[Make Marksmanship Great Again]

As far as I understand; the reason for the original orbital nerf was because devs wanted it to be exclusively an aoe ability and not in the single target rotation so I don't see them rebuffing it to old levels. Engineering is the exception because I think the design intentions for that spec are to feature a lot of aoe within it (plasma probe, frag grenade, orbital are all used in the single target rotation).

 

Yea they did it stylistically not for mechanics they probably wont do it but it would solve the dps problem without messing too much with pvp. but currently mm dps is exactly where they want it in relation to the other classes. the other solution is that operations bosses need to be re-designed to make mm useful. MM's failure in pve is based on poor operation design. past evidence shows the operations design team does not consider the capability of each class prior to designing each fight. (revan and the hold the line, reflect and the fire from torque)

 

I don't think an orbital buff is the best way to go about a dps buff for MM in particular. Orbital does need some sort of tweaking I feel though. As it stands right now; orbital is almost worthless as an aoe ability just because of the strength of other aoe gcds amongst all sniper specs plus the fact orbital is highly positional and takes a long duration to deal significant damage. Orbital is more commonly used during moments of downtime to take advantage of the delay between activation end and the 1st damage tick; so right now it is more favored in single target. I do like the skill element this brings but at the same time I feel it should be more relevant as an aoe ability. I know this is sidetracked but this thread is getting to the point of discussing every issue snipers have lol.

 

yea I want to bring OS back as useful has a great animation and no real value except as pvp denial or preemptive casts.

[Make Marksmanship Great Again]

oddly i feel like if the old OS was returned it would work

 

adds a new ability to the rotation

increases complexity of rotation and energy management concerns

increase pve dps and allows for more sustained damage while moving

pvp burst wont change as it is highly telegraphed and evadable

[Does Hunker down not work sometimes?]

In PVE it doesn't block all controlling effects due to a bug (Like the missile people on Alderaan)

 

I remember seeing a thread about it around 2 years ago, with no fix.

 

In PvP, Diversion does break a Hunker Down.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=406027

 

they said to report it and they would fix it and never have fixed any of the issues identified.

[Make Marksmanship Great Again]

Marksman and snipers in general have several issues that are by design or working as intended. While i disagree with the methodology they are more or less where the devs want them to be.

 

This was stated in one way or another by the devs to more or less be how they think dps should rank

Sustained Melee +5%

Burst Melee/Sustained Ranged 0%

Burst Ranged -5%

+or- 1% snipers are at -5% from mid.

 

The general thought is that sustained has a dps loss due to target swap and ramp-up time and melee has to deal with range and movement to a greater degree than ranged. This would be valid way to balance classes in a practical environment. A ranged burst would need to have 10% more up time on the boss than a melee sustained to have equivalent dps. This is not the case on current operation bosses.

 

Many ops bosses some worse than others require constant movement this hurts mm snipers that need to be stationary 60% of the time to attack and any interruption during the casting periods is a dps loss more so because FT could not proc. So in actuality sniper uptime is less than 100% and melee sustained uptime is typically greater than 90%. While it has been some time since I played a veng jug i expect they could use a dps boost or change to prevent breaking of ravage.

 

Other issues include:

Oddly BW seems to have a mentality that sustained dps needs to be DoT based/target based. A sustained direct damage class could buff himself overtime to create an internal ramp-up (if desired) that allows target swap. But I digress.

 

Snipers mm especially a turret class. In order to make operations interesting they have started adding in lots of movement and added abilities that bypass entrench.

 

In fights with adds the balance is off. It is more practical for dps to use mass aoe than to single target. The bonus to some classes aoe abilities are massive and far easier to sustain than suppressive fire. OS is horrible and grenade doesnt work in operations as the splash only hits weak and standards. Long story short the target swap abilities of mm are negated by the super powered aoe.

 

BW seems to have forgotten about solid cover points. No operation boss has solid cover. At this point it is a pvp utility and a pve curiosity.

 

In pvp the mobility requirement of ops bosses goes out the window. In reg you can sit and free cast and in arenas the strat seems to be burst and move and go for the executes.

 

I dont want to see MM with more DoTs unless they are proc by existing abilities. I wouldnt mind seeing MM start to look more like combat in creating the equivalent of gore windows or generating something similar to combo points or a secondary resource that could be spent to buff attacks.

 

TLDR

MM is a turret in a raid environment that doesnt allow turrets, a burst/target swap where neither is highly useful, and given a dps penalty that is not equivalent to its advantages to allow for equal dps in practical situations.

[sniper marksman shields all of them still bad]

with the necro of old ops it turns out several of the things listed in this thread are still true. I assume they are still being worked on.

[Sniper/Gunslinger Set Bonus Discussion]

Hey everyone,

 

We wanted to take a moment to reach out to the community to collect ideas on set bonuses. We are looking for opinions on current and previous set bonuses as well as concepts for future. This thread will cover Snipers/Gunslinger.

 

Note: Our intent is to have set bonuses not increase DPS by more than 5%. Please keep this in mind when posting your suggestions.

 

Current Level 60 Set Bonuses (for reference)

• 2-Piece: Activating Explosive Probe, Ambush and Lethal Shot or Sabotage Charge, Aimed Shot and Dirty Blast increases damage dealt by 2% for 15 seconds. Cannot occur more than once every 30 of seconds.
  
• 4-Piece: Reduces the cooldown of Target Acquired or Illegal Mods by 15 seconds, and activating either ability restores 15 energy.
  
• 6-Piece: Laze Target or Smuggler's Luck now has 2 charges and its duration is doubled.
  

