Are ops/raids outdated?

[Slowpokeking]

Thank you.

 

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but you like the idea of an operation that used to be difficult and you had a hard time defeating it in the past when it was at level, but are later on able to defeat the operation due to having outgeared and/or outleveled it?

 

Is that correct?

 

And I hate to run the same old ones for years with such effort.

[Khevar]

And I hate to run the same old ones for years with such effort.

Fair enough.

 

But don't you think it would be more fair to the "collective group of people playing operations" to wait until their ARE actually new operations BEFORE asking for a nerf of the old ones?

[GrandLordMenace]

Fair enough.

 

But don't you think it would be more fair to the "collective group of people playing operations" to wait until their ARE actually new operations BEFORE asking for a nerf of the old ones?

 

This is the same guy complaining there were too many instakill mechanics in the 3.0 incarnations of nightmare way back when. Don't waste time arguing

[Slowpokeking]

Fair enough.

 

But don't you think it would be more fair to the "collective group of people playing operations" to wait until their ARE actually new operations BEFORE asking for a nerf of the old ones?

 

I prefer there to be options, for people to choose the level of the ops at 65 or their original ones.

 

I don't want my fun to disturb others, everybody should have fun, but I don't want my fun to be taken for others' interest, especially it didn't impress many raiders..

[Khevar]

This is the same guy complaining there were too many instakill mechanics in the 3.0 incarnations of nightmare way back when. Don't waste time arguing

Hey, it's a more interesting thread than "botters are ruining EA's profit margins"

 

[Khevar]

I prefer there to be options, for people to choose the level of the ops at 65 or their original ones.

Actually, that's an interesting idea. If you said that earlier in this thread I missed it.

 

1. Run classic ops as they were originally added to the game, or

2. Run class ops in their current level 65 incarnation.

 

If BW were a democracy (it isn't ) that's not where I would personally vote for development hours to be spent, but at the very least that solution still provides 9 relevant ops for people that like running them at 65.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Khevar

[MeNaCe-NZ]

This is a problem for now. The top gears aren't that meaningful since there is no new raid content coming out.

 

But you said gear is what matters to them doing the content? Now you say it's not meaningful? Way to contradict yourself and spoil your argument.

 

For gear and some possible decor/mount, simple.

 

Gear that isn't meaningful? Right.

 

They should ask for new ops.

 

They do, not for tactical ops.

 

These people are not running HM EV/KP for difficulty, but for the top gear.

 

That, again, according to you isn't meaningful ... I'm lost on why you think people run operations now.

 

It pleases one certain group surely.

 

Yes, the people who enjoy operations. You want to please people who don't want to do operations.

 

The tank ability of their class plus the gear.

 

Bolster sorts out gear if they take a tank role.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I pretty much agree. I think in addition to having a better reward vs. effort ratio, it opens up previous-tier NM content to a pool of players that really doesn't have a whole lot to do right now. I know for a lot of people, they were having fun pre 4.0 working through that content. Today, they simply have no chance at it.

 

While NM content is clearly only consumed by a small % of raid teams at-level, that number climbs after one level increase, and again after 2. It lengthens the content cycle for everyone except the top "1%" and that's a healthy thing for the game.

 

The attraction to most people that are one step past the SM GF / HM EV&KP level is not gear, but simply trying to get the next boss down. Right now, that group has nothing to do.

 

The problem with this concept is that NiM content at 50 isn't NiM content at all, it's godmode content.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

SM is not "too hard", just "boring to do since it's really really old and we still have to form a full group, grab enough roles and endure the waiting/drama". It might be ok years ago but it's too old now. Both the content and the way of raid is a bit too old. See the problem?

 

Most of the people are running it for gears.

 

Except making it tactical will make it even more boring ... just have a free vendor for the gear and be done with it if we were going to do it your way.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

No, my point is: "I want to run the VERY OLD ops that doesn't have strict group requirement and that much effort".

 

But it's the group content of the game ... Why shouldn't it have strict group requirements? You've got the rest of the game that doesn't.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Because their time had past, I've done them many times already. It is very boring to do them with such requirement and endure the typical pug drama again, after 3-4 years after their release.

