Are ops/raids outdated?

[Crossward]

But the point is people are running harder content to, I assume, get gear for harder content still or are people doing content they don't like ( challenging content if slowpokes concept is to believe ) just to get gear they have no use for simply because it's their? I don't buy it.

 

I'll field this one too, though I don't speak for everyone.

 

Many casual gamers want to do the hardest content they can without fear of failing, for the most reward possible. See my above comment. That's why they do GF raids over other SM raids, and why they do KP/EV HM. I know that doesn't immediately answer your question, but keep it in mind for my next comment.

 

Once they've found their comfort zone, they wish to optimize their performance in that comfort zone. That is typically accomplished through collecting gear. In a sense, this means that yes, they're collecting gear they have no use for. I know it's strange, but consider the case of progression raiders, like me (and maybe you?). Progression raiders clear NiM/HM content in gear from the previous tier. Using DF/DP as the example, I cleared DF/DP HM in 168 gear. I continued to raid DF/DP even after I cleared it because the 180 gear drops made my runs easier. Easier runs made me feel good about my performance, and helped acquire gear for alts.

 

My old guild used to sell NiM carries to people who would never leave group finder or SM ops. Strangely, we hardly ever sold a Wings or Rancor--we usually sold the gear sets. This was so the buyer could top the meters in the group finder. One of my casual friends buys 220 gear for millions on the GTN. She's never been in an op--she just wants to do heroics slightly faster.

 

It's hard to comprehend sometimes because it seems so alien, but when you boil it down it's really the same gear reinforcement feedback loop that high end raiders experience, just with a lower skill ceiling.

 

TLDR: They aren't running content they don't like (they aren't running ToS/DF/Rav/SnV Hard Mode). They're running the most advanced they can easily do in order to maximize rewards so they can have an easier time doing the easiest raid content. the main difference between them and progression raiders is that they don't have any desire to step out of their comfort zone and try the content that requires advanced tactics and risks failure.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I'll field this one too, though I don't speak for everyone.

 

Many casual gamers want to do the hardest content they can without fear of failing, for the most reward possible. See my above comment. That's why they do GF raids over other SM raids, and why they do KP/EV HM. I know that doesn't immediately answer your question, but keep it in mind for my next comment.

 

Once they've found their comfort zone, they wish to optimize their performance in that comfort zone. That is typically accomplished through collecting gear. In a sense, this means that yes, they're collecting gear they have no use for. I know it's strange, but consider the case of progression raiders, like me (and maybe you?). Progression raiders clear NiM/HM content in gear from the previous tier. Using DF/DP as the example, I cleared DF/DP HM in 168 gear. I continued to raid DF/DP even after I cleared it because the 180 gear drops made my runs easier. Easier runs made me feel good about my performance, and helped acquire gear for alts.

 

My old guild used to sell NiM carries to people who would never leave group finder or SM ops. Strangely, we hardly ever sold a Wings or Rancor--we usually sold the gear sets. This was so the buyer could top the meters in the group finder. One of my casual friends buys 220 gear for millions on the GTN. She's never been in an op--she just wants to do heroics slightly faster.

 

It's hard to comprehend sometimes because it seems so alien, but when you boil it down it's really the same gear reinforcement feedback loop that high end raiders experience, just with a lower skill ceiling.

 

TLDR: They aren't running content they don't like (they aren't running ToS/DF/Rav/SnV Hard Mode). They're running the most advanced they can easily do in order to maximize rewards so they can have an easier time doing the easiest raid content. the main difference between them and progression raiders is that they don't have any desire to step out of their comfort zone and try the content that requires advanced tactics and risks failure.

 

Yup that all makes sense but I feel taking that concept and then applying it to say "oh well SM is still too hard let's make a tactical mode and make it even easier" to then make getting gear easier still, as the OP is seemingly implying above, won't really work in a beneficial manner for the game.

