@ Part VI I can understand plot armor to a point, but if you have some character destroy an entire army with his magic mind powers only to be killed in five seconds by a handful of clones, it creates an inconsistence with the audience. In the back of their minds they are thinking, "wait didn't this Jedi have a hundred bad guys shooting at him before, and he didn't even break a sweat in deflecting all the shots, why doesn't he do the same thing here?" A perfect example of this is (like mentioned above) Obi-Wan moving at unimaginable speeds to evad the droidikas (sp?), but then is suddenly unable to do the same thing when trying to come to Qui Gon's aid. Plot armor enables a pivitol character to survive the story, but like any form of storytelling, it can be done poorly. If your character is god-like with plot armor on, but then instantly dies without plot armor, it creates a disconect with your audience. But if your plot armor mearly gives said character a slight edge in battle; forcing the character to have to "work" to stay alive; then you have them die to a handful of soldiers, the audience isn't as "jarred". People can get behind, root for, and then cry for a character that is thrust into a crazy situation and has to use their wits and skill to survive. A character that escapes danger by the skin of their teeth, and if need be, dies in a last stand, or as a sacrifice to help the other characters escape has depth. Not somebody with "GodMode" enabled that slaughters entire armies single-handedly, but then is killed by five guys because their "cheat code" wore off. A perfect example of good plot armor is Obi-Wan in episode IV, when he is sneaking through the Death Star to deactivate the tractor beam. Does he run straight through the station, killing all the stormtroopers he sees? No he uses stealth, he avoids all confrontation. Then after deactivating the tractor beam he sneaks back to the docking bay only to get caught by Vader. Now if the movie did have Obi-Wan carve a swath of destruction across the Death Star, would this fight scene carry as much weight? IMO no, firstly because we as an audience would have had a entire section of non stop action as Obi Wan killed everybody, making his battle with Vader seem lackluster in comparasion, but it would also rob the story of the build up to the fight; we would be unable to root for Obi Wan as he snuck through the battlestaion and hope that he escapes if the whole previous scence was just a mind-numbing action shot. IMHO Jedi and Sith are best in small (believable) doses; being the mysterious warrior monk, or terrifying scorceror; not some dime a doze archatype that really only exists to say: "Hey everybody look what I can do!"

I agree wholeheartedly with the above post; "Down to Earth" Jedi and Sith have the best character, when they are vulnerable and capable of dying we as an audience can empathize with the character and have fear when they are in danger. The way that certain parts of the EU would have it, is that if you are a character in the Star Wars universe you'd had better hope you are Force Sensitive, because if you are not, then you are regulated to being cannon fodder that the OP Jedi/Sith can try their powers out on, or a useless ally that can offer no help what-so-ever to the Force User. Acording to some EU sorces, having the force would instantly make one infanatly (sp?) better than a whole platoon of sodiers who had spent their entire adult lives training in warefare tactics, and had the advantage in numbers, or a whole army of robots, designed specifically for warfare and battlefield combat. Jedi/Sith are cool in small doses, but too much of anything is bad.

I will agree, the whole "Well I have the Force so I automatcally win at everything" take on Force Sensitive characters in the EU is a litte annoying. Perfect examples of this being Mace Windu in the Animated Clone Wars Series or Starkiller in the Force Uleashed. Granted these examples are at the far end of the spectrum, but it still the fact that whole tv shows, video games, and books have been devoted to the "Awesomeness" of Force Users is begining to grate on me. I mean if the Jedi/Sith are THAT powerful why even have non-Force users in the Star Wars galaxy? If the Emperor and Luke Skywalker can manipulate black holes, or send entire fleets across interstellar distances, then why even have an army? Just send your respective Jedi or Sith to the battlefield and watch as they would faceroll all opposition without breaking a sweat, all with their magical "I win" button called the Force. I prefer the "down to Earth" force users we see in the OT, characters that had depth and vulerabilites in combat (Luke getting shot in the hand in ROTJ) who's Force Sensitivity gave them a slight edge over their enemies. Not "gods" that pull star destroyers out of the sky with one hand while deflecting blaster fire from an entire platoon of Stormtroopers with the lightsaber in the other hand. Not only does this treatment of Jedi/Sith (IMO) detract from the characters that are force sensitive, (How are we as an audience suppose to feel empathy and fear for the characters when they just Force crushed an AT-AT two seconds ago and then find themselves caught in a Stormtooper ambush.) but it also makes any non-Force user have to be even more over the top if they are supposed to compete with said Jedi/Sith (Bobba Fet anyone?).