 

And it feels VERY GOOD to be able to rock in those old ops with high level and gear with easy group, to do what you once couldn't do and get what you once couldn't get(or what you once require to endure a lot of wipes/spend a lot of effort to beat/get). Not just the drop, the feeling is nice.

 

But you just said you are bored of them due to age? What more is there for you to get that you can't get?

If you make NIM/HM so stupidly easy you can run it with no tanks then there is no "the feeling is nice" - it's the same if not worse than what you just said you are bored of due to age ...

 

Sounds like you just want it scaled down so you can get the drops from the content you're not good enough to get yourself ... get better and then you can get it now.

[Crossward]

The problem with this concept is that NiM content at 50 isn't NiM content at all, it's godmode content.

 

Nightmare 50s were a joke. In fact, that's why they removed KP/EV NiM prior to 4.0. Nightmares versions of 55 ops at 60, however, were still often a challenge even for those who were doing HMs (or hadn't fully progressed through Nightmare).

 

To list specific examples that you probably remember:

 

Dread Fortress NiM CZ and especially Brontes. Let's face it--Brontes NiM was around for a year prior to KotFE, and the people who have the wings are still largely the people who had it back when it was current. The bump to 60 helped in getting to her, but few people cleared the hurdle.

 

Dread Palace NiM, particularly Raptus and Council. I admit that Raptus was mostly due to that bug, but they never fully fixed it before KotFE anyway, so it may as well have been part of the encounter. Council was extremely difficult even with 5 levels advantage.

 

And of course there's my favorite boss and the one I really think we saw people taking advantage of: Hateful Entity. This guy was almost impossible at-level. Once you had 5 levels on him however, a solid group *could* beat him after enough practice. A lot of the dread masks you see people wearing come from 3.0+. I got mine at 55, but not before I was decked out in NiM DF/DP gear, which was still 2 tiers higher than what Hateful was scaled for!

 

Does this make Slowking's argument for tactical operations the way to go? I don't think so. I'm just saying that the level increase turned fights like Hateful and NiM DF/DP from impossible dreams for most guilds to something that, just maybe, was in reach. There was value in that, though perhaps not enough to leave it in.

[Slowpokeking]

But you just said you are bored of them due to age? What more is there for you to get that you can't get?

If you make NIM/HM so stupidly easy you can run it with no tanks then there is no "the feeling is nice" - it's the same if not worse than what you just said you are bored of due to age ...

 

Sounds like you just want it scaled down so you can get the drops from the content you're not good enough to get yourself ... get better and then you can get it now.

 

Bored of them due to you still need to run the old same thing with the same old way.

 

There is, to stomp on what you once could not even step in to beat(pug NIM groups ask for achievement requirement), or require a lot of preparation and many wipes to do, feel very good. Like EC NIM, like LI HM. I like to try LI in 3.0 simply just to stomp on the bosses that I once wiped so many times.

[Slowpokeking]

But you said gear is what matters to them doing the content? Now you say it's not meaningful? Way to contradict yourself and spoil your argument.

 

The difficulty is not meaningful to them, you tone down the difficulty would not stop them from doing it.

 

They do, not for tactical ops.

 

But there is no new ops, running the old ones don't bring them much fun.

 

 

Yes, the people who enjoy operations. You want to please people who don't want to do operations.

Many of the raiders had left, and according to bioware few people tried ToS on the 3.0 cycle. As for current people, most of them just want some easy comm/gear.

 

 

Bolster sorts out gear if they take a tank role.

 

What is it?

[Slowpokeking]

But it's the group content of the game ... Why shouldn't it have strict group requirements? You've got the rest of the game that doesn't.

 

Because it's VERY VERY OLD and its era is long gone, sure it should have been typical group content when it firstly came out, but not after 4 years and 3 xpcs. It's like saying people should still make a full group and fully prepare for MC or BWL in WotLK.

 

This is how a group content work in a MMO cycle, they came out and become the challenge-more and more people be able to step in-got toned down with new challenge came out-farmable with higher tier gears-become people's fun with new xpc and players have higher level cap.

