[We need sandbox elements pls]

And the NGE saved the game? You mean the game that is no longer around?

It survived up until the same month that The Old Republic game out, instead of the 2005 timeframe.

[We need sandbox elements pls]

Ok, where is your proof showing JTL lost more people than it gained?

 

And the NGE saved the game? You mean the game that is no longer around?

 

And I believe he is asking for Sandbox elements, not a complete re-direct.

 

that IS a complete re-direct. The Old Republic, was never touted as being a sandbox game, and Bioware as a company has never been interested in sandbox-style gameplay or RPG's as a whole.

 

Bioware does story, and that's it. They may be arguably the best in the industry at providing story in videogames, and they have never deviated from trying to be.

 

Even adding "minor" sandbox elements, while you may not be sailing back to home port, is still a U-turn.

[Will Bioware bring playable races that doesn't look like colored humans?]

Valid point, there are times that sticking to your guns is a plus. On the other hand, I might argue that doing so is what has landed the game in its present position.

 

I am basically looking ahead a year or so, to making a final call on this game. That differs from how I started our guilds expansion into this game, since I thought it would be better received than it has been. I think this game can last a long time, can still grow overall, and in five years, be bigger than it was at launch. But they have a lot of work to do. And I worry about EA's resolve. They have short attention spans and a massive, resentful, inferiority complex at EA.

 

The game isn't "bad" it just isn't "great." And it does need to improve massively.

 

Bioware did say that they have a ten-year plan for this game, and need to maintain a sub. base of around 500k. Considering that EA had to approve that "plan", and considering that TOR still has double its necessary subscribers, I think it's secure for the moment.

 

That said, In regards to the issue at hand of species, wether they're "human" or not is unknown, but it was stated that new species will be available by the end of the year.

[We need sandbox elements pls]

The same could be said about the way this game is going. Atleast SWG lasted much longer. Go back to WoW, it ur type of mentality that this game is bleeding subs like sliced vein

 

how many times did SWG have to try and reinvent itself?

 

The Jump To Lightspeed expansion which lost more people than it brought in, despite being announced even before the original game was released. The Combat Upgrade, The New Game Experience, and it goes on and on from there.

 

It was the NGE, which changed the game from a sandbox experience to a more "themepark" one, that had actually saved the game. If that had never happened the game would have gone under completly.

 

But now, what you're suggesting is that somehow the reverse will work here: that a change from themepark to sandbox will do wonders for a game that still has double the subscribers that SWG ever did and is still making money.

 

This makes no cogent sense.

[Will Bioware bring playable races that doesn't look like colored humans?]

Yep, it's something we were pointing out, literally, years before the game came out.

 

Did Bioware listen? Of course not. Different coloured humans FTW!

 

There is something to be said for sticking to your guns, and while I'd love to be a nonsensical Jawa Sith or Ithorian Bounty Hunter, or Quarren Sith, that's something for a more typial MMO, or even a tabletop RPG, where you make the story up yourself.

[We need sandbox elements pls]

We all know what I mean by sandbox. The Devs should go download SWGEmu and play around and take some notes and ideas and implement them in here. I feel suffocated in your 100% instanced game. That is all. Please fulfill this request and I will love you.

 

yes, lets follow the lead of a game that was a complete commercial and critical flop: that'll definatly bring the money in....

[Will Bioware bring playable races that doesn't look like colored humans?]

Jedi preserve Life, look how our Jedi preserve life by commiting genocide after genocide. This is worse to me to relate a jedi killer than relate to a wookie mechanic. By the way, Momaw Nadon, the Ithorian from Mos Eisley cantina, is a Rebel Spy. Just like humans, aliens can be whatever. A Trandoshan killing for his "points" is more appealing to me than a Jedi using the force to kill. Actually, agressive telekinesis is considered "Dark Side", and our Jedi enjoy the effect every time.

It was a theoretical. Point stands that while there is variation and diversity in all species, there is also diversity in how each species is treated. Yes there are Ithorian Spy's, or even bounty hunters like the moomoo brothers from the KOTOR comic books. However, If I were to see one of them, I would certainly not treat it as a cultural or social norm.

 

Forgot wookies and trandoshans. You deliverately did not mention the ONLY ONES that you know i would like? In the story we got a trandoshan and a wookie, and they make theirselves clear.

Actually I deliberaty mentioned the species that have predominantly human faces.

 

In kotor there were different jedis because IN FACT you were only able to choose the progression of your JEDI character, not other classes. You have compared the different prestiges from kotor with different CLASSES in swtor. So they have taken some characteristics that could have been specs and voila, we got another class.