Cheers, all!

The SWTOR Combat Team

 

Well if you really want my opinion.

 

The current set bonus is ok the extra crit for mm is great less spectacular for others. I would hope that any future set bonuses do not alter the rotation. They should be bonuses not massive changes to play style.

 

That being said I think I would prefer it if dps boosts (direct damage increases) should be included with the skill trees. The set bonuses should reflect their origins they are from group content and should improve group synergy. For example:

 

reduce cooldown of ballistic shield by x secs

all allies within x meters gain x% accuracy

[Sniper vs Assassin]

you end up with several disadvantages but you can force a draw or delay them significantly to call for help.

 

1. place your self in a position to take full advantage of spotter removing their ability to get first hit.

2. if they hit deflection you hit target acquired doesnt cancel it out but sure helps.

3. if they hit the force tech resist stop using tech abilities.

a. keep in mind leg shot and the knockback on SoS/penetrating is not tech it is physical.

4. dont use diversion if they have the tech immunity up wait for their buff do drop use evasion, shield probe, roll etc.

5. dont forget to refresh ballistic damp or pop ballistic shield.

 

generally you need to force them to use their defenses without losing too much health. If you can flashbang them while they have deflection or root/knockback during deflection you can do well. The problem is if an assassin doesnt want to die he wont combat stealth and phase walk give the best escapes.

[Update on Win-Trading and Griefing in Season 4]

i would love to see regular wz maps have a ranked option. would probably see more people play, limit griefers, and objective play has different balance issues than deathmatch opening the field to more classes.

 

team ranked needs to run on a different system by having different ranking tiers for rewards and only granting points over particular values against teams with ranking scores. even requiring static teams that are registered with a group with team score. the creation of teams also allows for better tracking and limiting groups made to grief.

[Update on Win-Trading and Griefing in Season 4]

Hey folks,

 

• Win-traders – We have been reviewing multiple sets of data, along with the private reports that many of you have been sending to the team. Any player who, through validating data, is win-trading is receiving will be receiving at a minimum, a warning. Not only are we warning these users to stop what they are doing, continued win-trading will lead to greater actions including resetting their ratings and suspension time.
  
• Griefer – Those players that seem to have that one singular purpose, to ruin the spirit of Ranked PvP. They refuse to participate, or they leave the match altogether. Those players will be receiving anything from a warning to suspension time based on the severity of their actions.
  

 

so.... what you're saying is unless they are very obvious about it you wont do anything? any 60 can go in with any gear level. as long as they try to attack and/or heal something you cant take action against them. Maybe they are just really bad and only wear gear they like the look of. There is nothing to differentiate someone who has bad gear and plays poorly from someone who just wants to grief.

[I think this is why PvP specs are not the same FotM than in PvE]

only 1 to 1 in a vacuum. If you chain mezz the healer and interrupt the crap out of him when he is not stunned then two pressure DPS can easily (like by a mile) put up way more DPS than the other team's HPS. You also forget that every tank has a healing debuff now.

 

And then there is hatred which can run around doing more DPS than a healer 1 to 1.

 

yes and the healers own tanks can taunt (and all the other dps that have taunts) to reduce dps output by 30% (trauma is only 20%) this also is healer HPS + targets HPS (and other defenses) vs overall sustained.

 

anyway the point of my post was to point out that the dps specs for pvp tend to be burst specs for various reasons. pressure/sustained builds are not bad for pvp its better if you have the dps output and defenses of hatred.

[I think this is why PvP specs are not the same FotM than in PvE]

Tell that to every pressure comp, oh and don't forget about hatred.

 

k

 

Every pressure comp and hatred.

 

burst is better. why?

sustained healing surpasses sustained dps

general defenses delay/negate effectiveness of sustained allowing more time for healing (shields, self heal)

burst allows you to kill healers

pressure builds need to be combined with burst builds unless pressure outstrips healing

burst allows faster kills in 1v1 (this concept ignores the defenses which is half the reason why hatred does well)

burst reduces reaction time. (killing a sorc before they can barrier)

burst requires less prep time decreasing enemy ability to interrupt the sequence.

burst has generally better target switching

 

hatred has burst btw

[I think this is why PvP specs are not the same FotM than in PvE]

....burst > sustained in pvp

 

for many reasons

[PvP Tanking Help]

Greetings,

I am looking for a dye color (also possible armor set but mostly color combination) that is so blindingly horrible to see you feel obligated to shoot at it to prevent permanent damage to your eyes. or at the very least forces you to look at it from halfway across the map

[3.0 Changes Opinions]

oh its pretty bad for marksman.

 

I dont have the damage profiles of all the classes and specs but going by current info mm will rely on 90% of the damage to be single target ranged attacks with CD filling in the final 10% (might be more). In any fight requiring (or benefiting from) multiple damage types (aoe, internal/ele, force/tech) the more hybrid damage profiles will likely come out on top. Arsenal will have better aoe than mm with the same single target dps so any fight with additional targets arsenal steps ahead.

 

The loss of purge on evasion makes things bad in pvp (3.0 has jacked up the amount of dots by massive amounts). no new abilities with the loss of some abilities (i assume to fight bloat). generally very lackluster and nothing to look forward to except the extra aoe dot ability on CG.

[His name was Tom-Phelix...]

jesus christ necro

 

wouldnt that be after 3 days?

[Jedi Knight - the most powerful class story-wise?]

