Talent Trees are a little lame

[chainsawsamurai]

Is it just me or do our talent trees kind of suck.

 

They discourage any form of hybridization because all of the spec specific talents are at the bottom rather than the top. For example, it is impossible to go past T2 Pyrotech without being forced to take at least one point in a talent that does nothing if you're not using Combustible Gas Cylinder.

 

Compare that to the bottom few tiers of Merc and they can get all the way up the tree without spending a single point on that godforsaken cylinder.

 

The Advanced Prototype tree is a little bit better, but the tree itself seems poorly synergized in comparison to Arsenal. Tracer Missile, Heat Seeker, Barrage, and Tracer Lock all work very well together. We get Retractable Blade, which has mediocre damage compared to Incin Missile (which can be used at 30 yards) and it's only real purpose in the tree seems to be to proc Rail Shot crits -- On an ability that shouldn't be spammed the way Flame Burst is for the Pyrotech talents.

 

The best things in the Shield Tech tree are reseting your Rocket Punch cooldown and venting heat when you're hit, but the amount of actual survivability you gain is pretty pathetic. This didn't use to be that big of an issue, but Jet Charge is now 21 points deep in that tree, forcing us to give up an exorbitant amount of damage in exchange for survivability.

 

While I'm on the subject: Why the hell is Jet Charge (Gap closer, utilizes rocketpack every BH has plainly on their backs, does damage) in the Tank tree and Grapple (Pull to you, no damage, METRIC TON OF THREAT) given to everyone? Doesn't it seem like those should be switched? In PvE it gives a DPS PT no suitable gap closer and in PvP it would be about a wash anyway. What gives on that?

 

It just seems like these trees aren't very well organized, give exponential benefit the deeper you go, and therefore seem to outright discourage creativity and hybridization.

Edited December 28, 2011 by chainsawsamurai

[Seroxxx]

Is it just me or do our talent trees kind of suck.

 

While I'm on the subject: Why the hell is Jet Charge (Gap closer, utilizes rocketpack every BH has plainly on their backs, does damage) in the Tank tree and Grapple (Pull to you, no damage, METRIC TON OF THREAT) given to everyone? Doesn't it seem like those should be switched? In PvE it gives a DPS PT no suitable gap closer and in PvP it would be about a wash anyway. What gives on that?

 

Well said.

 

I do tank as Pyrotech BH in FPs, and i love to utilize the threat generation of grapple; but your point makes much more sense in terms of threat. They dont need to switched. Just buff Jet charge with the same amount of threat.

[Lyrre]

I feel the same way! I loved my powertech at first but at later levels (36 now) it just feels like we got the short end of the stick. I do decent damage as a pyrotech, but good god is this spec boring. IM, RS, then spam FB and RP using RS when it procs...and that's it. We have no gap closer unless we want to tank, and the one way to get an opponent into melee range with us is to use a pull which is almost a taunt. I can't say much for advanced prototype but that tree just sounds like poor damage and very unorganized and unsynergized utility.

 

I've been playing an alt operative healer and I'm considering letting my friends get ahead of me so I can make that my main instead. i like the powertech as a whole, I just feel underwhelmed while my friends seem to get stronger and cooler the more they level

[chainsawsamurai]

Well said.

 

I do tank as Pyrotech BH in FPs, and i love to utilize the threat generation of grapple; but your point makes much more sense in terms of threat. They dont need to switched. Just buff Jet charge with the same amount of threat.

 

I think they DO need to be switched.

 

There's a good chance there will be more PT's than Tanks in some OPs and currently those guys have zero means of closing gaps. No force leap, no Force Speed, nothing. That's a problem.

[chainsawsamurai]

I'm not done here.

 

Shield Tech? The tree is awful. The only good thing in there is Jet Charge and debatably Oil Slick.

 

Juggernauts/Guardians (who already have a better Tanking cooldown baseline) get:

 

--an amazing tanking cooldown

-- an instant ranged CC

--a hard hitting 31 pointer (which also debuffs the target's defenses)

--Crowd Control break Cooldown reduction

--a damage absorb attached to a commonly used ability

--Better resource generation AND cost reductions

 

Assassins/Shadows (who have TWO tanking cooldowns that are situationally better baseline) Get:

 

--Spammable Shield (can be kept up almost indefinitely), which is almost on par with our 3 minute defensive cooldown

--Ability "proc" effect refreshes cooldown of common attack (like ours) and also grants an automatic crit (better). There also doesn't seem to be an internal cooldown on the ability like Flame Shield has. It ALSO can be used offensively instead of relying on being hit.

