Are ops/raids outdated?

[Slowpokeking]

No, I really don't see the point.

 

1. I ask: "Why not do SM?"

2. You say: "Different mechanics in NM"

3. You say: "That are not a big deal when you are overleveled"

 

???

 

Why is "having different mechanics" a draw for NM if you are overleveled and can ignore them?

 

So I ask again: Why not do SM instead?

 

NO, why aren't you getting it?

 

It's no longer that big of a deal when you are overleveled, but it still matters unlike SM, do you see it?

[Crossward]

NO, why aren't you getting it?

 

It's no longer that big of a deal when you are overleveled, but it still matters unlike SM, do you see it?

 

I really, really don't.

[IanArgent]

NO, why aren't you getting it?

 

It's no longer that big of a deal when you are overleveled, but it still matters unlike SM, do you see it?

 

By design, you cannot overlevel content any more - see level sync.

 

You also argue in successive posts that some operations are too easy, but other operations should be made easier. That's what I don't get.

[Slowpokeking]

I really, really don't.

For the example of Kephess, yes it's possible to kill it when the droids reaches 8 stacks, but it would make the fight very hard even for a full group because of the damage output from the droids, you need to focus to keep the tanks alive.

 

So the mechanic still matters, it's just not that hard anymore.

[Slowpokeking]

By design, you cannot overlevel content any more - see level sync.

 

You also argue in successive posts that some operations are too easy, but other operations should be made easier. That's what I don't get.

 

So this has took out people's fun and make some ops in awkward position due to various reason.

 

Because they drop the same level gear but there are huge difficulty gaps between them, isn't it hard to understand?

Edited March 23, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[IanArgent]

So this has took out people's fun and make some ops in awkward position due to various reason.

 

Because they drop the same level gear but there are huge difficulty gaps between them, isn't it hard to understand?

 

Then tighten up the difficulty gap, either by making EV/KP harder or ToS easier, or both. But that's not what you're asking for - you want EV/KP be made easier by returning them to L50, and leaving ToS alone.

[Crossward]

For the example of Kephess, yes it's possible to kill it when the droids reaches 8 stacks, but it would make the fight very hard even for a full group because of the damage output from the droids, you need to focus to keep the tanks alive.

 

So the mechanic still matters, it's just not that hard anymore.

 

And you're arguing that doing it this way is more desirable than scaling it up like they did because EC is old content, right?

 

If so, I reject your idea.

 

I reject the premise that old content should be rendered farmable and obsolete, especially after seeing how SWTOR has made old planets relevant again with level sync.

 

I reject the idea that it's desirable to just wait out the clock until NiM loot becomes PuGable, especially when there's an option to make that content relevant no matter the expansion cycle.

 

I reject the conclusion that the solution to your perceived woes rely on turning SM ops into something akin to tactical flashpoints or solo-mode adventures, and turning NiM modes into something that's functionally as easy as current-content story modes.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Crossward

[Khevar]

NO, why aren't you getting it?

 

It's no longer that big of a deal when you are overleveled, but it still matters unlike SM, do you see it?

I really don't see it AT ALL.

 

Nightmare is appealing to people that want challenging content. You are asking to make Nightmare content NOT challenging. Story Mode content already isn't challenging. But somehow running SM doesn't solve your problem?

 

?????

Edited March 23, 2016 by Khevar

[IanArgent]

And you're arguing that doing it this way is more desirable than scaling it up like they did because EC is old content, right?

 

If so, I reject your idea.

 

I reject the premise that old content should be rendered farmable and obsolete, especially after seeing how SWTOR has made old planets relevant again with level sync.

 

I reject the idea that it's desirable to just wait out the clock until NiM loot becomes PuGable, especially when there's an option to make that content relevant no matter the expansion cycle.

 

I reject the conclusion that the solution to your perceived woes rely on turning SM ops into something akin to tactical flashpoints or solo-mode adventures, and turning NiM modes into something that's functionally as easy as current-content story modes.

 

/applause

 

I was all for giving him the benefit of the doubt there, but it was getting harder and harder every time he posted.

[Slowpokeking]

And you're arguing that doing it this way is more desirable than scaling it up like they did because EC is old content, right?

 

If so, I reject your idea.

