Can guardians hold their single saber in one hand like Juggernauts do please?

[ForjKlahaa]

In my opinion it looks like they don't know what to do with the weapon as if someone just gave it to them and said "Fight!". The way they hold it out in front of them it looks like they're scared it's about to explode.

 

I know there will be people who would be upset with the change so even if it was a 50/50 split, you probably wouldn't change something that has been this way since launch but I'm on a suggestion roll (not really, I just made a CM armour suggestion) so I thought I'd give it a shot

Edited October 23, 2016 by ForjKlahaa

[jauvtus]

You clearly never used a sword before. Actually the guardians hold it the right way. That position allows both powerful strikes and defensive parries. While the Juggernaut's position is one of the worst ways to hold the saber. You cannot start an actual blow, or parry from that position, you need to move your arm first, losing at least one precious second before any move. It may look "cool", but if anything, they should make juggs hold their sabers like guardians. Trust me I practiced sword fight.

[CrazyCT]

How about holding it like Obi-Wan MacGregor?

[Aeneas_Falco]

You clearly never used a sword before. Actually the guardians hold it the right way. That position allows both powerful strikes and defensive parries. While the Juggernaut's position is one of the worst ways to hold the saber. You cannot start an actual blow, or parry from that position, you need to move your arm first, losing at least one precious second before any move. It may look "cool", but if anything, they should make juggs hold their sabers like guardians. Trust me I practiced sword fight.

 

Good post.

 

A reenactment of medieval/renaissance fencing with long swords:

 

[Rolodome]

I didn't even know there was a difference. Last time I played a Juggy was in beta, now I want to try the difference.

 

Any chance you could post screenshots, comparing the two?

[ForjKlahaa]

You clearly never used a sword before. Actually the guardians hold it the right way. That position allows both powerful strikes and defensive parries. While the Juggernaut's position is one of the worst ways to hold the saber. You cannot start an actual blow, or parry from that position, you need to move your arm first, losing at least one precious second before any move. It may look "cool", but if anything, they should make juggs hold their sabers like guardians. Trust me I practiced sword fight.

 

You are correct that I have never wielded a sword before in my life. I trust you know what you are talking about. I only really care because I think it looks cooler but if you want a semi-technical reason why they might keep one hand free, then it's because they channel force powers through their hands. Their free hand is like their shield hand.

 

Also, a lightsaber is more of a rapier than a longsword (or even a classical sabre) which is a cut-and-thrust, lightweight duelling sword. That's another thing that bugs me about the stance. It makes the the lightsaber seem really heavy but they are not as the hilt is the only part that weighs anything and it's not like it's made of iron. Most of it seems like circuity and a crystal in some space age (presumably lightweight) metal casing. Many casings are little more than frames holding the various bits and bobs together.

Edited October 23, 2016 by ForjKlahaa

[ForjKlahaa]

I didn't even know there was a difference. Last time I played a Juggy was in beta, now I want to try the difference.

 

Any chance you could post screenshots, comparing the two?

 

TOR Fashion has a helpful page that shows how the different ACs can be identified by how they hold their weapon:

 

http://torf.mmo-fashion.com/advanced-class-visual-recognition/#Guardian

 

Juggs hold their sabers similarly to (but slightly differently from) sorcs/sages. Guardians hold the blade upright with both hands. I think it looks dumb hence the thread.

Edited October 23, 2016 by ForjKlahaa

[Rolodome]

TOR Fashion has a helpful page that shows how the different ACs can be identified by how they hold their weapon:

 

http://torf.mmo-fashion.com/advanced-class-visual-recognition/#Guardian

 

Juggs hold their sabers similarly to (but slightly differently) to sorcs/sages. Guardians hold the blade upright with both hands. I think it looks dumb hence the thread.

Cool, thanks. Didn't know TOR fashion had it all up there.