--Movement impairing effects break attatched to a commonly used ability

--Crap ton of damage on commonly used abilites

--Incredible Resource regeneration

 

Am I missing something here or does it seem like the Shieldtech tree looks entirely slapped together and haphazard compared to these tanking trees? How much actual survivability do we gain compared to the DPS we lose by specing in to Shieldtech? Did we get the shaft here completely? It feels like I'm taking crazy pills.

[Spyde]

Juggernauts/Guardians (who already have a better Tanking cooldown baseline) get:

 

--an amazing tanking cooldown - 3 Min Cooldown, Players with high accuracy can still bypass, you get a flat out 25% less damage

-- an instant ranged CC Please tell me you dont mean Force Choke.. that is channeled with short range and takes talents to not channel.. compared to Electro Dart....

--a hard hitting 31 pointer (which also debuffs the target's defenses)

--Crowd Control break Cooldown reduction oh crap.. 1.5min cooldown instead of 2.. Powertech gets pull, and charge in tank tree..

--a damage absorb attached to a commonly used ability Force Scream will maybe absorb 1/4 to half a hit in Operations.. compared to the insane high shield chance on powrtech

--Better resource generation AND cost reductions I know its great..Having 8 of your 20 talents for Rage/cooldowns.. compared to venting 8 heat when you shield an attack every 6 sec, and 31pt talent vents heat + damage

 

 

Lets not mention all the Aoe Threat compared to Juggers running all over to try to gather mobs for their 1 aoe thats worth a crap

 

Go check the Jugger forum, how many people complaining how the class is crap to level, terribad vs multi targets etc etc. before you complain about it here

[chainsawsamurai]

OK. Line by line. Bear in mind I was talking about the tanking talent trees, something which you were clearly unaware of. Words are hard sometimes, I know.

 

--an amazing tanking cooldown - 3 Min Cooldown, Players with high accuracy can still bypass, you get a flat out 25% less damage

 

Yes, they get 50% defense increase from Saber Ward. NO ONE is going to "bypass" but they can mitigate the loss of damage. They can't mitigate the FLAT 25% FORCE AND TECH DAMAGE REDUCTION. Saber Ward is at least as good as our shield, likely better.

 

But what I was talking about is Invincible, which is a flat 40% damage reduction. In addition to Saber Ward.

 

Really no point in debating Endure Pain and Kolto Overload, they're probably situationally about equal aside from super hard hitting raid bosses (which is the important part) in which case Endure Pain wins.

 

-- an instant ranged CC Please tell me you dont mean Force Choke.. that is channeled with short range and takes talents to not channel.. compared to Electro Dart....

 

Again, talking about their tanking tree. Yes it does take their mediocre Force Choke and turn it in to something awesome. It also does damage and generates Rage. They also get Back hand. You can cry about Electro-Dart's 30 yard range all you want, I'd still take 2 CC's over 1 CC. 3 if you count the hard stun on Leap, but that seems a waste of resolve in PvP and this conversation is sort of encompassing both pvp and pve so screw it.

 

--a hard hitting 31 pointer (which also debuffs the target's defenses)

 

You've got nothing for this, but I just wanted to reiterate how much balls our 31 pointer is. It's super balls. By balls I of course mean not good. This isn't an 80's "bad is good" thing, I'm talking nasty balls.

 

--Crowd Control break Cooldown reduction oh crap.. 1.5min cooldown instead of 2.. Powertech gets pull, and charge in tank tree..

 

Still 30 seconds less than we've got. Awfully nice in PvP and situationally nice in PvE.

 

You get an Intervene skill (in PvP and PvE it is situationally invaluable) as well as having a Charge OUT of tree. Charge AND intervene, no specing required. MUCH better battlefield mobility.

 

Grapple is terrible. Can't be used while DPSing because of the attached threat. Nearly half the time I use it in PvP the target goes flying somewhere else or doesn't go anywhere because they're stuck by the retarded amounts of roots and cc in this game.

