SWTOR Duelling Tournament - Round 1A: Beniboybling vs Cs_zoltan

[Beniboybling]

*reads over responses*

Windu, by G-canon quotes, were put next to Yoda and Sidious. And these are Lucas' words themselves. I guess they hold more water than fan speculations. Yes Yoda and Sidious is more powerful than Windu, but he is not out of their league. Yes, Vaapad played a huge role in Windu's duel with Sidious, but he will have that here as well (albeit to a lesser degree).

You mean the description of the fight according to the novel, if you're not prepared to acknowledge Legends as fact then that's your problem, because this tournament acknowledges them.

 

Nonetheless your assuming that Dooku is out of Sidious and Yoda's league, he is not. By association (being referred to as Windu's equal time over) he is, and on top of that has contended with Yoda or two occasions.

Dooku's age wasn't a hinderence for him most of the time, but when he will be pressed by his equal wielding the most deadly lightsaber form by far, and said equal is 30 years younger than Him, I bet he will feel his age.

Conjecture. On what basis other than your personal opinion are you concluding this?

Except Windu did master a form to at least the degree Dooku did. He even made a new form out of it. If you ask me mastering the hardest, ultimate form to the highest degree is more impressive than doing the same with any other form.

Also it's kind of funny how you think that working knowledge of forms equals mastery of every form

Great, what do you want me to do, give him a pat on the back?

 

Windu took a flawed style and perfected it, but that doesn't mean it can beat Dooku's Makashi. Any more than it means Windu can beat Yoda, or Sidious, or any other duelist who didn't take on said challenge.

Also while we are at the lightsaber form I'd like to point out that Makashi has problems with power duelist, because they can't generate enough kinetic energy. And Form VII is stated to be even more kinetic than Form V.

You're point being?

 

Makashi's weakness isn't kinetic attacks - in fact Dooku performed pretty admirably against Yoda despite his Ataru, and humiliated Kenobi's - it's weakness is against strength-orientated swordplay, that shunt aside its precision attacks and bash through its footwork. Form VII is not so blunt or brute a style, instead it has a focus on speed and precision.

Lastly Windu used Sokan enough. He used it against Sidious, and Talzin. I think that speaks for itself.

Yes it does.

 

It speaks of standard ability, an individual skilled enough not to neglect it, but hardly a master of the technique.

You said that Sidious threw the fight. Firstly that's just a fan theory. A very valid one, but theory none the less. Secondly, Sidious almost killed Windu when he made his move to the window. So tell me what fight would've Sidious threw if he killed Windu?

And it's equally theoretical that he didn't. The fact that he was playing possum is implied even in the movie, but it remains that, an implication. Nobody, including George Lucas himself, has been clear on the reality of the outcome.

 

However you don't appear to be well versed, Sidious threw the fight because he wanted to appear the victim. If Anakin came in to find the entire strike team slaughtered at Palpatine's hand, he'd hardly be in a position to plead innocent.

 

What it comes down to however is the likelihood that Windu could lead Sidious by the nose, Darth frikken Sidious.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

TPM Maul didn't quickly defeat TPM Kenobi. They dueled in earnest, Kenobi even cut his saber in half. In the end Maul did what he always does when he can't overcome Kenobi, he resorted to TK.

He dueled Jinn and Kenobi both for a full five minutes, he defeated Kenobi in 40 seconds. Yes he did so through TK, but it's made quite evident that Kenobi was rapidly losing ground:

Bit by bit, he pressed him back, carrying the attack to him, looking to catch him off guard. Obi-Wan could sense his body weakening, and his fear of what it would mean if he, too, were to fall, began to grow...

 

--Taken from The Phantom Menance novelisation.

Which allowed him to use the terrain to his advantage. Point being, Jinn did notably better, and yet Maul not only surpassed his skills, but nigh eclipsed them both. Real point being that given it is stated that Kenobi is not in his league, the only means this contention was made possible was through his bout of fury and the element of surprise.

Kenobi's offense caught Maul offguard in TPM, and in TCW. Kenobi managed to fool him twice

So he's not going to be fooled a third time is he? Maul can be forgiven for not anticipating the aggressive style his opponent favoured as a Padawan, but he now fully aware of what Master Kenobi is capable of.

and prime Kenobi employed Sokan to greater effect and more times than Maul. There's no reason the believe that Kenobi wouldn't be the one to dictate this duel.

No there is not, better yet Maul will let him. But it won't end well for Obi-Wan.

Here's the requested quote on the arm bending:

Lovely, too bad Grievous still gave him an @ss kicking.

He also kicked Maul backward several meters:

And that was with his "OP" legs.

Difference being Maul suffers zero injury, same can't be said for Kenobi, here's how it's done:

 

 

You get the idea. Fact is Maul packs a much bigger punch, Kenobi's kicks will just piss him off.

Here's an instance when he blocks Savage with his weaker arm (no wall needed):

Well Kenobi would be in a poor position indeed if he couldn't block a single one of Savage's attacks. However the fact remains that he has and will struggle with Savage's strength, and Maul by association.

You can lowball Kenobi's speed feat against Dooku all you want, Maul still won't be faster than Kenobi...

That's not the point, the point is Kenobi doesn't possess the speed to overwhelm Maul.

Which brings me to your claim that in terms of force power the difference is vast. Well it is not. If it would be then Maul would irrefutably be vastly stronger, and faster than Kenobi. But he isn't. He also doesn't outclass him in Sense category. And in alter the difference is slim. The only reason Maul can ragdoll Kenobi, because that is his weakness.

 

That's just his weakness? Baseless nonsense. Force barriers are among the first things Jedi and Sith alike are taught, and it's strength directly correlates with one's mastery over the Force. Is that what you're claiming, that Kenobi has not fully mastered the Force? That his abilities are unrefined, incomplete? Or has he some condition I'm unaware of?

 

Nonetheless you're correct, it is a weakness, and one Maul will exploit.

About Greivous: Whether you acknowlege or not, Kenobi has just as good speed as Maul, yet:

 

Not to mention his 20 strike per second is way out of what Maul can hope to achieve. And 19 strikes per second is within Kenobi's capability defend.

Also Grievous can hold his own against Maul:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4228522-battle7.png

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4228698-maul+vs+grievous2.png

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4228699-maul+vs+grievous3.png

That's only 2 lightsaber, I doubt Maul could last against 4. Considering that Windu couldn't, and Windu > Maul.

And yet Windu > Kenobi. Why is that? Because you don't need to be able to strike 20 times per second to defeat Obi-Wan. Maul unlike Grievous isn't going to just throw as many strikes at his opponent as possible, and has several advantages, and in turn several means of achieving victory, that Grievous decidedly lacks.

 

 

1. Superior skill, Grievous form is impressive but its a far cry from swordsmastery, he lacks the ability Maul possesses, he doesn't feint, parry, riposte etc. he just buzz saws.
    
    
   
2. Superior strength, Grievous may be able to attack faster than Maul, but Maul can attack with greater force, force that I have described will build and Maul's rage intensifies, until it proves overpowering. And that counts for physical attacks as well, again every kick, punch or larrup, is going to wear Kenobi down until he breaks.
    
    
   
3. Agility, as I said Grievous can attack faster, but Maul can move faster, attacking from multiple angles and from all sides to find a whole in Kenobi's offense, and landing physical blows to a greater effect than Grievous can.
   

 

And then of course the Force. His ability to toss Kenobi around his an advantage that cannot be understated. Altogether this line of argument that Maul is just a "slower, Force-sensitive Grievous" couldn't be more wrong.