 

I believe it's tuned nicely now - you can progress as much as you want, you can do MANY other activities if operations seem too hard ... you remove the difficulty of ops you remove at lease players like myself from wanting to do that content because the concept of tactical ops just sounds mundanely boring ( especially since it would still be the same ops we have now ).

 

But hey if it were actually that no one were really running ops at all now and they wanted to get all the players left who aren't doing ops into doing them then by all means make it tactical - there would be no one to care if no one was doing them the current way. However that's not the case, many people are doing the content as it is and just want something new just as solo/story players are doing what they enjoy as it currently is ( which i personally am not enjoying as much ).

[robertthebard]

I've given this some thought, while reading through the last few replies, and have decided that I've changed my mind. They should totally reduce the old stuff back to it's previous levels. However, in doing so, they should cap the gear rewards to be level appropriate. So if the Op is 45, that's the highest level gear you can get.

 

They should then go back to SM, HM and NiM. SM drops no deco/mounts/gear. HM drops blue gear and decos. NiM can drop everthing HM can, plus mounts, if they were in the original Op. Additional addendum, Level sync should be turned off for these ops, and no bolster for SM. If you're 5 levels above the Op, no special drops at all.

 

Yes, I know, this defeats the OP's plan of getting all these rewards for no effort, but, you get what you play for. I earned my NiM trophies the hard way, I ran the Ops on NiM at or near level. Which is how I got my set pieces, and my gear.

[IanArgent]

I've given this some thought, while reading through the last few replies, and have decided that I've changed my mind. They should totally reduce the old stuff back to it's previous levels. However, in doing so, they should cap the gear rewards to be level appropriate. So if the Op is 45, that's the highest level gear you can get.

 

They should then go back to SM, HM and NiM. SM drops no deco/mounts/gear. HM drops blue gear and decos. NiM can drop everthing HM can, plus mounts, if they were in the original Op. Additional addendum, Level sync should be turned off for these ops, and no bolster for SM. If you're 5 levels above the Op, no special drops at all.

 

Yes, I know, this defeats the OP's plan of getting all these rewards for no effort, but, you get what you play for. I earned my NiM trophies the hard way, I ran the Ops on NiM at or near level. Which is how I got my set pieces, and my gear.

 

Entirely against the New Design Way - where all your rewards are synced to your personal level, because the difficulty is synced (more or less). The problem is that for open world content, stat cap "works," but Bolster in group content, doesn't. They should have level synced FPs instead of bolstering them, but they thought they could do a "cheap" Tactical conversion and continue to use the KDY model. Hah.

[Slowpokeking]

Oh so the gear and not the content? What then are they using the gear for if they don't want to do harder content?

Why not just go another step and just give the gear away all for comms gained from solo content ... who even needs challenging group content.

This is a problem for now. The top gears aren't that meaningful since there is no new raid content coming out.

 

 

So if they don't care about challenge why are they raiding at all? Oh right, the gear that they want but don't want to use for anything because they don't want challenge thus won't be doing HM/NiM.

For gear and some possible decor/mount, simple.

 

Ask them ( there were a few posting in this thread i believe ) because clearly there are still people doing it, your change would ruin it for them.

They should ask for new ops.

 

How can they be long gone is you just said people were running HM EV/KP?

These people are not running HM EV/KP for difficulty, but for the top gear.

 

 

Well this setup is the best setup imo but it does need new operations to back it up. Making things tactical won't make it better, it will make it worse.

It pleases one certain group surely.

 

 

That just makes no sense. They can tank SM but they don't have the ability to tank ( so they can tank but they can't tank heh ).

The tank ability of their class plus the gear.

[gabigool]

I've given this some thought, while reading through the last few replies, and have decided that I've changed my mind. They should totally reduce the old stuff back to it's previous levels. However, in doing so, they should cap the gear rewards to be level appropriate. So if the Op is 45, that's the highest level gear you can get.

 

They should then go back to SM, HM and NiM. SM drops no deco/mounts/gear. HM drops blue gear and decos. NiM can drop everthing HM can, plus mounts, if they were in the original Op. Additional addendum, Level sync should be turned off for these ops, and no bolster for SM. If you're 5 levels above the Op, no special drops at all.

