saido Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 (edited) Sometimes. The penny just drops. What Bioware succeeded in doing was creating a multi-player RPG and not an MMO. They made Dragon Age in Space with your friends. The first question might be well it's massive and multiplayer and it's online -- so they did make an MMO. I would argue an MMO and a multi-player RPG are very different. And before we say it's been out a week. It's been in development for 5 years. An MMO is a series of activities. Quests (check). PVP (check). Crafting (check). Although Bioware has these things and this is where the proverbial penny drops -- they have failed to take into account meaning. Particularly the contextual meaning of 'war' but also the 'social meaning of an MMO' which creates the wider sense of community and community being created through effective, rewarding and necessary "inter"-dependence. Bioware created their own inflated expectations through marketing that was extremely well-executed. However. In the game the 'contextual meaning' is missing and the experience is somewhat lacking and fairly so. Players can only really adjust their play-style for questing between 'solo' (via companions) and group but it remains firmly rooted in the console-style of an RPG. This is structural and fundamental to the game design (therefore inherent in the past 5 years). The summary point being they missed a point 'social' and 'meaning' in the context of an MMO. This directly effects end-game / pvp / crafting and the social cohesion needed to create an ongoing MMO. The contextual issue is also reflected in the lack of difference between the PVE / PVP servers that there isn't an effective model for 'open conflict' which should be present in a 'war themed MMO'. A simple solution that would have a partial galvanising effect would be to create a hardcore PVP server where by joining one fully and implicitly understands life is cruel and you need your allies support. 5.5m of WOWs players are from Asia a gaming-cultural segment particularly responsive to 'fantasy' and 'RPGs' and therefore thrusting WOW as an example of model would be 'risky' as a foundation for a business model. This isn't an end-of-the-world post. SWTOR is fun. I'm in no rush to hit L50 because frankly I'm not quite sure what I'll do when I get there as the streams (PVE / PVP / Crafting) lack any wider purpose and don't galvanise a community through opposition. It's a good-game and it will I suspect as many MMOs see a wane in subscriptions overtime due to its fundamental contextual flaw in design. Edited December 30, 2011 by saido Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screek Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 (edited) i wouldt recommend you lvl to 50 either, stop at 49 and make a new toon you can't beat a mmo, but lvling to 50 in this game sure do feels like it. Its like you compleated the RPG and now you just entered another world where you can either grind instances for better gear to grind more instances, or you can grind warzones to get better gear to grind more warzones. The choice is yours dum... dum ...dum daaaa! the game go's on! or ... do it? i think that sums it up. Edited December 30, 2011 by Screek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saido Posted December 30, 2011 Author Share Posted December 30, 2011 @Screek. Yeah. - I think you're right I have 3 characters all at different levels as an avoidance strategy for L50. The RPG element is fantastic. The story-lines particularly impressive but Ilum -- well -- nuff said. And I can't imagine Hutball experiences a massive thrill update at 50. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Britzer Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 This game will fall flat on it's face when the other major MMO game is release in 2012. It's sad since ToR could of been so good, but was rushed too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makhbet Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 Tbh BW so far is limiting the Massive part as well, where "full" servers are capped at like 5-6k people, which was the population of "low" populated servers in WoW. And you can see it in the game world, barely any players anywhere. Full server feels like a desert if you're not on Imperial Fleet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saido Posted December 30, 2011 Author Share Posted December 30, 2011 5-6K. I wondered what the cap was given the highest population I've seen is on the Fleet (as you say) with a headcount of 191 which is clearly not massive -- slightly more than a decent party but no Spring Break. The other thing I found interesting is just how quickly the gaming community tore through and into the content. That is even when it comes to QQ -- gamers are quite sophisticated at understanding 'complex game design' in very short spaces of time and the secondary effects of game design with respect to economy / conflict. It does make one wonder about 'Closed Beta' but that probably occurs to late in the cycle for any deep remedial structural amends to the design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cashogy Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 5-6K. I wondered what the cap was given the highest population I've seen is on the Fleet (as you say) with a headcount of 191 which is clearly not massive -- slightly more than a decent party but no Spring Break. The other thing I found interesting is just how quickly the gaming community tore through and into the content. That is even when it comes to QQ -- gamers are quite sophisticated at understanding 'complex game design' in very short spaces of time and the secondary effects of game design with respect to economy / conflict. It does make one wonder about 'Closed Beta' but that probably occurs to late in the cycle for any deep remedial structural amends to the design. qfe the instance zoning idea was great for launch and the starter areas, but there is no reason for it later on in the game. dromund kaas should feel like a busy city, instead its a ghost town. the fleet is the only truly busy feeling place. i have a feeling once i hit level 50 i wont be spending much time off of the fleet anyways....... bioware clearly rushed this mmo. which begs the question, is voice over in an mmo really worth the time/money investment? because it is clear that 100% voice over has limited bioware's ability to fulfill the fundamentals of an mmo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santaner Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 qfe the instance zoning idea was great for launch and the starter areas, but there is no reason for it later on in the game. dromund kaas should feel like a busy city, instead its a ghost town. the fleet is the only truly busy feeling place. i have a feeling once i hit level 50 i wont be spending much time off of the fleet anyways....... bioware clearly rushed this mmo. which begs the question, is voice over in an mmo really worth the time/money investment? because it is clear that 100% voice over has limited bioware's ability to fulfill the fundamentals of an mmo That's right on. A lot of components seem to be lacking, and while the VOs are great, I can't help but think that if the resources toward making SWTOR fully VA'd could have gone elsewhere, what kind of blissful experience would we be left with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kopecs Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 It's sad since ToR could of been so good, but was rushed too much. Are you F**king kidding me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saido Posted December 30, 2011 Author Share Posted December 30, 2011 Are you F**king kidding me? Yeah. 5 years of Development and various figures thrown around of $100-150m in investment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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