 

I reject the premise that old content should be rendered farmable and obsolete, especially after seeing how SWTOR has made old planets relevant again with level sync.

 

I reject the idea that it's desirable to just wait out the clock until NiM loot becomes PuGable, especially when there's an option to make that content relevant no matter the expansion cycle.

 

I reject the conclusion that the solution to your perceived woes rely on turning SM ops into something akin to tactical flashpoints or solo-mode adventures, and turning NiM modes into something that's functionally as easy as current-content story modes.

It is more desirable than keep wiping out or never be able to find a group to do it.

 

What is NIM mode? Super hard content which was designed for a tiny group of elite guild, it was not designed for the majority, the majority don't find too much fun from it because it was too hard for them. That's why most of the people don't do them, and this is why even Bioware had given up on it. There are wayyy too few people were running. So yes, making it like that, is more fun and desirable to most of the people, when the elite guild had moved on.

 

If it was desirable to most of the people, why don't we see many people doing it? Why did Bioware stop make them? In 3.0 there were more pugs running it, why? Because the difficulty had been toned down.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Slowpokeking]

Then tighten up the difficulty gap, either by making EV/KP harder or ToS easier, or both. But that's not what you're asking for - you want EV/KP be made easier by returning them to L50, and leaving ToS alone.

What is the reasonable difficulty for these ops then? Let me ask you.

 

I want us to have option to run them both at level 50/60 and 65, what's wrong for that?

[Slowpokeking]

I really don't see it AT ALL.

 

Nightmare is appealing to people that want challenging content. You are asking to make Nightmare content NOT challenging. Story Mode content already isn't challenging. But somehow running SM doesn't solve your problem?

 

?????

How many people want them? If there are many, why did Bioware give up on them? Even during their prime, too few people were running them, right now there are even less people due to various reasons. So you would prefer it to die rather than letting more people to do it?

 

Like I said before, nightmare ops was meant to be challenging, but its era has long gone, many of the raiders had moved on, and you say it should still be kept at that difficulty to let it die?

[Eldren]

How many people want them? If there are many, why did Bioware give up on them? Even during their prime, too few people were running them, right now there are even less people due to various reasons. So you would prefer it to die rather than letting more people to do it?

 

Like I said before, nightmare ops was meant to be challenging, but its era has long gone, many of the raiders had moved on, and you say it should still be kept at that difficulty to let it die?

 

The problem is your assertion that letting it remain where it's at now will "let it die". The way you word your proposition, it requires someone to accept your premise (that it'll die as it is) before they can address your argument.

 

Homey don't play dat.

 

By scaling the content, it remains relevant for a population that's largely at the level cap and eagerly devouring each new bit of content that Knights of the Fallen Empire gives them. They want new content, and story content at that. To have things to do that aren't faceroll, they're able to continue with existing content that's adjusted to their level.

 

This is not a bad thing. It keeps the existing people around. You seem to believe it's what's driven people off, when the actual reasons are likely as varied as players are themselves.

 

You make a lot of suppositions and emphatic statements in your posts, but what you're really coming down to is this: "Let us faceroll earlier content to get stuff we want from it, and give us new raid content at the level cap."

 

That's not a bad idea... except the player base doesn't seem oriented along those lines right now (or it wouldn't be unreasonable to conclude that BioWare would be creating new content of that kind; they're creating the kind of content their metrics are showing them the majority of players want), and since development resources are limited, they have to choose where those resources can have the greatest impact, and right now it isn't on level capped raiding. So they enter a middle ground where the existing endgame raids scale up. The folks who want harder content get it. The ones who don't get Story Mode. Far more people win than with what you propose based on the current apparent focus of the players.

[IanArgent]

What is the reasonable difficulty for these ops then? Let me ask you.

 

I want us to have option to run them both at level 50/60 and 65, what's wrong for that?

 

Operations are "elder game" content; IE, endgame content. They should be challenging at the level cap. There are already two difficulty settings, normal and hard mode. (3, for some operations).

[Slowpokeking]

Operations are "elder game" content; IE, endgame content. They should be challenging at the level cap. There are already two difficulty settings, normal and hard mode. (3, for some operations).

 

 

Which ops wasn't challenging or end game content when it came out? But it had served its purpose already. Like how WOW goes with the raid.