Anyway Kenobi doesn't have to defeat Maul. He's smarter than that.

 

All he has to do is live longer than Savage, which he is more than equiped to do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1oWW6cJn8s&t=0m11s Edited August 5, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

If you expect hyperboles to win you this round you must be more desperate than I though. Kenobi dying under minutes? You can't be serious.

The average person can hold for what, 3 minutes underwater?

 

Kenobi may be above average, but the man needs to breath. Trained Force-sensitives can hold there breath above water for long periods of time by filtering the air, but there track record is not as good underwater where there is no oxygen at all. For example an excerpt from Kenobi and Ventress' underwater brawl:

Instead of moving back, Obi-Wan moved in. She butted him in the mouth, ripping out his rebreather. But the movement stunned her, and he tore hers out in the same instant.

 

So. There they were, the two of them, beneath the water. The first to bolt for the surface would be exposed and vulnerable. The first one to break loses.

 

Well, then, Ventress. Which of us can hold our breath longer?

 

This would be as good a place as any to die. If this was his end, how better than to take a creature like Ventress with him?

 

And she saw his face. Yes. Like Duris. I’m ready to die here and now, and for these reasons. I’m willing to die to kill you. Can you say the same?

 

In the same instant, Obi-Wan threw caution to the winds, and went at her. His blade was here, there, at all angles, and her wound slowed her…

 

She wielded her single remaining blade, eyes wide and staring.

 

Then something broke inside Ventress. She shrieked a mouthful of bubbles, and triggered something at her belt. The water around her churned into an expanding onyx cloud, as if she had emptied an ink-sack into it.

 

And in a flurry of bubbles and blackness, Asajj Ventress was gone.

 

--Taken from The Cestus Deception

In a brief engagement that lasted certainly no more than a minute, Ventress, who should have superior stamina to Kenobi, was left gasping for air as a result of her injury and exerting herself against him.

 

Kenobi is going to have hands that could all but snap his neck at his throat, if not a foot squashing his lungs, literally squeezing the life out of him, on top of any injuries Kenobi has already sustained.

 

He will be at Maul's mercy, again, I do not expect him to last any longer than a minute.

I don't even know where you get the idea from that Maul could use Sokan against Kenboi, let alone to greater effect. Kenobi has a lot more Sokan feats than Maul, which includes Maul himself! All Maul has is using Sokan on a padawan Kenobi...

What logic! It's Kenobi's Sokan that will lead him into this situation in the first place:

Maul has fallen to Kenobi's Sokan more than once, even leaving his brother alone with a dangerous opponent:

Kenobi could easily use this to lure Maul into the water

 

All Maul need do is note the environment, and play along. He's smart enough to manage that.

Not to mention that Maul never used TK for Sokan, really he barely uses it at all.

http://33.media.tumblr.com/31a7f497ee40a26c6d09208973c96115/tumblr_inline_nqtjm7UO5U1roe2gd_500.gif

 

 

http://media.giphy.com/media/lELRD773cY7Sg/giphy.gif

TK will be his last resort.

Maul will do what he is able, he is able to use TK to drown Kenobi in the bog, Kenobi is luring him to said bog, he will therefore drown him. As he master once told him: "Push your advantage, always."

Anyway the water is not the important part, the mud is. And that's where Maul's leg will be detrimental. Half of Maul is metal, which is heavier than living tissue last time I checked. By simple physics Maul will submerge into the swamp more than Kenobi.

Which is why Kenobi will lure Maul to his watery grave. However we shouldn't overstate the advantage, though Maul's feet will sink deeper, it's not fast-setting concrete, Maul shouldn't have much difficulty pulling his feet out.

 

He'd have to get him in a particularly swampy section for it to have any real effect.

Also how do you see Kenobi drowning when he is a powerful jedi master?

When Maul has killed many a powerful Jedi Master? Yes. Do you see Kenobi recovering? You've failed to state how.

 

If he struggles Maul can at the very least relieve him of his lightsaber and either run him through or push for a purely physical, semi-underwater engagement, which for many of the same reasons will end with Kenobi losing. Altogether Kenobi will find himself in very disadvantageous terrain where Maul can push his strengths hard.

[Beniboybling]

Shaak Ti and Kenobi did fight together, but that's not utterly necessary for jedi. They can achieve synergy not just by massacring millions. Anyway they fought together in the First Battle of Geonosis, and the Battle of Kamino at least. And then there's this:

So they are familiar with each other, granted, I never claimed they wouldn't work well, working better than Savage and Maul is my point of contention. Working knowledge and some chance encounters hardly compare.

Savage's CQC skills are...fairly limited.

Orly?

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111179633/4625106-savage+h2h+with+ventress.gif

 

That was before his transformation, Savage comes from a warrior culture, his skill is considerable, as is his strength.

His saberstaff won't do him much good if he accidentally choppes Maul in two for the second time.

Considering profound ability they possess as a sychronised unit, that's highly unlikely.

Not to mention his skill with it, saberstaffs are difficult to master and Savage was sith for a year. I'm sure neither a Makashi master or a Soresu master will have problem with it.

Again I am afraid you are mistaken:

The count trained Opress in lightsaber combat, and despite Savage's initial lack of skill in the discipline, helped him to harness his rage until he became a master with the weapon.

 

--Taken from Star Wars Fact File 31 - 2014

Here is a neat demonstration:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=30&v=oAC_2yNwZgA

 

I think it's evident that Savage knows the saberstaff inside out, non-suprising as it very similar to the traditional Zhaboka, a Zabrak weapon that Maul states his people were fond off, and inspired his own saberstaff.

While Maul might be a master hand to hand combatant, and masterd Teras Kasi so did Kenobi.

Kenobi clearly has proficiency in martial arts, but he did not master Teras Kasi, which is purpose built to fight Jedi. Nor do I doubt he was trained to such a high level as Maul, who was trained in many other arts:

I took inspiration from the Jedi tradition of indoctrinating Force-sensitive infants when I selected one apprentice, whom I named Darth Maul. I took him from his home world, Iridonia, and raised him as I would construct the perfect weapon. I trained him in numerous exotic and forbidden martial arts, disciplined him constantly, and personally applied the Sith tattoos that were evidence of his complete dedication to the dark side.

 

--Taken from Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

However its largely irrelevant, as I'd already shown, Maul packs more punch, while Kenobi's attacks will be ineffective.

I won't even indulge with your ridiculous claim that both brothers are more powerful than Ti. Show me a Plagueis tier feat from either of them and I might even consider responding to this fancy of yours.

Show me Ti's Plagueis tier feat and the games can begin.

You seriosuly lowball Kenobi's endurance here. He walked away from a beating from Durge and Greivous. He fought with shrapnel in his freaking chest and arms, he overcome lethal poison, torture from Ventress and recovered from strong TK attack. I repeat: Maul can't put out enough damage with his TK to seriously harm him. He failed so several times.

Wonderful, that's just feats for the Brothers. Fact is he can't handle their fists, and Maul's kicks have killed a Jedi with a superior physique. After a thorough beating Kenobi was at Maul's mercy, as he will be here.

 

And as I recall I said that at best Maul and Savage's Force-based attacks will cause lasting injury. What they will definitely do is stun him, Kenobi has never shrugged their TK off, in fact he's been notably stunned and even disarmed by it, what TK will do is throw Kenobi off-balance, and put him in compromising positions.