You keep saying "ranking". What do you want? An official statement saying the inquisitor can do over 9000 damage in a single attack? Nowhere in lore discussions (or at least any Star Wars lore discussions I've ever seen) do participants simply throw numbers at each other. You may be thinking of gameplay.

 

if you got them. you can only compare apples to apples.

 

So by that logic Satele Shan and all the other Jedi descended from Revan and Bastila are also chumps? Force power can skip a generation or two. And again, no one's going to quote you a number. What do you want a midichlorian count?

 

so if someone has force power and a powerful ancestor they are equal in that power is that how you think it works? Bloodlines can create weak, strong, moderate, and non-existent force abilities. Having a bloodline alone does not give or measure your power the end result covers the entire spectrum.

 

Yeah you're not always going to get such cookie-cutter comparisons. As for that statement you love so much, who said it? Someone at Imperial Intelligence? What do they know of the dark side? You're giving me **** solely because Thanaton didn't have a in-universe fanboy on the sidelines going "he's the greatest"?

 

you mean the fact that no one in universe ever said he was stronger than jadus or otherwise ranked him yes. and if you choose to believe imperial intelligence has worked along side the sith for 1000 years and has yet to learn how to tell which side to butter their bread on. please the dc room is probably bugged with ever sith house and ship. they dont need to feel the force to count midichlorians or record defeats victories or general comments and beliefs. imperial intelligence probably has a better understanding of which sith ranks where than any individual.

 

Ps. This has already been talked about here. It gets off-topic quite a bit and isn't really conclusive but also explains more about Nox's ghosts if you were wondering.

 

the power of plot armor or that everyone says jadus is powerful and thanaton was middle of the road. he is a quote from that thread about jadus "he held part of his flagship intact while the rest of it exploded. In addition, simply being near Jadus caused physical distress from the Dark Side power leaking out."

 

thanaton is the herbert the pervert of the dark council

 

In a nutshell: You continue to hold on too much to some things (i.e. things you like that support your claim) and dismiss others that are just as valid if not more.

 

in a nut shell any ability used by every sith is generic force lighting is the sith equivalent of a blaster bolt. all your quotes "the most powerful of sith lords" "great power" "great affinity" have no value statement. a member of the dark council is by definition "one of the most powerful sith lords" the sis agent had "great strength of will".

 

lol firing practices, for Sith?

 

Thanks, I needed that. Anyway Sith don't really get fired. Unless you mean literally set on fire. With lightning.

 

well either the emperor gets tired of the people not doing their job and sends wrath or the remaining DC just gang up on him. does the DC have a chair? oooo the treasurer of the DC now thats the guy you want to be.

 

No it was standard treatment. Cipher Nine wouldn't have been the first agent to be seen as a threat.

 

And this has nothing to do with the SIS agent who a) wouldn't have the exact same brainwashing and b) even if he did it wouldn't save him from the Force.

 

the sis agent had force barriers on his mind put in place by someone. do cipher agents get the same treatment? and who placed the force barriers?

 

There's a right way and a wrong way of doing it. Or to be more specific, there's the mature, rational way (that's no less nerdy) and then there's "No, mine's better!" Sadly this is falling in the latter category.

 

exactly. You are trying to compare A to B. If A beat C and C lost to B. You know A and B are stronger than C. If B lost to C you know A is probably stronger than B tho the rock paper scissors rule may apply.

 

In this case: A is known to be the strongest. B is known to be second in power to A. C refused to challenge D because "reasons". The assumption being he couldnt win. I suppose you could keep yelling about how C won track and field, killed a puppy, and was considered to be "powerful" by some unknown person.

 

And actually, the agent story isn't him "taking out stronger people", it's about the plight of the regular Imperial under the tyranny of the Sith and later the plight of normal people everywhere in the face of never ending war between Force-powered *******es. Discussing things like that is interesting. Saying "the Agent is totally Space Batman!!" is... considerably less so.

 

yes its the story of a man put in a position where his masters are stronger and he must obey till he must confront them and does....and wins. then gets punished for doing his job. the non force sensitive required to police the force sensitive. Right the agent the tip of the spear of most feared intelligence agency in the galaxy armed with Black Codex and the resources of imperial intelligence lacks the capacity to be the batman of star wars.

 

I never said he's untouchable. But he's not the chump you make him out to be.

he is a powerful sith in a public position of power. the agent never kill anyone like that before.

lol no he isn't. You want to play your own game and give me a feat that proves this?

baras bound the sith entity (a stronger force spirit than any of the ones the inquisitor bound)

and the main issue is he either convinced or intimidated every DC member to accept him the entire corellia chapter for the warrior is about breaking baras power so the intimidated DC members would break from him. Which includes Thanaton so either thanaton got scared of baras because blackmailed him or the jedi strike force, agreed with him (unlikely with thanaton being such a traditionalist) or fell for the con (he is too smart for that).

 

He wouldn't have been there, he'd have been on Corellia getting his *** whupped by the Inquisitor. The Inquisitor finale happens after the Warrior- Vowrawn is present for the Inquisitor's fight, in the Warrior's he just got there and walks in with him.

 

so back to what i said before he was one of the members who fell into baras hand.

 

Being intimidating? The fact remains Thanaton shows his power at multiple instances, Baras just whines and when he tries to do something he fails.

 

everytime thanaton did anything he failed. on corellia he just runs away tho he did take out a metal tube, when he fights the inquisitor each time he fails at killing her, his every move is ineffective. baras managed accomplish several of his own plans. thanaton is flashy but impotent. the writes for baras used Draahg as a proxy for baras so draahg can lose without baras looking weak (baras being stronger than draahg) everytime thanaton fires lighting you just see pretty colors and no one gets hurt.

