Gut Vs. Energy Blast (math)

[BrianBairstow]

Gut Vs. Energy Blast

 

People have been discussing this issue, but I haven't seen a lot of math. Some people say that the ammo gain from Energy Blast is useless since they don't have problems with ammo, but unless you already never have to use hammer shot you can make use of more ammo. The correct way to gauge the power of Energy Blast is to look at the damage gained from replacing hammer shots with better abilities. To gauge the power of Gut look at the damage gained from replacing Ion Pulses with Guts. I assume in both cases that Ion Pulse is your go-to ability for dumping ammo after using all your cooldown abilities, and thus is the skill that is dropped or added to rotations depending on the ammo situation.

 

That said, it's so many words without doing the math. I pulled damage values from Torhead. (Are these even accurate? Hammer shot looks surprisingly high...)

 

Hammer Shot

670-817 weapon damage -> 744 damage average

 

Ion Pulse

558-622 elemental damage -> 590 damage average

 

Energy Blast

702-813 elemental damage -> 758 damage average

 

Gut

595-706 kinetic damage -> 651 damage average

784 internal damage

 

Energy Blast:

 

In a 30 second period, allows you to replace two Hammer Shots with Energy Blasts, and one Hammer Shot with Ion Pulse.

Gain 2106 elemental damage, lose 2232 weapon damage.

 

Gut:

 

In a 30 second period, allows you to replace two Ion Pulses with Guts.

Gain 1302 kinetic damage, 1568 internal damage, lose 1180 elemental damage.

 

 

 

If weapon/kinetic damage is reduced by 20% compared to elemental/internal damage, then:

Energy Blast - Gain 320 damage in 30 seconds relative to base case.

Gut - Gain 1430 damage in 30 seconds relative to base case.

 

If weapon/kinetic damage is reduced by 50% compared to elemental/internal damage, then:

Energy Blast - Gain 990 damage in 30 seconds relative to base case.

Gut - Gain 1039 damage in 30 seconds relative to base case.

 

---

 

The previous analysis is based on Torhead numbers, and no talents. If we assume a shield spec along the lines of this (with the final point going into either Energy Blast or Gut), then Ion Pulse gains 12% damage (going to 661 average) and some crit, Gut gains 6% damage (going to 690/831 damage), and Energy Blast gains 6% damage (going to 803 average) and some crit.

 

Now Energy Blast gains you 2267 elemental damage for 2232 weapon damage, and Gut gains you 1380 kinetic damage and 1662 internal damage for 1322 elemental damage.

 

If weapon/kinetic damage is reduced by 20% compared to elemental/internal damage, then:

Energy Blast - Gain 481 damage in 30 seconds relative to base case.

Gut - Gain 1444 damage in 30 seconds relative to base case.

 

If weapon/kinetic damage is reduced by 50% compared to elemental/internal damage, then:

Energy Blast - Gain 1151 damage in 30 seconds relative to base case.

Gut - Gain 1030 damage in 30 seconds relative to base case.

 

---

 

TLDR: If the numbers on Torhead are correct, Gut is looking pretty good. The Torhead Hammer Shot numbers don't seem to jive with what I see on the tooltip, but I'm not 50 yet so I can't really say. Feel free to point out errors in math or reasoning.

 

---

 

EDIT: Therael provided some damage values for a level 50 with an epic weapon. Calculations follow.

 

Ion Pulse: 581 - 646 E dmg +6% crit (631.9 av. dmg / 315.9 dmg per ammo)*

 

Hammer Shot: 481 - 620 K dmg (550 av. dmg , 0 cost)**

 

Energy Blast: 608 - 664 E dmg +6% crit (655 av. dmg +1 ammo)*

 

This is with the lvl 50 epic barrel from Ilum. I didn't factor in my base crit chance (@ 14%) but did include any bonus crit from talents. This is with a 31/7/3 build

*Bonus crit / surge included in averages

**Numbers before armor mitigation

 

Don't know if the numbers are accurate without dropping the points into it (I'll respec later, I've been wanting to try gut for a while now) the tool tip reads:

 

Gut: 462 - 494 K dmg plus 576 internal over 15 seconds (478 av. K dmg (plus the unmitigated dot) / 527 dmg per ammo with the full dot)

 

That's without the 6% bonus from FO.

 

Energy Blast:

In a 30 second period, allows you to replace two Hammer Shots with Energy Blasts, and one Hammer Shot with Ion Pulse.

Gain 1942 elemental damage, lose 1650 weapon damage.

 

Gut:

 

In a 30 second period, allows you to replace two Ion Pulses with Guts.

