Toxic Atmosphere

[ivanhedgehog]

I've answered this before, but I will again. First I will give you an analogy. Golf.

 

First off I'm a very mediocre golfer, high 80s, low 90s on my home course. But I had to put in a fair amount of work to get there as I have absolutely no ability at the game. And I have a brew and tell lies around 18 holes, because thats the sort of crazies I hang out with.

massive snip

 

Some want money and things to decorate their stronghold. Some want L50 companions. All L50 companions. On every toon, all 10 of them. Or something.

 

And so they want to be able to grind to get that.

 

And I say, make those things the collectors want easier to get. But don't make the holes on the greens the size of hoola hoops for the folks that want to play golf, you know? Conflating too things, and thats the root of the problem - in one man's opinion.

 

No anger, no grr, just my honest rambling answer to your question.

 

lets continue that analogy.

 

If you want to continue to be able to play golf, you must play every day. and they have made the weight of the gold balls vary randomly. so 16 holes now takes 6 hours..every day..and if you hit a ball in the rough, you must pay a $20 fee. still like golf?

the hardcore golfers are standing in the clubhouse telling you you just need to "learn to play". but for some reason, you arent allowed to disagree with them.

[YankeeDelta]

Becouse it's not healthy for the game to have population of only, let's call things for what they are, noobs.

 

There are a lot of people who do group content in this game. Maybe they aren't a majority, but they are still a big fraction, and sure as hell they are mostly subs.

 

You seem to believe that the group content exists completely separately from solo game. But that's wrong. People leave. Constantly. It's not the question of game being good or bad, it's just question of people having enough of it and moving on. Where do new people come from to replace them? That's right. Solo game.

 

And the way solo game worked before this "nerf", it provided group content with unending stream of horrible, absolutely clueless noobs. They know absolutely nothing of the game, becouse they never were forced to learn it. So they come, shining, into realm of Ops and FPs. And get horribly rekt - becouse they don't have a slightest idea how to play the game. And when people start calling them out for that, such noobs feel like they are being mistreated, and either leave grouping forever, or proceed to grief it, shielding behind calling others "elitist snobs". And that kills group content for entire population.

 

You got called names for being bad? Well, that's not a good thing, sure. But ask yourself, what if, while playing solo, you were forced to learn game a bit more? Maybe, if you came into group a bit more educated, it wouldn't have ended this way?

 

Becouse as much as I'm up to explaining things to new player, even I sometimes have enough of it. And I was coming close to this state.

 

So... your argument is essentially that the game experience shouldn't be focused on providing paying customers with an enjoyable experience, but instead should be focused on "preparing players" so that when players reach end game they can be forcibly funneled, through lack of alternative content, towards filling out a raid roster?

 

In other words, players exist solely to provide you with the disposable teammates you need so that you can ultimately have the game experience you desire? Because you are unable or unwilling to cultivate friendships and build up your raid roster in a more organic manner?

 

Sadly, that may just be both Bioware's guiding vision for the game and the reason that their subscriber numbers are so low.

[ivanhedgehog]

Becouse it's not healthy for the game to have population of only, let's call things for what they are, noobs.

 

There are a lot of people who do group content in this game. Maybe they aren't a majority, but they are still a big fraction, and sure as hell they are mostly subs.

 

You seem to believe that the group content exists completely separately from solo game. But that's wrong. People leave. Constantly. It's not the question of game being good or bad, it's just question of people having enough of it and moving on. Where do new people come from to replace them? That's right. Solo game.

 

And the way solo game worked before this "nerf", it provided group content with unending stream of horrible, absolutely clueless noobs. They know absolutely nothing of the game, becouse they never were forced to learn it. So they come, shining, into realm of Ops and FPs. And get horribly rekt - becouse they don't have a slightest idea how to play the game. And when people start calling them out for that, such noobs feel like they are being mistreated, and either leave grouping forever, or proceed to grief it, shielding behind calling others "elitist snobs". And that kills group content for entire population.

 

You got called names for being bad? Well, that's not a good thing, sure. But ask yourself, what if, while playing solo, you were forced to learn game a bit more? Maybe, if you came into group a bit more educated, it wouldn't have ended this way?

 

Becouse as much as I'm up to explaining things to new player, even I sometimes have enough of it. And I was coming close to this state.

 

its not healthy for a game to lose large chunks of their subscriber base. EA was pretty clear what they expected out of bioware with the new movie coming out. this doesnt look good for them. EA will shut this game down if it doesnt perform.

