So instead of "forcing" people to raid, the "easy" solution is "force" people to find crafters (multiple crafters) to make their gear they obtained while raiding? Does this mean crafters would still be "stuck" with 124 gear? Or can they make the same "quality" of gear as raiders, however, without the raiding? If so it would still turn into, nah I'm not gonna raid so I can make one piece of gear by having to find 4 different crafters to make my one piece of gear and they will just wait till they have enough credits to simply buy crafted gear that is just as good as the "raid loot". Your solution is flawed on so many levels.

Confused. So there is going to be gear everyone can just make that is the same as raid loot, but also gear that can be crafted (by everyone as well) that is the same as raid loot but the necessary mats will be the raid loot? What was the incentive again? And how does this prevent exactly what you quoted?

They might in South America you never know. Might have to kill one or two on their way to work at a automobile factory.

1) Define vendor gear. What gear from vendors can you buy that is better than purple crafted gear? Or are you talking about gear that is bought with special currency? Also if so, what gear are you referring to in that regard? 2) Not enough info to know but I'm pretty sure all gear obtained in raids is BoP. 3) If it's just like the skill, and dedication to raiding, I concur and say that's fine. You can raid at any time. You aren't "restricted" by any means other than having a full group to raid. A full group can be obtained in ANY fashion known to socializing in this game. If things are casually wanted at a casual pace but the same challenge it's unfair to say you are "required" to meet any schedule criteria. Nope, it's not the ONLY MODEL in the universe. However it's the standard with MMO's, hate it or not. I personally enjoy it. Not everyone has to, but please be aware of the programming difficulties involved with the model you are suggesting in a timely enough fashion that keeps the player base attracted to the game long enough for the company to make and keep making profits.

And skill. Also I never said raiding is the "ONLY" thing that takes time and dedication. As stated, I HAVE A PROFESSION. I have over 12 epic patterns. I know what it takes, and I say with experience in both, it's easier to craft things than it is to raid. First of all, you need at least 7 other people and their competence to raid to be successful. But we will for-go that and say this, if crafting meant you had to pressing buttons in a certain rotation multiple times for several hours to still not get one single upgrade or an item you already have, would you seriously be "all for it"? Be honest. Dedication and skill. I can't get raid gear and do dailies at the same time. I can't get raid gear and walk around the fleet at the same time. I can't get raid gear while I'm at the baseball game. Yes crafting takes time, I never denied that. But what is being denied is the difference between raiding and crafting. Again, if a system was incorporated where a crafter had to spend several hours pressing buttons at key moments, incorporate movement as specific times, and add in possibility to fail and make them start over and still have the chance to not craft something useable. Fine. Can YOU agree to those terms and say everyone else would too, because after all you said you don't mind the effort. Edit: If you can't agree, well then I go back to the fact I "didn't make up any argument" and the fact remains that you want the same for doing less. That's the bottomline. And I do want to say I bet many are unwilling to spend the time, effort, and skill. Am I right? Because after all, if it's exactly equal to the same system as raiding, then what are you doing, "raiding" just not hitting a "graphic boss" and simply making a piece of gear instead.

--double post--

So your model is crafting should be hours of keyboard pressing then, and you have to be attentative? Fine, I'm all for that. Edit: If it's going to be comparable to effort/time and skill required I'm all for the equality. If it's not, it's not equal is it?

And his comment is, what if crafted gear was ONLY USABLE by the crafter, how many would craft? What time are you spending making gear? You send your companions to do things while you can farm content. You don't even have to be logged in to craft things. What time are you giving up? What time are you sacrificing? You can go out to your ballgame your boss is asking you to go to and come back, log in and have all those epics you were "making" made when you get home. What did you sacrifice? And I'm the one out of touch with reality?

Give me a model that is comparable to raiding then for crafting. Tell me what would be comparable. Effort/time AND skill, as raiding REQUIRES both. Come up with something that is comparable to following a rotation (using abilities) for hours+ on top of the time spent outside of raids preparing for more raids.

Quoted for brilliance.

Wonder why if it's true raiding is such a small percentage of players, possible reasons? 1. Don't have the time. (Life choice) 2. Don't want to commit to the time/skill. (Life choice) 3. Aren't good enough. (ability) 4. PVP. (Life choice) 5. Don't like it. (Opinion) 6. Mixture of 1-5. So in order to make crafting "equal" it will take "equal" commitment and skill. So 1-4 are already out and number six because if you combine with 1-4 you can't live up to the equivalent to raiding anyways (Life choices are just those, choices, choices have consequences). Can number 5 really live up to the same commitment and skill required on par with raiding?

Um, all raiders? I don't think raiders raid for shiny purples so they can look good sitting at the fleet. Raiders raid because they like the challenge involved in raiding, it's not solely about the gear, it's about the progression through the gear and the challenges ensued. Why do you think there are companies that sponsor guilds in wow to get world firsts? It's not for the epics at the end. It's for the raiding and competition. So if raiding gear was only usable in raids, raiders would still raid. Edit: I will say that some people do measure themselves by the gear they wear. Sadly. It's pretty much as sad as men comparing their parts.

And the problem with the game simply being fun and fancy free where everything is just available to all users at any given time is there is a value placed on time. Maybe if the game didn't have credits or an economy I could see the proposal, and there wasn't a value placed on effort and time.

I do think raiding is the goal in MMO's. Everyone is not required and does not have to have this same level of thinking or passion. But you do really have to be open minded to what the difference between raiding and farming is. However you failed to capture the intent of my post. I'm saying you want the same reward with less give. Am I correct? Or are you really willing to spend multiple hours a week grinding and grinding and grinding to get the same lvl of gear as a raider? Can you answer this simple question of committing to the same effort?

You know what, that's not a bad idea. Sure. My "open mind" in action. Love your post actually this isn't directed at you even though it's gonna sound very sarcastic. Here's my whole point to this WHOLE THING though, people are already complaining about how long it takes to do things and the RNG and the.... and the..... and the..... so they want to do the work, but guarantee if they have to do 12 hours a week for an item, the QQ will be magnified by a factor of 100. That's the bottomline right there. Pretty much my whole point. Anyone screaming they want the "same" doesn't truly want the same commitment as raiding, so they aren't willing to put in the same commitment as it is to raiding, but wants the same rewards without the same time and commitment. "Why can't I come on for 30 minutes a day and get the same gear as someone who spends 4 hours a day preparing for raids?"