 

Sorry Mario, your numbers are in another castle.

 

All canonical sources are assumed true unless proven false by an equal or greater canonical source. Source SWTOR: Jadus is the second most powerful sith after the emperor time period chapter 1. so you need to find a source greater than or equal to swtor that states thanaton was more powerful than jadus. otherwise canon stands.

 

That fight was clearly there to make Jango look good. But ultimately all he did was run away. So the net result is Jango can stand up and be a threat to Jedi. However anyone familiar with the lore would already know or at least assume that. So the net gain isn't much.

 

bounty hunter beats jedi master life saved by plot armor.

 

By this I assume you mean people that the knight etc.. killed?

 

 

Warrior: Yes, I don't consider Baras above Thanaton.

Agent: Yes. She never killed Jadus. The other targets don't even measure.

 

thanaton was controlled by baras as of sith warrior chapter 3. i guess you just want to deny baras had thanaton by the short hairs. The inquisitor never killed thanaton if you want to get technical. Darth Mortis did.

[Jedi Knight - the most powerful class story-wise?]

 

Force walking:

 

"Requiring great strength of will, a Sith could bind the restless ghosts of dead Sith to himself."

 

"The only Sith Lords who bound more than one ghost were Darth Nox and Lord Ergast himself,"

 

i was under the impression Darth Iratus and Darth Vilus had undergone something similar due to their journals being heavily referenced as the cure for the inquisitors problems.

 

"Tulak Hord had suspended Khem within a stasis field inside the tomb of Naga Sadow on Korriban guarded by a field of electrical energy for safekeeping, where even the most powerful Sith Lords would not try to free him."

All sources: Wookiepedia.

 

vague how powerful? "powerful" doesnt apply ranking information. I will submit the inquisitor is powerful for having done it.

 

I would provide in-game quotes but I don't feel like looking them up. The problem is, you're specifically ignoring lore and stated fact to support your claims. I'm happy to discuss them but if you just plug your ears and go "nope, nope" this will go nowhere fast. Otherwise:

 

His sanity? The fact that he was able to go behind Thanaton's back to find a cure, travel to two separate planets, do what he needed to do at each to get his cure along with any side quest shenanigans without succumbing is all the proof I need. What more do you want?

 

he wasnt the only one who was going insane. Darth Vilus apparently did at some point. there is no reference point for the depths of the insanity.

 

His bloodline is an integral part of his story, coming into play again and again. You dismissing it confirms my suspicion that I'm wasting my time.

 

i dismiss his bloodline because there is plenty of proof it has a low ranking in transferring force powers his prior ancestors were slaves with either minimal force power/ability. how much power his bloodline gave him is vague. He had a powerful sith ancestor who was killed. It took 4 assassins. how much strength transferred? is he stronger or weaker than kallig? if you want to rank you need values or at least comparative feats.

 

You know what's also not depicted? Him taking a ****. Didn't happen? I don't think so.

 

I'm not talking about the hypothetical powers of a sith sorcerer now. I'm talking about what's coded in the game. If he can use them, that means he has the power, skill and mastery to use them. Therefore your point is invalid.

 

as long as you acknowledged that his mastery of them is also what is coded and/or displayed in the game i agree.

No my problem is believing that Sith is really the second most powerful in the Empire. If that's true, they're really screwed.

 

As I don't think the contradiction or its implications were intended, I can only conclude that this was an oversight.

 

it wasnt and oversight the sith are screwed. our only hope is the new guys get stronger. if it was an oversight is hasnt been addressed and until it does it is true.

 

That's rich, you accusing me of denial. How about I use your "logic"? I never saw Jadus do what Thanaton did. Didn't see it, didn't happen.

 

there either needs to be a comparative feat. (one lifting an x-wing the other failing to lift the x-wing) or a specific statement regarding relative strength. Jadus has the statement. Its part of his charm even baras tried it when he told the warrior to kill a rival and he wouldnt as his power would seem more if his apprentice did it. It doesnt need to be displayed if it is acknowledged.

 

Provide proof he "has to". And also provide proof he wouldn't be able to deal with it when it came.

 

never said he couldnt deal with it only that it would be harder. Any leader must lead. He has a power base he has to remain in contact with to maintain and build. he can use an apprentice but there is a connection. getting to the DC doesnt mean he gets to sit in the shadows and do nothing. he is the head of Sphere of Ancient Knowledge. i guess he could i dont really know the firing practices of the DC for people who dont do their jobs.

 

 

 

Why waste time actively using the Force when some mundane chemicals will do the job permanently? I think you're overlooking one fact: the brainwashing wasn't special to Cipher Nine, it was standard procedure for Intelligence operatives that might potentially be able to resist the Sith. Nine wasn't the only one who got it. This was institutionalized. It would be a colossal waste of Sith resources to actively mind trick all these agents all the time, not to mention counterproductive as this would dull their creativity, ingenuity and leave them as little more then drones. The brainwashing on the other hand ensured complete loyalty (read: control) with all skills remaining and zero further effort.

 

for regular agents maybe but cipher 9 had a lot of direct contact with a DC member and it was specific orders from the DC because they feared him that made it happen. i would be surprised if there werent some agents given the same treatment as the sis agent you keep bringing up.

 

Apparently not, as Marr gets right into it.

 

the thing about phone numbers is someone has to have it. nothing preventing it from jumping through a secured transmission line first. Hell the number of times in the agent story he checks the line is secure is high.