[Pagy]

You and others like you were complaining.

i seem to recall saying that i didn't care, please don't put words into my mouth. what other players do with their companions doesnt affect me. the only way it did was owpvp which doesnt exist anymore so, again, not an issue.

 

The Dev even cited your response to say community was divded. The majority always supported the changes. Most of the people that supported it were not creating a dozen threads trying to get nuked to hell. They were in game enjoying it. Myself I was leveling 5 different ALT's at different times. I always knew more people overwhelmingly so supported the changes. Now you are seeing people who have their fun robbed due to people that were obsessed with making this game more time consuming and for what reason. Why did you and those like you need make this game more of a grind then needed.

 

Are you happy with the current changes. I remember you complaining about it. Now it seems like your trying back pedal due to the backlash. Let me know how that works out.

again you're blaming players.

 

BW intended for content to be more challenging.

BW felt that companions' strength affected the challenge.

BW decided to sledgehammer them.

 

stop blaming other players. its toxic and pointless.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Pagy

[xxHellsmokexx]

Pre 4.0, I soloed 95% of the time, and only grouped in open world if there was a slow spawn involved just so we wouldn't be competing over pulls. I rarely did dailies, only some weeklies, and only ever grouped for H4s until I out leveled them enough to solo them, except of course the Section X that *needed* 4 because of mechanics. About the only HMs I did were for HK parts....never wiped. I did one SM Op ever...as a tank in barely adequate gear (they were desperate lol), and was able to get the Op through without any deaths just by being told the mechanics of the fight right before. I don't say this to say I'm pro...quite the opposite. You can be casual and want a game to provide some level of stimulation beyond "push button, receive reward". It's not about forcing people to group.

 

So now it's "push button ten times(meditate) ,receive reward". That what you call stimulation? Give me a break..

[SteveTheCynic]

Quesh.

 

Now THAT's a toxic atmosphere.

And here is the winner of this thread...

[RogerApple]

i seem to recall saying that i didn't care, please don't put words into my mouth. what other players do with their companions doesnt affect me. the only way it did was owpvp which doesnt exist anymore so, again, not an issue.

 

again you're blaming players.

 

BW intended for content to be more challenging.

BW felt that companions' strength affected the challenge.

BW decided to sledgehammer them.

 

stop blaming other players. its toxic and pointless.

 

If BW didn't listen to you or you didn't think they would listen then

Why did you even create the threads every day for almost a month in the first place

 

What I think is due to the backlash. Many people like you who supported the nerf are now trying say "Well its not our fault. BW doesn't listen to us. It doesn't matter if we create a thousand threads a day. They didn't listen" yet in BW reply they said the community was "divided" so they did listen somewhat.

 

What I don't understand why you and those who supported the nerf are trying so hard to dodge responsibility for the nerf. What did you think would happen if you complained all day and night. That was your entire goal to complain so much they almost knee jerk forced reversed that's exactly what took place.

[Pagy]

If BW didn't listen to you or you didn't think they would listen then

Why did you even create the threads every day for almost a month in the first place

this is getting ridiculous. i never created any companion threads.

 

What I think is due to the backlash. Many people like you who supported the nerf are now trying say "Well its not our fault. BW doesn't listen to us. It doesn't matter if we create a thousand threads a day. They didn't listen" yet in BW reply they said the community was "divided" so they did listen somewhat.

 

What I don't understand why you and those who supported the nerf are trying so hard to dodge responsibility for the nerf. What did you think would happen if you complained all day and night. That was your entire goal to complain so much they almost knee jerk forced reversed that's exactly what took place.

again, i never supported a nerf. i've said numerous times, including the post you quoted, that i didnt care about companions. i'm completely indifferent. i'm still indifferent. companions dont affect me.

 

what i find funny though, is that you seem to always claim to know what a majority of players think (apparently you also know what i'm thinking before i do) and yet BW couldnt see your truth?

 

i'll say it again, too easy or too hard...both lead to loss of subs. i think BW missed the sweet spot...now twice.

[lord_Zephyr]

is it wrong to just want to be able to relax with a game? its not like I have friends to play with and I find the combat boring and irritating the only reason I was even playing was for the story. I'm not complaining that they made the game to difficult I can still solo most heroic 4+'s it just takes eons now.. and the combat is nowhere near good enough to carry the game.

 

at least pre nerf that companions made combat fast enough for it to be a minor irritation rather than a brick wall to bash my face into.

[HarleysRule]

If BW didn't listen to you or you didn't think they would listen then

Why did you even create the threads every day for almost a month in the first place

 

What I think is due to the backlash. Many people like you who supported the nerf are now trying say "Well its not our fault. BW doesn't listen to us. It doesn't matter if we create a thousand threads a day. They didn't listen" yet in BW reply they said the community was "divided" so they did listen somewhat.

