I agree. This is always the case. PVP and PVE are always at odds with each other. In PVP, you are trying to gain the advantage over other classes. Thus the "flavor of the month" builds. (Can also go into the "medal hunters," top end gear, etc.) Where as PVE, is more of a cooperative effort to reach a common goal. There is still a competitive edge, but there is some cooperation built into it. Any time you have both in a game, you will always have people that whine when they aren't as good as someone else, and that the other person/class(es)/etc. need to be nerfed. From what I have seen of hard core PVPers, they aren't happy unless they are always on top.

Okay troll... Puck off. I am not (Nor will I ever be) a bad tank of any class. While I admit it's taking some getting used to, I am learning to manage it a bit differently. It did do a major shift in playstyle on the class. Also, this post got people talking about what would make it better. That's always a good thing. One other thing: Nerfs are NOT a good thing. WoW has been nerfing classes since around 1.1. Still not balanced.

If that's true, then I obviously was WAY beyond what you are saying. Also, just got done with Cademimu, and still noticed a huge difference, with an undergeared healer. (Mainly 61 and 63 pieces on the sage, with some pieces requiring level 55 to use, but still did better than the other places mentioned) Your numbers do not match my experience, though. I saw much more healing from the self heals than 4% dr should account for. Also, that "buff" someone called it, it's too time dependant, and gets lost quite often. Also, if it gets lost, you are lucky if you can get it back. Smaller mobs often die before the DR can get refreshed. One other thing I noticed, if you don't have 3 stacks of harnessed shadows when you use TkT, you do not get it refreshed, which is a downside. And as I noticed that I pretty much had to keep project constantly on CD, in order to have a chance at keeping the 4% DR from expiring, it makes it a lot harder to keep that up. And makes force usage an even higher priority than it used to be. Good job for you! *Golf clap* No, the healer didn't forget to cleanse on the mining boss. This happened several times, and a couple on mobs. As for your assassin, I doubt he would be saying the same thing if he were leveling that assassin. Or gearing him up in HMs, after leveling.

No, it wasn't a bad healer, as I saw his long cast med probe hitting about 10k heals. Those are the numbers for damage reduction while out of combat, so it probably does jump to 40.16%. As for your other questions, my defense is 25.35% (Jumps to over 29% with the pvp relic) with the fortitude stim, shield rating is 53.77% with kinetic barrier, and absorb is 37.69% without the 8% from kinetic barrier wearing down and the absorb relic proccing (I have observed it hitting over 60% during fights, pre-nerf). The gear hasn't changed since pre-nerf. I did jump the 78 armoring from a 69 armoring a month and a half before the nerf (And I did several HMs like that before the nerf that were still far less difficult, with differing healers, including some really bad ones). To say things have changed so much with only that one change in the game, and blaming it on the healer, is saying that it isn't responsible for what has happened. (It really is) The nerf has made it much more difficult to tank in HMs (something most people do for the extra ultimate and elite comms, and even then you need to do HMs to gear up toons for the ops) for shadow/assassin tanks. I can just imagine how much harder it must be for a person who is just starting out tanking HMs, with lesser gear. I should also mention how force breach also breaks CCs, as that 5% accuracy debuff is part of what makes the assassin/shadow viable as a tank.

I am well aware of the abilities. I am also aware of how much harder it is to play now, than it used to be. Tanking is (to use your terms) a master spec, normally. To make it so much more so by removing a huge part of what made the class viable as a tanking class, makes it even harder. Also, the 4% damage reduction that they provided does not equate to the amount of healing that you gained during most fights. Especially during long fights such as HM bosses, or during OPS. When I have 38k health (more than my other tanks), and see my health drop severely compared to my other tanks, it's hard to enjoy the class. (It was actually my favorite class, pre-nerf. It surpassed my vanguard, my first toon, for my favorite)

