did not. Made me take Senya along when my wise Jedi character would *never* have agreed to that. If they wanna force it, OK... then at least force it in a way that my character seems semi-intelligent. The things they had us do throughout the KOTFE story were often so darn stupid I didn't even want to keep playing.

This. While I was playing ch. 16 last night I was texting a friend who had played it earlier in the day. One of the complaints I had was that 'they are forcing my character to be an idiot.' Too many times, even when they gave you a couple of choices, none of them were very intelligent. Every betrayal was obvious from a mile away. Why couldn't my character, who is a Jedi and possesses precognitive powers, see it when I, the player, could?

It did not hit me until finishing Chapter 16, and someone here in another thread or maybe this one saying that NPCs made choices that mattered more than our characters did. Then as I thought about which NPC's choices mattered, and how much screen time Arcann has in cutscenes that do not even include our characters, I realized, waaaait a second.... HE is the main character here.

I've already decided that I am not taking my other PCs through KOTFE at all. I'll get them through Makeb, which is the last of the content I actually liked... and then if they are not 65 yet (they probably will be), I'll have to decide what to do to cap them, and then they get retired. I have no desire to experience this storyline a second, third, fourth, etc., time (unlike most of the other game stories which I do enjoy repeating, like the Revanite story arc on DK).