[jauvtus]

You are correct that I have never wielded a sword before in my life. I trust you know what you are talking about. I only really care because I think it looks cooler but if you want a semi-technical reason why they might keep one hand free, then it's because they channel force powers through their hands. Their free hand is like their shield hand.

 

Also, a lightsaber is more of a rapier than a longsword (or even a classical sabre) which is a cut-and-thrust, lightweight duelling sword. That's another thing that bugs me about the stance. It makes the the lightsaber seem really heavy but they are not as the hilt is the only part that weighs anything and it's not like it's made of iron. Most of it seems like circuity and a crystal in some space age (presumably lightweight) metal casing. Many casings are little more than frames holding the various bits and bobs together.

 

It has nothing to do with weight or channeling Force, you can hold the saber with one hand in the position like guardians do, and the blade still has a direction even without weight.

I actually preferred if characters held their sabers according to their Form (from Shii-Cho to Juyo, all 7 forms hold their lightsaber differently, since they have different approaches to fighting), which positions do look cooler while also being practical

[Soljin]

Regardless of proper sword form I support this suggestion.

 

I always prefer Republic and Warrior is my favorite class but I wont play Guardian because they look like they are trying out for T-Ball.

 

Maybe a compromise, change the Guardian animation to hold their saber like a Sage/Sorc/Jugg while in motion. Guardian running with the saber out in front with both hands just appears awkward.

Edited October 24, 2016 by Soljin

[ForjKlahaa]

Regardless of proper sword form I support this suggestion.

 

I always prefer Republic and Warrior is my favorite class but I wont play Guardian because they look like they are trying out for T-Ball.

 

Maybe a compromise, change the Guardian animation to hold their saber like a Sage/Sorc/Jugg while in motion. Guardian running with the saber out in front with both hands just appears awkward.

 

Finally one person agrees with me! I litterally just made a knight and I wanted to do a DPS Guardian for a change but I keep thinking about that stupid baseball bat saber on my tank guardian and I know I'm going to end up with another sentinel instead.

[Nempo]

Also, the reason you cannot wield a light saber if not trained is because while it technically has no weight, it DOES have weight while in motion. This was explained a long time ago in the tabletop RPG handbooks but it is also found on the Lucas Arts canon website (which still exists just now Disney updates it) but I'll summarize it as best I can.

 

A light saber is actually super heated plasma, it is not actually light. It forms a blade by creating a magnetic sheath that holds the plasma in suspension. Now, if you have never played around with high powered magnets and magnetic fields before, it basically functions like this; hold it still and it feels weightless, try to move it quickly (like you would need to use a sword) and it feels like you are trying to move 100lbs. Now you can understand why you need training, as every time you stop moving the light saber in relation to yourself, it goes back to being mostly weightless, and small movements (even walking/running) as long as you keep it oriented the same will be negligible. However the moment you go to swing or block with it the movement is going to re-orient the blade and thus suddenly you are holding onto a war hammer in your hand. Force sense and using the force itself to help wield the weapon is how you fight with it effectively. Without the force you can wield it no better than a club.

 

Basically, be it through actual sword form (which great explanation btw, from one sword user to another you explained it great) or from the scifi technology explanation...the warrior's method for holding the weapon is downright foolish. Personally I love it when people try and 'look cool' while squaring off against me IRL, sure bet they don't feel cool when I take them out in seconds because of how horrible the positioning is.

Remember, you only look cool if you win.

[HeatRacer]

Also, the reason you cannot wield a light saber if not trained is because while it technically has no weight, it DOES have weight while in motion. This was explained a long time ago in the tabletop RPG handbooks but it is also found on the Lucas Arts canon website (which still exists just now Disney updates it) but I'll summarize it as best I can.

