Sorc Defensive Cooldown improvements - suggestions for 5.4

[matthobbit]

Hello fellow sorc/sages. I thought I'd make a list of suggestions for improving sorc/sage DCDs since I find them rather pitiful compared to other classes. Except for those poor powertechs.

 

Quick note: I don't consider heals on the GCD to be DCDs. Also not including positioning-related abilities since all ranged classes have them. I include static barrier because it has a utility that has DCD properties.

 

TLDR:

Force barrier punishes dps/hps and needs major overhaul to be non-channeled. Several other DCDs could be made passives instead of utility-locked.

 

Thoughts on Sorc Defensive Cooldowns:

 

1. Force Barrier - Channeled DCD is a DPS/HPS killer

 

The problem: Force Barrier takes us out of the fight for 6-8 seconds and enduring bastion charges build painfully slow. This means a huge drop in DPS for 5-6 GCDs - all of this for a class that scrapes the bottom of the barrel for dps ranking.

 

In group content, both PvP and PvE, a healer is almost never the only one taking damage - losing 8 seconds of heals when the entire operation is taking damage is a great way to wipe. No other class has a DCD which punishes them so severely for using it. Every other class has DCDs which are fire & forget, after which they can move on to other abilities.

 

Force barrier is pretty much a cool-looking gimmick.

Suggestion: Make Force Barrier insta-cast, allowing sorcs to take action while bubble is active. Reduce OP-ness of 8 seconds of invincibility by reducing duration to 4 seconds and granting only 2-3 charges of enduring bastion.

 

2. Unnatural Preservation

 

I think this is a powerful ability and shouldn't be touched.

 

3. Cloud Mind - Suppression (requires utility)- should be moved to passives

 

Problem: DCD for 25% damage reduction requires a utility. The Merc aggro drop doubles as a DCD for free.

 

Suggestion: It's only 6 seconds, and doesn't grant healing or reflect damage. Move the damage reduction from utilities to passives.

 

Alternatively: give it reflect or healing and keep it as a utility.

 

4. Phase Walk (requires utility) - should be moved to passives

 

Problem: In PvE, Phase Walk is useless as a DCD without a utility. The problem is that you're probably giving up the utility which buffs Unnatural Preservation to turn Phase Walk into a CD. In PvP, Phase Walk pretty much fulfills the exact same role as combat stealth, but it doesn't remove you from combat so you have to heal through abilities while high mobility classes can hunt you down by looking for you on the minimap.

 

Suggestion: Move the damage reduction from utilities to passives. Balance by reducing either the damage reduction or duration.

 

Alternatively: Make Force Mobility a passive ability for sorcs, freeing up a new utility slot.

 

5. Force Barrier + Backlash (blinding flash is a PvP DCD)

 

This utility is mostly for PvP and isn't very useful in group content PvE. In PvP, this can help if I get jumped 1v1 as it gives me time to heal or re-position. Sometimes it will be broken by teammates, but that's the nature of breakable stuns in PvP. I don't have any particular issues with this DCD.

 

6. DCD that doesn't exist yet.

 

I would love to have another DCD to complain about.

 

Let's come up with good ideas for DCDs in 5.4, since the 5.3 changes are pretty disappointing so far.

[BraverDre]

Too late for that. People unsubbing and I will do too. Bioware has worst balance team.

[Hoppinswtor]

Just make bubble healtofull.

[ottffsse]

Just make bubble healtofull.

 

Lol that would be too much actually. What we need is the merc-three-lives thing to just go away and no class to have a second life or third. Sins and Opers can have it still since they have to stealth out and do it though and their niche is dueling that is fine. And stuff like stealth out will get interrupted by good players anyways.

 

What I would do is (beyond fixing resource drain on ahem a certain sorc spec) is:

1. Eliminate stand still and do nothing on Force Barrier (make it give all it's benefits instantly) and last say 6sec.

2. Buff dr mitigation a bit more on a secondary ability like Suppression/cloud mind or that other one in legendary tier that modifies your one strong self heal (which could be made a bit stronger heal a bit more btw too with that legendary utility)

 

Let's face it corrupting barrier was way too strong at 2%/8% before in 4.0. With their hots ticking, barrier and life steal madness was broken for PvP in 4.0. If you would translate the 4.0 utilities to the gear today that would be like dishing out almost 9K dps with aoes and dot spread while getting 4K hps or more in the process.

[fifteendollers]

DPS classes don't need DCD's. They just need to kill the target before the target kills them.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

DPS classes don't need DCD's. They just need to kill the target before the target kills them.

 

Wow. Just wow.

