Let me ask you did you actually read it or did you just cherry pick my response? I said very clearly when mentioning skills I meant skills, powers and or abilities. Now you mentioned COH and that was my first as well and I remember it fondly. Since you mentioned that then I'm sure you can agree that you had primary and secondary abilities or SKILLS if you prefer that you could pick from and customize the character you make as your own. The hand wringing you mentioned I believe had a lot to do with the infamous ED nerf ( enhancement Diversification) which did create a major backlash and led to the rise of a build. You also mentioned SWG as you put it changed from a skill based system. Now talk to a SWG player and they will tell you how much they loathed Sony for changing the system which as many described it as a giant sand box. It offered quite a bit in terms of depth of crafting and classes such as beast tamer and Terass Kasaii. I don't feel as if it is wishful thinking to suggest with an expansion, which was the main thrust of my post allowing a player to pick and choose Skills or powers and abilities if you prefer so that they feel as if not only is the character they make unique to them but the game experience is a well. A major upswing to this idea is if you pick powers in a rotation you hate, you have no one to blame but yourself. Now if what you are saying is that you're fine with playing the premade character that a dev made for you then that is fine, simply say that you prefer that rather than zero in on one thing I mention and not even the entirety of what I said at that as the focal point of your argument.

When I say skills I mean powers and or abilities as a whole. I believe wow lets you pick and choose skills but since I don't play that, EVER I'll stick to what I do know. COH (City Of Heroes(let you pick skills or powers as they were called, you had primary and secondary abilities. Your primary were you attack based abilities and your secondary functioned more as support but it depended on the class. If your were a blaster (WOW analogue archer) your primary was your ranged damage while your secondary were more melee based. If you were a tank your primary was attack while secondary was the defense and damage mitigation. I can go on but I think you get my point. Then there is DCUO (DC Universe Online) Depending on what the player picks it fucntions more or less the same, you have two power trees to pick and choose from as well as an optional third called iconic abilities that a player can pick as well. Then there is Champions Online, Star Trek Online that gives these same options. In a recent post someone mentioned Rifts and the various skill trees players can pick and choose from. A tank for example can pick some healing abilities or DPS. I believe Lord of the Rings offers something of the same as well but since I have not played that I'm not 100 percent sure. So considering it has been done, several times I fail to see how my thought is wish filled and since I mentioned several examples, Including WOW I think this thread/ conversation can continue on:D

Can you pick and choose abilities in this game or is it preset to open based on level? How many choices do you have in skill selection? Granted you have skill trees, 3 of which you can choose from but the developers of Bioware themselves said they didn't want players attempting to choose from multiple trees as to create a jack of all trades or a hybrid so you are relegated to one tree and a one size fits all template. That is not character customization or the illusion of uniqueness when you can encounter a dozen or so players with the same thing. Now that is not to say that wouldn't happen if there were power pools to choose from. On COH it led to the rise of builds, which also is the standard of many MMO's but as a player you can choose to follow it or choose to go your own way which is a thing you cannot do in this. I fail to see how you would call giving players the ability to pick and choose skills and abilities according to their preference and play style that creates a unique experience to them a neurosis, especially when it is something (until this game) I would have thought standard in MMO'S. I like having a selection of abilities to choose from and picking rather or not I'll take it when it opens and with that selection playing how I choose to play rather than how a dev thinks I should based on their own play style.

I don't disagree with your 2 cents. I'll clarify to include digital expansion as well as box. It was pretty much what I meant although I would prefer to have an actual hard copy rather than a digital download. It's just my thing

How about an actual discussion rather than a smart assed reply lacking in any intelligent, constructive feedback ? It's obvious you can type but can you put together something that resembles intelligent discourse rather than a 1 liner ?

For starters I meant unique to you the player and MMO'S (At least the one's I play, other than this) Allow players to pick and choose skills and abilities. I think that is fairly standard in an MMO.

The game mechanics aren't fine, there are some real flaws with it and other points where it is generic at best. Exactly how are my points out in left field exactly? What have I said that deviates from the idea of an expansion that addresses some of the mechanics and elevates the game ? I've also talked to a number of players that would love more classes and during beta the topic of more classes was discussed several times. I also mentioned in responses the idea of new classes and planets, like new classes starting on new and different planets. I don't disagree with you that players want devs that fix things or new planets but new classes or better spaceship battles and engine I don't think would be objected to either

You are absolutely right, they do offer race, hair color, eye color, etc, but they do not offer the most basic customization that most MMO'S do which is the ability to make a character with skills and abilities you pick. They do not offer the player the ability to play in a style that is unique to the player. Right now all players play in a manner that is comfortable for the devs, we are playing the way they would play but not how we would. Having the most basic customization, the ability to pick and choose skills and powers from pools or trees would allow us to customize game play to our individual style and pick powers we think best synergize with both play style and other skills and abilities. Right now all we have are 3 different skill trees which Bioware has stated repeatedly they don't want players picking from other trees to make hybrids, so even in that we are limited to 1 skill tree because if we choose from the others we run the risk of gimping our characters. And for the record I wasn't expecting SWG when I bough this, I was expecting KOTOR where you could pick and choose abilities and make your jedi unique.