Dude, that wasn't a bad healer. I have run that HM numerous times with lesser geared healers, on different tanks (I have all three tank classes). I have only ever died, before, with really bad healers (ones that didn't cleanse the debuff on the first boss) or healers that were DPSing, instead of healing. I had run with that healer on another tank (my guardian) in Czerka Corporate labs HM. You sir, can stop trolling. I posted this to show the huge disparity between how much the self heals does to keep the tank alive, and now. Also, when I have to hit all my cooldowns on my shadow in order to keep alive, versus not having to do so on my other tanks, that also shows a huge disparity. Especially considering the huge difference in the gear levels. In an HM, a well geared tank should be able to pull groups through without dying, through use of cooldowns and such. This is not the case, after removing the self heals. This had an extremely huge and damaging effect on the viability of shadow/assassin tanks. If it is this apparent in an HM, it is much more apparent in an op, regardless of how good the healer is. Especially when it isn't just hammer station, as I stated previously. I noticed similar in Athiss. Thank you for trolling. Have a nice day.

I had been posting similar to this, in a different thread. I still think it's a good idea, so long as it's part of the story. (No, there should be no tie in with light/dark side) However, someone was telling me that one of the lead designers said it can't be done. (Yes it can, they are just too lazy to work as hard as it would take to do this) The best way to do faction defection is to make it a choice, as part of a story line. (FYI, they won't do it, because of how much work would have to go into the game from that point forward)

I understand that it was, most likely due to some issue in pvp. I get that. However, that SLIGHT buff to armor was no where near enough to overcome the HUGE loss of the healing. I just tanked Hammer Station for the first time on my shadow tank, since the nerf. And I had run with lesser geared healers on my shadow, and run through the instance several times with no problems. I just died twice in that run, outside of boss fights. That healing nerf was a HUGE loss. Especially since I have a Jedi Guardian and a Sith juggernaut in lesser gear, with higher armor. My shadow has two 61 armorings, one 69 armoring, one 78 armoring, and the rest are 72 armorings. And I have a 36.16 damage reduction with armor. On my Juggernaugt, I have four 61 armorings, one 66 armoring, and two 69 armorings. And on that, I have a 45.21% reduction with armor. Shadow/Assassin armor should not be that much lower than a much undergeared juggernaut. Tank is not a viable spec, without the healing, so long as the armor is that much lower. I get people were upset that in PVP that it was a bit over powered. Now, it's completely underpowered for pve. A much better solution would be to have the healing turned off, during pvp matches. Removing the healing done for a shadow tank destroys the viability of that tank. I noticed similar problems while running Athiss, yesterday. This is a huge problem that destroys the viability of an entire spec. This needs to be reversed, and institute the removal of healing from abilities, only in pvp.

I added a little to what I had previously posted. Might answer this, might not. Going to take the time to say it anyway: Yes, it's more difficult to write an expansion. Especially one that has a branch for each class. Yes, it will (to a certain extent, depending on where that branch is) double the work. This is why I say make it an option. Not necessarily an after thought, more of a possibility, based upon decisions you make during the course of the story progression. Kind of like they did with the Sith Warrior, for Jaesa. That way, people can go either side, if they so choose. No one is forced to go one side or the other. No one is taken on a story they don't want to go. They just play as they normally would, and through certain choices, get to choose the other side. Is that so bad that you would unsub over it?

