Are you finished? Oh well allow me to retort. Eh vain.. call me interested in polishing functions of a class that I enjoy playing. I guess those are the same thing. The change to Thrown Gauntlet by removing Threatening Screams cooldown reduction was an unnecessary change for PvE. In multi-target fights (yes these exist outside of Flashpoints) I enjoyed not having to rely on single-target taunt trading and tabbing every GCD to keep AoE threat. I feel this change was made solely as a nerf to Juggernauts in regards to PvP. (Where is was necessary) The simple solution was to keep Single Target taunts as a Damage reduction in PvP while completely removing this from AoE taunts. This obviously didn't happen. The focus on Enraged Defense and the threat increase it would provide mainly centered around the first 12 seconds of a fight. Using Enraged Defense after the initial pull would allow you to hold your taunt or vise-verse you could burn Enrage+Enraged Defense after an initial taunt faded to set early threat to allow for a great spike in burst DPS on a target. (this could even play in to a boss or mob mechanic for a fight *gasp*) Other tanks have DPS cooldowns they can use to create this same effect. (i.e. Explosive Fuel from Powertechs) I lumped these two together to explain the idea for my change to Retaliation. In my posted example the following occurs: > Retaliation grants Revenge. (Revenge changed to a passive Defense bonus/per stack) > You get move defense if you keep this buff up meaning you have to cycle Retaliation on CD. > This means you have to be actively watching buffs/cds. > Actively. *Note: Blade Barricade buff duration was increased to 10 seconds to coincide with the updated cooldown on Retaliation. (Retaliation and Blade Barricade are both 6 seconds on live atm.. which makes sense) Unleashed was rolled in to Payback which is in the Tier 2 Rage tree still.. and going that deep in to Rage would make sense given these changes. Even leaving it at 10% would still be satisfying. As it stands Unleashed is filler that has no place in the Immortal tree. It is at best a good PvP talent and at worst a poor mans Endure Pain. This would put our health pool in-line with Powertechs and Assassins. 24-25k buffed. Damn you got me. How is 5/5 EC Hard-mode working out for you? I am obviously less skilled than you as I am missing the Mystery Boss in EC apparently. Finally we see where it all falls out. Also I could go in to depth on how the Two-roll system works for Defense/Shield/Absorb. Or maybe how you, as a Juggernaut, have less innate mitigation than either Powertechs (far more Shield/Absorb) or Assassins (far more Elemental/Internal resists) but I wouldn't want to give away all the "Super Top Secret Juggernaut Ninja Defensive Tactics" for the *lesser skilled* players to pick up on. Now DPS.. Since you asked, let's look at the proposed DPS changes, and the talent switches, in no particular order: They did not change the cooldown reduction. They did decrease the damage multiplier to 20%. The also added Sweeping Strikes to it. At this point I changed this more for the need of a 3-point talent. You can keep it at 20% damage and make it three points.. meh here. Cool glad to hear that you like a possible change. For 1 point it is a very nice purchase on that Tier as well. This Vengeance change is somewhat weak for being that deep in the tree I admit; however, I feel that Sundering Throw is more appropriate in Immortal. The main intention was centered more on adding a tool for Vengeance for PvP with the slow + buffed Execute. P.S.: Ehh..okay. Can I send you a singing telegram? Flowers and candy? Are we good buddies now? Game. Set. Match. You want the ball back now?

Uchoo I guess I should give you credit as you did make a comment about DPS. Nah I just needed the stat distribution to be correct for that Tier and overall feel the change to Smash was unnecessary. The Through Passion change is only while Enraged Defense is active.. so 5 seconds every 45 with the changes I posted. As for the trees and the structure Bioware uses I am at a loss. I understand why the trees are "a little mixed up". They really aren't composed well on a whole (random filler talents much?) and the changes I was offering retain the spirit of the Immortal, Vengeance and Rage trees and the uniqueness they each offer while redistributing a few abilities in ways that makes the trees flow from 1 to 31 without a "filler". Me too! I think Enraged Defense is a cool idea, it just needs to benefit the AC as a whole. I personally pushed for really cool bonuses for ER high in the trees. (See Through Passion, Vehement i.e. updated Deafening Defense and Sweeping Fury)

I play a Juggernaut Tank and DPS in Sith'ari of Prophecy of the Five (#10 in the world clearing EC 8-man Hardmode) so I have seen everything SW:TOR has to offer as a DPS and a tank. (Good luck on Keph there Riot) I feel that tanking as a Juggernaut is vanilla, boring and down right bad. (But certainly not difficult) I was offering ideas about possible changes that would make the role as a Juggernaut Tank or DPS a smoother, more manageable and *gasp* enjoyable process. In light of keeping this post on track and being constructive please post the examples of what you see as a buff in 1.2 to Juggernaut tanking. There were certainly tree changes in Immortal and they wrecked Vengeance tanking (not that it was truly viable) but I still was left very wanting. I would love to see your opinions on what made us better! (I do have an open mind) > Elder: An FYI for you. I tanked for Vendetta for two separate games so your basis for judging my skill to play is unfounded. I have a lot of respect for your guild and would hope that we can have a creative exchange here about ideas regarding Juggernauts and the issues they face. If you are not aware of the link between Vendetta and LotD go talk to Hades. I appreciate that you have an opinion about tanking as a Juggernaut and express that quite a bit on these forums. > Riot: Making assumptions about my personal abilities as a player is very unbecoming. (you come across as vain) I could really care less for your opinion. I have seen the posts you have made previously regarding tanking as a Juggernaut and I appreciate that you enjoy expressing your opinion. An aside to this: I am an Immortal tank. I am very well geared with the correct stats distribution. I know how/when to use taunts and abilities. I can appreciate the fact you feel it necessary to point out these things make a "good" tank. I guess I qualify. tldr; add something constructive or get out? P.S. Not a single comment about the ideas involving DPS.. makes me chuckle. PvE DPS Juggernauts are beastly.