 

Yes, I know, this defeats the OP's plan of getting all these rewards for no effort, but, you get what you play for. I earned my NiM trophies the hard way, I ran the Ops on NiM at or near level. Which is how I got my set pieces, and my gear.

 

I pretty much agree. I think in addition to having a better reward vs. effort ratio, it opens up previous-tier NM content to a pool of players that really doesn't have a whole lot to do right now. I know for a lot of people, they were having fun pre 4.0 working through that content. Today, they simply have no chance at it.

 

While NM content is clearly only consumed by a small % of raid teams at-level, that number climbs after one level increase, and again after 2. It lengthens the content cycle for everyone except the top "1%" and that's a healthy thing for the game.

 

The attraction to most people that are one step past the SM GF / HM EV&KP level is not gear, but simply trying to get the next boss down. Right now, that group has nothing to do.

[Slowpokeking]

I've given this some thought, while reading through the last few replies, and have decided that I've changed my mind. They should totally reduce the old stuff back to it's previous levels. However, in doing so, they should cap the gear rewards to be level appropriate. So if the Op is 45, that's the highest level gear you can get.

 

They should then go back to SM, HM and NiM. SM drops no deco/mounts/gear. HM drops blue gear and decos. NiM can drop everthing HM can, plus mounts, if they were in the original Op. Additional addendum, Level sync should be turned off for these ops, and no bolster for SM. If you're 5 levels above the Op, no special drops at all.

 

Yes, I know, this defeats the OP's plan of getting all these rewards for no effort, but, you get what you play for. I earned my NiM trophies the hard way, I ran the Ops on NiM at or near level. Which is how I got my set pieces, and my gear.

That would be awesome!

 

I really don't care about the gears since I don't have any new ops to try it, just the collection decor/mount might raise some interest.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Slowpokeking]

Yup that all makes sense but I feel taking that concept and then applying it to say "oh well SM is still too hard let's make a tactical mode and make it even easier" to then make getting gear easier still, as the OP is seemingly implying above, won't really work in a beneficial manner for the game.

 

I believe it's tuned nicely now - you can progress as much as you want, you can do MANY other activities if operations seem too hard ... you remove the difficulty of ops you remove at lease players like myself from wanting to do that content because the concept of tactical ops just sounds mundanely boring ( especially since it would still be the same ops we have now ).

 

But hey if it were actually that no one were really running ops at all now and they wanted to get all the players left who aren't doing ops into doing them then by all means make it tactical - there would be no one to care if no one was doing them the current way. However that's not the case, many people are doing the content as it is and just want something new just as solo/story players are doing what they enjoy as it currently is ( which i personally am not enjoying as much ).

SM is not "too hard", just "boring to do since it's really really old and we still have to form a full group, grab enough roles and endure the waiting/drama". It might be ok years ago but it's too old now. Both the content and the way of raid is a bit too old. See the problem?

 

Most of the people are running it for gears.

[Tsillah]

I see that some people still seem to think that they know what "most people" do or want.

 

It's gotten pretty sad by now but at least we can thank you for keeping the forum alive a bit, so I'll chime in again to help out.

 

Let's see, what can I do here.....ah yes.

 

I think the current situation of operations is actually just fine. There are 9 operations in the game. That's 8 more than for example GW2. We should be thankful for so much endgame content.

 

Also this game has like 20 or 30 flashpoints. How many MMOs have so many dungeons? It's truly a massive amount that only WoW can beat surely.

 

So at this stage we have a relatively small part that can repeat these ops to their heart's content and new players have a massive amount of ops to choose from. I do love this comment where someone said what can people do after EV/KP HM...well guess what...there are 7 more ops you can do. That's what.

 

And most people don't play ops, so it really doesn't matter that we don't have new ops in the game. Sure, there are a few people here that keep slowpoking their way around the forum repeating their same non-arguments more often than they played any ops in the game, but beyond that, the player base is totally happy with this situation.