 

And again I'd remind you that when thrown off-balance, Savage easily overpowered him:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111179633/4625136-savage+overpowers+kenobi.gif

 

It will not take much, and as his injuries build the chances of him faltering will increase exponentially.

And these were all pre-prime Kenobi. In reality in most of your arguments you are using pre-prime Kenobi.

Pre-prime Kenobi my @ss, he certainly improved as a duelist, but I see little to no evidence to suggest a significant increment in Force or physical ability that would suggest increased endurance.

[Beniboybling]

Not sure if you love hyperboles or just suck at physics....

If I didn't know any better, I'd say you're attempting to deflect from my point.

Anyway that's not how Shaak Ti would help Kenobi. This is how:

 

Step 1: Shaak Ti senses that Kenobi is in danger.

Step 2: She uses beast control on the Dragonsnake.

Step 3: ???

Step 4: profit

 

Shaak Ti has the best beast control of anyone presented in this battle. She used it in combat situation, on a freaking Sarlacc. And she shrugged of the attempt of Galen Marek to take away the control from her.

I appreciate you highlighting the leap in logic in your argument for me, saves some time.

 

Yes indeed, instead of acting on instinct and rushing to aid her drowning companion, Shaak Ti will somehow commune with a Dragonsnake without LOS while fending off Savage, that just so happens to maybe be nearby.

 

And Maul will tremble before it's terrible power. I concede, you win Zoltan

And this is if I would concede that Maul has the Sokan advantage as well as the advantage in water, which he does not. In either case.

Well we'll work on that, I'm a patient man.

[Beniboybling]

Electronic Manipulation

Two of Beni's combatant has some kind of mechanical parts. Savage has his whole left arm, and Maul has his lower torso and both legs.

Kenobi given the opportunity could force Savage to drop his saber, which would allow Ti to quickly strike in, potentially ending in Savage's death. Or he could use it to make Maul slip.

Once last trick eh? I suppose it's fitting. However it's unlikely to be fatal.

 

First and foremost we must remember that with is a 2 v 2, and Kenobi doesn't have the advantage a Force bond with Ti. She cannot know what Kenobi would be about to do, and would therefore be too engaged with Maul to intervene.

 

Secondly even without his lightsaber, Savage is far from defenceless. Kenobi will lunge and Savage need only sidestep, or otherwise leap out the way, it wouldn't be the first time he's evaded Kenobi and others in this manner:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111179633/4625057-savage+disarms+jedi.gif

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111179633/4625071-savage+dodges+kenobi.gif

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111179633/4625060-savage+dodges+kenobi+2.gif

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111179633/4625061-savage+dodges+kenobi+3.gif

 

And then of course Savage has his fists and his Force abilities to draw upon. And his lightsaber resistant armor, meaning Kenobi would have to land nothing short of a fatal blow. I'd remind everyone that Savage is a primal and instinctive animal, he will act quickly and on impulse, almost without thinking, to such an attack.

 

As for making Maul slip. That's hardly going to be fatal or worth it, Maul is incredibly agile and more than capable of recovering, the only person it would leave exposed is Kenobi by way of the concentration required to pull it off.

 

I expect it would be a last gasp before Kenobi is struck down, it will fail, and he will perish nonetheless.

[cs_zoltan]

 

*reads over responses*

You mean the description of the fight according to the novel, if you're not prepared to acknowledge Legends as fact then that's your problem, because this tournament acknowledges them.

 

Nonetheless your assuming that Dooku is out of Sidious and Yoda's league, he is not. By association (being referred to as Windu's equal time over) he is, and on top of that has contended with Yoda or two occasions.Conjecture. On what basis other than your personal opinion are you concluding this?Great, what do you want me to do, give him a pat on the back?

 

Windu took a flawed style and perfected it, but that doesn't mean it can beat Dooku's Makashi. Any more than it means Windu can beat Yoda, or Sidious, or any other duelist who didn't take on said challenge.You're point being?

 

Makashi's weakness isn't kinetic attacks - in fact Dooku performed pretty admirably against Yoda despite his Ataru, and humiliated Kenobi's - it's weakness is against strength-orientated swordplay, that shunt aside its precision attacks and bash through it's footwork. Form VII is not so blunt or brute a style, instead it has a focus on speed and precision.Yes it does.

 

It speaks of standard ability, an individual skilled enough not to neglect it, but hardly a master of the technique.And it's equally theoretical that he didn't. The fact that he was playing possum is implied even in the movie, but it remains that, an implication. Nobody, including George Lucas himself, has been clear on the reality of the outcome.

 

However you don't appear to be well versed, Sidious threw the fight because he wanted to appear the victim. If Anakin came in to find the entire strike team slaughtered at Palpatine's hand, he'd hardly be in a position to plead innocent.

 

What it comes down to however is the likelihood that Windu could lead Sidious by the nose, Darth frikken Sidious.

 

 

 

You claimed Windu has no accolades that would put him on equal footing with Dooku. Then I provide G-canon quotes and now you try to argue their accuracy. Well, good luck.

 

Which part of equals and 30 year younger don't you understand? They are equal in lightsaber skill, they are pretty much equal in force powers, but Dooku is way older...

 

You were saying about Makashi?

However, the greatest flaw of the Makashi system of combat was its inability to generate kinetic energy in it's application; the focus on precision and blade control hampered an adherent's ability to generate momentum in both offensive and defensive maneuvers.

...more open and kinetic than Form V...

 

As far as force powers go all I'll say is:

Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center—

And let it fountain out again.

 

[cs_zoltan]

Once last trick eh? I suppose it's fitting. However it's unlikely to be fatal.

 

First and foremost we must remember that with is a 2 v 2, and Kenobi doesn't have the advantage a Force bond with Ti. She cannot know what Kenobi would be about to do, and would therefore be too engaged with Maul to intervene.

 

Secondly even without his lightsaber, Savage is far from defenceless. Kenobi will lunge and Savage need only sidestep, or otherwise leap out the way, it wouldn't be the first time he's evaded Kenobi and others in this manner:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111179633/4625057-savage+disarms+jedi.gif

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111179633/4625071-savage+dodges+kenobi.gif

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111179633/4625060-savage+dodges+kenobi+2.gif

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111179633/4625061-savage+dodges+kenobi+3.gif

 

And then of course Savage has his fists and his Force abilities to draw upon. And his lightsaber resistant armor, meaning Kenobi would have to land nothing short of a fatal blow. I'd remind everyone that Savage is a primal and instinctive animal, he will act quickly and on impulse, almost without thinking, to such an attack.

 

As for making Maul slip. That's hardly going to be fatal or worth it, Maul is incredibly agile and more than capable of recovering, the only person it would leave exposed is Kenobi by way of the concentration required to pull it off.

 

I expect it would be a last gasp before Kenobi is struck down, it will fail, and he will perish nonetheless.

 

Are you seriosuly saying that droping your weapong mid combat or falling on your face is not hindrance?

 

Well it's hard to argue with logic like that...

 

Also you are forgetting something. The brothers repeatedly fallen for the unexpected.

Maul was caught offguard by Kenobi's offense in TPM and he got his saber cut in two. Then he underestimated an unarmed padawan and was caught offguard by his recovery so he got cut in two like his lightsaber. Maul and Savage was caught offguard by Kenobi's Ataru and he sent them packing with a broken leg and a missing arm.

 

In my team I have two of the most cunning, intelligent, resourceful jedi of history. Electronic manipulation or beast control or anything they can cook up can and will catch the brothers offgaurd again. And this time they can't disengage so it very well could be fatal for them.