 

"Nope! Nope! He doesn't have what the game and lore claims he has! My fictional character beats your fictional character!"

 

Dude if you want to fanboy about the agent, do it somewhere else. I'm not dissing the agent, I love their story and freely admit they're a genuine ******. What I don't condone though is ******** on other characters to do it and coming in with these childish comparisons and arguments. I'm sorry, it's not a personal attack, but everything I read from you from "well what if we threw him into the sun" to "nope he can't do that, my agent is better!" just reminds me of comic book "discussions" I used to have when I was 12. You even started this with referencing the "Batman always wins thing" which in case you haven't noticed is mostly a joke and taken as a pop culture trope, not taken seriously. Batman is the Chuck Norris of comics. You can drop the Batman card and everyone chuckles and go "yeah he wins" but no one thinks it's realistic or plausible in the slightest, any more than Chuck Norris having another fist under his beard. *gets knocked out by Chuck Norris' third fist*

 

Ow. Anyway, if you want to have your fun making your Agent Batman go ahead. Just don't expect that to be taken seriously in more grounded conversations.

 

what part of a forum discussion about which class in a game based on a fantasy universe that has more or less stated SWTOR is if not fully partially non-official isnt reminiscent of "comic book arguments" i referenced the batman thing because A: i know the joke B: the most popular agent ending is the "batman" ending and C: the agent's story is about him taking out stronger people from a disadvantaged position with intelligence and skill and clever tools.

 

so everytime you say the inquisitor is untouchable because x i point out how he can be touched.

 

Second in power to the Emperor which, given his position as head of intelligence could mean power in terms of influence over the other Sith and the Empire, and not actual strength in the dark side. You seem to be missing the point of teh agent story and the agent themselves which is subtlety not, 'rawr I rek everything"

 

so your version is a relatively weak force user who is considered more powerful than the most powerful force users. Fine agent still beat him. and i acknowledged the agent is weak in the darkside. The question of the thread wasnt who is the most powerful force user its who is the most powerful.

<-- and no one believes him either.

doesnt matter he is strong enough to make him be accepted

<-- Possibly because his traditionalist views, not out of any fear or feeling of inadequacy. This is the man who demanded to be made a Dark Lord after years of **** upon by the Dark Council and who swore he'd make them "answer for" allowing Kallig to continue challenging him. He's got the balls, if nothing else. Which is more than I can say for Baras.

 

sure and his power base was weak when baras would have made his move not sure of thanaton was there when baras did his thing in the DC chambers. but at the time he would either be an ally of baras or forced to accept him tho maybe he didnt care. no matter what baras was unchallenged i doubt thanaton's traditional views would have allowed him to let a pretender take the mantel of voice.

 

Baras can't extract information from a simple SIS agent despite being at it for days and Jadus isn't seen doing anything. Baras' cunning and diplomatic skills are emphasized to explain his rise (not his power in the dark side). Ironic that both Baras and Thanaton mirror their deposers. Baras is pampered and overrated, Thanaton was a slave who's master fell out of favor and had to fight against his circumstances and demand his power.

 

the SIS agent didnt put the block on it was done by a force user. who may be stronger than everyone. i dont recall if it was named. Or it was just a special technique that couldnt be overwhelmed it was designed to prevent it. if thanaton was able to break a similar block then he goes above baras. thanaton survived a mark of his power but survival doesnt mean he gets top spot. What did Baras fail at that Thanaton accomplished?

 

Now Jadus I admit is cool and I'm not about to dismiss him the way you would, were our interests reversed. Even though he isn't seen doing anything I accept that he's a powerful and influential Sith. Which is why I keep saying he's wasted in the agent storyline that only calls for a Sith to be creepy and ineffectual and to get taken down by a level thirty-something non-Force user. It's a disservice to him, an insult even. It doesn't bring the agent up to an equal footing to the Sith as it lowers him to the level of regular chumps. Which is why I've said Jadus and Baras should've switched.

 

jadus had a better writer. a writer who knew that the unknown with whispers of his great power and calmness is far more intimidating than overt displays. baras' personality would have been far more enjoyable to overcome for the agent. His random angry outbursts and killing would have given almost a vader like feel to the intelligence environment would have made an interesting twist. But it didnt happen.

 

so the agent defeating the second ranked sith lowers the sith but the inquisitor getting slapped by an unranked lord makes the lord appear strong?

 

Jango Fett was taken down like a ***** by Mace Windu. Not that it's a shame to lose to Mace Windu, but are you telling me the most ****** Mandalorian of his time would just continue firing like an idiot at the Jedi Master rushing him and deflecting every bolt? Makes me think he was overrated as well. No doubt fanboys will come at me with "his jetback was broken, what do ya want?" Fine, where's all his other gadgets? Flamethrower, grappling hook, wrist missiles? All the stuff he used on Obi-wan? My merc would've done a better job. As for Obi-wan the Kamino encounter would be like his Chapter 2 so I don't judge him. Especially not in the face of what he accomplishes later.

 

jango died like a chump to windu and did great against obi-wan. is obi diminished for losing to jango or is jango strong for winning?

 

i'll even put it to you like this:

the inquisitor could be more powerful than everyone. But he never killed anyone more powerful than than the knight warrior or agent.

[Jedi Knight - the most powerful class story-wise?]

The fact that he IS a sorcerer means he has an affinity for the dark side itself so at the very least he has the potential to be one of the most powerful Sith of his time. Though it is obvious the final duel shows he has clearly reached a great deal of this potential.