Granted Mace did not die to Order 66 but I was refering to the op-ness of the Jedi in general rather then one particular character. I know this is a kids show but still, making the Jedi out to be unequivable bada**es in the Clone Wars series stands in stark contrast to how quickly the jedi fell in episode 3. Personally I prefer the force users to be a little more "down to earth" in terms of power, being slightly above the rest of the creatures in the galaxy rather then: "Well I have the force and I automatically win at everything" perspective that we have seen in the past (Animated Clone Wars).

@ Numberjohnnyfive I can see your point about the animation style of the old series (I loved Dexter's Lab btw) my main gripe with the show is when people try to view it as a good narrative when, as you said it is not. Still for me personally, even viewing the animated series as just mindless action, I can not like characters that are that over the top. Now if you are making a comedy, such as Dexter's Lab or Power Puff Girls then I could see the characters doing things like that, not in a semi-serious take on action sequences.

@ PartVI Yes I will conceed to your counter point about my overanalyzing the droids in the show. And to the fact that I am a nerd (maybe not a purist nerd but a nerd non the less). I admit that I am kinda partial to robots in general (my favorite fictional characters are robots. ie Legion from Mass Effect 2, the Terminator, Warhammer 40K's Necrons, ect.) Its just annoying that the robots / droids in star wars are regulated to comedy relief (HK-47 and IG-88 notwithsanding). But on your point about character OP ness I would have to disagree on. IMO if a character is seen taking on an army of droids and not even breaking a sweat, then it kinda detracts from said character's death during Order 66. We as an audience are looking at the character and thinking to ourselves, "Wait, didn't this Jedi Master pretty much single handedly destroy the doid army on Planet What'sIt'sName? Why then is he dying in five seconds to a handful of clone troopers?" Not only that but I find it very hard to empathize with and fear for a character if they have been repeatedly shown to escape and triumph over insurmountable odds. In the back of my mind I am thinking that no matter what happens or who this character fights I know they are going to win. Sure we might have know that Luke and the Rebels were going to win in the end, but the fact that Luke was not facerolling the entire Imperial Fleet with his Force Powers; instead having to struggle and sacrifce things in his life; enabled us as the audience to empthize with and root for his character. I realize this is a kids show, and I realize that the CGI Clone Wars is no were near the OP-ness of the animated show (Any scene with Mace Windu) or the Force Unleashed, but having character's succeed with little to no effort on their part kinda instills a false sense of achievement into younger viewers minds wouldn't you say?

BrandonSM, I realize that the C3-PO, Jar Jar, ect. episodes are all about the kiddie appeal, I get that. What I don't understand however is why do the "kiddie" droids have to be in almost every scene were there is battle droids. I mean the Cade Bane arch is awesome and the episodes about Rex and the other clones are well done, and "kiddie-free" for the most part, I just don't see why the driods have to be regulated to comdic relfief, especially since they are supposed to be the main villians during ground and space "large scale" battles. Imagine the Cade Bane episodes were you always saw a slapstick bounty hunter following him (Bane) around, tripping over his own feet and saying really stupid things. Or a clone trooper who couldn't shoot strait, and would put his helmet on backwards. That is the annoyance I feel whenever the droids show up. Robots are supposed to be cool. The whole concept that you are fighting an enemy that does not feel fear, pain, pity, or remorse; an enemy that will not fall back, or retreat, or surrender is imdimidating; and is why the more serious takes on science fiction robots are so engaging. I mean I can not watch an episode that tries to humanize the clones; to show the audience that they are people too, with feelings and fears, and not just mindless killers, when the droids are not like that either. Kinda makes it hard to have a foil to the clones in that reguard.