 

The best use of Grapple is to yank someone into Lava/Fire Traps. I know you guys are mad jelly of us because you can't... oh wait, Force Push. That's an awful lot easier to get the other team into traps with isn't it? Moving on.

 

With a Warrior's charge you get to where you want to be almost all of the time (barring random crap like Huttball vent weirdness etc, we deal with that with Jet Charge too). Also it is a 15 second cooldown compared to Grapple's 45 (35 with talents, woo hoo), a non-tank spec PT is suckin on mobility.

 

Did I mention we have to spec just to get an unreliable 2 second snare? How is Chilling Scream working for you?

 

Most importantly, you get all this battlefield control without spending a single talent point. How come if a PT asks for a simple change of swapping Jet Charge to trainable and Grapple to the tank tree (you know, cause of the threat) people act like we're asking for the sun and the moon.

 

--a damage absorb attached to a commonly used ability Force Scream will maybe absorb 1/4 to half a hit in Operations.. compared to the insane high shield chance on powrtech

 

So stack more shields. I really fail to see how that is my problem. The Force Scream shield is awesome in PvP and that 1/4 - 1/2 of a hit in Ops is still pretty decent.

 

--Better resource generation AND cost reductions I know its great..Having 8 of your 20 talents for Rage/cooldowns.. compared to venting 8 heat when you shield an attack every 6 sec, and 31pt talent vents heat + damage

 

Ill refer you back to exactly how awful Heat Blast is. It's pretty terrible. Hell it is a threat loss to use the silly *** thing most of the time.

 

As far as venting on shielding goes Juggs have practically the same damn talent from Revenge. If you're complaining about shielding, stack more. Juggs don't get quite as much benefit from it as PT's do, but if you're not stacking it then coming here to complain you don't have enough that isn't our problem.

 

We get 8% more shield chance and 6% more absorption from talents. Together it averages out to .4% more mitigation than you're capable of if we both stack the same amount of Shield and Absorption rating.

 

Lets not mention all the Aoe Threat compared to Juggers running all over to try to gather mobs for their 1 aoe thats worth a crap

 

So what? We've got all the AoE in the world and you got all the good mitigation cooldowns.

 

Somewhere between a Jugg and a Powertech is a class that can hold multi-mob aggro AND not get his *** kicked more than necessary. Probably bad design on both sides of the coin here, but in the mean time we should both probably just suck it up, use some CC, and ask for focused fire huh?

 

Go check the Jugger forum, how many people complaining how the class is crap to level, terribad vs multi targets etc etc. before you complain about it here

 

Death From Above is admittedly pretty awesome for leveling and they were smart enough to give us our Healing companion first and a high-dps ranged second, makes a really big difference.

 

You guys probably could use another AoE for tanking, so cry about it over on the Jugg forums. Wont help your leveling problem, Flame Spin is prohibitively expensive and it's almost always better to just burn one at a time, I don't see your situation being any different.

 

I've always wondered why Force Scream wasn't a cone though.

Edited December 28, 2011 by chainsawsamurai

[Elicas]

I disagree, our tanking tree works well in my opinion.

 

To the OP; no we can't be Hybrids very effectively, but then in most mmo's hybridisation is punished. That's the price you pay to try and be the jack of all trades, master of none.

[EzFlyer]

how are oil slick and jet charge the only good shieldtech talents?

 

what about heat blast? a 15 sec CD that does decent damage AND removes heat. love it. i worked it into my rotation right away and it makes the class even more fun, because i get to use more skills per rotation.

 

what about +10% shielding (the 5 pts at the top). that's substantial as heck.

 

MANY of the talents in SWTOR are a little "meh". same for my sith warrior. very minor things like "increased crit damage to fire attacks" etc and some general filler talents.

 

i'd agree that in general, the talent trees need a little reworking, but i expect they will get just that in major patches in future, just like WoW.

[chainsawsamurai]

I think Heat Blast is a trap. The damage is absolutely abysmal, it may even be a threat loss compared to Rapid Shots (plus Ion cylinder of course). Rapid Shots also doesn't have such a lousy activation/animation time. For what? So you can Flame Burst a few more times here and there as filler? Also pretty abysmal.