 

And he does not "start with nothing". He is the heir of Kallig and Tulak Hord by bloodline and by conquest. That's not nothing. Also the ability to bind and eventually fully dominate four powerful Force ghosts when even one is dangerous clearly indicates great power and skill. As does binding a Dashade while still an acolyte (not even a full apprentice). None of the Jedi classes accomplish feats as impressive on their starter planet. He's relatively unnoticed at first because he's a slave, not because he's powerless. If he was weak in the Force or even only average, chances are he wouldn't have even made it to Korriban for training. Despite Harkun's moaning that they let anyone in these days, weaklings are still culled (as seen in the very beginning of the story) and Kalling being a slave (and an alien if you chose to play one) would've made it all the worse. .

 

There is no evidence that learning the ritual was hard or binding the Dashade he was just the first one there. The only hard part keeping multiple force ghosts in line and he wasnt the first to do that nor did he show any significant ability in maintaining his sanity the texts zash researches for him indicate he isnt the first. His bloodline is meaningless. His force power could be anything it is part of the lore that anyone with any lvl of force sensitivity is sent to korriban if they are weak they die.

 

The story also takes place over years or at least a number of months. Even though the story may seem continuous more time passes then would obviously be practical to show. Thus I reject the notion that "every step of his training is documented". Finally, though the abilities you actually use to play the game are of course gameplay, they still represent some "lore" abilities that are not to be sneered at. The sorcerer could potentially master all forms of lightning and generate massive storms, cause force afflictions and pure waves of dark side energy that drain life instantly or over time and/or become a master of using the dark side to boost his longevity and heal. All in all, you're not giving him nearly enough credit.

 

right the writes gave the inquisitor force powers he never used and never showed him learning to make sure he had all the powers of your version of the inquisitor. Everything you list is something he could learn but never did. Anything not depicted or specifically mentioned didnt happen.

 

 

Thanaton still displayed strength and skill that made him a worthy foe. Much more than Baras certainly. Much more than Jadus too, I might add whose character development and powers begin and end at creepy. Having "Number 2 Sith" in your biography is well and good but if you don't demonstrate that and get knocked off early by a non-Force class... it's difficult to keep saying that with straight face.

 

So your problem is you cant comprehend a non-force user beating a force user even when it happened.

 

 

You're getting things twisted, man. If the hero gets slapped down by the villain constantly it means the villain is a credible threat, not that the hero is weak. Depending of course on how it's executed. Thanaton proved his strength and skill.. because he was shown as having great strength and skill. Contrast that to Baras, who constantly whined, had other people do his dirty work and couldn't even torture an SIS agent right and Jadus who... again was just being creepy. Also if you bring in stated lore for Jadus (number two Sith) then you must accept stated lore for Thanaton: as an apprentice he spent days alone fighting for his life in Korriban's crypts with nothing but a training blade and his power in the dark side to save him, when he was cast out for his master's treachery, he won numerous battles on the front line and he succeeded in tracking down and eventually killing the apprentice of the Emperor himself. His victories enabled him to demand the title of Dark Lord from the Dark Council and even when he was defeated by Kallig, Darth Marr acknowledged his worth. As for Jadus, I'm sorry, he was utterly humiliated. Like I said before, you did not need a Sith of Jadus' caliber to make the points you needed to make in the agent story. Indeed, in terms of proving the flaws in hierarchy, a "dumber" Sith would've worked better. And in terms of Cipher Nine's ability to survive and even overcome a Sith, a run of the mill Sith would've accomplished the job perfectly. Saying the Sith she defeated was the second most powerful does not make that point. It breaks credibility for the whole scenario.

 

Sure Thanaton did "stuff" everything he did showing his power put in a giant pile and rank it under Jadus. At no point was Thanaton ever considered stronger than Jadus by anyone. And all your criticisms of Jadus and the agent story dont matter. As far as SWTOR lore is concerned Jadus was number 2 and the agent beat him. You dont find it believable you wish he was some random weaker sith primarily because you view force users as better than non-force users. That is just denying what happened.

 

 

Not sure what this has to do with anything. I suppose I could just say that you have the option of purging all Thanaton's followers, rendering this entire point moot. But beyond that who says he can't hide? I actually imagine him spending most of his time on his ship (or other vessels he personally controls) plotting his schemes and gathering his secrets. Which would literally make him a difficult target. And should I even bother mentioning the world of pain waiting for anyone who's dumb enough to actually go up against him and also against Marr's decree against infighting?

 

it means he was protected and free an unknown target. Holding the dark council position is harder as now he is a known public target. He cant hide because he has his office in Kaas City and the Dark Council meetings on korriban sure he can use a holo but he has to have some public presence in order to rule anything.

 

 

His mind can't be brainwashed, using the previous techniques. Nothing in there about Force persuasion, or more likely Force domination.

 

 

right so the combined might of the most powerful sith in the galaxy used a chemical substance to alter the mind of the agent because....reasons. If they could use the force to alter the agents mind they would have. Given imperial intelligence's relationship with the sith they would have used some sort of mental block training.

 

 

And given that the Agent still hangs around the fleet and if you do Makeb, Marr calls you up like it ain't no thing, you haven't quite disappeared completely.

because the agent couldnt just have a holo channel he monitors

 

Still don't know what you're trying to accomplish here. Saying the agent is better than the inquisitor? Hell if anything, it's the agent who hasn't realized their full potential yet.

