Tactics need Help for DPS

[Kitsummerisle]

I was wondering if anyone uses this build and has a good rotation for it, I just don't really understand the stats yet with kinetic dmg, internal, and elemental. I'm trying to figure out rotations and such, but I'm just not sure with this spec.

 

From the feel of it just seems, like you Gut>Ion Pulse>StockStrike>GUT GUT GUT until proc from HIB, but the DPS feels suppar comared to assault.

 

I've been playing Assault and I got the hang of that spec really good, but I just decided to try out some tactics for DPS and it just seems like this spec lacks so much DPS compared to assault.

 

Was hoping someone who's already done all the trial and error in this build come help me out a bit. Thanks.

[GregP]

Gut doesn't do much upfront damage, spamming it to get it proc the HIB crit is going to really cut into your damage. My rotation goes Fire Pulse > Gut > Stockstrike > HIB > Ion Pulse (usually repeat Ion Pulse a few times until Fire Pulse comes off cooldown). If you don't have Fire Pulse yet, it would be Ion Pulse > Gut > Stockstrike > HIB. I always put Gut and Stockstrike first to maximize the chance to get the proc. If it doesn't proc, oh well, just keep rolling. Tactics isn't bursty like Assault. It's a nice steady stream of damage. Edited December 29, 2011 by GregP

[Tires]

Don't forget to manage your ammo in a manner that it is always replenishing at the fastest or second fastest rate.

 

My rotation is to Flash, SS, Gut, HiB, Pulse, to open.

Then manage ammo and prioritize SS and HiB as they come off cool down.

Keep Gut up at all times, flash when SS is off c/d and not free.

I may change that to flash on c/d, it does quite a bit of damage.

Hammer shot to preserve ammo regen.

[Ramurdyne]

Iam looking for info on this topic as well Edited December 29, 2011 by Ramurdyne

[Grimgold]

A Tactics Vanguard is actually a priority system, where you use whatever the highest priority ability that's available. The priority for single target is below:

 

Single Target Priority

Blitz (When available)

Fire Blast

Gut (when DOT is down)

High Impact Bolt

Stock Strike

Sticky Grenade

(At 9 or above cells and 5 stacks of the buff) Pulse Cannon

(At 8 or above cells) Ion Pulse

(At less than 8 cells) Hammer Shot

 

The goal is to never dip into lower than the second best recharge rate, so when in the second recharge rate hammer shot replaces Ion Pulse since it's free. If your doing your rotation correctly you should rarely use hammer shot.

 

30 Second Cycle

In a 30 second period you will gain (.6 x 30 =) 18 cells from natural regen and 5 cells from high energy cell. this gives you 23 cells to work with, or an average of (18/15=) 1.2 cells per global cool down. In that time assuming your fighting an elite or boss, you will ideally use:

 

2x Fire Blast (2 cells, 2 global cool downs)

2x Gut (4 cells, 2 global cool downs)

2x High Impact Bolt (4 cells, 2 global cool downs)

3x Stock Strike (2 cells since fire blast will make two of them free, 3 global cool downs)

2x sticky grenades (4 cells, 2 global cool downs)

1x Ion Blast (2 cells, 1 global cool down)

3x Hammer Shot (0 cells, 3 global cool downs)

 

Notes

1.) At the beginning you can substitute an extra Ion blast for one of the hammer shots due to having a few extra cells in the top regen tier.

 

2.) Recharge cells is a dps cooldown, allowing you to use more Ion Blasts in the place of hammer shots. The proper use is to burn down your cells with some chained ion blasts, pop the cooldown, then return to the normal cycle. Of course if your not very confident in being able to maintain energy equilibrium it's better to save it for an Ooops I'm low on ammo button.

 

3.) Ideally near the end of a bosses life, you'll enter a burn phase where you stop using hammer shots and instead use Ion Blasts. A perfect player would have 0 cells right as the boss dies, but for us mere mortals stopping the use of Hammer Shot at the last 20 or percent of life should be a sufficient rule of thumb.

 

Sample of combat

 

0.0 sticky Grenade (10 cells)

1.6 Regen +1

2.0 Fire Blast (9 cells)

3.2 Regen +1

4.0 Gut (8 cells)

5.0 Regen +1

6.0 Stock Strike (9 cells)

6.0 High energy cell +1

6.6 Regen +1

8.0 High Impact shot (9 cells)

8.2 Regen +1

10.0 Regen +1

10.0 Ion Pulse (9 cells)

11.6 regen +1

12.0 High energy cell +1

12.0 Ion Pulse (9 cells)

13.2 Regen +1

14.0 Hammer Shot (10 Cells)

15.0 Regen +1

16.0 Sticky Grenade (9 cells)

16.6 Regen +1

18.0 High energy Cell +1

18.0 Fire Blast (10 cells)

20.0 Regen +1

20.0 Gut (9 cells)

21.6 Regen +1

22.0 Stock Strike (10 cells)

23.2 Regen +1

24.0 High energy cell +1

24.0 High Impact shot (10 cells)

25.0 Regen +1

26.0 Ion Pulse (9 cells)

26.6 Regen +1

28.0 Ion Pulse (8 cells)

30.0 High energy Cell + 1

30.0 Regen +1

30.0 Hammer shot (10 cells)

 