You guys hit the nail on the head on the animated series. But I will go ahead and post my thoghts:: All good points; figured I would repost this here as it more or less states why I prefer the CGI series to the animated one. Please note, my original post was in response to the question whether we view the old (Animated Series) or new (CGI Series) as Star Wars cannon and to explain our response. Not exactlly on topic but one that I feel would work in this thread. -------OLD POST------ Reason for my choice is because I can not stand OP characters in ANY form. Now it is true that the CGI version does have its far share of op moments; as mentioned above with Ashoka vs Grevious; but all that pales (imo) to the scenes from the animated version. The one part were mace windu pretty much destroys an entire droid army single handedly; with his BARE HANDS no less; then takes out the droid super weapon in three seconds, followed by him force leaping to a nearby mountain top to get a drink is the most enraging. That scene played out more like a Jedi Mountain Dew commercial than a cannonicly (sp?) accurate take on the Star Wars lore. Also that scene with Grevious taking on the four (or was it five) jedi was a little over the top as well; espcecially when the cartoon show more or less tells the audience that General Grevious > the Star Wars version of an attack helicopter. The animated version of the Clone Wars to me, sits on the same leve as the Force Unleashed video games. Pretty much a fanboy-ish take on jedi / sith and force powers in general. I mean if mace windu was really that powerful then why even bother with the clone army? Just send him to each seperatist planet, and watch as he would proceed to faceroll the entire enemy army by himself. More or less the animated clone wars series and the force unleashed games has given me a deep seated hatred of force users in general. The whole: "Well, I have the Force so I automatically win at everything." veiwpoint is frustrating to me, and (IMO) does not match the way Jedi / Sith were portrayed in the OT. /end nerd rage filled rant ----END OLD POST------ One other thing I thought I would bring up concerning the GCI Clone Wars, however is the fact that the droids are mentally handicapped. I know I am stated as being against anything OP in a work of fiction but the opposite remains true as well. Numerous times on the show Ashoka, Padme, Jar Jar, or some other character has confused droids about to capture them. Examples include but are not limited to pretending to be a bad guy with appropriate clearence, cause the droid to argue with each other and then slip by unnoticed, and sometimes even scaring the robots. Granted this is a children's show and the droids operated the same way in Episode 3, but the fact that characters could bluff thier way past robots specifically designed and programed for the sole purpose of war is stretching it a little bit. The most common explanation for this behavior is that the mass production of the droids have resulted in lower intelligence overall. While I can see this side to the subject; wouldn't the droids be more likely to shoot people on sight then ask questions, considering their function as BATTLE Droids. The fact that Lucas gave the droids a "personality" in the form of having an actual personality detracts from the whole Clone Wars series as a whole (IMO). Not only because it makes the bad guys look like bumbling idiots, but it also doesn't speak very well of the Republic if it took them soooo long to win the war in the first place. Maybe it's just my preference to robots like: The Terminator, or Warhammer 40K's Necrons that sets me against the light hearted CIS, but still the fact that they (droids) are called BATTLE DROIDS seems to detract from the seperatists over all. Overall the CGI clone wars is much prefered vs the PT and the animated series, and; like stated above; I love the humanizing done to the clones, and Anikan's and Obi Wan's friendship. Now if only they could work on the droid army in general.