 

 

Sure you have the Black Codex and can become the new Space Illuminati. But that doesn't mean you're there yet. Plenty of people know your face, in terms of immediate tangible resources you only have one ship and five individuals following you, limited on-hand credits and limited avenues for getting more (at least for now). It'll take some time to set up a new network to begin moving planets on a galactic scale (or to recover, repair and retool) the Star Cabal one. Doesn't happen overnight. And when you do, you'll have the power to make grand political changes without anyone knowing, sure. Doesn't mean you can just start knocking off Sith Lords personally.

 

 

Actually after he heals his mind and body he is never shown unconscious again. So I challenge this claim. He staggers, but is not knocked out.

 

That being said... really? We're really gonna play this game? "Oh he's not invulnerable to everything!!" Well guess what, this is Star Wars, not grade three in the playground. Nothing is invulnerable to everything. Doesn't diminish it one bit. The only entity in this game who can claim this kind of immortality or greater is the Emperor himself. You gonna tell me the Emperor sucks because he can be tossed out an airlock? I don't think so. Based on this consideration, maybe Kallig is the real number two Sith.

 

You just said

while the Inquisitor commands the ghosts he's practically immortal. That could also mean that when he collapses at the end of Chapter 2 his biological processes actually stop and thus he fades from the Force, looking to any onlooker, including Thanaton to have actually deceased. Meaning he is actually resurrected.

 

The inquisitor isnt immortal he never defeated any ranked sith. He never learned anything that would prevent him from getting ganked. he isnt permanently surrounded by force barrier. he can be killed by a well planned attack the kind of attacks agents specialize in.

 

but just for fun lets play a game according to lore (as evidenced by conversation options) you get this ranking excluding various other dark council members for their relative powers.

 

emperor

Jadus: specifically listed as second to emperor

Baras: power such that he could claim to be voice and no one would challenge (jadus is gone at this point).

Thanaton: not listed as 2 and not one who would challenge Baras.

 

Based on kills: Knight(ish) Agent Warrior Inquisitor. based on the hand approaching the warrior it is likely he topped jadus and baras towards the end. Thanaton was alive and on the DC when it was said no one would challenge Baras. Find one piece of lore that says thanaton was stronger than jadus or baras.

 

AND. jango fett gave obi wan a run for his money on kamino. so how does obiwan and jango rank against theses classes.

[Jedi Knight - the most powerful class story-wise?]

 

 

For the inquisitor I refer you back to my discussion of what Sith Sorcerers are supposed to be capable of lore-wise. Beyond that Thanaton "double-tapping" would accomplish nothing as it's pretty clearly implied that while the Inquisitor commands the ghosts he's practically immortal. That could also mean that when he collapses at the end of Chapter 2 his biological processes actually stop and thus he fades from the Force, looking to any onlooker, including Thanaton to have actually deceased. Meaning he is actually resurrected. If that's too crazy for you can also chalk it up to Thanaton's arrogance as a character flaw, but it does not diminish the Inquisitor one bit. No more than the Knight is diminished for getting insta-stomped and mind controlled at the end of his Chapter 2.

 

what sorcerers are supposed to be and what the inquisitor was/is arnt the same. this is the origin story every scrap of power gained by the inquisitor was documented. only two force techniques were learned force walking and dream walking everything else is basic. he just doesnt have the background prior to his arrival on korriban he was a slave and his force abilities werent considered to be spectacular. compared to the jedi classes who are assumed to have gone through significant training prior to the story start the inquisitor has nothing. At this point in the story there is the opportunity to learn all of the rituals. an affinity sure but without the knowledge its nothing his potential is better then everyones but he hasnt reached it yet.

 

knight getting stomped by the biggest bad isnt as bad as the inquisitor being stomped by a Lord or recent council member. Thanaton didnt reach the dark council till after chapter 1. Not even the most powerful member i think baras was stronger than thanaton.

 

In general I wouldn't judge any characters as weak if they falter in the middle of their story because... it's the middle of their story. Kallig's actions at the end of the story speak for themselves. And if you think holding a Dark Council spot is more impressive than merely obtaining it, keep in mind Thanaton was on it for quite a while...

 

As for the agent, Jadus was Worf'd and you know it. Second most powerful Sith, loses to a normie.Yeah, sure... You can't have it both ways. He was wasted in that role, pure and simple.

 

sure its part of the basic story arc 1: establish 2: setback 3: victory

however the inquisitor is the only one who gets slapped down so often and he hasnt proven himself strong enough to establish how strong thanaton is. zash was nothing and the emperor was well established as the guy to beat for the knight. sure jadus got worfed but it still does its job in establishing the agent's power. Jadus (a sith sorc just like the inquisitor) is the second most powerful sith and he lost to a normie thats the story.

 

 

Thanaton's hate for the inquisitor protected him. anyone with odds against thanaton would either help or refuse to hinder the inquisitor and anyone wanting thanaton's support would report and stay out of the way. The inquisitor established a power base late prior to that he remained hidden and mobile. Now as a council member he cant hide and any unknown adversary can attack known and established allies of the inquisitor. killing a dark council member is tough but it will be harder to maintain it anyone with thanatons views will see the inquisitor as a threat.

 

As much as I love the agent, they are not Batman. It's impressive enough that they can stand up to some Sith and not get stomped instantly. No need to get carried away.

 

the agent has the training and the knowledge and the experience to take down sith.

His mind cant be tampered with

and unlike the inquisitor he cant be tracked.

 

the inquisitor is not immortal durable but not unkillable. it is established he can be rendered unconscious and be cut and bleed. His force defenses may even be specific to force attacks but assuming they arnt and he is immortal he can just as easily be tossed into a star out of an airlock or stuck in an incinerator after being rendered unconscious.