 

There should always be challenging ops but it doesn't mean every ops should always stay for endgame.

[Khevar]

How many people want them? If there are many, why did Bioware give up on them? Even during their prime, too few people were running them, right now there are even less people due to various reasons. So you would prefer it to die rather than letting more people to do it?

Please stop shifting the argument into this nebulous range of "other people" and "the state of the game"

 

That's a pointless direction for discussion. Neither you nor I can speak on behalf of a group of players.

 

You are not here lobbying on behalf of "nerf NM ops" because some benefit for others. You're here for some specific benefit to YOU PERSONALLY. Questions I've asked about personal benefit to you go unanswered.

 

You personally, could run SM operations and have the experience of running an operation.

 

1. You'd get to see the environments

2. You'd get to see the combat encounters.

3. You'd get to see the cutscenes.

4. You'd get to see the bosses.

5. It also allows for not requiring a full group (one of your complaints earlier in this thread).

6. It also is not challenging (one of the other things you desire).

 

But for some reason, this isn't enough. You want to run NM as well, but not for the challenge. You want it nerfed. You want to run it 5 levels over, 10 levels over, 15 levels over. Also "faceroll" was the exact word you used in an earlier thread. It's pretty clear the experience you want with NM ops.

 

Now, because you haven't actually answered my questions, I have to read between the lines. And the only thing I can think of is:

 

"You want fancy NM drops by doing easy content"

 

It's the only thing that makes sense!

 

And to be perfectly honest, I'm NOT knocking you for wanting this. If that is actually what you want, then for the love of Bog just be honest about it. At least it's a decent starting point for a discussion.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Khevar

[IanArgent]

Which ops wasn't challenging or end game content when it came out? But it had served its purpose already. Like how WOW goes with the raid.

 

There should always be challenging ops but it doesn't mean every ops should always stay for endgame.

 

Why not? That's a game design decision. This game's made enough mistakes by cargo-culting WoW, instead of doing their own thing.

[Slowpokeking]

The problem is your assertion that letting it remain where it's at now will "let it die". The way you word your proposition, it requires someone to accept your premise (that it'll die as it is) before they can address your argument.

 

Homey don't play dat.

So how many people will run them? Even at its prime there were too few even for Bioware to continue the NIM ops.

 

By scaling the content, it remains relevant for a population that's largely at the level cap and eagerly devouring each new bit of content that Knights of the Fallen Empire gives them. They want new content, and story content at that. To have things to do that aren't faceroll, they're able to continue with existing content that's adjusted to their level.

How big was the population then?

 

EVEN at these NIM ops' prime, which was fresh and new also drops top tier gear. There were too few people doing it, which is why Bioware had stopped to make them. Now, after it becomes really old, you can get drops from other easy ops, after many raiders are gone or got bored with them. You are saying it's still better to keep it for a tiny little population, rather than let the majority of the people be able to enjoy them? Even at 3.0 there were more people trying the NIM.

 

 

This is not a bad thing. It keeps the existing people around. You seem to believe it's what's driven people off, when the actual reasons are likely as varied as players are themselves.

 

How many existing people are running old NIM ops? If there were many, why did Bioware even stop on new NIM mode?

 

You make a lot of suppositions and emphatic statements in your posts, but what you're really coming down to is this: "Let us faceroll earlier content to get stuff we want from it, and give us new raid content at the level cap."

 

Isn't it what a MMO lifespan is and what SWTOR was doing before KOTFE? They give the raiders new carrot to chase and leave the old content for more people to enjoy.

 

 

That's not a bad idea... except the player base doesn't seem oriented along those lines right now (or it wouldn't be unreasonable to conclude that BioWare would be creating new content of that kind; they're creating the kind of content their metrics are showing them the majority of players want), and since development resources are limited, they have to choose where those resources can have the greatest impact, and right now it isn't on level capped raiding. So they enter a middle ground where the existing endgame raids scale up. The folks who want harder content get it. The ones who don't get Story Mode. Far more people win than with what you propose based on the current apparent focus of the players.

 

So it's better to set all the ops on the same level and drop the same tier, when there are huge gaps between the difficulty? It's better to keep the NIM even though there were so few people doing them rather than give them to the majority? Don't you see the problem?