Gain 1014 kinetic damage, 1221 internal damage, lose 1264 elemental damage.

 

-->

 

If weapon/kinetic damage is reduced by 20% compared to elemental/internal damage, then:

Energy Blast - Gain 622 damage in 30 seconds relative to base case.

Gut - Gain 768 damage in 30 seconds relative to base case.

 

If weapon/kinetic damage is reduced by 50% compared to elemental/internal damage, then:

Energy Blast - Gain 1117 damage in 30 seconds relative to base case.

Gut - Gain 464 damage in 30 seconds relative to base case.

 

According to these numbers, the crossover point is at 25.5% damage reduction from armor. This is precisely the value experienced by Lilrys for a level 41 strong mob when at level 40. So this suggests Energy Blast ranges from worse to better depending on Target armor.

 

A few other considerations: If you can do something more useful than Ion Pulses with your ammo (eg Explosive Surge vs multiple enemies) then Energy Blast gains value. If you have high crit/surge, Energy Blast gains value. The Gut dot gains value for High-Impact Bolt and in pvp (interrupting captures and resting). Gut needs time to tick, while the +ammo from Energy Blast only increases your damage if the fight is long enough that you can burn through your ammo.

 

New TLDR: Energy Blast appears to give the same damage increase as Gut on same-level Strong mobs. It should be better against higher-armored mobs and worse against lower-armored mobs.

Edited December 29, 2011 by BrianBairstow

[Mantang]

I'm still going back and forth on this one but I did read yesterday pointing out that the point of having energy blast is not so much for its own purposes so much as it contributes to the maintenance of keeping your ammo high enough to fall into the less than optimal cell recharge rate range (8+).

[gloryhunterprime]

I don't know about you but I never have issues with maintaining my Ammo at or above the maximal regen point with my current rotation.

[LordXalas]

ill take gut. i only use ion pulse to refresh the debuff so thats hardly my ammo dump. Energy blast says instant but its anything but since the animation makes him kneel to use it. ill stick with gut since i dont have ammo problems.

[Trevalon]

Good post and goes to show that overall Gut is probably the better bet as my numbers seem to be about the same.

 

The other problem with Energy Blast is that it is not actually an instant cast skill and has a long induction time that other skills don't have - which means that it is even less efficient than pure number crunching can show...

 

Gut > Energy Blast...

 

Lastly, That looks about right on Hammer at lvl 50 with some mediocre weapons it would go up with even better weapons.

 

I honestly, use Hammer Shot more than I use Energy Blast for gaining Ammo back mostly because of the long Induction time that Energy Blast has.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Trevalon

[Lilrys]

Did a few tests on my level 40 since I don't really trust torhead numbers

 

Level 40 Vangaurd hitting a level 41 strong mob (Armsmaster on belsavis)

full defensive pvp gear except implants/ear

rating 98 blaster (38 purple barrel)

 

Hammershot

• tooltip 330-419
  
• recorded 240-318
  

Energy Blast

• tooltip 478-536
  
• recorded 478-533
  

Ion pulse

• tooltip 410-459
  
• recorded 442-485
  

Gut

• tooltip 338-369kin + 426internal
  
• havn't really got the respec funds
  

 

Also it's worth noteing that while the animation for energy blast is slow, the effect is infact instant. When used as a killshot, the mob will stop doing anything the secound you press EB and patiently wait for the animation to kill it.

 

(12sec video showing it)

 

(ps. I'm a EB person. Not because I really like the skill, but because there's no way i'm giving up 4% shield or 8% damage for my precious stockstrike )

[Waron]

Torhead used to show their formulas in beta, now it's been removed. And only flat damage numbers are shown. Then again the torhead numbers are all working off the same "base character" afaik so the numbers should compare well.

 

Note: Damage and healing values are based off a level 50 character in green gear. Torhead staffers are still adjusting and adding effects to the formulas, so bear with us as we continue to improve these numbers for launch.

 

About the slow animation of Energy Blast, it seems to work the same way as Storm, you often see your target freeze in place and not move until the storm animation is finished and you "hit" him.

 

It is an instant ability, it just feels very 1990s to have that kind of animation on an instant ability. Especially on a class like vanguards that go for mobility.

[LordXalas]

 

(ps. I'm a EB person. Not because I really like the skill, but because there's no way i'm giving up 4% shield or 8% damage for my precious stockstrike )

 

why not use this spec?

 

you get both improved shielding/improved stockstrike and gut. Also you HIB will hit harder.