For Juggernauts, Update 1.2 offered a few positive changes to the class through a handful of talent changes and an added ability called Enraged Defense; however, the class is still plagued with the same issues that it suffered from prior to the update. These issues stem from an overall lack of consistent talent trees, a very ineffective balance of stat points per talent tier and a few talents that are simply a waste of space. This post is a list of suggestions aimed to refine the Juggernaut Advanced Class through a series of changes to the talent trees and a modification of a few abilities. Any values listed are obviously flexible. The intention of this post is merely to start a conversation. First are two major areas of changes that include the subset of abilities/talent for these specific changes. Tanking Update (Retalitation/Lash Out/ Revenge) * Retaliation > Rage cost reduced to 2, requirement for melee/ranged defense proc removed. Keeps off GCD status. Retaliation now reads "A vengeful strike for 600 - 800 weapon damage. The target also bleeds for 1000 internal damage over 10 seconds. This ability generates a moderate amount of threat. This attack cannot miss, be parried or dodged." Internal cooldown increases to 10 seconds. * Revenge (Changes to 3 point value at 33/66/100%) > Changed to read "When Retaliation is used gain one stack of Revenge. Each stack of Revenge increases Defense chance/Elemental/Internal damage reduction by 1%. Revenge lasts 10 seconds and stacks up to 5 times." * Blade Barricade > Increase the buff duration to 10 seconds. * Guard Stance (keeps position and point total) > Changes function to "Adds 2/4/6% Defense and Increases elemental and internal damage reduction by 1/2/3%." * Dark Blood (removed) > This talent would be replaced with Huddle. Huddle now reads "Increases Endurance by 4/8% and Intercede now applies it's effects to you as well." ------------------------------- The primary focus of these changes would be to add an active component to Tanking Juggernauts through revamping Retaliation and giving it an actual purpose. This would be a very beneficial update to the current play-style of the class, which when compared to Powertechs or Assassins is very "classic tank" bland. ------------------------------- * Enraged Defense (Give it a purpose!) * Enraged Defense > Rage activation cost lowered to 3 and now reads "In Shien and Shii-cho forms: Immediately reduce threat by a moderate amount. In Sorseu form: Immediately increase threat Generation by 40%. On use heals the player for 15% of their maximum health over 5 seconds." * Through Passion > Talent changed to read "While Enraged Defense is active damage dealt by all Force Attacks is increased by 10/20%." * Deafening Defense (removed) > This talent would be replaced with a new talent called Vehement. Vehement reads "When Enraged Defense is active all damage dealt is increased by 5% and all effects are applied to your party." * Sweeping Fury > Changes to read "While in Soresu form the frequency rage can be generated is reduced by 1/2/3 seconds. Also reduces all damage taken by 1%/2%/3% and by and additional 5%/10%/15% while Enraged Defense is active." ------------------------------- The intentions behind adding Enraged Defense were in whole positive; however, the ability itself has a very limited scope of use in it's current form. The additional benefits from the talent changes listed would turn this type of mechanic in to something that can define the class. ------------------------------- Other Changes (Mixed Tree changes focused on cleaning up) * Move Decimate from Rage to Immortal Tier 1. (Replacing Quake) > Restore it to the original 3 points value w/ 30% damage increase and 3 second cooldown reduction. * Replace Decimate in Rage with an ability (2 points total value) called Iron Will that adds 2%/4% endurance. * Move Battle Cry from Immortal to Vengeance Tier 1. (Swapping with Stagger) > Stagger is now moved to Immortal and keeps is current bonus to Immobilize but also adds a 5/10% Accuracy debuff on the target of the Charge as well. * Battle Cry (now in Vengeance Tier 1) changes to trigger from Crushing Blow/Obliterate/Impale. * Intimidation changed to "Reduces Rage cost of Chilling Scream by 1/2 and cooldown of Threatening Scream by 5/10 seconds." * Remove Unleashed (function added to Payback) > Change Payback to 10/20 second cooldown reduction on Unleashed and heals for 20% max health on use. * Heavy Handed > Change to read "Increase the damage to Sundering Assault, Crushing Blow and Smash by 8%." * Thrown Gauntlet (now in Vengeance) > Swaps positions with Sundering Throw and changes to "Increases the damage of Sundering Throw and Vicious Throw by 10/20%. The target of these attacks is now slowed by 40%." * Sundering Throw (now in Immortal) > Swaps position with Thrown Gauntlet and changes to "While in Soresu Form reduce the minimum range of Saber Throw by 5/10 meters and reduce the cooldown by 5/10 seconds. Saber Throw now applies 1/2 stacks of Sunder Armor to the target." * Savagery > Change to read "Impale and Shatter have a 33%/66%/100% chance to increase the damage of Ravage by 10%."

Vengeance is by far the best end-game PvE DPS spec. I am running this build currently and it has been working out great: 2/33/6 Vengeance You could always swap the 2 points in Malice to Battle Cry if it suits your play style more. (Depending on how much you are Force Leaping) I would never consider a hybrid Vengeance build (less than 31) because in my opinion any Vengeance spec without Impale and Shatter will be missing out on the key component that makes Rampage work. Back to the last boss in 8-man hardmode EC! * If you are talking about PvP (it's not super obvious from your title or text) I am running a Hybrid Immortal Vengeance build or pure Rage still. I enjoy the play style of both but the ImVeng hybrid plays to a group role in point guarding/healer guarding much more. Pure Rage is fun to dink around with solo.. but is still very much a one-trick pony.