However, KOTOR took the mechanics and classes from the Star Wars D20 RPG that was prevalent at the time and was a reflection of D&D 3.5.

Yes, they took some characteristics that could have been a specialization and made a whole other class out of them. They also made whole new stories, missions, companions, armor, etc. to go with.

If this were a "Normal" MMO, all that had to be done was to create the abilities and the armor, and than try to balance it.

 

I am amazed how can you propose to destroy your story by respec your character whenever you want him to be a healer. So you are annoyed by the possibility of a wookie ruining my "feeling" but don't mind that every character, whenever he wants, becomes a master healer in 2 minutes.

It does bug me to an extent, but I've considered a few things

A) Character respecs are an expected thing in MMO's nowadays. Wether you have healing there or not won't change that.

B) The Story is reflective of your overall class and character, not any specific ability, or else every AC would have a divergent storyline (which, while cool, is unrealistic). Considering your character is determined, at least in part, by their species, yes, A wookie Counsilor walking around with a Trandoshan buddy (species that have hated each other since they knew of each other) would cause more problems than a respecialization of talents.

 

And you say a healer could be "stuck" in its story? Just like every consular, every bounty hunter, or EVERY class you want are "stuck" in their story. Doesn't matter what you do, the actual income is going to be the same if you are a healer or a serial killer. If you are as evil as a sith with your jedi, doesn't matter. In the back of the pre-order box they said "make decisions which define your personal story". Confusion.

What I mean is that in a typical MMO setup, there's only one or two dedicated healer classes in the game. Which would mean if you wanted to heal you HAD to have the Counsilor storyline.

With the way Bioware changed things around, a person can still be a dedicated healer and still pick whatever class story they want.

 

 

Just like a long time ago, when they began to place drawings and designs of alien races in their webpage, even one that showed a group of players, ONE of them being a wookie: You could see wookies, cathar, trandoshans... again confusion. But coincidentally EVERY alien picture was removed when this webpage did his wonderful change, and now you only see humans. Try to look for alien pictures in this web, they are no longer here.

And so naturally any picture of a character in a videogame is going to be of a player. That makes perfect sense in an MMO.

 

They are workers, got a job, and I hope well paid, but they sure don't make decisions. I fear that ECONOMICAL and MARKETING decisions make games like this one. Ironically, the desire to do something new and make people enjoy is what made Electronic Arts GREAT, with titles such as ARCHON, RACING DESTRUCTION SET and a lot more that they DEVELOPED in the 80's. Sure they remember those old times where a game HAD to be ORIGINAL and completely different from another one, or it wasn't worth to do it.

And yet Bioware seems to have actually done something original by implementing story and full voice in their MMO, which has shaped their entire game-design process, and instead of actually applauding the effort to do something that hadn't been done before, you just sum the entire game up into a bunch of "lazy excuses".

[SWTOR bleeding subs, so now are you going to consider AC respec?]

The sole survival of the game does not depend on you getting what you want.

Even with an ability to change your Advanced Class, people won't come back if there isn't something to do with it. Their first priority should be game content: that is what will keep people and get more coming back.

[Will Bioware bring playable races that doesn't look like colored humans?]

"because the bound is stronger if your character is a human"??.

"giving too much importance to space would make two kind of players, so we only wanted to make a mini-game"??

"Classes have almost the same skills because we thought about balance"??

 

Excuses, all these things sound as excuses.

Open to interpretation I guess. I don't see them as excuses because at the end of the day they are all true.

Even if you are somehow able to relate to hammerheaded pacifists that live their entire lives on "Herd Ships" rather than on their home planet because they want to preserve nature as much as possible (Ithorians), it's still easier to relate to a human.

And lets also factor that not all people treat all species act the same or are treated the same. It would feel very strange, not only for an Ithorian to be a trooper, but for everyone that he meets along the way to treat it as something normal.

 

A full-on space sim would create an entirely seperate game within The Old Republic, just as Jump To Lightspeed did for Galaxies. Not only that, but it doesn't create very many story opportunities for the game as a whole. Mini-games, wether it's a tunnel shooter or a Battlefield 2 recreation, gives them the ability to do all of the story elements without the huge infrastructure that a sim would cost.

 

You had no possibility to do other races as the gear wouldn't fit AND the presentation choosen that requires voice-acting would be a HUGE work. OK. Please, tell the truth. When they say that in fact, the most wanted species are in the game they don't seem honest, because cyborgs are not an alien at all, and many people feel they included them just because they didn't find anymore "humanish" species for filling.