[Slowpokeking]

Except making it tactical will make it even more boring ... just have a free vendor for the gear and be done with it if we were going to do it your way.

 

Why? It's so old, 2-3 menable would save people a lot of time and effort to avoid drama.

Doing a tactical ops easily is much more fun than wait for tank/people dc/rage quit/ waiting/disband/spend so much effort for stuff that have been beaten for so many times.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Nightmare 50s were a joke. In fact, that's why they removed KP/EV NiM prior to 4.0. Nightmares versions of 55 ops at 60, however, were still often a challenge even for those who were doing HMs (or hadn't fully progressed through Nightmare).

 

To list specific examples that you probably remember:

 

Dread Fortress NiM CZ and especially Brontes. Let's face it--Brontes NiM was around for a year prior to KotFE, and the people who have the wings are still largely the people who had it back when it was current. The bump to 60 helped in getting to her, but few people cleared the hurdle.

 

Dread Palace NiM, particularly Raptus and Council. I admit that Raptus was mostly due to that bug, but they never fully fixed it before KotFE anyway, so it may as well have been part of the encounter. Council was extremely difficult even with 5 levels advantage.

 

And of course there's my favorite boss and the one I really think we saw people taking advantage of: Hateful Entity. This guy was almost impossible at-level. Once you had 5 levels on him however, a solid group *could* beat him after enough practice. A lot of the dread masks you see people wearing come from 3.0+. I got mine at 55, but not before I was decked out in NiM DF/DP gear, which was still 2 tiers higher than what Hateful was scaled for!

 

Does this make Slowking's argument for tactical operations the way to go? I don't think so. I'm just saying that the level increase turned fights like Hateful and NiM DF/DP from impossible dreams for most guilds to something that, just maybe, was in reach. There was value in that, though perhaps not enough to leave it in.

 

Sorry I meant doing NIM 50 content at 60, 65 would be even worse ... thus the godmode comment.

 

The 5 level gap still left even the 50 content relatively difficult for NIM but once things got to 10 levels you actually started to hit near godmode in that you took no/little damage - yes mechanics could still be an issue and so they should be.

 

I still maintain it's nice to have things that are nigh on impossible to get/do in the game. I say 'nigh' - actually impossible not so good and would require tweaking.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

The difficulty is not meaningful to them, you tone down the difficulty would not stop them from doing it.

 

It would stop me doing it like it stops me doing tactical yawn fest flashpoints ... I'm sure others share the sentiment ... maybe not though.

 

But there is no new ops, running the old ones don't bring them much fun.

 

So no change required then, old ops are still old.

 

Many of the raiders had left, and according to bioware few people tried ToS on the 3.0 cycle. As for current people, most of them just want some easy comm/gear.

 

3.0 ops were just poorly designed and optimised for the raiding community as a whole ( including casuals ) that's what put a lot of people off.

 

If they want easy gear just give it away for free ... wouldn't bother me none.

 

 

What is it?

 

What is what? Bolster or tank gear?

[Slowpokeking]

Nightmare 50s were a joke. In fact, that's why they removed KP/EV NiM prior to 4.0. Nightmares versions of 55 ops at 60, however, were still often a challenge even for those who were doing HMs (or hadn't fully progressed through Nightmare).

 

To list specific examples that you probably remember:

 

Dread Fortress NiM CZ and especially Brontes. Let's face it--Brontes NiM was around for a year prior to KotFE, and the people who have the wings are still largely the people who had it back when it was current. The bump to 60 helped in getting to her, but few people cleared the hurdle.

 

Dread Palace NiM, particularly Raptus and Council. I admit that Raptus was mostly due to that bug, but they never fully fixed it before KotFE anyway, so it may as well have been part of the encounter. Council was extremely difficult even with 5 levels advantage.

 

And of course there's my favorite boss and the one I really think we saw people taking advantage of: Hateful Entity. This guy was almost impossible at-level. Once you had 5 levels on him however, a solid group *could* beat him after enough practice. A lot of the dread masks you see people wearing come from 3.0+. I got mine at 55, but not before I was decked out in NiM DF/DP gear, which was still 2 tiers higher than what Hateful was scaled for!