Edited August 6, 2015 by cs_zoltan

[cs_zoltan]

 

He dueled Jinn and Kenobi both for a full five minutes, he defeated Kenobi in 40 seconds. Yes he did so through TK, but it's made quite evident that Kenobi was rapidly losing ground:

Bit by bit, he pressed him back, carrying the attack to him, looking to catch him off guard. Obi-Wan could sense his body weakening, and his fear of what it would mean if he, too, were to fall, began to grow...

 

--Taken from The Phantom Menance novelisation.

Which allowed him to use the terrain to his advantage. Point being, Jinn did notably better, and yet Maul not only surpassed his skills, but nigh eclipsed them both. Real point being that given it is stated that Kenobi is not in his league, the only means this contention was made possible was through his bout of fury and the element of surprise.So he's not going to be fooled a third time is he? Maul can be forgiven for not anticipating the aggressive style his opponent favoured as a Padawan, but he now fully aware of what Master Kenobi is capable of.No there is not, better yet Maul will let him. But it won't end well for Obi-Wan.Lovely, too bad Grievous still gave him an @ss kicking.Difference being Maul suffers zero injury, same can't be said for Kenobi, here's how it's done:

 

 

You get the idea. Fact is Maul packs a much bigger punch, Kenobi's kicks will just piss him off.Well Kenobi would be in a poor position indeed if he couldn't block a single one of Savage's attacks. However the fact remains that he has and will struggle with Savage's strength, and Maul by association.That's not the point, the point is Kenobi doesn't possess the speed to overwhelm Maul.

 

That's just his weakness? Baseless nonsense. Force barriers are among the first things Jedi and Sith alike are taught, and it's strength directly correlates with one's mastery over the Force. Is that what you're claiming, that Kenobi has not fully mastered the Force? That his abilities are unrefined, incomplete? Or has he some condition I'm unaware of?

 

Nonetheless you're correct, it is a weakness, and one Maul will exploit.And yet Windu > Kenobi. Why is that? Because you don't need to be able to strike 20 times per second to defeat Obi-Wan. Maul unlike Grievous isn't going to just throw as many strikes at his opponent as possible, and has several advantages, and in turn several means of achieving victory, that Grievous decidedly lacks.

 

 

1. Superior skill, Grievous form is impressive but its a far cry from swordsmastery, he lacks the ability Maul possesses, he doesn't feint, parry, riposte etc. he just buzz saws.
    
    
   
2. Superior strength, Grievous may be able to attack faster than Maul, but Maul can attack with greater force, force that I have described will build and Maul's rage intensifies, until it proves overpowering. And that counts for physical attacks as well, again every kick, punch or larrup, is going to wear Kenobi down until he breaks.
    
    
   
3. Agility, as I said Grievous can attack faster, but Maul can move faster, attacking from multiple angles and from all sides to find a whole in Kenobi's offense, and landing physical blows to a greater effect than Grievous can.
   

 

And then of course the Force. His ability to toss Kenobi around his an advantage that cannot be understated. Altogether this line of argument that Maul is just a "slower, Force-sensitive Grievous" couldn't be more wrong.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1oWW6cJn8s&t=0m11s

 

 

No, you are wrong. Kenobi is stated to be in Maul's league by TPM. You can beat someone who is in your league so you proved nothing. Case in point: Yoda vs Dooku.

It doesn't matter what he fooled Maul with, the point is he did. On several occasions. Kenobi is one of the most resourceful jedi there is. He learned even from the most cunning jedi ever. He can surprise him with just about anything, from electronic manipulation, or Ataru, to an unexpected TK attack.

Not to mention only because Maul potentially won't be caught offguard by Kenobi's Ataru it doesn't mean he can deal with it:

He [Vader] did not wish them to interfere, but to even warn them of would take concentration that he could not afford at the moment. Should his attention falter, Obi-Wan could kill him in the blink of an eye.

Vader > Maul. And this was a post-prime Ben Kenobi.

 

Your augmentation argument is still standing on shaking legs. First of are you really comparing a pre-prime Kenobi's augmented kick against a prime Maul with Maul's mechanical kick against a clearly beaten up Kenobi? Well I guess beggers can't be choosers...

Furthermore his speed doesn't have to overwhelm Maul, it's the opposite he have to stop. And I think I proved ample evidence that Kenobi won't be overwhelmed by Maul's speed or strength.

 

Wow your reaching argument just a lot more interesting. So you say jedis can't have weaknesses or strengths? Seriously? Then what about Corran? Awesome Tutaminis, ****** TK. How do you explain that? Or the fact that Kenobi's endurance, valor, sense, and TK are all in Maul's tier except his barrier? Which one do you think is the odd one out?

 

You still haven't said anything compeling how would Maul break Kenobi's Soresu. He's not a lot stronger, or faster, he's not more skilled, he's not more experienced, he's not smarter. Maul's one and only trick is TK, while Kenobi has several.

 

Edited August 6, 2015 by cs_zoltan

[cs_zoltan]

So they are familiar with each other, granted, I never claimed they wouldn't work well, working better than Savage and Maul is my point of contention. Working knowledge and some chance encounters hardly compare.

Knowing each other 30 times as longer as Savage and Maul hardly compares? Okay....

 

Orly?

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111179633/4625106-savage+h2h+with+ventress.gif

 

That was before his transformation, Savage comes from a warrior culture, his skill is considerable, as is his strength.

Exactly, before transformation. Before he became a lot bigger, and encumbered by heavy armor.

Considering profound ability they possess as a sychronised unit, that's highly unlikely.

The point is he have to hold back on his strikes, since Maul will be nearby. He can't just do this and get away with it:

Again I am afraid you are mistaken:

The count trained Opress in lightsaber combat, and despite Savage's initial lack of skill in the discipline, helped him to harness his rage until he became a master with the weapon.

 

--Taken from Star Wars Fact File 31 - 2014

Here is a neat demonstration:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=30&v=oAC_2yNwZgA

 

I think it's evident that Savage knows the saberstaff inside out, non-suprising as it very similar to the traditional Zhaboka, a Zabrak weapon that Maul states his people were fond off, and inspired his own saberstaff.

But he never reached mastery of any traditional lightsaber form. Going against a Makashi master like that? Ouch.

Kenobi clearly has proficiency in martial arts, but he did not master Teras Kasi, which is purpose built to fight Jedi.

Nor do I doubt he was trained to such a high level as Maul, who was trained in many other arts:

I took inspiration from the Jedi tradition of indoctrinating Force-sensitive infants when I selected one apprentice, whom I named Darth Maul. I took him from his home world, Iridonia, and raised him as I would construct the perfect weapon. I trained him in numerous exotic and forbidden martial arts, disciplined him constantly, and personally applied the Sith tattoos that were evidence of his complete dedication to the dark side.

 

--Taken from Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

Well whether he did or not, he did use it to great effect against Savage, Maul, and Anakin.

However its largely irrelevant, as I'd already shown, Maul packs more punch, while Kenobi's attacks will be ineffective.

No you didn't.

Show me Ti's Plagueis tier feat and the games can begin.

Already did.

Wonderful, that's just feats for the Brothers. Fact is he can't handle their fists, and Maul's kicks have killed a Jedi with a superior physique. After a thorough beating Kenobi was at Maul's mercy, as he will be here.