This is based on personal experience and data from Torhead (wowhead in a funny hat), and I'd love any feedback I could get, as RH once said "I never learned a thing from a man who agreed with me".

Edited December 29, 2011 by Grimgold

[TehMerc]

It looks pretty spot on Grim. I think I might be favoring full auto over sticky grenades, mostly use em as an opening attack when our tank charges and I'm closing in, I'll have to look at the damage more closely. Though it's still a great way to open weak target's you need to burst down quickly in boss fights to HiB.

 

I'll have to hit 40 and test out Fire Pulse in my rotation, probably going to replace Blitz on my B button because of how non useful it is in pvp, not sure if I'll favor ion pulse less with it or not, it's pretty nice with the crit damage talent and pulse cannon is great single target even with 5 stacks. But I'm a big fan of the lightning anyhow

 

Tactics seems like it's definitely got some great aoe dps, my tank friend hates when I open with mortar and sticky into a 2 or 3 stack pulse cannon. And I haven't even really bothered with explosive surge lately to boot. What's your take on explosive for aoe by the way, just feels like it eats too much ammo to be that great for tactics, even with the pulse cannon stacks it gives.

[Zones]

I'm inclined to say the inclusion of sticky grenade on single target is questionable at this point.

[TehMerc]

I'm inclined to say the inclusion of sticky grenade on single target is questionable at this point.

 

Yeah, I wasn't too sure on it, but I haven't really done it as anything but an opening attack at range since explosive round is for sure less damage than sticky. With the crit damage bonus it should be better, plus it builds pulse generator.

 

What's the consensus on Full Auto though.

[Grimgold]

Per TOR head, sticky does far more damage than Ion pulse for the same energy cost, so it seems a logical inclusion.

 

Source:

Sticky Grenade - http://www.torhead.com/ability/5hxindl

Ion Pulse - http://www.torhead.com/ability/ahZ7MYb

 

So any time you can use either ion pulse or sticky grenade, sticky grenade is the better choice even on single target, especially on multi target.

 

About full auto, I originally didn't include it because it has an Odd duration and TOR uses an even on the global cool down (2 seconds), which means it could bump some thing. However when mocking up the rotation odd cooldowns wrecked havoc with my thoughts on best rotation. I edited my previous post to include a mockup, but I'm now playing with it to try and use full auto to square up the rotation. I would love if someone could one up me on that, but it's a slow day so if not I should have version 2 out shortly.

[TehMerc]

I just notice ion pulse hitting more when I play, could just be the crits now that I got 80% crit damage through talents though, I'm gonna have to check it out. The Torhead figures just feel wrong though.

 

It is most definitely a multi target gain though.

 

EDIT: you know, we're forgetting elemental damage typically is less of an issue versus armor, so that is probably why it feels like it's hitting for more.

Edited December 29, 2011 by TehMerc

[Grimgold]

Adding full auto squared up the rotation nicely, using the odd second and smoothing out regen some what, example at the bottom.

 

I'm sure there is a point when Ion Blast will surpass stick grenade, and it will probably depend on buffs to elemental damage, and your crit rating. Assuming a 30% DR for most mobs for physical, and a 5% for elemental (which is pretty close to myself in non tank gear) wen end up with:

 

1430 damage average for sticky grenade

560 average damage for ion pulse

 

Given most tactics vanguards will have +6% damage +6% crit and +30% damage on a crit with Ion pulse, there may be a point where Ion Pulse overtakes sticky, but it is quite a ways out. Of course Tor head could be wrong on the damage and we are not comparing apples to apples, but it seems about right in my experience of sticky non-crit hitting for over a k and Ion pulse critting for just over a k.