A) Nobody in Bioware actually said that species were eliminated because of voice-acting. Any species that was nixed out because of that or lip-synching would have been knocked out for the story aspect.

B) There are plenty of species that they could have used, or still can in the future. Zeltron,Cathar or Togruta (which are all already in the game) Arkanians (and the offshoot subspecies), Clawdite, Falleen, Ryn, Nagai, Umbaran, and plenty more.

 

Same with classes, they are mirrored, the bounty hunter is exactly the trooper, the smuggler is exactly the agent, and there was a need for FOUR force users? With ONE jedi and ONE sith class was enough, but then they should have to invent another one to fill. Don't you think you spare a lot of designs with this decision? And of course there was no place for Traders or Crafters or Healers because nobody would play them. BUT as you need healers, then let's allow EVERY class to be healer even if you are a bounty hunter?¿?¿ a sith?¿?¿? A SITH healing???????? So, a REPUBLIC MEDIC or an IMPERIAL MEDIC are not interesting enough... or perhaps the real answer is that another class would need ANOTHER starship design and another GEAR design?? With two jedi and two sith you spare a lot of things.

Trooper/Hunter and Smuggler/Agent classes have very basic, confined ability sets. Jedi and the Sith however, have alot more room to manuever with because the ammount of different things we have seen, read, or played involving Jedi. To keep things fair and equal, they split them each up into a "lightsaber based" and a "force-based" character, which has worked in many RPG's before with great success (Including the previous KOTOR games).

Than there's the point that even though they are mirrors of each other in mechanics, the story for each class is different, even between the Jedi Knight and the Jedi Consilor.

Regarding healing, keep in mind how things have worked in past mmo's. Dedicated healers always are in short supply. If you give everyone the capability to be a dedicated healer, you eliminate that by a good percentage and than your players can spend less time getting a group together and more time actually doing something as a group.

Once again, there is also the story aspect to this. By giving healing choices to all the players, it also makes it so that a player can choose any story they want while still playing the healing role that they want, where-as in a traditional mmo setup, all the healers would have been "stuck with" the consilor story, or equivalent.

 

Do you really think a bunch of game designers who collectivly suffered from lazyness would have chosen to make an MMO?

[Level 10 skip pack]

This would be an item( activated in the same way the founder medal is) that would allow you to skip to level 10 and instantly arrive on the republic or imperial fleet. You would be given all the items, including the ones retrieved by the comm vendors, so that you would arrive on the fleet with everything you would normally have if all quests were completed. This item would be exclusively for those who have completed at least one storyline, and once activated, it would ask you a set of questions( based on your class) that would determine the amount of ls or ds points you have.

 

For people who may of accidentally activated the item, and don't really want to skip to level 10, all you would need to do is click cancel when it starts asking you questions. Doing so will cancel the skip process, and you will start from where you left off.

 

So because I completed the story arc in one class, somehow the beginning of the other 7 don't matter?

That's pure nonsense.

[What Species do you want to be playable?]

Gungans for sure. Just because of their unique cities and weapons, not to even mention the mounts.

 

From what I'm aware of, at this point of time the Gungans are not a unified people yet, they still fight each other more than anything else. It also has no Republic ties to it whatsover, and the main attraction by independant spacers is big game hunting.

[Unique Companion Unlocks]

It would seem out of place. Each class has a series of character companions, each tied to the story somehow, also with their own narrative, and ability set that complements that classes abilities.

 

How do you make random companion drops fit in with all of that?

[Will Bioware bring playable races that doesn't look like colored humans?]

Chadra-Fan maybe?

[Will Bioware bring playable races that doesn't look like colored humans?]

I did ask before, and was curious, what would you want to play as if you had the chance?

[Will Bioware bring playable races that doesn't look like colored humans?]

They're too lazy to make race specific helmets and/or armor that doesn't clip. They're using "But you won't identify with the character" as an excuse so they don't have to admit it.

Or, you know, somebody could actually be telling the truth.

 

I love this whole "they didn't do what I wanted, therefore they are lazy" argument, because you can tell they're people that don't think before they talk.

[Will Bioware bring playable races that doesn't look like colored humans?]

You're totally right. We should just all be beige stick men and scrap most of the graphics department entirely, because, like... what's the point maaaaaan? All we are is dust in the wind...

Oh how cute! Look everyone, Johny made a man out of straw!

 

What I actually said was that customization is an illusion that you are special. I never said that it wasn't needed. In fact, I do say later on (you know, if you try following the entire conversation) that it is absolutly a necessary illusion.

 

Considering I play tabletop RPG's more than I do videogame RPG's, you wouldn't hear a complaint from me if everything looked the same. I'm already accustomed to using my imagination for everything anyway.