 

We have story, alliances, star forges and the upcoming new warzones and the eternal championship. All this new content and also QoL updates for guilds and strongholds coming.

 

Honestly, your complaints make no sense. You must be some of these left over oldies who can't adapt to the current times and can't see the blatantly obvious.

 

So there you are. Hope that helps keep the conversation alive. Sure, I said it all with a touch of sarcasm but I do so to make a point and not to just make it up.

[Khevar]

SM is not "too hard", just "boring to do since it's really really old and we still have to form a full group, grab enough roles and endure the waiting/drama". It might be ok years ago but it's too old now. Both the content and the way of raid is a bit too old. See the problem?

How is nerfing it to faceroll-easy make it LESS boring?

 

It's still just as old is it was before.

[Slowpokeking]

How is nerfing it to faceroll-easy make it LESS boring?

 

It's still just as old is it was before.

 

So we don't have to spend so much time to grab tanks or form a full group or waste much such effort on such old content.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Khevar]

So we don't have to spend so much time to grab tanks or form a full group or waste much such effort on such old content.

Doesn't make the old ops any less old.

 

And let's be honest, you can form a group without tanks and run 4-man tactical flashpoints all day long. There's plenty of stuff for your to do. What you're asking for is already in the game.

 

What's wrong with running that content?

Edited March 16, 2016 by Khevar

[Slowpokeking]

Doesn't make the old ops any less old.

 

And let's be honest, you can form a group without tanks and run 4-man tactical flashpoints all day long. There's plenty of stuff for your to do. What you're asking for is already in the game.

 

What's wrong with running that content?

 

Yeah but at least they are at their place rather than being animated as zombie. No new ops is not a reason to animate old ones up.

[Khevar]

Yeah but at least they are at their place rather than being animated as zombie. No new ops is not a reason to animate old ones up.

You didn't answer my question.

 

You want small group content that doesn't require tanks.

You have that right now with tactical flashpoints.

 

What's wrong with running that content?

Edited March 16, 2016 by Khevar

[IanArgent]

You didn't answer my question.

 

You want small group content that doesn't require tanks.

You have that right now with tactical flashpoints.

 

What's wrong with running that content?

 

OP wants the Op Lewt?

 

(I want to experience the ops story in-person, as it were, but I don't feel the need to demand they drop everything and make all ops solo-friendly; I just accept that some things won't be)

[Slowpokeking]

You didn't answer my question.

 

You want small group content that doesn't require tanks.

You have that right now with tactical flashpoints.

 

What's wrong with running that content?

 

Because such OLD ops shouldn't require such strict requirement, isn't it obvious? Why should I only be able to run those tacticals with easy group up?

[Khevar]

Because such OLD ops shouldn't require such strict requirement, isn't it obvious? Why should I only be able to run those tacticals with easy group up?

You're still dodging my question.

 

The problem you've presented is "I want to run small group content that doesn't require tanks", which has a potential solution of "run tactical flashpoints"

 

That's what you're asking for, right? You want ops to be reduced to small group content and not require tanks. You have that right now with tactical flashpoints. But there is some reason why that's not a solution for you.

 

Please, I would like you to tell me what that reason is.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Khevar

[Slowpokeking]

You're still dodging my question.

 

The problem you've presented is "I want to run small group content that doesn't require tanks", which has a potential solution of "run tactical flashpoints"

 

That's what you're asking for, right? You want ops to be reduced to small group content and not require tanks. You have that right now with tactical flashpoints. But there is some reason why that's not a solution for you.

 

Please, I would like you to tell me what that reason is.

No, my point is: "I want to run the VERY OLD ops that doesn't have strict group requirement and that much effort".

Edited March 16, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Lodinn]

I think the current situation of operations is actually just fine. There are 9 operations in the game. That's 8 more than for example GW2. We should be thankful for so much endgame content.

 

Also this game has like 20 or 30 flashpoints. How many MMOs have so many dungeons? It's truly a massive amount that only WoW can beat surely.