 

Does this make Slowking's argument for tactical operations the way to go? I don't think so. I'm just saying that the level increase turned fights like Hateful and NiM DF/DP from impossible dreams for most guilds to something that, just maybe, was in reach. There was value in that, though perhaps not enough to leave it in.

 

A play for fun guild can't even beat Brontes HM in 3.0 era without spending A LOT OF WIPES.

 

There is a problem in SWTOR since 3.0 at least, gears doesn't make such significant difference on the ops because they have toned down player's dps in 3.0 to make the 55 ops "challenging" and many of the mech are 1-shot kill. In KOTFE there is no new ops so no higher tier gear beyond the NIM ops.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Because it's VERY VERY OLD and its era is long gone, sure it should have been typical group content when it firstly came out, but not after 4 years and 3 xpcs. It's like saying people should still make a full group and fully prepare for MC or BWL in WotLK.

 

This is how a group content work in a MMO cycle, they came out and become the challenge-more and more people be able to step in-got toned down with new challenge came out-farmable with higher tier gears-become people's fun with new xpc and players have higher level cap.

 

Then don't do it - making it tactical isn't going to make it any less old or boring. Like I said, you want freebies ask for a freebie vendor. I would prefer they gave people like you that then ruin any challenge at all left in the game.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Why? It's so old, 2-3 menable would save people a lot of time and effort to avoid drama.

Doing a tactical ops easily is much more fun than wait for tank/people dc/rage quit/ waiting/disband/spend so much effort for stuff that have been beaten for so many times.

 

You get that when a group doesn't gel well or people can't perform - it's challenging because it's the games challenging content. There really isn't anything else that is challenging - if you're not up to the challenge go do something else.

[Slowpokeking]

Sorry I meant doing NIM 50 content at 60, 65 would be even worse ... thus the godmode comment.

 

The 5 level gap still left even the 50 content relatively difficult for NIM but once things got to 10 levels you actually started to hit near godmode in that you took no/little damage - yes mechanics could still be an issue and so they should be.

 

I still maintain it's nice to have things that are nigh on impossible to get/do in the game. I say 'nigh' - actually impossible not so good and would require tweaking.

Of course, because they are VERY OLD content, their era as a challenging content is long over. Why shouldn't people be able to smash it through?

 

If you want such challenging ops, ask Bioware to release new ops. Rescale 3-4 years old ops to keep the "challenge" is no different than animating dead into zombie.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Slowpokeking]

Then don't do it - making it tactical isn't going to make it any less old or boring. Like I said, you want freebies ask for a freebie vendor. I would prefer they gave people like you that then ruin any challenge at all left in the game.

 

Why should I give up the fun that once belong to me and should belong to me?

 

No, I want old ops to rest like they should be, challenge should stay with the new content. No new content doesn't mean you need to bring up old ones. I don't even care about the gears because there is no use to me. I can do the stories perfectly fine without them.

[Slowpokeking]

You get that when a group doesn't gel well or people can't perform - it's challenging because it's the games challenging content. There really isn't anything else that is challenging - if you're not up to the challenge go do something else.

 

It once was and should have been, but not anymore after 3-4 years and 2-3 xpcs, understand that. it would be pathetic if a MMO is trying to rely on such old content to keep the challenge.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Slowpokeking]

It would stop me doing it like it stops me doing tactical yawn fest flashpoints ... I'm sure others share the sentiment ... maybe not though.

 

If you want challenge, why didn't you ask for new content? Why keep "challenge" on things that have been beaten for so many times?

 

So no change required then, old ops are still old.

 

If they are not rescaled it's fine.

 

3.0 ops were just poorly designed and optimised for the raiding community as a whole ( including casuals ) that's what put a lot of people off.

 

If they want easy gear just give it away for free ... wouldn't bother me none.

 

The 2.0 isn't much better, few people were able to do many of the NIM modes, even HM is kept away from many PFF guilds.

 

Why would I want these gears if they are no use to me? There is no new ops to challenge. The story is easy to do with the 190 gears.

 

 

What is what? Bolster or tank gear?

Bolster.