Assassin/Shadow Deception and Infiltration DPS - Vanish Change, Spike/Spinning Kick

[arunav]

I am posting regarding a substantial change to Deception Assassin/Infiltration Shadow via the "vanish" changes recently relayed via the dev team.

 

This is a class/spec I've played since the 1.x days, and feel I know well enough to comment on.

 

If our current vanish ability doesn't take the spec out of combat in Ops and FPs, it is a serious issue with general dps output. Currently, cloaking out allows for a reset of Recklessness/Force Potency. Typically, Assassins/Shadows then reengage the boss or target with Spike/Spinning Kick followed by their burst abilities, which are significantly affected by Recklessness/Force Potency resetting for dps.

 

The vanish changes outlined by the dev post don't account for this at all. It's obviously fine if, for whatever design goals, you'd like to change how vanish abilities work in PVE content. Recklessness/Force Potency need to reset still, however, when Deception/Infiltration Assassin/Shadow stealths out. This is a basic part of doing enough dps in harder PVE content like VM or MM Ops, which seems to be the gearing focus for 7.0.

 

A second issue is the removal of Spike/Spinning Kick for dps specs. As someone who has played this class as a main since the 1.x days, I really think you should reconsider the current choice that gives the stun ability from these abilities back in the tree but not Spike/Spinning Kick. They have been an anchor in the feel of the spec, and I would imagine it's possible to place the ability in the tree instead of just the stun option from Maul/Shadow Strike.

 

Other dps specs have more abilities, both in the live game and after the PTS changes for 7.0. As such, I think Deception/Infiltration players in general would rather have Spike/Spinning Kick placed as the option to pick if choosing the stun option in the current tree, instead of Maul/Shadow Strike implementing the stun without what's been a staple part of the spec since 1.x. Spike/Spinning kick is generally a fun ability for veteran and newer players alike to use, especially in open world/solo scenarios, where players can, in certain ways, experience the full benefits of playing a stealth class most. Sneaking up to a target and opening with Spike/Spinning Kick is an important part of this experience.

 

Veteran players understand you're trying to reduce abilities and balance that with maintaining as much of the feel of the various classes and specs as possible, and Spike/Spinning Kick is one of those abilities that actually matters for the feel of the Deception/Infiltration spec. It's still on the tank specs, but I'd very much argue that's not the spec where it actually contributes to the feel of playing an Assassin or Shadow tank. That said, please don't remove it from tanks too! We like having Spike or a kick to use there too.

 

Thanks for reading.

Edited November 14, 2021 by arunav

[ralphieceaser]

If our current vanish ability doesn't take the spec out of combat in Ops and FPs, it is a serious issue with general dps output. Currently, cloaking out allows for a reset to Recklessness/Force Potency. Typically, Assassins/Shadows then reengage the boss or target with Spike/Spinning Kick followed by their burst abilities, which are significantly affected by Recklessness/Force Potency resetting for dps.

 

The vanish changes outlined by the dev post don't account for this at all. It's obviously fine if, for whatever design goals, you'd like to change how vanish abilities work in PVE content. Recklessness/Force Potency need to reset still, however, when Deception/Infiltration Assassin/Shadow stealths out. This is a basic part of doing enough dps in harder PVE content like Ops, which seems to be the gearing focus for 7.0.

 

If recklessness/force potency is reset because the code falsely assumed combat is over, it sounds more like an exploit rather than an intended game mechanic.

Because people have been abusing that for years, doesnt mean it is intended unless the devs themselves mentioned such use is allowed specifically, not because they havent fixed it because it is likely they are not even aware of it since many people who abuse exploits for extra dps dont often try to report it.

 

Classes are designed to produce enough dps so if everyone in a group performs well, does the mechanics and doesnt die, you wont need that extra dps from the exploit.

[ScottGrim]

First off no offense at all but thats a simply not true.

 

Its not an exploit or has ever been.

 

Shadow infiltration litteraly has passive in their tree called potent shadows.

 

So the re-stealth to help reset force potency is working as intended ( on live at least) so let's not just jump to exploit with out atleast checking their abilities.

 

As for pts im sure they will fix it. They just wanna stop the stealth rezzes.

 

But thanks for posting about the bug and bringing it to their attention 🙂

[arunav]

 

Classes are designed to produce enough dps so if everyone in a group performs well, does the mechanics and doesnt die, you wont need that extra dps from the exploit.

 

This is how the spec has worked for the better part of a decade. I'm not sure why you'd think it's some kind of exploit.

 

If you don't believe me, look up any PVE guide for Deception Assassin (particularly those intended for Ops), and read over the recommended rotation, including the use of stealth in it.