Except I'm moving to FFXIV right now. It has about 50 "flashpoints", and if you look it up and see "HM" label next to some, let it not confuse you. HM and SM are totally different there, another bosses, another storyline. Some things SWTOR has now were borrowed from there, vice versa maybe too *shrug*. I don't really want to advertise it in here, but in short - with all the flaws as well devs there put much more effort in the game. Guess they have more resources, too, but it doesn't matter as much for me as a buyer.

 

As for the lengthy discussion about challenge and why people do/do not raids, it's quite simple. Comment about comfort zone was pretty much to the point, I can only add there's plentiful of returning players who are still interested in doing "zombie ops", as OP calls them. Complaints about tanks make no sense at all, as it was pointed out if people would be up for tanking in general, there wouldn't be such an issue, in the first place. Not at the scale we have now.

I used to spend around 80% of time tanking, I do enjoy this stuff. But even if we're sitting there for 10 minutes already waiting for the tank to appear I won't offer the group lead to relog so he could search for dps instead. After half an hour - maybe. But dpsing zombie ops is the only remotely fun option, tanking/healing is pretty meh. That's really simple, actually. When you dps, you feel like you're killing stuff and there's a bit of RP aspect to it. Yes, you work with group and all that but you can see how your hits hurt the boss. Even if you're hitting it all on your own.

When you tank, you do those 2 fairly simple mechanics you have to and then it feels like you wait ages for these slackers who would probably parse 1.5k to kill the boss. Same for healing - game doesn't stress you nearly enough, you don't feel like your offdps is actually important (mainly because you have 3-4 dps skills and it doesn't feel like a rotation at all), so could as well just /sleep in front of the boss.

Making ops tacticals has another caveat, all the opses will instantly turn into glorified solo flashpoints with Jesus Droid. It'll just lose a lot in replayability, a lot of people hate KDY for a good reason.

 

Oh, and OP actually has a point. Although that seems an unpopular opinion, I'd say 3.x state was healthier - some raiders had ToS/Ravs to progress, some had NiMs to progress/farm vanity stuff, some ran lvl 55 HMs cause they were precisely in comfort zone - you have mechanics so you feel your contribution is impactful but those mechanics don't punish you too hard so there's a little risk of failure. DF/DP HM were a great raiding option in 3.0 for casual pugs, I know a lot of people who enjoyed it probably the most.

Only thing I missed in 3.x was something like make a proper version of Crystal of Nightmare Fury craftable so that raid lead uses it and - poof! - lvl 55 op upscales to the Nightmare Power state so you could experience how it was back in 2.something. Limited time offers are harmful if there's no decent influx of new content IMO.

[Slowpokeking]

As for the lengthy discussion about challenge and why people do/do not raids, it's quite simple. Comment about comfort zone was pretty much to the point, I can only add there's plentiful of returning players who are still interested in doing "zombie ops", as OP calls them. Complaints about tanks make no sense at all, as it was pointed out if people would be up for tanking in general, there wouldn't be such an issue, in the first place. Not at the scale we have now.

I used to spend around 80% of time tanking, I do enjoy this stuff. But even if we're sitting there for 10 minutes already waiting for the tank to appear I won't offer the group lead to relog so he could search for dps instead. After half an hour - maybe. But dpsing zombie ops is the only remotely fun option, tanking/healing is pretty meh. That's really simple, actually. When you dps, you feel like you're killing stuff and there's a bit of RP aspect to it. Yes, you work with group and all that but you can see how your hits hurt the boss. Even if you're hitting it all on your own.

When you tank, you do those 2 fairly simple mechanics you have to and then it feels like you wait ages for these slackers who would probably parse 1.5k to kill the boss. Same for healing - game doesn't stress you nearly enough, you don't feel like your offdps is actually important (mainly because you have 3-4 dps skills and it doesn't feel like a rotation at all), so could as well just /sleep in front of the boss.

IMO.