 

Not to mention, it's ugly. My 31 point talent has my hero awkwardly hold his weapon at his hip while his pistol wheezes a bit of orange and sparks like a leprous Charmander. Yeah, that's iconic alright...

 

10% shielding is also not all that wonderful until you have a ridiculous amount of Absorb. Even then, at 2% shielding a point it is still lack-luster but maybe worth it. If you have 40% absorb then those 5 talent points buy you 4% mitigation. Whupdeedoo, you get that much for less investment lower in the tree. Really craptacular T6 talent.

 

Counting on that 10% absorb for your Shield Vents talent? Don't. At a 6 second ICD you're guaranteed to get it going regularly without five entire points wasted on that inefficient talent.

 

6% absorb from Ablative Upgrades is also crap, but it also comes with a Kolto Overload decrease. This makes for a much better talent than buying 10% more shield at 2% a point and no frills. Aside from inefficient, those talent points are boring. Leveling and putting points into it knowing that I had nothing to look forward to for five whole levels but 2% more shielding was miserable.

 

I don't have it anymore. Don't miss it. Don't even notice it's gone. I'll try again when I break 40-45% absorb.

 

The ONLY reason to take those 5 points is if you are absolutely married to Heat Blast, and only because there aren't really any choices or options in the Shieldtech tree. Really there is a core of 25 points then a "choice" of Rail Shot increase (more threat), Jet Speed (maybe wrangling big packs or pvp), No Escape (lets face it, the main point here is Huttball traps), or that godforsaken inefficient shield talent.

 

Talent Trees are supposed to give choices and customization, not the illusion of choice and customization.

 

These talents don't give choices and the trees actively discourage hybridization. They might as well have you choose a spec and assign you the points themselves, it would save you the trouble of clicking the same 41 talents over and over as you bounce between the 3-4 specs that are remotely functional.

 

I love Bioware to death, I think that they've made a hell of a game when you look at the big picture, but they're really no good at putting together Talent Trees and PT's trees suck especially hard.

Edited December 28, 2011 by chainsawsamurai

[zerovex]

I disagree, our tanking tree works well in my opinion.

 

To the OP; no we can't be Hybrids very effectively, but then in most mmo's hybridisation is punished. That's the price you pay to try and be the jack of all trades, master of none.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301GoGrdRboMZMsMroZb.1 is an awesome pvp spec.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Sireene
insulting

[badalchemist]

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301GoGrdRboMZMsMroZb.1 is an awesome pvp spec.

 

Ah yes, the Annoying Bag of Toys spec. That certainly looks fun for screwing with people in PvP. It just sucks to not have dual spec, because not only will you be a bad tank, you'll actually probably piss off the person who is tanking with the increased threat and whipping mobs around.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Sireene
reply to edited post

[EzFlyer]

I think Heat Blast is a trap. The damage is absolutely abysmal, it may even be a threat loss compared to Rapid Shots (plus Ion cylinder of course). Rapid Shots also doesn't have such a lousy activation/animation time. For what? So you can Flame Burst a few more times here and there as filler? Also pretty abysmal.

 

Not to mention, it's ugly. My 31 point talent has my hero awkwardly hold his weapon at his hip while his pistol wheezes a bit of orange and sparks like a leprous Charmander. Yeah, that's iconic alright...

 

10% shielding is also not all that wonderful until you have a ridiculous amount of Absorb. Even then, at 2% shielding a point it is still lack-luster but maybe worth it. If you have 40% absorb then those 5 talent points buy you 4% mitigation. Whupdeedoo, you get that much for less investment lower in the tree. Really craptacular T6 talent.

 

Counting on that 10% absorb for your Shield Vents talent? Don't. At a 6 second ICD you're guaranteed to get it going regularly without five entire points wasted on that inefficient talent.

 

6% absorb from Ablative Upgrades is also crap, but it also comes with a Kolto Overload decrease. This makes for a much better talent than buying 10% more shield at 2% a point and no frills. Aside from inefficient, those talent points are boring. Leveling and putting points into it knowing that I had nothing to look forward to for five whole levels but 2% more shielding was miserable.

