Andryah Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 (edited) The engine has in fact had multiple updates over the years. And in each case, we the players generally see better performance as a result. It had it's shortcomings early after launch, but now days it actually is pretty good. Now.. if you were actually asking when they will replace it.. the answer is simple.... Never. If they did replace it, we would end up going through the growing pains of a new engine like we did at launch and that would be a horrible decision to make. And NO.. it is not really the Hero Engine anymore. They used a beta version of it as a starting point more then 8 years ago and then significantly recoded it for their needs. It's for all intents and purposes... a proprietary Bioware engine now days. Edited February 13, 2017 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cymek- Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 EAWare decided to buy an alpha/beta build of the engine, and so they don't have any support for it. They also made some major changes to it, from what I've been told, in order to do various things in the game. So trying to add code from the full version of the Hero Engine (with all subsequent updates it has had) to the mangled unfinished code TOR has may well just be impossible. Oh wow, I wasn't aware they basically waived support due to using such an early version. Makes sense though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoopicus Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Look at it from EA's standpoint. They could put the large amount of resources in to rewriting this game for a new engine, deep in to its long tail and in maintenance mode, to support the few of us still around. Or they could put the resources into writing a new game from scratch, to ride on (say) the Han Solo movie hype. Or other IP, and capture many new users. In scenario 1, they get our money. In scenario 2, they still get our money (as we are not going anywhere), and they also get to capitalize on the sales of a new game. Which do you think they will choose? I was actually surprised they put the resources into KotFE and KotET art direction that they did. Those awesome intro movies and cutscenes? That is what we got instead of engine updates and new endgame content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arrteem Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 If they ever do put in a new engine update, I want Black Desert style combat. Would be particularly amazing on Jedi and Sith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forren-Midosea Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 What issues or bugs do we know for certain are due to the engine? standing still on fleet. gpu usage is 40-50% cpu usage is 70-80% Fight with boss in instance. GPU 20% cpu 50% or lower. Now if its not the engine then i dont know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forren-Midosea Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Oh and one more thing. Frostbite engine. EA wants to use this thing on their games, Free engine for bioware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AscendingSky Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Yet another person asking for 'engine updates' when they dont even understand what a game engine is or what it does. The engine BW used was an early beta version of the hero engine that they took on accepting that they would have to rewrite or modify large parts of it, at this point it is a completely discrete entity that cannot even reasonably be called the 'Hero engine' anymore. Porting a game into a different engine (which is what you are essentially asking for) would take almost as much effort as building a new game from scratch would and the rewards for millions and millions of dollars spent would be very meagre indeed considering that they cant reasonably re-box it and sell for 30 bucks a pop again, in fact they would probably eat a massive loss which would probably lead to the game being shut down. In an age where the Triple A MMO is going extinct, no company is going to take this kind of risk on a game that has already failed so dramatically in so many respects. So the massive success of rebuilding and relaunching FFXIV after its similar spectacular failure and tailspin doesn't exist in the parallel universe you come from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AscendingSky Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 standing still on fleet. gpu usage is 40-50% cpu usage is 70-80% Fight with boss in instance. GPU 20% cpu 50% or lower. Now if its not the engine then i dont know. Yeah, it seems this engine really cannot handle rendering multiple characters in a single location well, even if all they're doing is standing still or walking. Once particle effects start happening, even on high end systems you start having framerate drops. It's why massive open world PvP doesn't happen; even when people try to hold events for it, people quit in frustration because their game turns into a slideshow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merovejec Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 This would be welcome, but it definitely not happening. The game cant provide proper content, not to mention engine update. So yeah, would be nice, but ain't happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveTheCynic Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Oh and one more thing. Frostbite engine. EA wants to use this thing on their games, Free engine for bioware. Free to acquire, maybe, but NOT free to integrate with the game. As people have said repeatedly on this and other threads, they'd have to, in essence, make a new game that used (translated versions of) the same scenarios. It would be SWTOR 2, not a re-engined version of SWTOR 1, in the same way that Guild Wars 2 is not just a re-engined version of Guild Wars. Yes, FFXIV 1.0 was abandoned and replaced by ARR, but they are not the same game. It's the same world and the basic concepts are very similar, but ARR is not *just* a re-engined version of 1.0. The Adventurer's Guild person you talk to when you arrive at your starting city alludes to the transformation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedip_enguin Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 So the massive success of rebuilding and relaunching FFXIV after its similar spectacular failure and tailspin doesn't exist in the parallel universe you come from? The situations of boths games are not even close to the same. Square Enix owns the FF IP outright and publishes/develops in house, the failure of the game was a MASSIVE issue