[Will Bioware bring playable races that doesn't look like colored humans?]

I agree with you that of course graphics are not by far the most important thing in a videogame. To me the main characteristic is freedom. I think that actually customization is present even in games that don't need that factor, but it is seen as a good feature. Following the example of the sniper from Call of Duty, you can choose the ASPECT of your sniper, even in a game where you hardly see other thing that your weapon. And do you know how many people play hours or months to achieve a weapon cammo that ONLY affects the graphic that is in front of you?

Many, but they also aren't paying per month for that game.

The more you pay for something, the more you expect, right? Well, if you pay nothing for something, you're likely to keep going much longer.

 

I think if you tried the same approach in TOR it wouldn't work. Rated PvP combat, and at the end of it all you get is the ability to change your gears appearance?

 

I have read persons that wanted to unsub because they wanted its commando to have infinite healing powers.

Others have said they would unsub if there is no cross-server LFG tool.

Likings are like colours, and in preferences matters you can not say "it's illogical". Tastes can't be logic nor illogic, they can't be ruled by logic. That's because it is a matter of personal preferences or liking, so it is subjective. You can give YOUR opinion, but not try to say i am wrong about my own personal likings.

Yes, people choose to unsub, or refuse to ever pick the game up in the first place, for all manner of things. Is the game attempting to be all things to all people? No, and that's fine.

You are, as always, entitled to your opinion, and at no point would I try to say otherwhise. I'm not saying a prefrence for customization is somehow "wrong", or your opinion about non-humans in TOR is "bad".

That you would be willing to get back in the game just because of a graphic swap makes no sense, but as you point out, people do things that make no sense all the time.

 

 

 

If the announcement states that i'm going to have moving lips and voices, it doesn't necessarily mean that i actually i'm going to loose other features. And, as aliens and space are a needed ingredient to science fiction SPACE OPERA and FANTASY (the genres that Star Wars belongs to) i think that these aspects are a must and so they should be present. And thought they ARE, they have not chosen the iconic races. It is like playing LOTR and not being able to choose an Elf or a Dwarf and instead the options were choosing from a Human Gondor soldier, a Human Rohirrim and a Human Wizard. And in the dark side you had no orks, only Human Easterlings and Human Dunlendings. Of course they exist, but some would feel that they have chosen poorly. I would never want, as an example, a Chiss to be removed from the game, someone would like them, but to me not having wookies or rodians or ithorians is fail (IMO)

I'm not so sure about that first point. If you look at trailers, you can usually tell where the emphasis is and where its not. If the main trailer is all about showing off the multiplayer aspect of the game, that probably means singleplayer is an afterthought. If the trailer is focussed around a named character doing something, it's probably a story-based game that doesn't have alot of freedom involved.

Considering Bioware's only main character that weren't humans was in Dragon Age, and was still very-human ish, it was a safe bet at the beginning that there wasn't going to be much for species.

Not to say that you were wrong for not picking up on it, but it was something I came to right away.

I see your comparison, and you have a point, but I'd say there's something important to consider about both franchises.

A) LOTR bounced around with many characters events at once, all of them different, and the main character, Frodo wasn't a human, and while not the main characters, Legolas, Gimli, and the other Hobbits had all contributed significantly to the plot. LOTRO Online is taking the everyman philosophy to reflect the feel of that material, Frodo wasn't special or chosen by some mechanic of fate, he was an ordinary person given extraordinary burden.

B) Star Wars had fewer main characters, all of which were human. Those main characters, wether good or bad, were all "destined" to accomplish something significant. While there are alot of characters that are clearly not-human, more so than LOTR had, they never played a major part in the franchise beyond that of an extra or minor character. The Old Republic reflects that as well, as Erickson has put it, the different between a "Luke Skywalker" story versus an "Uncle Owen" story.

[Atmospheric Flight + Space Interface]

500,000 was the limit to turn a reasonable profit.

 

Well below the limit EA would ever plow money into SWTOR for future expansions and such.

 

If SWTOR only has 500,000 or less subs by the end of the year, just like WAR, SWTOR will never see any expansion.

 

Considering Bioware has a ten year plan for the game, at that subscription, I have to think you're wrong about that.

[Atmospheric Flight + Space Interface]

Because this is Star Wars, not WOW. I don't see any other reason you couldn't find this appealing. Would you rather fly a mounted bird?

 

That's funny, because I don't remember making any refrences to that game, or even thinking about it. Maybe you should try something called reading comprehension and critical analysis. If that doesn't float your boat, you could always try common sense.