 

What I don't understand why you and those who supported the nerf are trying so hard to dodge responsibility for the nerf. What did you think would happen if you complained all day and night. That was your entire goal to complain so much they almost knee jerk forced reversed that's exactly what took place.

 

People like to vent. I also never created new threads (unlike you), but posted in existing ones. If you want to blame *me* for the nerf, blame away lol.

 

If BW listened to anything (questionable this is the case), they listened to the cancellations over changes to the game, which to be fair happens all the time. If those of us that thought 4.0 needed a nerf were such a small minority as you claim, they wouldn't have listened to us, unless you're some conspiracy theorist that thinks they go out of their way to piss customers off. For now, I accept their explanation that they didn't intend for comps to be so OPd, but they suck at QA, and doubled down on their fail by over nerfing as most devs do. I guess we'll find out if they restore comps to 4.0 god mode, or actually find a sweet spot somewhere between 4.0 and 4.0.2

Edited November 19, 2015 by HarleysRule

[RogerApple]

this is getting ridiculous. i never created any companion threads.

 

again, i never supported a nerf. i've said numerous times, including the post you quoted, that i didnt care about companions. i'm completely indifferent. i'm still indifferent. companions dont affect me.

 

what i find funny though, is that you seem to always claim to know what a majority of players think (apparently you also know what i'm thinking before i do) and yet BW couldnt see your truth?

 

i'll say it again, too easy or too hard...both lead to loss of subs. i think BW missed the sweet spot...now twice.

 

You think I don't remember your screen name when we were talking about the nerfs. Okay I'll play along your supposedly an innocent bystander in all this right. A majority of players do support the pre nuke nerf. It reflected as much in two separate polls taken. I know that because a majority doesn't have time to sit here all day and night. They have jobs during the day things to do.

 

There are far more people out things with things to do with a wife, husband, daughter, sister etc that they have take of then there are people that have 24/7 to play on here. You don't have be a rocket scientist to figure that out. Secondly it was never hard before. It was just time consuming. The game literally is the same as it was expect "we die more often" and "its a longer grind" that's it. There is no harder or challenge. You are playing a video game.

 

Those should not try get real life achievements out of a video game. It simply won't work. If you want a real achievement go offline and earn it. For someone that is "indifferent" you sure seem annoyed that the majority were fine with companions. Why is that.

 

People like to vent. I also never created new threads (unlike you), but posted in existing ones.

 

If BW listened to anything (questionable this is the case), they listened to the cancellations over changes to the game, which to be fair happens all the time. If those of us that thought 4.0 needed a nerf were such a small minority as you claim, they wouldn't have listened to us, unless you're some conspiracy theorist that thinks they go out of their way to piss customers off. For now, I accept their explanation that they didn't intend for comps to be so OPd, but they suck at QA, and doubled down on their fail by over nerfing as most devs do. I guess we'll find out if they restore comps to 4.0 god mode, or actually find a sweet spot somewhere between 4.0 and 4.0.2

 

They literally said in their reply they cited community response they said it was "divided" logically lets look at that. How would they know that. They had to listen somewhat take the response into their choice making. What I find interesting now so many people are trying to wave responsibility. You complained. You own it now.

Edited November 19, 2015 by RogerApple

[Cirorec]

I've answered this before, but I will again. First I will give you an analogy. Golf.

 

First off I'm a very mediocre golfer, high 80s, low 90s on my home course. But I had to put in a fair amount of work to get there as I have absolutely no ability at the game. And I have a brew and tell lies around 18 holes, because thats the sort of crazies I hang out with.

 

Now if I showed up one day and the holes had went from normal size to the size of hoola hoops, we'd laugh and have fun with that. Maybe even the second day. After a week or two though, yeah we'd find creative ways to make the game more challenging, I guess. But all of those would be strange and artificial, and you'd be reminded over and over that the game had sort of been made a joke.

.

 

Actually the analogy would be that you find the golf way too easy and force the governing body of gold to change the hole size to just slightly larger than the size that the ball.

[Pagy]

You think I don't remember your screen name when we were talking about the nerfs.

remember it all you want. you have to power to search/quote anything i've said.

i really doubt you'll find any post from me requesting a nerf. because it didnt happen. i've whined about level sync, not companions.

Okay I'll play along your supposedly an innocent bystander in all this right. A majority of players do support the pre nuke nerf.

says you.