A little combative and extreme in some assessments but you do make some valid point. I think the F2P system needs to be changed, its more of a middle finger to players rather than an enticement to make people sub. I also think they charge too much like 6000 cartel points for buying a cluster of packs which comes to around $40 in real money. The barbershop is a big annoyance to me. I feel players should be able to spend in game credits as opposed to real life money to re customize their character and as a subscriber we shouldn't have been charged for what most MMo's provide as a standard in the game. I will say this with regards to sub drops, it is normal when a game releases to have a huge sub boom and a corresponding drop. There are people buying the game and trying it out and then after the newness wears off they either move on (which makes for sub drops) or they stick around, or become on and off again subbers. I'm Not saying this is the sole reason for subs dropping but it is a contributing factor. Also the game didn't fail, it made EA its money back in roughly 2-3 months of release so what followed after is pure profit and it has made a nice profit. The reason why in some ways it was considered a failure is because they rather wrongfully set it up to be a WOW killer and they fail to realize that wow is an outlier, not the standard

I say there aren't enough people like me voting in America. If there were then more people would be willing to admit their error rather than just doggedly sticking to it and pretending they are right when they are not and voting for people like Mit Romney. So I'll concede GW2 to you. I should have said City of heroes and the big commercial template that every MMO copies, WOW. WOW has had multiple expansions like the Lich King and most recently WOW Kung Fu Panda. City of heroes had the City of Villains expansion and multiple out of the box expansions that players had to buy. Now if you have a difference of opinion that is fine, attack the merits of the point's I make , if there are flaws in my logic then by all means point them out but don't impugn my intelligence with personal attacks.

I suppose it could be considered an expansion just chopped up as you say but I remember Dragon Age by Bioware. When they dropped Lilia's (forgive my spelling) song or the other packs they called it DLC. They dropped at least 3 of these and each was DLC that you could buy or not but if you did they added a new aspect, a depth to the bigger story as a whole. So using Bioware's own standard what we are getting is DLC

I have to agree with annabethchase. I don't think Gamers are crazy. I do think this game offers great story telling in a way that has not been done in an mmo before and is indicative of Bioware's story telling prowess however the game play and customization is generic at best. I don't think it is nuts to want them to raise the game play to the level of story telling or add new classes and start off planets for those classes. The idea with an mmo is that it is supposed to get better with time, in this case since this was BioWare's first this should have been a learning experience that they now have a grasp on . I will comment on the server thing though, the complaint with server merges was chiefly that this game runs on an engine that has problems with high volume which leads to lagg and other issues. I can't speak for everyone but I don't mind a high populated server so long as I'm not disconnecting at very inopportune moments or experiencing annoying lag spikes. Now I can't agree or disagree with you on the game play aspect because Bioware hasn't done much to improve it, so I would also ask that you reserve opinion on that until or if they do.

As the original poster would say you should read the entire post. They are not extolling the virtues of Rift or trying to convert SWTOR players to rift. It is simple a post chronicling where they feel this game went wrong and some of the things rift did right in hopes that the devs get it through their skulls what they can do to improve the game experience. I think one of the things Bioware really did right was the story. It's the main thing the has kept me but now its time to create game play that matches the story telling and add things like more immersive crafting, more classes or even classes with alternate story point beginnings but the idea is now is the time to really start developing stuff that is more than just , pew pew or kaboom.

I hope you're wrong but if that is the case that could spell a death knell for this game.

I stand corrected. That was what I meant but I did not state it that way. You are right though it was their expansion.

I won't disagree with you on the engine thing but if its such a problem why not change it with an honest to goodness expansion? This was something I commented on in my post "Hey Devs are we going to get a true expansion? Is one in the works?" From what I have read about this engine it has many problems, the first being that it was a beta and not the end product. People have argued that to a revamping of the system along with new content is impossible due in part to Voice Over Acting as well as other things like how will it merge. But I think it can be done and should be. This game is not all hat it can be.