[realleaftea]

Force Barrier - Channeled DCD is a DPS/HPS killer

 

The problem: Force Barrier takes us out of the fight for 6-8 seconds and enduring bastion charges build painfully slow. This means a huge drop in DPS for 5-6 GCDs - all of this for a class that scrapes the bottom of the barrel for dps ranking.

 

In group content, both PvP and PvE, a healer is almost never the only one taking damage - losing 8 seconds of heals when the entire operation is taking damage is a great way to wipe. No other class has a DCD which punishes them so severely for using it. Every other class has DCDs which are fire & forget, after which they can move on to other abilities.

In my opinion, you look at it the wrong way.

 

Not every class is entitled to take up an aggressive role. And basically, the defense oriented style that might create a DPS loss is exactly what should separate melees from ranged specs (and not a passive +5% damage advantage). If you look at all the other abilities a Sorcerer has, it should be obvious that the notion is to create a cautious // controlling class type.

 

Whirlwind - the lengthy CC creates an 8sec DPS loss for your enemies. The potential premature end requires oversight.

Static Barrier - requires oversight. The skill doesn't do anything once the damage is done.

Phase Walk - requires preparation. Unlike Evasion or Force Shroud, it's what some forum users call an "escape".

Extrication - it's basically an "escape" for your teammates. Requires proper positioning.

Force Speed - a highly controllable repositioning skill (unlike Rocket Out or Covered Escape)

 

And the utilities:

 

Dizzling Force - a 'soft' CC for 8s - i.e. a DPS loss for opponents - following a 'hard' CC.

Torturous Tactics - a 'soft' CC for 10s - i.e. a DPS loss for opponents - following a 'hard' CC.

Corrupted Flesh - a dedicated protection against certain opponents

Shapeless Spirit - another dedicated protection against certain types of attacks

Backlash - potentially a 3s incapacitating effect every 15s.

 

So you see, Sorcerers aren't meant to be in the midst of a battlefield, carelessly spamming their skills and triggering ordinary DCD every now and then.

 

And Force Barrier just continues this orientation and isn't the typical combat DCD either. Its main purpose isn't to provide you the confidence to take up a superior number of foes. It's meant to be a last effort to stay alive and a testimony that nothing gonna hurt you. I.e. it's not like a Force Shroud or Saber Reflect that might exclude certain types of damage and unlike a Protected by the Force, it also prevents you from any push / pull or stun effect. Choosing Enduring Bastion then supplements it by combining a short-term invincibility with a non-mobile version of Innervate.

 

In PvE, a common scenario is that you can ignore any type of special attack the boss is throwing at you. So any AoE, self-destructive monster, etc.

In PvP, it's used in case of a sudden shift towards you - i.e. when you're ganked. And the advantage is that there isn't much an opponent can do about it.

 

Cloud Mind - Suppression (requires utility)- should be moved to passives

 

Problem: DCD for 25% damage reduction requires a utility. The Merc aggro drop doubles as a DCD for free.

 

Suggestion: It's only 6 seconds, and doesn't grant healing or reflect damage. Move the damage reduction from utilities to passives.

 

Alternatively: give it reflect or healing and keep it as a utility

Can't agree on that one either.

 

First, in order to create divercity among classes, the devs gave every class a different 'default' style // orientation. In some cases other classes can't achieve the same, in other cases they must choose the right utility for it. F.e. a Sorcerer at least has an 8s 'god-bubble', now name the counterpart for Snipers or Powertechs. And both a Mercenary and a Sniper must spend an utility to get the additional 'self heals' as well.

 

Second, there are different categories of damage mitigation effects // evade skills and Suppression isn't in the same category as Responsive Safeguard.

 

High cooldown 'hard' DCD / Evade

Force Barrier, Protected by the Force, Blade Turning, Force Cloak & Cloaking Screen and to some parts Kolto Surge (with utility)

 

Low cooldown 'hard' DCD:

Saber Reflect, Force Shroud, Evasion, Responsive Safeguard, Deflection, Force Camouflage // Obfuscate and Phase Walk.

 

High cooldown 'soft' DCD:

Saber Ward, Energy Shield, Ballistic Shield, Overcharged Saber, Revitalizers (leg. utility) and Overprepared (leg. utility).

 

Low cooldown 'soft' DCD:

Usually spec-specific: Like Degauss, Sonic Defense, Automated Defenses, Coolant, Mounting Darkness, Darkswell, Conquering Defense, Deafening Defense, Hungering as well as heals or life-leech. Sometimes available to all three specs: Like Cloak of Pain, Shield Probe, Static Barrier, Unnatural Preservatiion or Endure Pain. But sometimes it must be obtained via utilities: Like Supercharged Defense (leg. utility), Energy Rebounder (masterful utility), Dizzling Force, Torturing Tactics or Ballistic Dampers.