[BrianBairstow]

Thanks a bunch for the numbers Lilrys. Like me your Hammershot tooltip shows lower damage than the Ion Pulse tooltip, so I wonder if that changes at 50 (any 50s out there want to supply their tooltips?).

 

Using your numbers (level 40, vs strong mob, defensive gear):

 

Hammershot tooltip avg: 375

Hammershot actual avg: 279

-> 25% damage reduction on weapon and kinetic damage

 

Energy Blast actual avg: 506

 

Ion Pulse actual avg: 464

 

Gut estimated avg: (338+369)/2 * .75 + 426 = 691

 

Energy Blast spec:

 

In a 30 second period, allows you to replace two Hammer Shots with Energy Blasts, and one Hammer Shot with Ion Pulse.

Gain 639 damage.

 

Gut spec:

 

In a 30 second period, allows you to replace two Ion Pulses with Guts.

Gain 454 damage.

 

 

So at level 40 in these conditions Energy Blast appears to be superior, interesting. The key variables here are Hammershot damage and target armor. I don't suppose any level 50s or shield specs with Gut want to run some tests?

[Lilrys]

why not use this spec?

 

you get both improved shielding/improved stockstrike and gut. Also you HIB will hit harder.

 

Well that spec is still missing my 8% stockstrike damage from assualt. I'm also not convinced that 1 gut is better then 2 Ion pulse which is essentially the trade off. EB also gives slightly more versatility.

 

My planned spec is something like this http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801GMrrdorogzZMcbZb.1

 

Granted this may change when I hit 50 and discover that just because Ion puls deals more damage then hammershot from 1-41 dosn't mean it still does it at 50

 

 

(without a combatlog thats pretty much the best I can do, since playing 1 handed and scribling down numbers with the other gets old real fast )

[LordXalas]

Well that spec is still missing my 8% stockstrike damage from assualt. I'm also not convinced that 1 gut is better then 2 Ion pulse which is essentially the trade off. EB also gives slightly more versatility.

 

My planned spec is something like this http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801GMrrdorogzZMcbZb.1

 

Granted this may change when I hit 50 and discover that just because Ion puls deals more damage then hammershot from 1-41 dosn't mean it still does it at 50

 

 

(without a combatlog thats pretty much the best I can do, since playing 1 handed and scribling down numbers with the other gets old real fast )

 

well i only use ion pulse for the debuff so gut fits perfectly for me. i guess that spec does more for you since you use ion pulse more often then i do.

[BrianBairstow]

LordXalas, if you had a bunch of extra ammo going to waste, what would you spend it on (eg, if you didn't have gut what would you do with that 2 ammo + GCD)? My analysis assumes Ion Pulse is the highest single target damage/ammo spammable ability, so I'm curious if that is a bad assumption.

[LordXalas]

LordXalas, if you had a bunch of extra ammo going to waste, what would you spend it on (eg, if you didn't have gut what would you do with that 2 ammo + GCD)? My analysis assumes Ion Pulse is the highest single target damage/ammo spammable ability, so I'm curious if that is a bad assumption.

 

well first i use stockstrike, hammershot, ion pulse, HIB, stockstrike, hammer shot again. wait untill ion buff finished then ion pulse. more hammer shots and stockstrike. another HIB. i also use smokes gernade in the beginning. Just pay attention to the regen rate of your ammo. i dont let it drop 2 arrows. when it does i just hammer shot untill it regens and my talents make it regen faster. If i ever do run out of ammo i use fast reload which is not very often. I never loose aggro also.

[Therael]

Thanks a bunch for the numbers Lilrys. Like me your Hammershot tooltip shows lower damage than the Ion Pulse tooltip, so I wonder if that changes at 50 (any 50s out there want to supply their tooltips?).

 

Don't mind at all:

 

Ion Pulse: 581 - 646 E dmg +6% crit (631.9 av. dmg / 315.9 dmg per ammo)*

 

Hammer Shot: 481 - 620 K dmg (550 av. dmg , 0 cost)**

 

Energy Blast: 608 - 664 E dmg +6% crit (655 av. dmg +1 ammo)*

 

High Impact Bolt: 1106 - 1294 K dmg 60% Arpen (1200 av. damage / 600 dmg per ammo)**

 

Explosive Surge: 373 - 436 E dmg +36% crit +30% surge (521 av. dmg / 173.6, 347, 521, 694, 868 dmg per ammo for 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 targets)*

 

Explosive Round: 696 - 705 K dmg +94 - 100 splash (700.5 av. dmg / 233.5, 265, 298, 330.5 dmg per ammo for 1, 2, 3, 4 targets)**