All good points; figured I would repost this here as it more or less states why I prefer the CGI series to the animated one. Please note, my original post was in response to the question whether we view the old (Animated Series) or new (CGI Series) as Star Wars cannon and to explain our response. Not exactlly on topic but one that I feel would work in this thread. -------OLD POST------ Reason for my choice is because I can not stand OP characters in ANY form. Now it is true that the CGI version does have its far share of op moments; as mentioned above with Ashoka vs Grevious; but all that pales (imo) to the scenes from the animated version. The one part were mace windu pretty much destroys an entire droid army single handedly; with his BARE HANDS no less; then takes out the droid super weapon in three seconds, followed by him force leaping to a nearby mountain top to get a drink is the most enraging. That scene played out more like a Jedi Mountain Dew commercial than a cannonicly (sp?) accurate take on the Star Wars lore. Also that scene with Grevious taking on the four (or was it five) jedi was a little over the top as well; espcecially when the cartoon show more or less tells the audience that General Grevious > the Star Wars version of an attack helicopter. The animated version of the Clone Wars to me, sits on the same leve as the Force Unleashed video games. Pretty much a fanboy-ish take on jedi / sith and force powers in general. I mean if mace windu was really that powerful then why even bother with the clone army? Just send him to each seperatist planet, and watch as he would proceed to faceroll the entire enemy army by himself. More or less the animated clone wars series and the force unleashed games has given me a deep seated hatred of force users in general. The whole: "Well, I have the Force so I automatically win at everything." veiwpoint is frustrating to me, and (IMO) does not match the way Jedi / Sith were portrayed in the OT. /end nerd rage filled rant ----END OLD POST------ One other thing I thought I would bring up concerning the GCI Clone Wars, however is the fact that the droids are mentally handicapped. I know I am stated as being against anything OP in a work of fiction but the opposite remains true as well. Numerous times on the show Ashoka, Padme, Jar Jar, or some other character has confused droids about to capture them. Examples include but are not limited to pretending to be a bad guy with appropriate clearence, cause the droid to argue with each other and then slip by unnoticed, and sometimes even scaring the robots. Granted this is a children's show and the droids operated the same way in Episode 3, but the fact that characters could bluff thier way past robots specifically designed and programed for the sole purpose of war is stretching it a little bit. The most common explanation for this behavior is that the mass production of the droids have resulted in lower intelligence overall. While I can see this side to the subject; wouldn't the droids be more likely to shoot people on sight then ask questions, considering their function as BATTLE Droids. The fact that Lucas gave the droids a "personality" in the form of having an actual personality detracts from the whole Clone Wars series as a whole (IMO). Not only because it makes the bad guys look like bumbling idiots, but it also doesn't speak very well of the Republic if it took them soooo long to win the war in the first place. Maybe it's just my preference to robots like: The Terminator, or Warhammer 40K's Necrons that sets me against the light hearted CIS, but still the fact that they (droids) are called BATTLE DROIDS seems to detract from the seperatists over all. Overall the CGI clone wars is much prefered vs the PT and the animated series, and; like stated above; I love the humanizing done to the clone, and Anikan's and Obi Wan's friendship. Now if only they could work on the droid army in general.