 

You could say that Suppresion would have better been a high cooldown 'soft' DCD, but the Sorcerer is lacking a proper 120s skill to add this effect to.

 

So if BioWare were to make it available for all three specs, it would be better another Energy Shield. The Sorcerer's low-CD 'soft' DCDs are Static Barrier and Unnatural Preservation. Oh and Sorcerers already have a damage reflect in form of the Lightning Barrier utility.

 

Phase Walk (requires utility) - should be moved to passives

 

Problem In PvE, Phase Walk is useless as a DCD without a utility. The problem is that you're probably giving up the utility which buffs Unnatural Preservation to turn Phase Walk into a CD.

 

In PvP, Phase Walk pretty much fulfills the exact same role as combat stealth, but it doesn't remove you from combat so you have to heal through abilities while high mobility classes can hunt you down by looking for you on the minimap.

 

Suggestion: Move the damage reduction from utilities to passives. Balance by reducing either the damage reduction or duration.

 

Alternatively: Make Force Mobility a passive ability for sorcs, freeing up a new utility slot.

Like I said above, Phase Walk is the Sorcerer's variant of a low-CD hard DCD, i.e. their variant of Evasion, Force Shroud or Force Camouflage. And due to the fact that it has a max. range of 60m, a proper use means noone is gonna hit you for a few seconds.

 

And in my opinion, the skill is still quite useful in PvE as well. It can be used to interrupt the energy beam (Revan), to avoid a Master/Blaster AoE or on several different occations fighting Brontes, the Sword Squadron, Firebrand & Stormcaller and a few other bosses.

 

So I definitely wouldn't move all the effects to passives, except for the 30% DR and maybe the leap immunity.

 

But in order the highlight the category it belongs to, I would increase the damage reduction to 50%+ while lowering the duration to 4s. The utility can then increase the duration back to 6s. (just like a Force Camouflage).

 

The whole 10s interrupt immunity would have fit more to Recklessness.

Edited July 3, 2017 by realleaftea
adding a hint that Sorcerers have a damage reflect

[fifteendollers]

Wow. Just wow.

 

I'm brilliant, I know.

[Ramalina]

Sage is a positioning, movement, and timing dependent class. It's a pretty fundamental part of the playstyle.

 

Now, in PvP Balance and TK specs do have some problems with output on the move, but that's mostly a matter of how much non-mobile output abilities they can get to fit into a short window of being stationary. The defenses are quite generous, but the output is mostly organized on the basis of not needing to move defensively very much.

 

Seers on the other hand (probably even after the nerfs) have pretty high output on the move and don't really suffer a significant output penalty for using a mobility based defensive strategy.

 

I disagree pretty strongly on Force Barrier. I have no problems with the channel. The basics of how I tend to utilize it are below, but like many Sage abilities its generalized nature practically begs for creative use/abuse.

 

PvE: Recall that PvE is scripted. This means that if you pay attention and know the fight you know well in advance when you're going to get the most out of Force Barrier. That means you can get out Force Armors, Rejuvenates, Salvation, and Wandering Mend so that your output while channeling is fairly high. You can also spam Vindicate to your heart's content to regen force (in the unlikely event you need to more than your current supply of Resplendence charges will allow) secure in the knowledge that Force Barrier will purge the Weary debuff. Speaking of purging, it'll also purge almost all debuffs and DoTs as well. Since you know when the mechanic you're planning on cheesing through is going to arrive, you only need to channel Force Barrier for a second or two to get through it and then can resume healing as normal. In PvE Force Barrier is a "gimmick" in the, "this lottery is rigged so that whichever ticket I buy is guaranteed to win the jackpot," sense.

 

PvP: A mobile. squishy, ranged class is normally not going to be in the thick of things. In general, it's also going to take more than one player worth of attention to justify needing to pop Force Barrier. So if 2 or more members of the other team wish to travel to where they can fight you, and then either spend 8 seconds not being able to do so, or then have to travel back to the rest of the fight, then I'd say a trade off of multiple mobility cooldowns or potentially 16 or more seconds worth of output subtracted from the opposing team's ledger is a pretty decent return for one CD with an up to 8 second channel on the Sage's part (again, like in PvE, you don't have to channel the whole duration).