 

And as I recall I said that at best Maul and Savage's Force-based attacks will cause lasting injury. What they will definitely do is stun him, Kenobi has never shrugged their TK off, in fact he's been notably stunned and even disarmed by it, what TK will do is throw Kenobi off-balance, and put him in compromising positions.

Well Maul kicked Kenobi several times and he didn't die, so I guess your claim of superior physique was a lie...

 

Yet when Maul did TK Kenobi, and they outnumbered him it was Savage who had to walk away with a broken leg and one less arm. I guess Ti will be just wanking under a tree or something in the meantime, right?

 

And again I'd remind you that when thrown off-balance, Savage easily overpowered him:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111179633/4625136-savage+overpowers+kenobi.gif

It will not take much, and as his injuries build the chances of him faltering will increase exponentially.

Awesome, the same is true in reverse:

He would've died if not for Maul. Now add in a Ti to the mix...

 

Pre-prime Kenobi my @ss, he certainly improved as a duelist, but I see little to no evidence to suggest a significant increment in Force or physical ability that would suggest increased endurance.

How about handling the Chosen One's meteoric strikes?

[Aurbere]

Would like to make a point about the whole drowning thing, but I don't know if I should. Carry on, though.

[cs_zoltan]

I appreciate you highlighting the leap in logic in your argument for me, saves some time.

 

Yes indeed, instead of acting on instinct and rushing to aid her drowning companion, Shaak Ti will somehow commune with a Dragonsnake without LOS while fending off Savage, that just so happens to maybe be nearby.

 

And Maul will tremble before it's terrible power.

 

The dragonsnake lives in those swamps. Right. There. Also I wasn't aware that Ti have to look at the beast she tries to control. Can you quote it for me? And what do you mean fending off Savage? Savage will have to fend off Ti.

 

So essentially you aren't just saying that Savage & Maul > Ti & Kenobi, but also that Savage & Maul > Ti & Kenobi & Dragonsnake? Which is a 6 meter long predator that will without a doubt catch the brothers offguard. The brothers lost several times by being caught offguard, just sayin'...

 

Edited August 6, 2015 by cs_zoltan

[cs_zoltan]

 

The average person can hold for what, 3 minutes underwater?

 

Kenobi may be above average, but the man needs to breath. Trained Force-sensitives can hold there breath above water for long periods of time by filtering the air, but there track record is not as good underwater where there is no oxygen at all. For example an excerpt from Kenobi and Ventress' underwater brawl:

Instead of moving back, Obi-Wan moved in. She butted him in the mouth, ripping out his rebreather. But the movement stunned her, and he tore hers out in the same instant.

 

So. There they were, the two of them, beneath the water. The first to bolt for the surface would be exposed and vulnerable. The first one to break loses.

 

Well, then, Ventress. Which of us can hold our breath longer?

 

This would be as good a place as any to die. If this was his end, how better than to take a creature like Ventress with him?

 

And she saw his face. Yes. Like Duris. I’m ready to die here and now, and for these reasons. I’m willing to die to kill you. Can you say the same?

 

In the same instant, Obi-Wan threw caution to the winds, and went at her. His blade was here, there, at all angles, and her wound slowed her…

 

She wielded her single remaining blade, eyes wide and staring.

 

Then something broke inside Ventress. She shrieked a mouthful of bubbles, and triggered something at her belt. The water around her churned into an expanding onyx cloud, as if she had emptied an ink-sack into it.

 

And in a flurry of bubbles and blackness, Asajj Ventress was gone.

 

--Taken from The Cestus Deception

In a brief engagement that lasted certainly no more than a minute, Ventress, who should have superior stamina to Kenobi, was left gasping for air as a result of her injury and exerting herself against him.

 

Kenobi is going to have hands that could all but snap his neck at his throat, if not a foot squashing his lungs, literally squeezing the life out of him, on top of any injuries Kenobi has already sustained.

 

He will be at Maul's mercy, again, I do not expect him to last any longer than a minute.What logic! It's Kenobi's Sokan that will lead him into this situation in the first place:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAM6FycAyqA

 

All Maul need do is note the environment, and play along. He's smart enough to manage that.http://33.media.tumblr.com/31a7f497ee40a26c6d09208973c96115/tumblr_inline_nqtjm7UO5U1roe2gd_500.gif

 

 

http://media.giphy.com/media/lELRD773cY7Sg/giphy.gifMaul will do what he is able, he is able to use TK to drown Kenobi in the bog, Kenobi is luring him to said bog, he will therefore drown him. As he master once told him: "Push your advantage, always."Which is why Kenobi will lure Maul to his watery grave. However we shouldn't overstate the advantage, though Maul's feet will sink deeper, it's not fast-setting concrete, Maul shouldn't have much difficulty pulling his feet out.

 

He'd have to get him in a particularly swampy section for it to have any real effect.When Maul has killed many a powerful Jedi Master? Yes. Do you see Kenobi recovering? You've failed to state how.

 

If he struggles Maul can at the very least relieve him of his lightsaber and either run him through or push for a purely physical, semi-underwater engagement, which for many of the same reasons will end with Kenobi losing. Altogether Kenobi will find himself in very disadvantageous terrain where Maul can push his strengths hard.

 

 

 

So now even Ventress has superior stamina to Kenobi? I didn't think you could lowball Kenobi any more than you already have, but you can.

There's also this:

Using the Force power breath control, a Jedi could literally numb the body's instinct to shut itself down after long periods without oxygen, allowing the user to be able to go without breathing for longer periods than he or she ordinarily could by using the Force to reserve the amounts of air in the lungs. It was believed that some users of the technique could hold their breath for hours or even days with this power.

 

Furthermore Kenobi won't just back into the water so with a single push Maul could take the advantage, he'd go parallel to the shore. Then Maul will have to use Force Grab to launch Kenobi deeper into the water. Maul never actually managed to hold Kenobi for a prolonged time. He probably couldn't anyway. Once the surprise is gone, and Kenobi is no longer offguard he could break free with a push.

Likewise if Maul tries to hold him underwater with his hands or legs he can just use push again.

 

The biggest contributor to Kenobi being ragdolled is him being caught offgaurd. When isn't though he can defend agaisnt such things:

https://youtu.be/9pI8IkWa3LQ?t=2m2s

They spun and whirled throughout its levels, up its stairs, and across its platforms; they battled out onto the collection panels over which the cascades of lava poured, and Obi-Wan, out on the edge of the collection panel, hunching under a curve of durasteel that splashed aside gouts of lava, deflecting Force blasts and countering strikes from this creature of rage that had been his best friend, suddenly comprehended an unexpectedly profound truth.

Not to mention he had really strong TK as well:

https://youtu.be/_xP3fI7yn5s?t=3m5s

 

Either way it would take time for him to drown. By then Ti can save him one way or another. Most porbably with beast control. Which will in return catch Maul offgaurd. Something that he falls for repeatedly.

 

Edited August 6, 2015 by cs_zoltan

[cs_zoltan]

Would like to make a point about the whole drowning thing, but I don't know if I should. Carry on, though.

 

Now I want to know. Damn you for pulling the mysterious card

Edited August 5, 2015 by cs_zoltan

[Aurbere]

Now I want to know. Damn you for pulling the mysterious card

 

Don't worry. You got it.

[cs_zoltan]

I'd like to pick up the scenario after Kenobi's Sokan happened.

 

So now that Kenobi managed to lure Maul away from Savage and I provided more than one counter to his drowning, the two duel will rage on. I'm sure Ti will finish faster than Maul could with Kenobi because she outclasses Savage in almost every category, while Maul outclasses Kenobi in almost none.