as FF is their flagship IP and a huge part of their portfolio. The rebuild/re-release was a brand face saving exercise that almost certainly ate a huge short to medium term loss in order to keep their brand/stockprice healthy. Bioware neither owns the Star Wars IP nor does it self publish, as it is a wholely owned subsidiary of EA (who merely hold a limited license on the Star Wars IP). EA's portfolio is massive and TOR accounts for an extremely small amount of that, so dumping 50million dollars (extremely lowball estimate) into rebuilding a F2P game that has already had (allegedly) over 300 million dumped into it with no obvious way of recouping the cost (cant sell boxes for a F2P game, worldwide MMO sub populations are in massive decline) does not exactly look like a great idea to EA beancounters when that money could be better spent developing another Madden game or some piece of mobile trash while the exisiting TOR model provides a steady trickle of income from the cash shop with minimal capital input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJWyler Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 (edited) So the massive success of rebuilding and relaunching FFXIV after its similar spectacular failure and tailspin doesn't exist in the parallel universe you come from? jedip_enguin said it very nicely. Just because one single game developer out there did what was essentially a reboot of a game does not mean it is feasible for any and every other single development studio out there to do. These are very different circumstances with very different companies at the helm and very different fans and a very different playerbase. Let's not forget that FFXIV is one of the very few MMOs that are able to survive as a subscription only game. This is Star Wars, and it was not able to survive with a subscription only model. That speaks volumes. Absolutely it can be done. SWTOR 2.0 can be developed on a new engine, but we would see a completely different game. But at the end of the day it's all about the ROI. Everything that BW has done since 4.0 has been about meeting expectations for EA's bottom line. No way in heck are we ever going to see this game ported to a new engine because it will never be able to recoup the cost of such a venture. SWTOR is in the wrong Publishing hands and in the wrong Developer hands for such scenario to be successful. Edited February 13, 2017 by BJWyler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlasmaJohn Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 This is Star Wars, and it was not able to survive with a subscription only model. That speaks volumes. Not quite. Electronic Arts' Austin studio built from a mashup of old Mythic and Bioware employees could not create an MMO that was able to survive as subscription only. MMO development and operations needs real enterprise experience, something that is in very short supply in the computer games industry. The Star Wars MMO license should never have been handed to a green team. Had the project been given to some seasoned MMO veterans with a proven operational track record then I very much do believe a sub-only Star Wars MMO would have not only survived it would have flourished. Much like ARR. Considering their statements about mobile in their last report what will be coming out of EA will be infested with the predatory sales practices that are currently tainting the mobile space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 (edited) Oh and one more thing. Frostbite engine. EA wants to use this thing on their games, Free engine for bioware. Name one MMO running on one of the Frostbite engines. It's appears to be a great engine for single player games... but not for MMOs. Believe it or not, single player games have very different engine requirements to those of MMOs. Which is why most MMO companies either build their own from scratch, or buy one and modify the crap out of it to bring it up to make it their own. The engine in this game is NOT the Hero Engine. It's Biowares custom engine which was built on the skeleton of an early release of Hero Engine. Edited February 13, 2017 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 The situations of boths games are not even close to the same. Square Enix owns the FF IP outright and publishes/develops in house, the failure of the game was a MASSIVE issue as FF is their flagship IP and a huge part of their portfolio. The rebuild/re-release was a brand face saving exercise that almost certainly ate a huge short to medium term loss in order to keep their brand/stockprice healthy. Exactly. This is an apples and oranges exercise FFXIV lovers keep trying to make. Also, I believe SE did not need to redo the engine in their reboot.... it was the actual game design approach that failed so badly with their FFn installed base. Specifically, while the graphics and music were generally praised by fans, other aspects were widely bashed and hated, including the gameplay, interface, along with the general impression of the game being in an unfinished state for launch. If folks want to have a discussion about the merits/deficiencies of the engine for SWTOR... fine. But this constant comparing of one MMO vs another in order to make a negative point is absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlasmaJohn Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Name one MMO running on one of the Frostbite engines. It's appears to be a great engine for single player games... but not for MMOs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Frostbite_games No MMO's of course but there is Dragon Age: Inquisition (so we know it's suitable for RPGs) and Star Wars: Battlefront (So we know it can handle multiplayer environments). Most of the parts are there. How hard implementing an MMO depends on how flexible BF's back-end systems are and how much money EA is willing to sink into it. Regardless. Anybody repeating the "Hero Engine can't handle cross server" is spreading a "not so" story. Austin has a full source license. The only thing holding them back from implementing it is resources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 (edited) Not quite. Electronic Arts' Austin studio built from a mashup of old Mythic and Bioware employees could not create an MMO that was able to survive as subscription only. Not exactly. If you are going to make drive by comments, facts count. 