 

Sages have a lot of fairly generalist mobility and utility defense related abilities. They don't work great if you want to just stand there and spam abilities, but they lend themselves very well to creative use/abuse when combined with good positioning, movement, and timing. It's not easy, and I'll allow that the DPS specs could use some adjustment in terms of being able to keep up output while moving defensively or having more of their output crammed into the burst they can fit in during those rare moments when they can stand still.

 

For 5.4 changes I'd probably mostly look at shuffling around how much damage comes from which ability so that the DPS specs are better able to survive and DPS instead of surviving or DPSing. Keeping in mind that you should be able to find at least brief moments to stand still and hard cast on a fairly regular basis. They're just too brief to fit in as much rotation as you need to put out respectable damage right now. Making sustained on the move DPS higher, making stationary DPS faster or harder hitting, or making a greater portion of the rotation usable on the move would all be just as much a viable approach to that as tinkering with DCDs would.

 

Based on the class history I tend to think that they'll be disinclined to change DCDs to make it much easier for Sage/Sorc to stand still and cast under pressure in PvP.

[verfallen]

Sage is a positioning, movement, and timing dependent class. It's a pretty fundamental part of the playstyle.

 

Now, in PvP Balance and TK specs do have some problems with output on the move, but that's mostly a matter of how much non-mobile output abilities they can get to fit into a short window of being stationary. The defenses are quite generous, but the output is mostly organized on the basis of not needing to move defensively very much.

 

Seers on the other hand (probably even after the nerfs) have pretty high output on the move and don't really suffer a significant output penalty for using a mobility based defensive strategy.

 

I disagree pretty strongly on Force Barrier. I have no problems with the channel. The basics of how I tend to utilize it are below, but like many Sage abilities its generalized nature practically begs for creative use/abuse.

 

PvE: Recall that PvE is scripted. This means that if you pay attention and know the fight you know well in advance when you're going to get the most out of Force Barrier. That means you can get out Force Armors, Rejuvenates, Salvation, and Wandering Mend so that your output while channeling is fairly high. You can also spam Vindicate to your heart's content to regen force (in the unlikely event you need to more than your current supply of Resplendence charges will allow) secure in the knowledge that Force Barrier will purge the Weary debuff. Speaking of purging, it'll also purge almost all debuffs and DoTs as well. Since you know when the mechanic you're planning on cheesing through is going to arrive, you only need to channel Force Barrier for a second or two to get through it and then can resume healing as normal. In PvE Force Barrier is a "gimmick" in the, "this lottery is rigged so that whichever ticket I buy is guaranteed to win the jackpot," sense.

 

PvP: A mobile. squishy, ranged class is normally not going to be in the thick of things. In general, it's also going to take more than one player worth of attention to justify needing to pop Force Barrier. So if 2 or more members of the other team wish to travel to where they can fight you, and then either spend 8 seconds not being able to do so, or then have to travel back to the rest of the fight, then I'd say a trade off of multiple mobility cooldowns or potentially 16 or more seconds worth of output subtracted from the opposing team's ledger is a pretty decent return for one CD with an up to 8 second channel on the Sage's part (again, like in PvE, you don't have to channel the whole duration).

 

Sages have a lot of fairly generalist mobility and utility defense related abilities. They don't work great if you want to just stand there and spam abilities, but they lend themselves very well to creative use/abuse when combined with good positioning, movement, and timing. It's not easy, and I'll allow that the DPS specs could use some adjustment in terms of being able to keep up output while moving defensively or having more of their output crammed into the burst they can fit in during those rare moments when they can stand still.

 

For 5.4 changes I'd probably mostly look at shuffling around how much damage comes from which ability so that the DPS specs are better able to survive and DPS instead of surviving or DPSing. Keeping in mind that you should be able to find at least brief moments to stand still and hard cast on a fairly regular basis. They're just too brief to fit in as much rotation as you need to put out respectable damage right now. Making sustained on the move DPS higher, making stationary DPS faster or harder hitting, or making a greater portion of the rotation usable on the move would all be just as much a viable approach to that as tinkering with DCDs would.

 

Based on the class history I tend to think that they'll be disinclined to change DCDs to make it much easier for Sage/Sorc to stand still and cast under pressure in PvP.

 

TK/Lightning is actually pretty great at dps on the move, assuming you use Surging Speed utility and force mobility. You pretty much have a way to cast everything safe crushing darkness while running, altough LB isnt at will, but I got used to kiting and I pretty much always have something firing even on a full run. If you dont then resurgence/heal/static barrier etc.

 

Only change I think would fit the class playstyle is baseline instant mez, and that your dot stop ticking on target you lift. Thats also something you can use defensively while guarding to heal to full another time. That said, wish they weren't nerfing dark heal.