 

A light saber is actually super heated plasma, it is not actually light. It forms a blade by creating a magnetic sheath that holds the plasma in suspension. Now, if you have never played around with high powered magnets and magnetic fields before, it basically functions like this; hold it still and it feels weightless, try to move it quickly (like you would need to use a sword) and it feels like you are trying to move 100lbs. Now you can understand why you need training, as every time you stop moving the light saber in relation to yourself, it goes back to being mostly weightless, and small movements (even walking/running) as long as you keep it oriented the same will be negligible. However the moment you go to swing or block with it the movement is going to re-orient the blade and thus suddenly you are holding onto a war hammer in your hand. Force sense and using the force itself to help wield the weapon is how you fight with it effectively. Without the force you can wield it no better than a club.

 

Basically, be it through actual sword form (which great explanation btw, from one sword user to another you explained it great) or from the scifi technology explanation...the warrior's method for holding the weapon is downright foolish. Personally I love it when people try and 'look cool' while squaring off against me IRL, sure bet they don't feel cool when I take them out in seconds because of how horrible the positioning is.

Remember, you only look cool if you win.

 

I think what you might be trying to suggest is that they have a lot of inertia. However, that doesn't exactly make a lot of sense since we see 6 year olds using lightsabers in ep 2, so they clearly do not have any significant amount of inertial resistance. Also, there's several instances of lightsaber use in zero-gee environments, where they are swung about without any kind of inertial (or magnetic) resistance, or else the user would have simply spun themselves instead of the saber.

 

There's also been several instances of non-trained people using lightsabers competently (Cad Bane's fight with Obi Wan and Quinlan Vos comes to mind as one example). General Grievous is also another example of someone who (while trained) doesn't need Force abilities to use lightsabers effectively.

 

It is Jedi/Sith propaganda to say that you need the force to use a lightsaber effectively; regardless of any debatable weight properties, it is still nothing more than a melee weapon that has an approximately meter-long striking surface and is wielded as such. Of course, using the Force makes it a more effective weapon, but the Force assists in pretty much all weapons anyways (including starfighters), so it's a moot point.

Edited October 24, 2016 by HeatRacer

[Aeneas_Falco]

I think what you might be trying to suggest is that they have a lot of inertia. However, that doesn't exactly make a lot of sense since we see 6 year olds using lightsabers in ep 2, so they clearly do not have any significant amount of inertial resistance.

 

Six year olds that are Force users and at the Jedi Temple, meaning they've had at least some rudimentary training in using the Force.

 

Fighting or sparring with lightsabers would not be exactly the same as fencing in real life, because Force users have some limited precognition and can sense opponents strikes before they happen. The Force would also enable the child to overcome the weight of the weapon or inertia.

 

An adult who wasn't a force sensitive would probably struggle to effectively use a lightsaber that a child at the Jedi or Sith Academies could wield with ease.

Edited October 25, 2016 by Aeneas_Falco

[HeatRacer]

Six year olds that are Force users and at the Jedi Temple, meaning they've had at least some rudimentary training in using the Force.

 

Fighting or sparring with lightsabers would not be exactly the same as fencing in real life, because Force users have some limited precognition and can sense opponents strikes before they happen. The Force would also enable the child to overcome the weight of the weapon or inertia.

 

An adult who wasn't a force sensitive would probably struggle to effectively use a lightsaber that a child at the Jedi or Sith Academies could wield with ease.

 

Except all of that was countered by several examples of people without force powers using lightsabers to fight, vs zero examples of any canon reference to lightsabers having ramped-up inertia that requires the Force to overcome.

 

Oh, and to add on top of Cad Bane and Grievous, there was also Pre Vizsla and Cassie Cryar (the woman who stole Ahsoka's lightsaber) who've also used lightsabers without any force powers.

 

Force precognition will help with any weapon, not just lightsabers, so it's a fallacy to think it's a prerequisite to using one.

Edited October 25, 2016 by HeatRacer

[Tsetso]

I think it's probably more or less personal preference. For instance most tennis players play 2 handed backhand but one of the best ones - Roger Federer is playing it with 1 hand.