 

Ti is more powerful force user, a better duelist, smarter, and more experienced than Savage. Savage's only edge is his physical strength, but Ti is no joke there either. He could send Marek flying with a single strike.

On the other hand Maul is not a better duelist, not smarter, not more experienced than Kenobi. Their powers in the force is also comparable, with the exception that Maul can ragdoll Kenobi.

So Ti have 4 edge over Savage, Savage only has one. Kenobi has 2 edge over Maul, Maul only has one. Not to mention that Kenobi is geared toward prolonged engagement with his unparalleled Soresu, Savage has nowhere the defenses Kenobi has.

 

Even Beni acknowledges that Savage has problems with precision strikes. And why wouldn't he? He wasn't properly trained in the traditional lightsaber forms. Ti on the other hand is a master of Makashi. Which is known for it's strength in lightsaber to lightsaber combat, and precision strikes.

Also Savage lack of experience might've been the contributor to his loss against Kenobi. If someone can catch Savage offguard it will be the highly intelligent and cunning, not to mention experienced Shaak Ti.

 

After Savage goes down Ti will help out Kenobi, since Windu vs Dooku fight will go on for a long while.

 

Shaak Ti knows Force Stealth, she can sneak up on Maul, since as far as I know Maul doesn't have substantial sense feat that would suggest he could see through it, especially when he is occupied with Kenobi. After that there are various ways Ti and Kenobi can deal with Maul. He is no match for their combined might, not to mention their ingenuity. If they haven't yet, now Kenobi and Ti can start pulling tricks out of their sleeve. These include Electronic Manipulation, Beast Control, subtle TK, Consitor Sato. Ti could even pick up Savage's saberstaff and use it with a single hand in combination with her standard lightsaber, she used this tactic before

. Eventually Maul will succumb.

 

After that a 3on1 duel is a sure loss for the Count.

Edited August 6, 2015 by cs_zoltan

[Beniboybling]

You claimed Windu has no accolades that would put him on equal footing with Dooku. Then I provide G-canon quotes and now you try to argue their accuracy. Well, good luck.

You're missing the point, the point is that said accolade only proves your point if you ignore its Legends contexts. Yes Windu was able to challenge Sidious, but because of his skill with Vaapad and Vaapad alone, not because of his Force abilities and is therefore irrelevant as proof of said ability, unless you consider Canon only.

 

Indeed, need I remind you that before using Vaapad, Sidious was too fast for Windu to even see?

Before Mace realizes what has happened, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto have fallen to Sidious's blade.

 

--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary

On the other hand, without any kind of amp, Dooku was able to contend with Master Yoda. And yet I'm to believe that "they are pretty much equal in Force powers"? You have no grounds for such a claim.

Which part of equals and 30 year younger don't you understand?

What part of "Dooku's age was rarely a handicap" don't you? It's quite simple, Dooku's age does not hinder his ability, unless pushed to his absolute brink in a way that only the Chosen One, with several advantages, has accomplished. You've failed to prove that Windu will push him as far bar your own baseless opinion.

They are equal in lightsaber skill

Well at least you've admitted that much, I have high hopes for the rest.

You were saying about Makashi?

You're confused, which is understandable. Allow me to be more clear, Makashi cannot generate sufficient kinetic energy, but that doesn't make it's weakness kinetic attacks, but strength-orientated swordplay.

 

Your assuming that its inability to generate sufficient kinetic energy makes it weak against kinetic attacks, which your assuming requires equal kinetic force to effectively counter, but that is an assumption, and nowhere stated.

 

And frankly it's disproven by Dooku's performance against Yoda, in which he is never said to have a stylistic advantage. In fact I cannot recall a single instance where Ataru is said to > Makashi, despite being highly kinetic.

As far as force powers go all I'll say is:

Which was only made possible by his emotional state, using a superconducting loop can only at its best, make one equal to one's adversary. Considering therefore that Windu will not be using it to such an extent, its impossible for Windu to use Dooku's power to level the playing field, although I don't deny it will be of some use.

[Beniboybling]

No, you are wrong. Kenobi is stated to be in Maul's league by TPM.

And where is this statement? It's customary for a debater to back up their claims with evidence, not circumvent the entirety of their opponents argument to assert a baseless claim as you are doing.

 

I've provided ample proof that Kenobi was beneath him, objective proof, I await yours.

You can beat someone who is in your league so you proved nothing.

Merely because you've missed or rather dodged the point, that Kenobi was defeated with greater ease than Jinn, who is stated to be beneath him as a duelist, Kenobi is therefore all the more his inferior.

 

And that is on top of statements that claim Maul eclipsed their combined ability, which you've also failed to address.

It doesn't matter what he fooled Maul with, the point is he did. On several occasions. Kenobi is one of the most resourceful jedi there is. He learned even from the most cunning jedi ever. He can surprise him with just about anything, from electronic manipulation, or Ataru, to an unexpected TK attack.

And Maul recovered, each time, as he will do so here. Most likely by slapping him about with the Force.

Not to mention only because Maul potentially won't be caught offguard by Kenobi's Ataru it doesn't mean he can deal with it:

 

Vader > Maul. And this was a post-prime Ben Kenobi.

Because Maul is going to take his eye off his opponent? Surely not without flooring him first.

Your augmentation argument is still standing on shaking legs. First of are you really comparing a pre-prime Kenobi's augmented kick against a prime Maul with Maul's mechanical kick against a clearly beaten up Kenobi? Well I guess beggers can't be choosers...

Points for the pun, but you will find it is you who hasn't the leg to stand on.

 

Firstly, you have no proof that Kenobi could actually handle Maul's kicks when uninjured. Whereas he demonstrates a complete inability to do so, and suffers clear injury, when beaten up (which frankly he will become regardless). And fact is Kenobi has demonstrated an inability to handle Maul's punches, so why should we assume he can handle his kicks?

 

After all, he couldn't handle Grievous':

 

And Maul can kick with equal if not greater force, I think you'll find he'll be sustaining some injury.

 

As for this pre-prime Kenobi business, handling the Chosen One's meteoric strikes in (presumable) comparison to failing against Savage is hardly proof of improvement considering that:

 

 

1. Kenobi was able to predict Anakin's every move, making it easy to deflect his attacks, in comparison Savage had the element of surprise, catching Kenobi off-balance, and retains the unfamiliarity.
    
    
   
2. Savage's strikes have proven more powerful than Anakin's, knocking Dooku on his @ss where Anakin has failed, and altogether though less powerful in the Force, has an infinitely superior build.
   

 

And altogether it would be reckless speculation to assume that therefore, he's strong enough to handle Maul and Savage. Fact is he's failed to do so, time over, and we've been given no reason to assume he's been bench pressing.

Furthermore his speed doesn't have to overwhelm Maul, it's the opposite he have to stop. And I think I proved ample evidence that Kenobi won't be overwhelmed by Maul's speed or strength.

Initially? Sure, after taking an ample beating? I don't think so.

Wow your reaching argument just a lot more interesting. So you say jedis can't have weaknesses or strengths? Seriously? Then what about Corran? Awesome Tutaminis, ****** TK. How do you explain that?

Deficiencies have always been made clear, known entities.

 

And yet nowhere is it stated that Kenobi had an innate lack of talent for Force barriers, despite being one of the most major and thoroughly explored character in the SW universe. Perhaps an explanation of that is in order?

Or the fact that Kenobi's endurance, valor, sense, and TK are all in Maul's tier except his barrier? Which one do you think is the odd one out?