Um... I think i may try rift. I really can't argue what you say. I have mentioned some of what you did, mainly their F2P model and got flamed for it. I didn't mention Rift , I mentioned DCUO ( Dc Universe Online) who implements much the same type of F2P model and while I have my issues with certain things they do know how to treat their long time players properly unlike EA and what they did with this game. I also agree with you in terms of powers and skills. One of the things I feel is sorely lacking is the ability to truly customize one's character. The Dev's said they wanted to make Jedi and Sith like they were in KOTOR but said they could not due to balancing issues so what we ended up with are light stick wielding one size fits all shadows of what they should be. I have said that this is a cop out. Other games like what you mentioned seem able to give players to freedom to customize their characters with abilities so that no two characters are the same and still maintain balance. Other people may flame you in part i believe because they may have that Knee jerk fan boy reaction but I won't.

I notice EA steps in a lot when it comes to things like additions being free to subscribers when it really isn't to begin with since its our monthly subscription that pays for those additions. EA's is simply practicing an unscrupulous cash grab and so far producing generic products. It's a shame Bioware was bought by them

I hope you're wrong too. However on much of what you say I cant disagree unfortunately. I wish Microsoft had bought BioWare instead of EA. I don't care much for Microsoft myself especially with their recent Screw ups with the Xbox 1 but Microsoft is known for letting companies they buy retain their autonomy so long as they are producing profit and they have no problems throwing money at a game or letting developers take their time and make quality content so long as they can prove the company will get their money's worth. EA doesn't work like that. Its about milking the brand name for all its worth before discarding it for something else. Very short term thinking when they should be thinking about the long game (pardon the pun).

I agree with you Makeb was nothing more than a DLC that they called an expansion which it wasn't. I would also like to see a significant change to pvp and pve meaning and I have said this before I would like for them to make seperate damage and hold tables for pvp and pve so as when they balance they don't break a skill that works fine in pve. This would also serve as a great template if they did it this way to allow for jedi and sith to have actual power pools where a player could customize their character rather than this simplistic 1 size fits all approach

What killed SWG was the blatant disregard for cannon and allowing everyone to become jedi even though this takes place around the time of the first 3 movies when jedi if they are still around are in hiding

Its star was which like star trek is a license to print money if done properly. Also EA didn't loose money on this game, the company made its money back within roughly two months of it releasing which means money made after was pure profit. The issue they had with this game was that it didn't turn out to be the WOW killer they wanted. This disappointment was largely their fault considering EA like other companies fail to realize that WOW was an outlier rather than the norm.

Amen to that brother. I second that. If Lord of the rings can put out expansions why not this? It's no secret that EA makes shameless cash grabs expansions can only line their pockets more

I didn't miss the fact that BioWare was bought ages ago. I had issues with it then and I still do now. I would have preferred BioWare be bought by Microsoft rather than EA because of EA's business practices. I'm not extolling the virtues of Microsoft by any means, especially considering their Xbox 360 debacle which has now been compounded with their new Xbox one and copy protected nonsence. What I am saying is this, even though Microsoft has a habit of making an offer that smaller companies cant refuse they also allow companies to remain autonomous which is something that EA does not do. EA buys a company and converts them into the EA way of doing things which is offering a host of rushed or generic products at an exorbitant amount of money. You doubt ? What was the verdict of Mass Effect 3? The only thing that remains autonomous with companies that EA buys are the name which EA milks for all its worth. In this case people have fond memories of BioWare which at one point was known as Microsoft's dirty little secret in the form of KOTR and because of that people will still buy the product despite the fact that it is now EA owned. I also don't blame EA fully for SWTOR. I think the fault lay in both parties. I believe BioWare made the mistake in using too much from WOW in terms of a template rather than drawing from other sources as well and more importantly drawing from themselves. BioWare in making this game should have done what they did best and just been BioWare and went their own way in development rather than simply drawing from one main template. Now with regards to the other stuff you mentioned such as actors and the like. They did it with Makeb obviously so why not a fully actualized expansion that I wouldn't mind paying $40-60 for? The set up is already there for an expansion. No matter the class it all ends with the war about to break out again. This would be a prime opportunity to elevate this and move away from the WOW' esk one size character fits all when it does not. I also said way back in beta they needed more classes than what was offered but as a start it was decent. Also quick blub going back to EA. Google search EA and the Golden Poo award and read what it says about their business practices

God I hope you are wrong about the whole BW trying to make as much money before the product dies thing. I can't say you are wrong but I hope you are. As for the rest I'm willing to compromise on the Makeb "expansion." You make a valid point it could be seen as an expansion (which they called it) Be it a very small lackluster one that subscribers should have only had to pay $5 not $10 for. And yes when I mentioned a true expansion I meant as said in my original post an out of the box $40-$60 expansion with new classes and continuing story since we all know the war picks up. I think it would be very interesting to have an expansion that is the war and maybe has a 3rd and a 4th faction that may not want to see either side victorious or helps for their own agenda