It reflected as much in two separate polls taken. I know that because a majority doesn't have time to sit here all day and night. They have jobs during the day things to do.

neither poll scientific, both polls posted here where people come to complain, and in a place where only a small number of subscribers are represented. your polls are meaningless. i'm not saying they are wrong, i'm saying they are meaningless.

There are far more people out things with things to do with a wife, husband, daughter, sister etc that they have take of then there are people that have 24/7 to play on here. You don't have be a rocket scientist to figure that out. Secondly it was never hard before. It was just time consuming. The game literally is the same as it was expect "we die more often" and "its a longer grind" that's it. There is no harder or challenge. You are playing a video game.

ok? i don't see the point of all this.

Those should not try get real life achievements out of a video game. It simply won't work. If you want a real achievement go offline and earn it.

some people like challenging video games, others don't. i dont see as one group right and one group wrong.

For someone that is "indifferent" you sure seem annoyed that the majority were fine with companions. Why is that.

again, strawman. can you please stick to the things i say and do and stop fabricating events?

They literally said in their reply they cited community response they said it was "divided" logically lets look at that. How would they know that. They had to listen somewhat take the response into their choice making. What I find interesting now so many people are trying to wave responsibility. You complained. You own it now.

i guess they should have looked at your polls and made decisions that way since it was so clear to you.

 

Eric has just posted, again, their intentions with the content. and again, reiterates that different content should present a different level of difficulty. BW decides these things, not players, not polls, not me and not you.

[Jedi_riches]

OP its really come "alive" in the lead up to 4.0 and onwards

1) Level sync was a big issue at one point (when it was datamined announced)

2) having to do PvP to obtain 2 companions post chapter 9

3) companion nerf

 

All of these topics have recently divided the community, but unfortunately there is no way around it as you have people on both sides who refuse to accept the other sides view.

[HarleysRule]

You think I don't remember your screen name when we were talking about the nerfs. Okay I'll play along your supposedly an innocent bystander in all this right.

 

Because it's real hard to look at Pagy's post history and see he/she never started a thread about 4.0 companions?

 

They literally said in their reply they cited community response they said it was "divided" logically lets look at that. How would they know that. They had to listen somewhat take the response into their choice making. What I find interesting now so many people are trying to wave responsibility. You complained. You own it now.

 

I just said I'll own it if you want to blame me. Doesn't bother me a bit.

 

Here's the BW quote:

 

Some of you will certainly ask, why the need to nerf Companions? This is something that we definitely saw the community be divided on, and it was good for us to hear feedback from both sides. Ultimately, this decision came down to our own goals for Companions, along with data on how they were performing. What we saw in those instances is that Companions, simply put, were just way too good. Their healing and damage output could be greater than that of a very skilled player with a fully maximized character. In order for you to understand why we are making these changes, we thought it best to explain our goals for Companions in Fallen Empire.

 

In KotFE, with a large focus on going back to story, we wanted to make sure that all of our story content was accessible to all of our players. The power that Companions bring to the table, definitely played a part in that accessibility. Companions, from a combat perspective, should complement and provide support to your character, not overshadow them. However, in looking at how strong Companions are, we may have gone a bit too far in that direction. Simply put, while playing through much of the game, there are a lot of situations in regular combat where it is practically impossible for you to be killed if you have a healing Companion. Although this can be fun for a time, this wasn’t our goal. Companions should be strong, they should fill any role you need, but they should not make your actual gameplay be overshadowed by how strong they are.

Edited November 19, 2015 by HarleysRule

[g_land]

You think I don't remember your screen name when we were talking about the nerfs. Okay I'll play along your supposedly an innocent bystander in all this right. A majority of players do support the pre nuke nerf. It reflected as much in two separate polls taken. I know that because a majority doesn't have time to sit here all day and night. They have jobs during the day things to do.

 

There are far more people out things with things to do with a wife, husband, daughter, sister etc that they have take of then there are people that have 24/7 to play on here. You don't have be a rocket scientist to figure that out. Secondly it was never hard before. It was just time consuming. The game literally is the same as it was expect "we die more often" and "its a longer grind" that's it. There is no harder or challenge. You are playing a video game.

 

Those should not try get real life achievements out of a video game. It simply won't work. If you want a real achievement go offline and earn it. For someone that is "indifferent" you sure seem annoyed that the majority were fine with companions. Why is that.

 

 

 

They literally said in their reply they cited community response they said it was "divided" logically lets look at that. How would they know that. They had to listen somewhat take the response into their choice making. What I find interesting now so many people are trying to wave responsibility. You complained. You own it now.

 

So, there is this thing called a post history which you can check by clicking on someone's screen name and then going to statistics which gives two options... you know what they they tell us about the people you are accusing? That you are a ranting, raving lunatic which your own post history supports.