This list is in need of slimming.

 

Equal endurance? Absurd. Maul has never succumbed to a few punches, he has never succumbed to pain full stop. He had better endurance than Kenobi before he was 10. And valor? I'm don't need to repeat Maul's trials at the hands of Sidious for a 3rd time, recall them, and provide a comparable feat from Kenobi.

 

And then equal TK? Kenobi's best feats involve Force pushing Grievous. Maul's TK is comparable to Windu.

 

Seems to me that you've decided that Kenobi is a peer to Maul in Force abilities, and are attempting to pick up his obvious slack with conjecture. Kenobi may rival Maul in a few fields, but he's clearly superior overall.

You still haven't said anything compeling how would Maul break Kenobi's Soresu. He's not a lot stronger, or faster, he's not more skilled, he's not more experienced, he's not smarter. Maul's one and only trick is TK, while Kenobi has several.

Only because in so far you've done a fine job of ignoring it, but seeing as you've asked I'll explain, and perhaps you'll at last take note. As the fight progresses Maul will become stronger and stronger as his rage intensifies, while Kenobi will weaken with every physical blow, TK attack or use of the environment against him.

 

The gap between their ability though slim at first, will exponentially increase until Kenobi is simply overpowered. His Soresu a far cry from what it was originally, will be dismantled by Maul's now even stronger Juyo.

 

The clinch point being that while strong and skilled, Kenobi simply isn't skilled or strong enough to quickly overpower Maul with his Ataru, and in attempting to do so will only expend precious energy. In failing to beat him when at peak strength, he will only weaken from then on, sealing his fate as he falls into defense and resulting in the duel, as I said at the beginning, becoming a forgone conclusion. This of course assuming Kenobi isn't drowned first.

[Beniboybling]

Knowing each other 30 times as longer as Savage and Maul hardly compares? Okay....

Hit me with proof they developed a Force bond and I'll consider your argument.

 

However as it stands your baselessly extrapolating the facts.

Exactly, before transformation. Before he became a lot bigger, and encumbered by heavy armor.

Which allowed him to hit harder, and withstand injury all the better, I think the strengths outweigh the weaknesses.

The point is he have to hold back on his strikes, since Maul will be nearby. He can't just do this and get away with it:

I wouldn't say so, just as being able to predict your opponents every move makes it easy to evade him, being any to predict your allies attacks has the same effect. Nonetheless they aren't literally fighting back to back, and here, despite being in a cramped enviroment and with Maul at his side, he is able to use his strength to full effect.

But he never reached mastery of any traditional lightsaber form. Going against a Makashi master like that? Ouch.

Besides the point, being that as a master of the saberstaff, he will prove a handful for even "experienced masters" like Kenobi and Ti, Kenobi who has already had his hands full in the past.

 

However what Savage has is strength-orientated swordplay, Makashi's primary weakness, more on that later.

Well whether he did or not, he did use it to great effect against Savage, Maul, and Anakin.

And Maul and Savage to even greater, I would think.

No you didn't.

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/62265478.jpg

Already did.

Sure thing broski.

Well Maul kicked Kenobi several times and he didn't die, so I guess your claim of superior physique was a lie...

No doubt because he cushioned the blows with the Force, otherwise Maul could one-shot Sidious.

 

However the point stands, if Maul can kill a Jedi with exceptional physique with his kicks, Kenobi is at least going to suffer some broken ribs, to claim otherwise is to be willfully ignorant.

Yet when Maul did TK Kenobi, and they outnumbered him it was Savage who had to walk away with a broken leg and one less arm. I guess Ti will be just wanking under a tree or something in the meantime, right?

Calm down now. I would think she'd be contending with Savage... I'll admit he'd be hard pressed to find an opportunity to ragdoll him, though its far from impossible, but a Force push or repulse will not either exposed.

Awesome, the same is true in reverse:

He would've died if not for Maul. Now add in a Ti to the mix...

Kenobi attacked him from above and behind, catching him by surprise. To replicate that Kenobi would have to attack when Savage was distracted by Ti, breaking off from Maul, while Maul would simply intercept as before.

 

Assuming he somehow gains a height advantage on a level terrain to generate enough force to floor him. And of course assuming that Maul will back off and give him an opportunity as he did there. Seems unlikely.

[Beniboybling]

So now even Ventress has superior stamina to Kenobi? I didn't think you could lowball Kenobi any more than you already have, but you can.

What of it? She's a comparable Force user and has a superior physique.

 

She should therefore have superior stamina.

There's also this

Quoting Wookieepedia is great and all but without a source we are lacking in specifics. You cannot at all be certain that the circumstances of anything it's referencing including being underwater and under significant stress.

 

Using the Force to retain oxygen is all well and good, but useless when Maul is squashing his lungs flat.

Furthermore Kenobi won't just back into the water so with a single push Maul could take the advantage, he'd go parallel to the shore. Then Maul will have to use Force Grab to launch Kenobi deeper into the water. Maul never actually managed to hold Kenobi for a prolonged time. He probably couldn't anyway. Once the surprise is gone, and Kenobi is no longer offguard he could break free with a push.

I don't remember suggesting Maul push Kenobi in, I remember suggesting he grip and throw him straight up.

 

He did that just fine here:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111137054/4254062-tcw+maul+obiwan.gif

 

And here implied he could Force crush him indefinitely, he certainly held him long enough:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111137054/4253755-forcechokeobi-wan.jpg

 

"Slowly, I will crush the life from you Kenobi..."

 

I'm failing to see how he can't manage a simple fling, especially if Kenobi's already taken a beating. Nonetheless your concept of luring seems incomplete, tends to involve retreating with you're back to the objective.

 

Likewise if Maul tries to hold him underwater with his hands or legs he can just use push again.

The biggest contributor to Kenobi being ragdolled is him being caught offgaurd. When isn't though he can defend agaisnt such things:

https://youtu.be/9pI8IkWa3LQ?t=2m2s

That's a Force push, not a ragdoll, when has Kenobi ever blocked being ragdolled? Never. When has Kenobi ever been shown to be distracted before being ragdolled? Never. So what basis do we have for assuming that Maul needs to provide some kind of distraction, like "hey look a flying bantha", in order to ragdoll him? None.

 

Case closed I would think. Maul will ragdoll Kenobi as and when he pleases.

Not to mention he had really strong TK as well:

https://youtu.be/_xP3fI7yn5s?t=3m5s

Not sure how that helps as Maul can still penetrate his Force barriers, however the problem with that feat is that we have nothing to measure it against. It's evident that Kenobi holds his own against Anakin but what does that actually indicate. What if it had been Yoda, Dooku or Maul even? How long would they have lasted?

 

It's undoubtedly an impressive feat but to treat it as an accurate display of ability is to be disingenuous I feel.

[Beniboybling]

The dragonsnake lives in those swamps. Right. There.

Where exactly? The bog is a big place, there is no guarantee he'd be in the vicinity.

Also I wasn't aware that Ti have to look at the beast she tries to control. Can you quote it for me?

So you're employing a no-limits fallacy then? That because the extent of Ti's abilities haven't been made clear, she can do whatever she wants? Wrong I'm afraid. The burden of proof is on you to prove she can, as it's the standard for beast control and indeed Jedi mind tricks of any kind to be in direct contact with their target.

And what do you mean fending off Savage? Savage will have to fend off Ti.

You haven't even proven Ti can use beast control without LOS, let alone that she could sustain an offensive while doing so. I mean really, using a mind trick in the middle of battle? I can't think of a single example, ever.