[Nempo]

HeatRacer, you are forgetting something, you used non-canon references yourself. We only have 2 examples of non-force users wielding light sabers (and the one might actually BE force sensitive) Han and Finn. Han used it to do only one thing, cut open a tauntaun...which frankly required no finesse and no combat situation so there was nothing to actually struggle with. Finn had training to use the riot stick and there has been little hints that he may have some small force sensitivity anyway, yet we see him struggle with the light saber in combat.

Grevious is in a robot body, he was trained to use light sabers but he also has the raw mechanical muscle to brute force them however he needs them.

 

You are right, I was going for inertia but most people respond tot he idea better when I simply say effective weight, which is all inertia really is...artificial weight when trying to change direction of a moving object. A magnetic field can still be a problem in weightlessness and in space, it is still being acted upon by the nearby planets (who have their own magnetic field) and the larger ships such as star destroyers are big enough to have their own gravitational pull through sheer mass when put into space (our own carriers if put into space would actually have small gravitational pulls on things FYI and the capital ships make our modern day carriers look like tinker toys). As was said in regards to your children using them, they are shotos for one (smaller blade, smaller field, less plasma, less inertia) and they are force wielding children who train to wield the things as soon as they can walk more or less (which is why it irks me that in TOR we have adults/near adults still using scifi budoken instead of proper sabers as that is not lore!).

 

It is not propaganda, we simply have had authors over the years want to create a character that would "prove them wrong" so many times that it is practically a trope in the EU now that any non force sensitive main character can use one if they wanted to. Blame unimaginative authors for not following lore and being incapable of thinking about the many saber resistant materials out there that can be put into a real blade for use against a force user. ANY bounty hunter worth their salt would have a retractable blade on them long enough and laced with a saber resistant substance in order to fight against potential force users (especially in the old rep era when fighting against such enemies wasn't such an unknown variable as it is after the galactic empire is formed). Armies would train their troops (at least their special ops/task forces) in how to use a vibrosword properly to defend against saber attacks.

 

That inertia however has it's uses, a spun blade would strike with force greater than the individual could exert themself thanks to the inertial increase of such a weapon. Juyo and Ataru are BASED entirely around this very princible! That is 2 of the 7 forms based entirely around the fact that the saber generates an increasd inertial mass in order to strike that much harder. Shien uses the princible a little but in a far less obvious way and does so with wrist spins to generate the extra force. Soresu uses it in the reverse, keeping the saber close to the body and making small movements in order to have to fight against the inertia a lot less than your opponent thus they will tire faster than you. I'm up to 4 out of 7 forms based around the inertia now. The others aren't quite so focused on the inertia and are based more around how to simply wield the weapon, schii-cho for example is basic sword fighting you or I learn just with some force manuevers thrown in as an example.

 

The lore set down has essentially been ignored by hack authors trying to one up each other with their own 'pet' characters is why you see so many instances of non force users using sabers in the (thankfully) non-canon EU.

[Mevan]

They should add a toggle. Make it earnable, extort money from us for it... whatever. Would happily pay a fair bit of cash to change the terrible way that Juggernauts and Sorcs hold their lightsabers in favour of the Guardian grip.

[HeatRacer]

HeatRacer, you are forgetting something, you used non-canon references yourself. We only have 2 examples of non-force users wielding light sabers (and the one might actually BE force sensitive) Han and Finn. Han used it to do only one thing, cut open a tauntaun...which frankly required no finesse and no combat situation so there was nothing to actually struggle with. Finn had training to use the riot stick and there has been little hints that he may have some small force sensitivity anyway, yet we see him struggle with the light saber in combat.

Grevious is in a robot body, he was trained to use light sabers but he also has the raw mechanical muscle to brute force them however he needs them.