The reasoning is simple. I think the addage of "It's not the destination, but the journey" is a load of.....well, you know. This is especially true when the journey involves nothing but turning on cruise control and making sure you don't veer off the highway (or hitting numlock and the arrow keys once in a while)

[Atmospheric Flight + Space Interface]

While enjoying a cup of Baileys Irish coffee I realized an error in your thinking, Darth Halford. You see, SWTOR is an MMORPG. I emphasize the RPG because the objective is to become immersed within that character; otherwise you could just play any old non-RPG game for the quick thrill of action combat.

I don't know what's worse: that you had to drink alcohol in order to come up with this, or that while under the influence, you actually thought I wasn't aware of what kind of game I was playing.

 

Yes, you are immersed in the character, and no matter what, the character is an important member of the Sith Empire or The Galactic Republic, changing the lives of those around you and the course of the war. You are not an explorer of space: you are not an asteroid miner. You are not Uncle Owen.

 

What's even better is that you think that just because its an RPG that a game can't have quick thrills and action: I point out Bioware's other very successful franchise of Mass Effect which does have action combat while still being an RPG under the hood.

 

But alas, no! SWTOR is an RPG, just like Final Fantasy, Chrono Trigger, and our beloved Knights of the Old Republic. You are part of the character, and that includes the mundane as well as the thrilling moments. If you completely remove all of the "boring" aspects of that character then he or she ceases to be something you can identify with, and instead becomes something akin to a simple action character.

I don't know about that. Commander Sheppard's adventures was pretty well devoid of the menial or the ordinary, and I still felt like I could identify with the character a great deal.

What's more, the parts that were ordinary (cruising the planets for materials, probing for resources, buying cooking supplies while fighting the Collectors) didn't actually make me relate to him at all.

 

RPGs are about more than cut scenes and action. They are about your avatar, and if you take away chunks of the world of which the character is a part then it marginalizes the identity of that character, which is a very bad thing for a story-driven MMORPG.

Can't take something away if it was never there to start with. RPG's at the heart and sole is right in the title. You assume a role and play as that character. In most games you don't get to choose anything about the role you play. Still gotta crawl the dungeons and save the princess, no matter what you do. In this game, the role that you play is as predetermined as any other RPG. If the fact that the narrative doesn't involve mining space gas and asteroids is a dealbreaker, you saw that coming when you picked it up off the shelf.

[The droids have to be the next playable race]

Well yeah they wouldn't be able to be force sensitive classes that is just silly Make the droid options scary looking so the galaxy will fear to treat them as property and possibly even show them respect. I would be hella scared to even try to talk down to a droid like IG-88 based on its look alone.

 

It wouldn't matter what they look like. By law they're property, and a scary looking droid is just a scary looking tool waiting for a Slave Collar. Why respect the droid as a person when I can make it respect me as a master with technology?

[The droids have to be the next playable race]

A) ??? Write up a story about it and call it a day.

B) Have droid specific classes, instead of re-using existing classes.

C) Introducing IG-88: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/IG-88

 

A) A story about identity crisis, in a video-game? That would actually be rather interesting, but I don't think an MMO is the place to do it.

"While you're figuring out who or what exactly you are, we need help with the Sand People...." Doesn't really work to me

B) So, create customization for them, a narrative, class-missions, and than abilities and talents, in a balanced way that doesn't interfere with them, only to be outdone by the Legacy System.

C) A one-of-a-kind droid thousands of years in the future does not justify tens of thousands like it now.

[The droids have to be the next playable race]

I can solve all of your problems with one answer. Our characters are supposed to be special so they have a conflict in programming and break free of it and develop a personality quirk in the process.

 

That may take care of Being subservient to a masters will, but that doesn't change the fact that they will never feel the Force, and the the Galaxy at large still sees them as property rather than individuals.

[The droids have to be the next playable race]

Problem.

 

A) Droids are property, not people.

B) Droids are not force-sensitive, and thus cannot be half of the given classes right away. The Republic and the Empire, bothing seeing point A as true, would recognize a droid as a person but as something to be given to one of their personel, thus a Trooper or Bounty Hunter is out of the question.

C) Given that they are nothing but servants of the will of their masters (yes, even hk-47 obeyed orders), how do you write a cogent story? Even if you totally ignore point B, there is the distinct lack of free will among droids that makes a story-based character troublesome.

[Atmospheric Flight + Space Interface]

Just to further drive the point home. The Opening remarks on the 600-page Space Combat thread (which continued from pre-dev forums), says right in the front that they are not looking for a full-space sim, but simply a 3-d flight option, and the majority of players seem to support that position.