 

Stock Strike: 1027 - 1065 K dmg +30% crit +30% surge (1297 av. dmg / 648.5 dmg per ammo)* **

 

This is with the lvl 50 epic barrel from Ilum. I didn't factor in my base crit chance (@ 14%) but did include any bonus crit from talents. This is with a 31/7/3 build

*Bonus crit / surge included in averages

**Numbers before armor mitigation

[BrianBairstow]

Thanks for the additional data Therael! It looks like Hammershot does not overtake Ion Pulse in the tooltip, even at level 50 with an epic barrel. Thanks for the damage/ammo comparisons also, they match my understanding that Ion Pulse gives the best single-target spammable damage/ammo.

 

Energy Blast:

 

In a 30 second period, allows you to replace two Hammer Shots with Energy Blasts, and one Hammer Shot with Ion Pulse.

Gain 1942 elemental damage, lose 1650 weapon damage.

 

Gut (still using Torhead numbers):

 

In a 30 second period, allows you to replace two Ion Pulses with Guts.

Gain 1302 kinetic damage, 1568 internal damage, lose 1264 elemental damage.

 

 

 

If weapon/kinetic damage is reduced by 20% compared to elemental/internal damage, then:

Energy Blast - Gain 622 damage in 30 seconds relative to base case.

Gut - Gain 1346 damage in 30 seconds relative to base case.

 

If weapon/kinetic damage is reduced by 50% compared to elemental/internal damage, then:

Energy Blast - Gain 1117 damage in 30 seconds relative to base case.

Gut - Gain 955 damage in 30 seconds relative to base case.

 

Caveat here is that I'm still using the Torhead damage value for Gut, which is suspect. I don't suppose someone at level 50 with Gut can give their Gut, Ion Pulse, and Hammershot tooltips?

Edited December 29, 2011 by BrianBairstow

[Therael]

Don't know if the numbers are accurate without dropping the points into it (I'll respec later, I've been wanting to try gut for a while now) the tool tip reads:

 

Gut: 462 - 494 K dmg plus 576 internal over 15 seconds (478 av. K dmg (plus the unmitigated dot) / 527 dmg per ammo with the full dot)

 

That's without the 6% bonus from FO.

 

If the numbers change, I'll repost later.

[BrianBairstow]

Hmm those Gut tooltip numbers are different than the ones quoted by Lilrys and also different from the ones I see in game, so I think they are the true values for our stats.

 

Applying a 6% buff from talents gives an average kinetic damage of 507 and internal damage of 611. Putting Therael's level 50 values through the standard calculations:

 

Energy Blast:

In a 30 second period, allows you to replace two Hammer Shots with Energy Blasts, and one Hammer Shot with Ion Pulse.

Gain 1942 elemental damage, lose 1650 weapon damage.

 

Gut:

 

In a 30 second period, allows you to replace two Ion Pulses with Guts.

Gain 1014 kinetic damage, 1221 internal damage, lose 1264 elemental damage.

 

-->

 

If weapon/kinetic damage is reduced by 20% compared to elemental/internal damage, then:

Energy Blast - Gain 622 damage in 30 seconds relative to base case.

Gut - Gain 768 damage in 30 seconds relative to base case.

 

If weapon/kinetic damage is reduced by 50% compared to elemental/internal damage, then:

Energy Blast - Gain 1117 damage in 30 seconds relative to base case.

Gut - Gain 464 damage in 30 seconds relative to base case.

 

According to these numbers, the crossover point is at 25.5% damage reduction from armor. This is precisely the value experienced by Lilrys for a level 41 strong mob when at level 40.

 

A few other considerations: If you can do something more useful than Ion Pulses with your ammo (eg Explosive Surge vs multiple enemies) then Energy Blast gains value. If you have high crit/surge, Energy Blast gains value. The Gut dot gains value for High-Impact Bolt and in pvp (interrupting captures and resting).

 

Guess I'll edit this into the OP.

[Waron]

GJ OP, looks very equal. Makes it much more tempting to go for gut. Since 10% Shield chance is only 2.6% Damage Reduction I don't wanna spend more points in Shield Tech than I have to ;P

[SpamAassassin]

I'd just like to point that the PVP 2-piece set bonus for tanking (Supercommando) gear reduces the cooldown on EB and Storm by 1.5 seconds, so that set becomes much less desirable if you don't have EB. If you're a Vanguard without EB, you probably are going to want the DPS PVP set (Combat Tech).

 

See the set bonuses here:

Supercommando (tank)

Combat Tech (DPS)