 

Mind tricks of all kinds have and always required concentration, even gestures. Beast control included:

 

Good. Beasts can be easier to affect than other sentients. But you must bridge the gap between what distinguishes us and them. You feel its thoughts, yes? Like a low rumble before the storm. Use the Force to create a barrier around it - carefully and slowly.

 

--Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic II

Another example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDOvPMFXTrQ&t=0m14s

 

You need to prove Ti is an exception to this rule, evidence that she can do it without LOS, from a distance and while fighting an opponent. What you're doing now is recklessly speculating, and with that approach can justify anything.

So essentially you aren't just saying that Savage & Maul > Ti & Kenobi, but also that Savage & Maul > Ti & Kenobi & Dragonsnake? Which is a 6 meter long predator that will without a doubt catch the brothers offguard. The brothers lost several times by being caught offguard, just sayin'...

It's a lizard. Both Maul and Savage can dispatch it quickly and with ease, and I'd remind you that Maul has dispatched a Wampa and a Varactyl without the Force, he'd snap it's neck with a gesture.

 

Bearing in mind that Maul has an excellent danger sense:

As he surveilled the Neimoidian and his guard, however, Maul felt a small p.rickling of something—not real danger, but a kind of disquiet— touch his awareness. He looked about and listened carefully, but did not see any cause for this. He expanded his consciousness, let the dark currents of the Force extend outward from him— and became aware of another presence behind him, hidden from normal sight and hearing. Probably just another of the many predators in this dreary place, looking for prey. Now that he was aware of the presence, Maul dismissed it. He felt no real concentrations of the Force emanating from the hidden watcher, and thus whoever he was and whatever his reasons for being here, he did not pose a threat.

 

--Taken from Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter

He is after all an assassin trained to physical perfection, and that includes his sense, no lizard is going to get the jump on him. But let's be honest, by the time Ti locates and communes with this creature, Kenobi will be dead.

[Beniboybling]

Are you seriosuly saying that droping your weapong mid combat or falling on your face is not hindrance?

 

Well it's hard to argue with logic like that...

By no means, but there is a difference between a hindrance, and a fatal slip up.

Also you are forgetting something. The brothers repeatedly fallen for the unexpected.

Maul was caught offguard by Kenobi's offense in TPM and he got his saber cut in two. Then he underestimated an unarmed padawan and was caught offguard by his recovery so he got cut in two like his lightsaber. Maul and Savage was caught offguard by Kenobi's Ataru and he sent them packing with a broken leg and a missing arm.

 

In my team I have two of the most cunning, intelligent, resourceful jedi of history. Electronic manipulation or beast control or anything they can cook up can and will catch the brothers offgaurd again. And this time they can't disengage so it very well could be fatal for them.

I assure you I forget nothing, what you're overlooking however is that the ability to suprise is determined by circumstance. You're extracting these examples from their situations and assuming that because it worked there, it will work here to the same, if not greater effect. That's fallacious reasoning, and I've provided ample evidence as to why it will fail in this situation, evidence you've decided to outright ignore, which hardly speaks well for your argument.

 

I've noticed this fallacy cropping up a lot in fact, mostly whenever the term "off-guard" is remotely relevant.

[Beniboybling]

I'd like to pick up the scenario after Kenobi's Sokan happened.

 

So now that Kenobi managed to lure Maul away from Savage and I provided more than one counter to his drowning, the two duel will rage on. I'm sure Ti will finish faster than Maul could with Kenobi because she outclasses Savage in almost every category, while Maul outclasses Kenobi in almost none.

 

I think you're getting ahead of yourself there, if Kenobi survives Maul's attempt to drown him, he'll be in no condition to fight, and your team will succumb to my previous argument. Throwing a dragonsnake into the mix changes nothing, it just wastes time, energy and increases Kenobi's chances of dying.

Ti is more powerful force user, a better duelist, smarter, and more experienced than Savage. Savage's only edge is his physical strength, but Ti is no joke there either. He could send Marek flying with a single strike.

On the other hand Maul is not a better duelist, not smarter, not more experienced than Kenobi. Their powers in the force is also comparable, with the exception that Maul can ragdoll Kenobi.

So Ti have 4 edge over Savage, Savage only has one. Kenobi has 2 edge over Maul, Maul only has one. Not to mention that Kenobi is geared toward prolonged engagement with his unparalleled Soresu, Savage has nowhere the defenses Kenobi has.

Wow, not only have you oversimplified this debate to a bunch of numbers, but you've stripped the Brothers of most of their advantages. Impressive, but you're not convincing anybody.

 

I think my prievous and more extensive argument on the subject i.e. everything, is sufficient counter.

Even Beni acknowledges that Savage has problems with precision strikes. And why wouldn't he? He wasn't properly trained in the traditional lightsaber forms. Ti on the other hand is a master of Makashi. Which is known for it's strength in lightsaber to lightsaber combat, and precision strikes.

Ah but you forget that, as a previously mentioned, Makashi's primary weakness is strength-orientated swordplay. I don't deny the difference in skill but Ti is still disadvantaged in the respect that if she meets Savage with Makashi, she will find her precision attacks shunted aside, and her complex footwork and evasions powered through.

 

And indeed I'd remind you that even the Makashi master himself, Count Dooku, was vulnerable to his style:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111179633/4625056-savage+disarms+dooku.gif

 

I won't dismiss Makashi has ineffective, but it's evident that its effectiveness will be softened. Ti will have to exhaust, frustrate and outmaneuver her opponent before she can properly exploit his weaknesses, and that will take time. Time for Maul to drown Kenobi, or time for Maul to intervene when he senses his Brothers resolve and power weakening.

Also Savage lack of experience might've been the contributor to his loss against Kenobi. If someone can catch Savage offguard it will be the highly intelligent and cunning, not to mention experienced Shaak Ti.

I won't deny the possibility, but I'm not seeing what trick she could pull that would instantly dispatch him, rather a more drawn out strategy of maneuvering him into disadvantageous terrain.

Shaak Ti knows Force Stealth, she can sneak up on Maul, since as far as I know Maul doesn't have substantial sense feat that would suggest he could see through it, especially when he is occupied with Kenobi. After that there are various ways Ti and Kenobi can deal with Maul. He is no match for their combined might, not to mention their ingenuity. If they haven't yet, now Kenobi and Ti can start pulling tricks out of their sleeve. These include Electronic Manipulation, Beast Control, subtle TK, Consitor Sato. Ti could even pick up Savage's saberstaff and use it with a single hand in combination with her standard lightsaber, she used this tactic before

. Eventually Maul will succumb.

 

After that a 3on1 duel is a sure loss for the Count.

I won't waste time humoring you in such a lop-sided debate. But I will point out that in Kenobi's injured and stunned condition, he will drop much much faster than Savage, this situation won't be one Maul finds himself in.

[Selenial]

Beni, no offence, but ignoring all the times Maul and Kenobi faced in canon just so you can over-blow one and underrate the other, to skew the match as much as possible... isn't exactly a convincing argument. Edited August 6, 2015 by Selenial

[Beniboybling]

Beni, no offence, but ignoring all the times Maul and Kenobi faced in canon just so you can over-blow one and underrate the other, to skew the match as much as possible... isn't exactly a convincing argument.

I can't imagine what I'm overlooking, Kenobi hasn't exactly scored any hits against Maul in their two engagements... Edited August 6, 2015 by Beniboybling