[RogerApple]

remember it all you want. you have to power to search/quote anything i've said.

i really doubt you'll find any post from me requesting a nerf. because it didnt happen. i've whined about level sync, not companions.

says you.

neither poll scientific, both polls posted here where people come to complain, and in a place where only a small number of subscribers are represented. your polls are meaningless. i'm not saying they are wrong, i'm saying they are meaningless.

ok? i don't see the point of all this.

some people like challenging video games, others don't. i dont see as one group right and one group wrong.

again, strawman. can you please stick to the things i say and do and stop fabricating events?

i guess they should have looked at your polls and made decisions that way since it was so clear to you.

 

Eric has just posted, again, their intentions with the content. and again, reiterates that different content should present a different level of difficulty. BW decides these things, not players, not polls, not me and not you.

 

I don't know why you even made a post to me if you were not going to follow with a constructive reply to my post. You asked a question. I answered it. It isn't a strawman.

 

I don't honestly know what point you were trying to make maybe I missed the point you were trying to make. What was it it. That you are "indifferent' to the entire companion thing. For someone being indifferent you sure seem annoyed that the majority supports companion how they were.

 

That's not just me saying it. That's polls even non science as they were. Have you ever heard of scientific c poll on the threads. Maybe I'm slow. i seem to have lost your point you were making. I saw Eric's post and I am going reply to that. It's just odd the people who complained who complained so loudly and so often. Are now placing their hands up and denying all responsibility how exactly does that work

 

So, there is this thing called a post history which you can check by clicking on someone's screen name and then going to statistics which gives two options... you know what they they tell us about the people you are accusing? That you are a ranting, raving lunatic which your own post history supports.

 

Someone asks me a question twice and I replied that makes me a raving lunatic. That's not only false and misleading. That's also plain wrong it also shows you literally have nothing to add but to try to mock but failed horribly .

Edited November 19, 2015 by RogerApple

[Pagy]

It's just odd the people who complained who complained so loudly and so often. Are now placing their hands up and denying all responsibility how exactly does that work

"A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument which was not advanced by that opponent."

[RogerApple]

"A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument which was not advanced by that opponent."

 

I know what a Stawman is. I am just denying that what it is. Just as you are denying the people who complained had nothing to do with the nerf. Thanks for your "enlighten" point of view. I am going go reply to Eric thing now.

[HarleysRule]

In previous posts, he also claims to have been playing forever, but his first post was barely a month ago asking newbie questions. Seems legit. Edited November 19, 2015 by HarleysRule

[RogerApple]

In previous posts, he also claims to have been playing forever, but his first post was barely a month ago. Seems legit.

 

Let me clear something up. I was here during the Beta. I saw all the servers filled up. I saw how they created new ones for people because the wait time was so long. When I played there was no achievements. There also wasn't that new PVP map. I'm not asking you to accept it as reality. That's what it is. I had my founders title.

 

It was so long ago. I forgot the password to my email that I used. So I created a new account instead of going my old one. [is that so hard to understand?] I don't know what that has to do with anything. It doesn't literally have to do with anything. Have a good day.

[Pagy]

I know what a Stawman is. I am just denying that what it is. Just as you are denying the people who complained had nothing to do with the nerf. Thanks for your "enlighten" point of view. I am going go reply to Eric thing now.

you are attacking arguments i've never made. if you'd like, you can quote posts i've made yet you continue to refuse to do so.

 

discourse on the forums can raise BW's awareness, but doesn't change their design philosophy. and if a majority was fine with everything as you so claim, then it contradicts your ability to claim that BW used input from the forums to influence their design philosophy.

In previous posts, he also claims to have been playing forever, but his first post was barely a month ago asking newbie questions. Seems legit.

the number of extremely vocal people on the forums that have mysteriously just created accounts in the last 30 days is pretty interesting. Edited November 19, 2015 by Pagy

[HarleysRule]

Let me clear something up. I was here during the Beta. I saw all the servers filled up. I saw how they created new ones for people because the wait time was so long. When I played there was no achievements. There also wasn't that new PVP map. I'm not asking you to accept it as reality. That's what it is. I had my founders title.

 

It was so long ago. I forgot the password to my email that I used. So I created a new account instead of going my old one. [is that so hard to understand?] I don't know what that has to do with anything. It doesn't literally have to do with anything. Have a good day.

 

When you accuse people of starting threads they never created, it hurts something called "credibility". Anyone can claim to have been here since beta and been a subscriber non stop since launch...neither of which mean squat, BTW.