Edited November 12, 2021 by arunav

[ralphieceaser]

This is how the spec has worked for the better part of a decade. I'm not sure why you'd think it's some kind of exploit.

 

If you don't believe me, look up any PVE guide for Deception Assassin (particularly those intended for Ops), and read over the recommended rotation, including the use of stealth in it.

 

PVE guides are not made by developers, if it is an unintended interaction of course the people who make guides would like to abuse it and consider it the norm if it benefit them.

 

Again my point is that it depends on whenever or not it is intended to be used in such a way in actual encounters and if the devs are even aware of it, one can easily argue it works like that in order to have it ready for the start of combat, not to keep abusing it within the same encounter to reset recklessness allowing more uses of recklessness than intended.

It is about the intended design, now how players can abuse certain design because if allowed players would abuse literally any unintended interaction if it gave them extra dps.

[arunav]

PVE guides are not made by developers, if it is an unintended interaction of course the people who make guides would like to abuse it and consider it the norm if it benefit them.

 

Again my point is that it depends on whenever or not it is intended to be used in such a way in actual encounters and if the devs are even aware of it, one can easily argue it works like that in order to have it ready for the start of combat, not to keep abusing it within the same encounter to reset recklessness allowing more uses of recklessness than intended.

It is about the intended design, now how players can abuse certain design because if allowed players would abuse literally any unintended interaction if it gave them extra dps.

 

I'd again refer you to the "better part of a decade" portion of the previous comment. While it would be understandable if the occasional practice in SWTOR by its players slipped by the studio's notice, something that a class does for, as best as I can remember, the entire time the game has been live is not something the dev team hasn't noticed.

 

If BW wants to change how Assassins/Shadows play in 7.0, that's a different topic. We've had no particular comment on this issue, and it's possible with all the changes being made in preparing for 7.0 this is something that was overlooked by accident. The OP is just a friendly "in case" sort of post, and certainly addresses an important part of dps output for Deception/Infiltration in higher-level PVE game modes, in addition to feedback on the removal of Spike/Spinning Kick and how it affects the feel of the spec.

[Flowwou]

I am posting regarding a substantial change to Deception Assassin/Infiltration Shadow via the "vanish" changes recently relayed via the dev team.

 

This is a class/spec I've played since the 1.x days, and feel I know well enough to comment on.

 

If our current vanish ability doesn't take the spec out of combat in Ops and FPs, it is a serious issue with general dps output. Currently, cloaking out allows for a reset of Recklessness/Force Potency. Typically, Assassins/Shadows then reengage the boss or target with Spike/Spinning Kick followed by their burst abilities, which are significantly affected by Recklessness/Force Potency resetting for dps.

 

The vanish changes outlined by the dev post don't account for this at all. It's obviously fine if, for whatever design goals, you'd like to change how vanish abilities work in PVE content. Recklessness/Force Potency need to reset still, however, when Deception/Infiltration Assassin/Shadow stealths out. This is a basic part of doing enough dps in harder PVE content like VM or MM Ops, which seems to be the gearing focus for 7.0.

 

A second issue is the removal of Spike/Spinning Kick for dps specs. As someone who has played this class as a main since the 1.x days, I really think you should reconsider the current choice that gives the stun ability from these abilities back in the tree but not Spike/Spinning Kick. They have been an anchor in the feel of the spec, and I would imagine it's possible to place the ability in the tree instead of just the stun option from Maul/Shadow Strike. Other dps specs have more abilities, both in the live game and after the PTS changes for 7.0. As such, I think Deception/Infiltration players in general would rather have Spike/Spinning Kick placed as the option to pick if choosing the stun option in the current tree, instead of Maul/Shadow Strike implementing the stun without what's been a staple part of the spec since 1.x. Spike/Spinning kick is generally a fun ability for veteran and newer players alike to use, especially in open world/solo scenarios, where players can, in certain ways, experience the full benefits of playing a stealth class most. Sneaking up to a target and opening with Spike/Spinning Kick is an important part of this experience.

 

Veteran players understand you're trying to reduce abilities and balance that with maintaining as much of the feel of the various classes and specs as possible, and Spike/Spinning Kick is one of those abilities that actually matters for the feel of the Deception/Infiltration spec. It's still on the tank specs, but I'd very much argue that's not the spec where it actually contributes to the feel of playing an Assassin or Shadow tank. That said, please don't remove it from tanks too! We like having Spike or a kick to use there too.

 

Thanks for reading.

 

You probably do not try it on PTS cause even with the changes on the vanish that does not quit combat, the Cooldown of recklessness is still reseting with the vanish so no problem on that.

 

For the p**** ability yes it was a cool ability but very usefull only in PTS except for the cool part of the ability.