1) Austin is a studio, with both a parent and a sister studio in Canada, that was independent and eventually acquired by EA prior to launch of SWTOR. The studios were already known and had a reputation for great single player games, which is largely why EA acquired them. The studio in Edmonton Canada is actually the parent of the one in Austin and has been successfully producing games for more then 20 years now. They also set up a studio in Montreal. Austin does appear to have been built up largely to focus on SWTOR. And by the way.... Bioware has deployed a range of game engines over it's game portfolio over the years: Infinity Engine Aurora Engine Odyssey Engine Eclipse Engine Unreal Engine 3 Hero Engine Frostbite 3 2) Mythic is a studio that was independent and eventually acquired by EA as it floundered trying to release new MMOs. It's not really clear from a business standpoint what exactly was in it for EA, and I think they blew it by acquiring this studio which really was a one hit studio (DAoC) and failed year over year trying to produce a new MMO. Mythic was acquired in 2006, prior to the acquisition of Bioware. 3) Some time after EA acquired Bioware, they made Bioware division the lead studio for PC games and basically shuttered Mythic and folded it's remaining game (DAoC) and some of it's staff into the Austin Studio. I know some bitter WAR people like to blame the importing of some old Mythic staff into Bioware as THE reason for SWTORs flop.. but historical timelines simply do not support this theory. 4) On September 13, 2016, EA announced the formation of EA Worldwide Studios, which would consist of the BioWare Studios, EA Mobile, and Maxis, and led by the DICE co-founder Patrick Soderlund. At the same time, Samantha Ryan, head of EA Mobile and Maxis, was appointed the new head of the BioWare Studios. I see this as yet another business evolution within EA, which frankly is not uncommon in large digital gaming companies. Edited February 13, 2017 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 (edited) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Frostbite_games No MMO's of course but there is Dragon Age: Inquisition (so we know it's suitable for RPGs) and Star Wars: Battlefront (So we know it can handle multiplayer environments). Most of the parts are there. How hard implementing an MMO depends on how flexible BF's back-end systems are and how much money EA is willing to sink into it. Exactly... NO MMOs. So I am sure there is a reason for that. Regardless. Anybody repeating the "Hero Engine can't handle cross server" is spreading a "not so" story. Austin has a full source license. The only thing holding them back from implementing it is resources. Well, for starters, I would not call what is in SWTOR today the Hero Engine.. for reasons already covered. This constant harranging about Hero Engine here is completely misplaced and actually does a disservice to Hero Engine. It's appears to be a pretty good engine when used in the right context... and it is particularly accessible and good for a small studio production. As to the matter of cross-server.... the studio has gone on record promising it, then backtracking (for unspecified technical reasons) YEARS ago. I personally would like to know the technical reasons, just for clearer understanding rather then having to buy in to the hyperbole in the forum about it here.... but I doubt they will disclose such details as tipping ones hand on even things as mundane as this are generally considered proprietary and not to be disclosed to competition. Edited February 13, 2017 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlasmaJohn Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Exactly... NO MMOs. So I am sure there is a reason for that. Hard to say. EA seems to be shifting away from themepark MMO's so IMO the gap is due to business decisions as opposed to technical ones. Had there only been first-person games on that list then I'd be more inclined to believe it was a technical deficiency or lack of focus but that doesn't seem to be the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmmbuddah Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Make it 64 bit to utilize more memory, that would help a little. Right now I am stuck at 16 gb of memory being used and the other 16 are just sleeping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psandak Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 (edited) Make it 64 bit to utilize more memory, that would help a little. Right now I am stuck at 16 gb of memory being used and the other 16 are just sleeping. You cannot just flip a switch and say "BAM 32-bit is now 64-bit" Edited February 13, 2017 by psandak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forren-Midosea Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Name one MMO running on one of the Frostbite engines. It's appears to be a great engine for single player games... but not for MMOs. Believe it or not, single player games have very different engine requirements to those of MMOs. Which is why most MMO companies either build their own from scratch, or buy one and modify the crap out of it to bring it up to make it their own. The engine in this game is NOT the Hero Engine. It's Biowares custom engine which was built on the skeleton of an early release of Hero Engine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Need_for_Speed_(2015_video_game) all battlefields are doing damn fine in multiplayer. sw battlefront rings a bell? Shadow Realms will be multiplayer rpg. I would consider frostbite engine as mmoable on ease. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedip_enguin Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Need_for_Speed_(2015_video_game) all battlefields are doing damn fine in multiplayer. sw battlefront rings a bell? Shadow Realms will be multiplayer rpg. I would consider frostbite engine as mmoable on ease. The fact that you equate mutliplayer fps and co-op RPGs (one that got canned mid development) to MMO's in terms of infrastructure/backend requirements just because they happen to be 'multiplayer' shows how fundamentally lacking your understanding of software development is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forren-Midosea Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 The fact that you equate mutliplayer fps and co-op RPGs (one that got canned mid development) to MMO's in terms of infrastructure/backend requirements just because they happen to be 'multiplayer' shows how fundamentally lacking your understanding of software development is. And you said that frostbite engine is for single player games only Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedip_enguin Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 And you said that frostbite engine is for single player games only At what point did I say that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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