 

I don't have it anymore. Don't miss it. Don't even notice it's gone. I'll try again when I break 40-45% absorb.

 

The ONLY reason to take those 5 points is if you are absolutely married to Heat Blast, and only because there aren't really any choices or options in the Shieldtech tree. Really there is a core of 25 points then a "choice" of Rail Shot increase (more threat), Jet Speed (maybe wrangling big packs or pvp), No Escape (lets face it, the main point here is Huttball traps), or that godforsaken inefficient shield talent.

 

Talent Trees are supposed to give choices and customization, not the illusion of choice and customization.

 

These talents don't give choices and the trees actively discourage hybridization. They might as well have you choose a spec and assign you the points themselves, it would save you the trouble of clicking the same 41 talents over and over as you bounce between the 3-4 specs that are remotely functional.

 

I love Bioware to death, I think that they've made a hell of a game when you look at the big picture, but they're really no good at putting together Talent Trees and PT's trees suck especially hard.

 

thoughtful post, i just hit 41, so take that into consideration. noted about the high end shieldtech talents. they've seemed good so far, but limited time with them.

Edited December 28, 2011 by EzFlyer

[zerovex]

Ah yes, the Annoying Bag of Toys spec. That certainly looks fun for screwing with people in PvP. It just sucks to not have dual spec, because not only will you be a bad tank, you'll actually probably piss off the person who is tanking with the increased threat and whipping mobs around.

 

Like credits are an issue in this game? Just go respec...Who the hell goes and pve tanks/dps with their pvp build anyway? My only point was that hybrid specs are completely viable and people who insist you have to max out a tree are wrong when it comes to pvp.

[Elicas]

Like credits are an issue in this game? Just go respec...Who the hell goes and pve tanks/dps with their pvp build anyway? My only point was that hybrid specs are completely viable and people who insist you have to max out a tree are wrong when it comes to pvp.

 

Meh, as if PvP was anything other than an after thought in this game. If you want to do any progressive PvE you need to max the tree, 25+ points minimum.

 

Perhaps you can hybridise in PvP, perhaps not. Either way, you'll never be anything more than a gimmicky spec, evidenced by the one you linked.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Sireene
reply to edited post

[zerovex]

Meh, as if PvP was anything other than an after thought in this game. If you want to do any progressive PvE you need to max the tree, 25+ points minimum.

 

Perhaps you can hybridise in PvP, perhaps not. Either way, you'll never be anything more than a gimmicky spec, evidenced by the one you linked.

 

You are wrong. I top mitigation and damage charts in pvp with that spec all the time. Perhaps you need to learn to think outside the box...

Basically what you are saying is that not having 10 percent shield chance and heat blast is some how gimp...when in reality it's negligible.

Thanks for the laugh tho.

Edited December 28, 2011 by zerovex

[Elicas]

You are wrong. I top mitigation and damage charts in pvp with that spec all the time. Perhaps you need to learn to think outside the box...

Basically what you are saying is that not having 10 percent shield chance and heat blast is some how gimp...when in reality it's negligible.

Thanks for the laugh tho.

 

As I said, in PvP perhaps.

 

In PvE it will always be gimp, end of.

[zerovex]

As I said, in PvP perhaps.

 

In PvE it will always be gimp, end of.

 

 

I never said anything about pve...you are the one that threw out a blanket statement of:

 

I disagree, our tanking tree works well in my opinion.

 

To the OP; no we can't be Hybrids very effectively, but then in most mmo's hybridisation is punished. That's the price you pay to try and be the jack of all trades, master of none.

 

Seeing as how you are back peddling now, I can safely say your statement of absolutes was wrong and that hybrid specs do have viability in pvp, end of!

[Elicas]

I never said anything about pve...you are the one that threw out a blanket statement of:

 

 

 

Seeing as how you are back peddling now, I can safely say your statement of absolutes was wrong and that hybrid specs do have viability in pvp, end of!

 

Fair do, will hold my hands up and say that blanket statement was wrong, let me amend that to "In PvE;".

 

As I care nothing for PvP, I never even considered it when making my original statement.

[zerovex]

Fair do, will hold my hands up and say that blanket statement was wrong, let me amend that to "In PvE;".

 

As I care nothing for PvP, I never even considered it when making my original statement.