I don't hang out on the forums. In fact there are usually only a couple threads I actually check into. Thank you for bringing that to my attention. However, the way you wrote it up makes it sound like actually putting it into the game as a possible choice isn't how it was discussed. That, to me, sounds like the idea of resetting the character, an putting them as the mirror class. In other words, resetting a Trooper as a BH. My suggestion is write the next part of the story, so it allows for it as a possibility, AND keep it possible to stay the same side if the player makes that choice. A split in the story. Kind of like choose your own path. Now, I will give you that it might be a technical nightmare to do it as a going back thing (at some point previous to max level, there is an option to switch sides, via cartel market, etc), but nothing stated says it can't be brought in as an expansion. Before you sit there and say I am not listening to what you have to say, I will say this is the most convincing argument against it I have seen in this entire thread. Having said that, I don't know you. I am a little skeptical to just take your word on this. I can just as easily say I had friends at the cantina event in Anaheim ask about it, and the technical director said they are working on it, just trying to figure out how to bring it about. IE, as an expansion, cartel market, etc. I hope you understand my point, there. Now, again, I am not saying base the expansion around defection, totally. Yes, there will be the option. Yes, it might even be a theme, for a class or two. However, for the most part I am trying to present it as a decision you can make in the process of the story, that allow for you to switch sides. I fail to see how that would be all that much of a technical nightmare. Now, here's why I say a few if/then statements: You can add in lines of code and (depending on if it's object-oriented coding or more C++ coding) functions, to decide where they go, which level the planets are, which fleet they go to, etc. So yes, it might be a bit more difficult. But, based upon what I know of programming from the classes I have taken, I don't really see the technical nightmare you are saying it is. At least, not the way I am suggesting they implement it.

Synthweaving is for Jedi/Sith stat equipment. Strength and Willpower. Armormech is for BH/Trooper/Smuggler/Agent stat equipment. Cunning and Aim. You don't need them for the other classes. Now, I agree that Synthweaving is a joke. As is armormech and armstech (To a major degree, but not as much as the other two). Cybertech allows you to pretty much level up all your gear as orange, and keep it at about the right level. Buy the occasional implant, and you can level to max, with almost no problems. Artiface, really only good at max level, due to being able to trade the relics. But it becomes really good, at that point. Synthweaving and armormech are useless after 50, because all you can make is modable pieces. Not even modable pieces that have stats. Just empty shells. At least armstech can, to some extent, make barrels. Big whoop. And yes, they can do the kits and the augments. Okay, but that's it. So these professions are going to make their money off of something that takes tons of credits to get specific pieces for? Even with all that aside, you still can't RE any armor with those two, above level 50. And some below level 50, you can't. Stuff added after the expansion isn't re'able. I have half a cargo hold full, on both my synth and mech.

Really? How do you know this? Do you work for Bioware? Are you a game programmer? Do you know a lot of game programmers? Your arguments mean nothing. They are assumptions at best. Having done some programming I can say it wouldn't be a technical nightmare. Just a simple if/then statement or two, to decide if they are republic or empire. From there, it's just adding on (which mainly means a lot of copy paste of code) for certain areas. As for it taking them years to work out the code, again not true. In fact, you could use existing planets, and add in rooms to existing areas. Kind of like they did with the fleets, several times already. Also, this would be new content. (Thus why I keep saying this should be an expansion) Care to try again?

It's not that different from the guild bank, just basing it upon legacy, and you don't need the invites to guild or any of the extra stuff that a guild bank has; like ranks, permissions, a ledger, etc. I would love to see this implemented! Addendum: This should be something granted as a perk for actually having a legacy, not need credits or cartel coins to purchase.

That's great. You add nothing to this discussion, if you can't give reasons. The whole "This idea isn't viable" excuse was covered (by me) way back in the thread. The whole "This is a stupid idea" excuse is your opinion. It's great you don't like it, but try giving reasons why you think it's so stupid, so I can refute them all. The "the classes are mirrors" excuse, has been covered (multiple times, again by me, as well as others) in previous posts. Go look for why they can still work with faction defection. The "If you want to play {Insert side here}" argument has been torn to shreds previously. Please, once again, go back and see appropriate posts to counter your argument. Other than that, I am excited to see so much enthusiasm for this idea. (Much prefer this to be an actual expansion, instead of a cartel market thing, but that's my personal preference)

I have been seeing this since before the free server moves, over on Jekk Jekk Tarr. It's been here for a while. Considering the length of time, shouldn't it have been fixed?