 

Updated Rotation with Full auto

0.0 sticky Grenade (10 cells)

1.6 Regen +1

2.0 Fire Blast (9 cells)

3.2 Regen +1

4.0 Gut (8 cells)

5.0 Regen +1

6.0 Stock Strike (9 cells)

6.0 High energy cell +1

6.6 Regen +1

8.0 High Impact shot (9 cells)

8.2 Regen +1

10.0 Regen +1

10.0 Full Auto (9 cells)

11.6 Regen +1

12.0 High energy cell +1

13.0 Ion Pulse (9 cells)

13.2 Regen +1

15.0 Sticky Grenade (8 Cells)

15.0 Regen +1

16.6 Regen +1

17.0 Fire Blast (9 cells)

18.0 High energy Cell +1

18.2 Regen +1

19.0 Gut (9 cells)

20.0 Regen +1

21.0 Stock Strike (10 cells)

21.6 Regen +1

23.0 High Impact Bolt (9 cells)

23.2 Regen +1

24.0 High energy cell +1

25.0 Regen +1

25.0 Ion Pulse (10 cells)

26.6 Regen +1

27.0 Ion Pulse (9 cells)

29.0 Hammer shot (9 cells)

30.0 High energy Cell + 1

30.0 Regen +1

30.0 Rotation ends with 11 cells

[Zones]

Per TOR head, sticky does far more damage than Ion pulse for the same energy cost, so it seems a logical inclusion.

 

Source:

Sticky Grenade - http://www.torhead.com/ability/5hxindl

Ion Pulse - http://www.torhead.com/ability/ahZ7MYb

 

So any time you can use either ion pulse or sticky grenade, sticky grenade is the better choice even on single target, especially on multi target.

 

About full auto, I originally didn't include it because it has an Odd duration and TOR uses an even on the global cool down (2 seconds), which means it could bump some thing. However when mocking up the rotation odd cooldowns wrecked havoc with my thoughts on best rotation. I edited my previous post to include a mockup, but I'm now playing with it to try and use full auto to square up the rotation. I would love if someone could one up me on that, but it's a slow day so if not I should have version 2 out shortly.

 

 

You have some what of a point, if it crosses over into ingame as well. Right below the damage is the text:

 

Note: Damage and healing values are based off a level 50 character in green gear. Torhead staffers are still adjusting and adding effects to the formulas, so bear with us as we continue to improve these numbers for launch.

 

They aren't all accurate so real in game numbers would be more meaningful. I'm not at the point where I can give meaninful data, so maybe I shouldn't be so questioning.

[Grimgold]

Right, until we see some formulas we should be suspicious of anything on tor head and darth hater. We also have no idea when the data was gathered, but I'm pretty certain it isn't from the current patch.

 

It's one of those exciting times when the best answer is to go and try it out yourself, figure out which does more damage and then use that. I trust tor head in broad strokes on this one because it jives with my experience, but your mileage may vary.

[GregP]

Adding full auto squared up the rotation nicely, using the odd second and smoothing out regen some what, example at the bottom.

 

I'm sure there is a point when Ion Blast will surpass stick grenade, and it will probably depend on buffs to elemental damage, and your crit rating. Assuming a 30% DR for most mobs for physical, and a 5% for elemental (which is pretty close to myself in non tank gear) wen end up with:

 

1430 damage average for sticky grenade

560 average damage for ion pulse

 

Given most tactics vanguards will have +6% damage +6% crit and +30% damage on a crit with Ion pulse, there may be a point where Ion Pulse overtakes sticky, but it is quite a ways out. Of course Tor head could be wrong on the damage and we are not comparing apples to apples, but it seems about right in my experience of sticky non-crit hitting for over a k and Ion pulse critting for just over a k.

 

 

I'm level 48 currently (shooting for 50 this weekend). My Ion Pulse does 693-756 damage while Sticky Grenade is 989-1045. I occasionally see non-crit Ion Pulse hits in the high 600's, while crit is between 1680 (lowest I've seen) and 1749 (highest I've seen). Most non-crit Ion Pulse is about 750.

 

My tech stats are:

Aim: 1062

Bonus damage: 491.5

Accuracy: 102.5

Crit: 18.69 (remember to add +6% for elemental damage)

Crit Multi: 75.45

Activation Speed: .80

Edited December 29, 2011 by GregP

[Ramurdyne]

Nice work grimgold, very useful.

 

But what would the rotation look like if the HIB proc didnt get get activated?

[Grimgold]

Nice work grimgold, very useful.

 

But what would the rotation look like if the HIB proc didnt get get activated?

 

Thank you, I had all of these same questions so it's fun to come here and work on the answers.

 

As for the question, High Impact bolt is good enough to use without the proc, It has a high base damage, and benefits from many of our talents. Auto crit is just delicious icing on the cake. So I don't think I'd wait for a proc unless another heavy hitting ability that could trigger the proc was waiting.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Grimgold

[Tires]

Grim, you type and possess the same depth of knowledge of my favorite bear tank named Grimm. Are you he?

[Grimgold]

I knew a Grimm bear tank of silver hand, but I am not he. Thanks though, I'm glad it's of use.

[Rayzorstorm]

Very helpful thread! Thanks guys!