But most of them only do the SM and EV/KP HM for gears, which means the current problem has serious problem and if you make it easier they won't complain.

 

Even on Harbinger, it's not that easy to pick tanks sometimes for pugs, especially some ops require 2 of them.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Khevar]

No, my point is: "I want to run the VERY OLD ops that doesn't have strict group requirement and that much effort".

Okay, so let's say the old operations were made into 4-man content that didn't require tanks.

 

That's basically turning them into tactical flashpoints!

 

What would you get out of an operation turned into a tactical flashpoint that you WOULDN'T get out of the tactical flashpoints we already have?

Edited March 16, 2016 by Khevar

[Slowpokeking]

Okay, so let's say the old operations were made into 4-man content that didn't require tanks.

 

That's basically turning them into tactical flashpoints!

 

What would you get out of an operation turned into a tactical flashpoint that you WOULDN'T get out of the tactical flashpoints we already have?

 

No, I prefer there to be freedom, you can run them with a full 8men/16men group but also 3-4 men able for some of the really old ones. This is how it should have been.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Khevar]

No, I prefer there to be freedom, you can run them with a full 8men/16men group but also 3-4 men able for some of the really old ones. This is how it should have been.

Either you're not understanding the question that I'm asking, or you don't want to answer it.

 

Here's my question again, for reference:

What would you get out of an operation turned into a tactical flashpoint that you WOULDN'T get out of the tactical flashpoints we already have?

 

Here are some examples of some possible answers (note: I'm not trying to put words in your mouth -- these aren't your answers, just examples of ways that question could be answered):

 

1. I'm bored with the tactical flashpoints and want to do something else.

2. Tactical flashpoints have bad drops and I want the better drops that operations provide.

3. I haven't seen the cutscenes of the operations and want to be able to do see them without a full group.

 

Do you see what I'm searching for here? Your proposed solution (nerf operations so they don't require a full group and don't require tanks) is a solution to some unspecified problem that you personally have. Some problem that "run tactical flashpoints" doesn't solve.

 

So -- if you please, would you answer my question:

 

What would you get out of an operation turned into a tactical flashpoint that you WOULDN'T get out of the tactical flashpoints we already have?

Edited March 16, 2016 by Khevar

[Slowpokeking]

Either you're not understanding the question that I'm asking, or you don't want to answer it.

 

Here's my question again, for reference:

What would you get out of an operation turned into a tactical flashpoint that you WOULDN'T get out of the tactical flashpoints we already have?

 

Here are some examples of some possible answers (note: I'm not trying to put words in your mouth -- these aren't your answers, just examples of ways that question could be answered):

 

1. I'm bored with the tactical flashpoints and want to do something else.

2. Tactical flashpoints have bad drops and I want the better drops that operations provide.

3. I haven't seen the cutscenes of the operations and want to be able to do see them without a full group.

 

Do you see what I'm searching for here? Your proposed solution (nerf operations so they don't require a full group and don't require tanks) is a solution to some unspecified problem that you personally have. Some problem that "run tactical flashpoints" doesn't solve.

 

So -- if you please, would you answer my question:

 

What would you get out of an operation turned into a tactical flashpoint that you WOULDN'T get out of the tactical flashpoints we already have?

Because their time had past, I've done them many times already. It is very boring to do them with such requirement and endure the typical pug drama again, after 3-4 years after their release.

 

And it feels VERY GOOD to be able to rock in those old ops with high level and gear with easy group, to do what you once couldn't do and get what you once couldn't get(or what you once require to endure a lot of wipes/spend a lot of effort to beat/get). Not just the drop, the feeling is nice.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Khevar]

And it feels VERY GOOD to be able to rock in those old ops with high level and gear with easy group, to do what you once couldn't do and get what you once couldn't get. Not just the drop, the feeling is nice.

Thank you.

 

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but you like the idea of an operation that used to be difficult and you had a hard time defeating it in the past when it was at level, but are later on able to defeat the operation due to having outgeared and/or outleveled it?

 

Is that correct?