Maybe juste putting the ability back instead of the point selection on mutilate that stun

[Ickack]

I would also like to add that the lack of Spinning Kick on 7.0's version of the Infiltration combat style on Jedi Shadow really hinders the class's playing experience in a small but blatant way. Speaking as a consistent PvPer, having one stun is decent, but Shadow/Assassin have always thrived off its use of utility and crowd control, to which Spinning Kick really brought a lot of usage to the table. I would like to stress that the removal of Spinning Kick (and its Assassin counterpart—I don't remember the name) has made initiating combat out of stealth less impactful and redundant. There is definitely less fun to go around because of this.

 

 

I would go as far as to say that the class feels like it's missing some skills because of a bug rather than it being a Developers choice—and this needs reconsideration.

 

 

Some of the 7.0 classes have been more pruned than others, and Shadow/Assassin seems to have fallen into the more "neutered" side of the spectrum. I've enjoyed 7.0's streamlined, especially on Scoundrel/Operative, Guardian/Juggernaut, and Gunslinger/Sniper, but the Shadow/Assassin feels as if it is missing crucial abilities in comparison.

[Mec_san]

I am posting regarding a substantial change to Deception Assassin/Infiltration Shadow via the "vanish" changes recently relayed via the dev team.

 

This is a class/spec I've played since the 1.x days, and feel I know well enough to comment on.

 

If our current vanish ability doesn't take the spec out of combat in Ops and FPs, it is a serious issue with general dps output. Currently, cloaking out allows for a reset of Recklessness/Force Potency. Typically, Assassins/Shadows then reengage the boss or target with Spike/Spinning Kick followed by their burst abilities, which are significantly affected by Recklessness/Force Potency resetting for dps.

 

The vanish changes outlined by the dev post don't account for this at all. It's obviously fine if, for whatever design goals, you'd like to change how vanish abilities work in PVE content. Recklessness/Force Potency need to reset still, however, when Deception/Infiltration Assassin/Shadow stealths out. This is a basic part of doing enough dps in harder PVE content like VM or MM Ops, which seems to be the gearing focus for 7.0.

 

A second issue is the removal of Spike/Spinning Kick for dps specs. As someone who has played this class as a main since the 1.x days, I really think you should reconsider the current choice that gives the stun ability from these abilities back in the tree but not Spike/Spinning Kick. They have been an anchor in the feel of the spec, and I would imagine it's possible to place the ability in the tree instead of just the stun option from Maul/Shadow Strike. Other dps specs have more abilities, both in the live game and after the PTS changes for 7.0. As such, I think Deception/Infiltration players in general would rather have Spike/Spinning Kick placed as the option to pick if choosing the stun option in the current tree, instead of Maul/Shadow Strike implementing the stun without what's been a staple part of the spec since 1.x. Spike/Spinning kick is generally a fun ability for veteran and newer players alike to use, especially in open world/solo scenarios, where players can, in certain ways, experience the full benefits of playing a stealth class most. Sneaking up to a target and opening with Spike/Spinning Kick is an important part of this experience.

 

Veteran players understand you're trying to reduce abilities and balance that with maintaining as much of the feel of the various classes and specs as possible, and Spike/Spinning Kick is one of those abilities that actually matters for the feel of the Deception/Infiltration spec. It's still on the tank specs, but I'd very much argue that's not the spec where it actually contributes to the feel of playing an Assassin or Shadow tank. That said, please don't remove it from tanks too! We like having Spike or a kick to use there too.

 

Thanks for reading.

 

 

For what concern the cloak out for reset force potency/reck, is not a problem.

The cloak tooltip has been changed, with the update force cloak reduce the cooldown of force potency of 60 seconds.

Like is in live now getting out of combat, so that thing is ok by now.

 

That is explained in the "potent shadows" baseline utility that say " Force potency and Shadow stride builds 3 stacks of breaching shadow, and exiting combat OR activating force cloak in combat reduces the cooldown of Force Potency by 60 sec [...] "

Edited November 13, 2021 by Mec_san
Correction

[arunav]

For what concern the cloak out for reset force potency/reck, is not a problem.

The cloak tooltip has been changed, with the update force cloak reduce the cooldown of force potency of 60 seconds.

Like is in live now getting out of combat, so that thing is ok by now.

 

That is explained in the "potent shadows" baseline utility that say " Force potency and Shadow stride builds 3 stacks of breaching shadow, and exiting combat OR activating force cloak in combat reduces the cooldown of Force Potency by 60 sec [...] "

 

Ah - I missed that. Good to know it's already been addressed. Thanks for your post.

[Mec_san]

Ah - I missed that. Good to know it's already been addressed. Thanks for your post.

 

Thought that. Also cause i am a main infiltration so was the first thing i checked .