[Jedi Knight - the most powerful class story-wise?]

i have to say i considered the consular and inquisitor to be fairly lame in the power rankings

 

 

Inquisitor kept fighting Thanaton and losing or at least not winning hell the reason the inquisitor didnt die at the start of chapter two is because Thanaton didnt double tap and make sure that corpse was dead. The inquisitor got on the council because he killed thanaton and they even said well what did you think would happen. Not like they could put anyone else in charge of him he didnt earn it just took it which is fine for sith but holding on to it is harder.

 

the consular defeated a child of the emperor....a vessel for a portion of the emperor's power with a split personality. he never had a chance.

 

the agent scores a lot higher due to Jadus being second only to the emperor. Baras wanted to be jadus just sucked at it. neither thanaton nor baras could match jadus' power (end of chapter 3 vs chapter 1). the agent was punished for being able to challenge a dark council member. the dark council feared him so much they placed the mind control on him.

 

 

i dont know if you ever looking into comic book arguments who would win in a fight batman vs (blank) and batman is assumed to win anything if given time to plan (by some). as far as any class story the agent if required could eliminate every other class with planing. As for fighting both the sniper and operative are first strike classes. So unless the target is always protected or senses the attack before it occurs the fights end fast and early.

[Stun locked to death]

#2, The time to kill in this game is absurdly fast in many cases. 2 or 3 people can kill someone in 3-4 seconds very easily, sometimes less if they time their burst correctly. 4 People can basically global someone.

 

i think this is the biggest issue. if defenses are increased across all classes such that stun lock death is impossible with 2 or fewer dps focusing stunning will taken on an entirely new dimension. the only problem this creates is it makes winning in some wzs harder because of respawn timers so some adjustments would be needed there.

[Sniper // Gunslinger Top 3 Answers]

lets keep a few things in mind the 60% damage reduction from aoe on entrench is 27 points into the marksman tree only. Diversion is 11 points in the mm tree. heavy shot, ballistic dampeners, reduced cooldown on legshot, seek cover are all in MM.

 

The aoe damage reduction when entrenched was added so snipers would not feel required to abandon entrench when aoe is placed on top of them. with the change to entrench allowing you to move you could argue that it isnt needed anymore (as much as i enjoy it).

 

My biggest concern is the dev have altered the design philosophy of snipers from a pure ranged dps class to a utility class. Theoretically MM should be in line with carnage and lethality with annihilation and engineering with rage. With the utility aspect now in place snipers are not a dps class.

 

I would love for a new class to be a pure utility class (bard type) but sniper isnt the way to go. At the very least alter the talents so 1 spec can be high dps no/little utility.

 

The other question is how do you calculate utility? The value is dependent on the operation.

[Sniper // Gunslinger Top 3 Answers]

Rather than quote large amounts of text i'll just use the numbers

 

1.

Firstly i appreciate revealing you design philosophy that is helpful.

 

The old way of thinking makes sense. you need a reason to take pure dps class to a raid higher than average dps + utility solves the issue the non pure dps already have some built in utility so the pure ones needed artificial utility (by that i mean innate class ability to heal/tank vs no innate utility) This resulted in too much in favor of the pure dps classes so the ops grabbed the best they could.

 

so to fix the fact that you created high utility high dps you will now balance the utility vs the dps. This also makes sense. However, instead of making sure a pure dps class has high dps you are reducing the dps rather than the utility. would i hate to lose the utility yes but i'd like my dps class to be great at dps. Or at least have a high dps/low utility spec rather than a blanket dps reduction for the class. Personally i think the best way to increase the use of different classes in raids is to add cross-class combos and debuffs (such as in dragon age). Rather than nerf the use of a few classes incentivize the use of multiple classes.

 

The value of utility depends on how close to the edge your group is for your content. Utility becomes more useful in NiM than in HM. A NiM ops team doesnt need the utility to run HM. Maybe i am wrong but i dont think the ops are designed with specific utility abilities in mind except cleanse.

 

2.

yea i figured you guys didnt really have a solution its a puzzle. the maps themselves are bad for snipers due to the constant LoS issues. OS worked really well to keep people out of melee but that is trashed. A force camo like move would help without increasing pve survivability. Or have countermeasures work as a reverse taunt. Or just bring back ranked warzones with a solo queue option.

 

3. I dont think you should nerf scatter bombs till you fixed the spec. Maybe if you buff something else but this nerf before the fix thing is getting a little old. Its like telling a guy that can only use three fingers of his left hand you can chop off his hand now but the prosthetic wont be rdy for 12 months. Its like you think the lesser evil is to kill it now even tho it works rather than kill it and fix it at the same time. The OS nerf wasnt needed and could have waited till engineering was fixed. Samething is true with scatter bombs lets rip band-aide off with one pull.

 

 

@DieGhostDie yea i didnt want to be but signs were right there

@BradyJohnston lol sometimes the crazy guy telling you the end is coming is right.

[Sniper // Gunslinger Top 3 Answers]

i feel like i read something similar to this before somewhere.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=7486401#post7486401

 

i'll respond in detail later

[Time to vote for Gunslinger/Sniper Q&A (due for 6-6-2014)]

Answers are taking quite some time. Kind of gives me the feeling that they are taking this serious since the engineering question is in there as well.

I expect a good read soon

 

well the OP questions were picked up on 5/27 and posted on 6/16 14 week days

 

sniper is at 6/9 so 14 week days puts it at 6/27

 

tho guardians was 10 week days