Old = Non Cannon / New = Semi Cannon Reason for my choice is because I can not stand OP characters in ANY form. Now it is true that the CGI version does have its far share of op moments; as mentioned above with Ashoka vs Grevious; but all that pales (imo) to the scenes from the animated version. The one part were mace windu pretty much destroys an entire droid army single handedly; with his BARE HANDS no less; then takes out the droid super weapon in three seconds, followed by him force leaping to a nearby mountain top to get a drink is the most enraging. That scene played out more like a Jedi Mountain Dew commercial than a cannonicly (sp?) accurate take on the Star Wars lore. Also that scene with Grevious taking on the four (or was it five) jedi was a little over the top as well; espcecially when the cartoon show more or less tells the audience that General Grevious > the Star Wars version of an attack helicopter. The animated version of the Clone Wars to me, sits on the same leve as the Force Unleashed video games. Pretty much a fanboy-ish take on jedi / sith and force powers in general. I mean if mace windu was really that powerful then why even bother with the clone army? Just send him to each seperatist planet, and watch as he would proceed to faceroll the entire enemy army by himself. More or less the animated clone wars series and the force unleashed games has given me a deep seated hatred of force users in general. The whole: "Well, I have the Force so I automatically win at everything." veiwpoint is frustrating to me, and (IMO) does not match the way Jedi / Sith were portrayed in the OT. /end nerd rage filled rant EDIT: One other thing I thought I would bring up concerning the GCI Clone Wars was the fact that the droids are mentally handicapped. I know I am stated as being against anything OP in a work of fiction but the opposite remains true as well. Numerous times on the show Ashoka, Padme, Jar Jar, or some other character has confused droids about to capture them. Examples include but are not limited to pretending to be a bad guy with appropriate clearence, cause the droid to argue with each other and then slip by unnoticed, and sometimes even scaring the robots. Granted this is a children's show and the droids operated the same way in Episode 3, but the fact that characters could bluff thier way past robots specifically designed and programed for the sole purpose of war is stretching it a little bit. The most common explanation for this behavior is that the mass production of the droids have resulted in lower intelligence overall. While I can see this side to the subject; wouldn't the droids be more likely to shoot people on sight then ask questions, considering their function as BATTLE Droids. The fact that Lucas gave the droids a "personality" in the form of having an actual personality detracts from the whole Clone Wars series as a whole (IMO). Not only because it makes the bad guys look like bumbling idiots, but it also doesn't speak very well of the Republic if it took them soooo long to win the war in the first place. Maybe it's just my preference to robots like: The Terminator, or Warhammer 40K's Necrons that sets me against the light hearted CIS, but still the fact that they (droids) are called BATTLE DROIDS seems to detract from the seperatists over all.

Good point but I would like to think my droid idea would fit very nicely into the existing classes without overshadowing their stories/roles. Posted again for critique: All interesting possibilities, I personally would love a droid class that was "built" entirely around customization. For instance all droid players would start out as a T7 or protocol droid, and from there mod themselves into how they would like to play. Want to be a tank? Add bulky armor and quad legs to your frame. Want to be a long range dps? Add shoulder mounted "artillery" guns (much like the droids on Balmora). I essentially, see this class play out similar to how Chromehounds or the Armored Core series, treated customization. With the talent trees allowing you to utilize the different mods you can equip. Like a tree that limits/removes the penalties suffered from equipping certain items(i.e. being able to use heavy cannon arms without having to equip the slow moving quad legs ect.) Or a tree that focuses on increasing accuracy and "energy" usage allowing for players to have longer burst rotations, ect. Granted I don't know how balanced or unbalanced this class would be vs the existing ones, but I feel that this would best incorporate "being a droid" into the game.

All interesting possibilities, I personally would love a droid class that was "built" entirely around customization. For instance all droid players would start out as a T7 or protocol droid, and from there mod themselves into how they would like to play. Want to be a tank? Add bulky armor and quad legs to your frame. Want to be a long range dps? Add shoulder mounted "artillery" guns (much like the droids on Balmora). I essentially, see this class play out similar to how Chromehounds or the Armored Core series, treated customization. With the talent trees allowing you to utilize the different mods you can equip. Like a tree that limits/removes the penalties suffered from equipping certain items(i.e. being able to use heavy cannon arms without having to equip the slow moving quad legs ect.) Or a tree that focuses on increasing accuracy and "energy" usage allowing for players to have longer burst rotations, ect. Granted I don't know how balanced or unbalanced this class would be vs the existing ones, but I feel that this would best incorporate "being a droid" into the game.

The free will thing could easily be explained away with saying the droid had been memory wiped in awhile, or a new from of ai

What about being a droid (Not Droid Master-Thing) You could be unique in that your toon would be able to use cores and parts in place of armor. Imperials could get a soldier/trooper war droid giving them a "trooper" like class/story. Republic could get a stealth assassin droid giving them an "agent" like class/story.