[Slowpokeking]

Why not? That's a game design decision. This game's made enough mistakes by cargo-culting WoW, instead of doing their own thing.

 

Because it doesn't work since they were not designed as the same tier ops but now they were brought to the same level and drop the same gear? Because they are really old?

[IanArgent]

The importance of NiM isn't the (statted) gear; it's the achievement (and the related cosmetic gear and decos). It's fine if only a tiny fraction of people can ever obtain those, because they aren't mechanically important.

[Slowpokeking]

Please stop shifting the argument into this nebulous range of "other people" and "the state of the game"

 

That's a pointless direction for discussion. Neither you nor I can speak on behalf of a group of players.

 

Bioware can speak for people, even they had given up on NIM ops.

 

You are not here lobbying on behalf of "nerf NM ops" because some benefit for others. You're here for some specific benefit to YOU PERSONALLY. Questions I've asked about personal benefit to you go unanswered.

 

Not just me, I saw more people doing NIM in 3.0 and now it's getting worse.

 

You personally, could run SM operations and have the experience of running an operation.

 

1. You'd get to see the environments

2. You'd get to see the combat encounters.

3. You'd get to see the cutscenes.

4. You'd get to see the bosses.

5. It also allows for not requiring a full group (one of your complaints earlier in this thread).

6. It also is not challenging (one of the other things you desire).

But they have different mechanics and it's fun to challenge.

 

But for some reason, this isn't enough. You want to run NM as well, but not for the challenge. You want it nerfed. You want to run it 5 levels over, 10 levels over, 15 levels over. Also "faceroll" was the exact word you used in an earlier thread. It's pretty clear the experience you want with NM ops.

 

Now, because you haven't actually answered my questions, I have to read between the lines. And the only thing I can think of is:

 

"You want fancy NM drops by doing easy content"

 

It's the only thing that makes sense!

 

And to be perfectly honest, I'm NOT knocking you for wanting this. If that is actually what you want, then for the love of Bog just be honest about it. At least it's a decent starting point for a discussion.

 

I made it quite clear, even when overleveled, many of mech still works, so it brought the difficulty to a reasonable level to most of the people instead of overly intensive and only enjoyable for elite raiders. This is why ppl in 3.0 were running NIM pug groups.

 

Just because it wasn't as challenging as it once was, doesn't mean it's not challenging at all when it got overleveled.

[Slowpokeking]

The importance of NiM isn't the (statted) gear; it's the achievement (and the related cosmetic gear and decos). It's fine if only a tiny fraction of people can ever obtain those, because they aren't mechanically important.

 

So it has been kept by elite raiders for years, why couldn't more people be able to get it after its era is long gone?

 

The decor is what kept quite a few people running this game.

[Crossward]

So it has been kept by elite raiders for years, why couldn't more people be able to get it after its era is long gone?

 

The decor is what kept quite a few people running this game.

 

And now we get to the crux of it. You DO want NiM cosmetics/titles/mounts, and you want to put in minimal effort to achieve them.

 

"Raiders have had their fun with them for long enough now. My turn."

 

The onus is on you to prove that this is a desirable change in direction. So far, I don't think you've been successful.

[Slowpokeking]

And now we get to the crux of it. You DO want NiM cosmetics/titles/mounts, and you want to put in minimal effort to achieve them.

 

"Raiders have had their fun with them for long enough now. My turn."

 

The onus is on you to prove that this is a desirable change in direction. So far, I don't think you've been successful.

 

I don't need any of them maybe other than Brontes' mount, pls don't try to make a straw-man on me.

 

Otherwise I can say you are the same "I've had my fun and got bored on them, but YOU NOOBS aren't gonna touch on it!"

[IanArgent]

You know, if you had said you wanted the statted gear, that's one thing. High-end statted gear is mechanically useful, to the point of requirement for the very hardest fights. I may dislike the gear treadmill game design, but I see how it works as a ramp-up mechanism.

 

But Cosmetic gear/decos/achievements? No. That's purely bragging rights; to show the world you did the very hardest content in the game. If anything, the fact that the NiM achievements were watered down while they raised the level cap but not the difficulty is a problem.

 

(Note, I will very likely NEVER get the NiM achievements and other rewards; so it's not like I'm asking to keep tht for myself).