 

You are right, I was going for inertia but most people respond tot he idea better when I simply say effective weight, which is all inertia really is...artificial weight when trying to change direction of a moving object. A magnetic field can still be a problem in weightlessness and in space, it is still being acted upon by the nearby planets (who have their own magnetic field) and the larger ships such as star destroyers are big enough to have their own gravitational pull through sheer mass when put into space (our own carriers if put into space would actually have small gravitational pulls on things FYI and the capital ships make our modern day carriers look like tinker toys). As was said in regards to your children using them, they are shotos for one (smaller blade, smaller field, less plasma, less inertia) and they are force wielding children who train to wield the things as soon as they can walk more or less (which is why it irks me that in TOR we have adults/near adults still using scifi budoken instead of proper sabers as that is not lore!).

 

It is not propaganda, we simply have had authors over the years want to create a character that would "prove them wrong" so many times that it is practically a trope in the EU now that any non force sensitive main character can use one if they wanted to. Blame unimaginative authors for not following lore and being incapable of thinking about the many saber resistant materials out there that can be put into a real blade for use against a force user. ANY bounty hunter worth their salt would have a retractable blade on them long enough and laced with a saber resistant substance in order to fight against potential force users (especially in the old rep era when fighting against such enemies wasn't such an unknown variable as it is after the galactic empire is formed). Armies would train their troops (at least their special ops/task forces) in how to use a vibrosword properly to defend against saber attacks.

 

That inertia however has it's uses, a spun blade would strike with force greater than the individual could exert themself thanks to the inertial increase of such a weapon. Juyo and Ataru are BASED entirely around this very princible! That is 2 of the 7 forms based entirely around the fact that the saber generates an increasd inertial mass in order to strike that much harder. Shien uses the princible a little but in a far less obvious way and does so with wrist spins to generate the extra force. Soresu uses it in the reverse, keeping the saber close to the body and making small movements in order to have to fight against the inertia a lot less than your opponent thus they will tire faster than you. I'm up to 4 out of 7 forms based around the inertia now. The others aren't quite so focused on the inertia and are based more around how to simply wield the weapon, schii-cho for example is basic sword fighting you or I learn just with some force manuevers thrown in as an example.

 

The lore set down has essentially been ignored by hack authors trying to one up each other with their own 'pet' characters is why you see so many instances of non force users using sabers in the (thankfully) non-canon EU.

 

Lol what're you talking about, Clone Wars IS canon, second in level only to the movies themselves. So all the examples of non-force users swinging lightsabers is a helluva lot more official than anything you've theorized.

 

Your argument about Han's usage of a lightsaber is a complete straw man since I never mentioned it or claimed it as an example. You're going off on tangents to try and justify your theory, while ignoring both physics and what is actually canon.

 

A lightsaber is not a magic weapon. It's been established to be plasma contained in a magnetic field. So please enlighten us how magnetically contained plasma magically increases inertia far beyond its mass?

 

If you're going to say that the magnetic field is so strong that it is resisting against even ambient magnetic fields, then it's clear you greatly underestimate how strong of a magnetic field something needs to emit in order to provide noticeable resistance to movement in an open area. And if the field is so strong that people need special powers to swing it, we would see random metal bits attracted to, or repelled, from lightsabers constantly, not to mention screw up electronics within a radius around it.

Edited October 25, 2016 by HeatRacer

[Alexandrozingsw]

hey but current way keeps your cheeks warm

[Deaconik]

Finally one person agrees with me! I litterally just made a knight and I wanted to do a DPS Guardian for a change but I keep thinking about that stupid baseball bat saber on my tank guardian and I know I'm going to end up with another sentinel instead.

 

Agreed.

[Soljin]

It would seem in this game weapon animations are not bound to the weapon but to the class in some way....Clearly since several classes hold single sabers differently.

 

This will likely present some sort of technical difficulty in making the change but I would like to see the option to change to the opposing factions grip style and/or Weapon options.

 

It seems many people took this as an opportunity to argue canon and sword technique.....Since this game is not canon nor real I don't think that should stop this particular request.