 

lol. I care nothing for pve, however I do agree that maxing out a tree for pve is generally the smart thing to do. I just had a problem with the statement you made because I thought you were including all aspects of the game...I apologize for my assumption.

 

I have had great success with hybrid builds in every mmo I have ever played in a pvp setting. wow, war, aoc, and etc. These hybrid builds usually work so well that they inevitably get nerfed and/or have the trees changed around in order to make getting, what you call, "gimmicks" all but impossible.

Edited December 29, 2011 by zerovex

[Elicas]

lol. I care nothing for pve, however I do agree that maxing out a tree for pve is generally the smart thing to do. I just had a problem with the statement you made because I thought you were including all aspects of the game...I apologize for my assumption.

 

I have had great success with hybrid builds in every mmo I have ever played in a pvp setting. wow, war, aoc, and etc. These hybrid builds usually work so well that they inevitably get nerfed and/or have the trees changed around in order to make getting, what you call, "gimmicks" all but impossible.

 

Fair enough mate, I also apologise for not considering your playstyle.

 

One thing I like about the BH boards, we're all friendly people at the end of the day =)

[zerovex]

Fair enough mate, I also apologise for not considering your playstyle.

 

One thing I like about the BH boards, we're all friendly people at the end of the day =)

 

True. Have fun and take care. Later. =)

Edited December 29, 2011 by zerovex

[Waron]

As I care nothing for PvP,

 

Good thing you took it upon yourself to write a PvP section in your powertech guide, and a specific PvP spec then ;P

 

To OP: I really agree, the trees for our class is hopelessly designed, it feels more like choosing between crap I don't want. Than going for something I do.

 

IMO they need to design more talents for Power/Vanguards, or remove this ridicoulus dependency on using diffrent cells/ammo. (Why don't they want us changing them? Tactical choices like that is really cool...)

[chainsawsamurai]

I'm going to go ahead and respectfully disagree with you though.

 

Heat Blast is awful. Our entire tanking tree is not very well designed, but Heat Blast espescially. It works out to about .5 extra heat a second on a spec that really shouldn't have any Heat problems in the first place. Heat Blast would need a pretty major redesign to be worth a 31 point investment.

 

10% extra shield chance is nice. Not for 5 points and not so damn deep in the tree. This talent is bad, it is boring, and it really doesn't work out to much more mitigation. For players that aren't well geared taking all 5 points is less mitigation than the mitigation and utlity provided by spending those points elsewhere. It takes 50% absorb to make this talent worth 1% mitigation per talent point investment, a gear level you wont even see until 50.

 

Extra heat venting is sort of moot since the 6 second ICD will make the venting fairly consistent no matter what.

 

You seem to have a lot of support for the design philosophy of specialization, I have a lot of support for the design philosophy of versatility.

 

We really can't say, objectively, which is better game design.

 

I argue, subjectively, that versatility is better game design for MMOs because of the huge number of players. Allowing for more tricks and tactics than just "Oh that guy is a Shield Tech, he can charge" or "this dude is a Pyro so he's got Thermal Detonator" is more interesting for the community in both pve and pvp.

 

The point of the matter however, is that our trees just aren't very well designed. In the case of shield tech it seems to have little incentive for specialization (our deep talents are lackluster, especially compared to the other Tanks) and little opportunity for versatility. I think we can agree that this is a bad thing.

[chainsawsamurai]

IMO they need to design more talents for Power/Vanguards, or remove this ridicoulus dependency on using diffrent cells/ammo. (Why don't they want us changing them? Tactical choices like that is really cool...)

 

I completely agree here, but I don't think we have any hope of the cells going away since most of the classes are shackled to a similar mechanic.

 

I definitely think that a talent which improves or forces you to use a specific cell should be a lot higher up than the second tier, and that additional options should be there to allow you to circumvent these talents.

 

Prototype Cells and Defensive Forms are great low tier talents. They provide a benefit to any of the specs and don't shove you in to only one cell/form/playstyle. Superheated Gas and Bursting Flame require the specialized cylinder and the tree requires investment in one or the other to progress.

 

Pyrotech is especially bad for this, but Adv Proto and Shieldtech aren't much better.

Edited December 29, 2011 by chainsawsamurai