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SWTOR Duelling Tournament - Heats/Round 2A: Team Aurbere vs Team Jarons

Beniboybling

By Beniboybling
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Aurbere

Aurbere

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It was my intention for this tournament to be my return to the forums and debating in general. After a steady decline, I have refined my methods and broadened my knowledge. To quote:

 

As this is my grand return, I intend for it to be grand. As such, lengthy post incoming.

 

I will begin by responding to your post, Jarons. Let's begin.

 

To start, I will say that I fully disagree with your chosen match-ups. While I congratulate you on believing that it is a set of matches you can win, it is unlikely that these matches will occur. Additionally, as I will endeavor to show here, it is not a set of matches that you can win. Allow me to elaborate…

 

IG-88 vs Darth Malgus

 

IG-88 vs Darth Malgus: IG-88 is the most accomplished and deadliest assassin droid in the Mythos.With IG-88 vast array of weaponry and incredible Speed he will be able to Hold off Malgus for some time.Notice I said hold of Malgus, IG-88 does not need to kill Darth Malgus he just need to last 10-20 Seconds for Starkiller to Destroy HK-47 and run over to Join him on the fight.After that It will be a 2V1 against Malgus and Malgus won't be able to cope with both Opponents.

 

Your thesis paints an interesting picture. However, I completely disagree with your assessment. It is far more likely that Malgus will destroy IG-88 with his Force powers as soon as possible, which he has a penchant for doing. Now to address the rest of your thoughts here.

 

 

Speed

 

IG-88 can move at amazing speed that he appears as a blur to his targets.Other than Jedi or Sith only IG been reported to move just as Fast.So IG-88 will be able to Match or at least keep up with the other Force user on his team without being a hindrance by slowing down Starkiller and Cade who are to extremely fast individuals.IG-88 can also use his blurring speed to dodge Malgus strikes and even break free from some of his Force attacks.

 

Here is some showing of his speed and fast processing power .

 

As the first technician-Target Number One- lunged for the emergency alarm, IG-88 moved with blurring speed to the component lab table.

-Taken from I think, therefore I am.

 

IG-88 Can move at blurring speeds.Some HK won't possible be able to compete with.

 

He snatched up a disconnected droid arm. With its metal fingers, it made the perfect projectile weapon. He scanned the surface of the metal limb, calculated a flight path and expected deviation due to air resistance, then hurled it like a spear.

- Taken from I think, therefore I am.

 

IG-88 decided to accelerate his clock speed, to watch the events unfolding at the rate humans operated.

-Taken from I think, therefore I am.

 

IG-88 can change how fast he perceives the world.

 

IG-88 will be able to use his Incredible speed to stay away from Malgus While Pelleting him with Blaster Fire from Far away.

 

Your argument is based around the idea that because IG-88 can move at blurring speed to humans, he can outpace Malgus. However, not only is ‘moving as a blur’ a generic speed accolade, but Malgus has a similar speed accolade as well, moving so fast a non Force user could barely follow him:

 

She and Darth Malgus bounded across the ruins of the Temple, their blades flashing, locking, the speed of their duel so fast Zeerid could barely follow their movement. Despite himself, he found the combat beautiful.
—Deceived

 

Additionally, he has moved fast enough to kill six soldiers before they could even react as

.

 

Malgus has a plethora of additional speed feats, but these should suffice to suggest that Malgus is easily comparable if not superior to IG-88 in terms of speed. His other feats would be used to show his outright superiority in this regard, of course. Moving on…

 

I would respond to your strength argument, but I really don’t see Malgus grabbing IG and trying to beat him with his bare hands. So I’ll move on to the durability arguments.

 

Durability/Reaction time

 

IG-88 is extremely hard to kill and even damaged.He will be able to dodge and even tank a few of Malgus Lightsaber strikes before showing signs of Serious damage.He has multiple showings of him tanking Blaster Fire and explosives.

 

He strode down the dark corridor, knowing that even now the target would be rallying his defenses, setting up ambushes along the way. But IG-88 knew the path he must take. Blueprints of the stronghold as well as locations of weapons emplacements and comple-ments of mercenary guards had been on Grlubb's datadisk.

 

From a fortified cul-de-sac, five guards began firing at him with blaster rifles. Their bolts spanged off IG-88's duraplated armor. No simple energy weapon could damage him unless the beam struck exactly the right spot-only a few of IG-88's original designers knew such vulnerabilities, and most of those designers had been slaughtered at the Holowan Laboratories' massacre.

-I think, Therefore I am

 

He tanking multiple blaster shots with no damage, only specific hits could damage him and only a few of the original designers knew the locations of those spots.

 

IG-88 crashed through the rest of the wall, then scanned for three seconds, analyzing the containment systems and cataloging the inventory of deadly toxins. Finished, he calculated the best way to release them all.

-I think, Therefore I am

 

He crashed through a wall and showed no signs of physical damaged.

 

Chief Technician Loruss -Target Number Two- yanked a high-powered laser rifle from her station. Being one of his primary designers, she knew exactly where to fire at IG-88, and he was momentarily concerned. She must have kept the weapon at hand just in case one of her creations went renegade. This showed surprising forethought.

 

Loruss pointed the rifle and fired without hesitation-but a human’s aiming capabilities were not as sophisticated as IG-88′s.

 

As the bolt roared toward him, IG-88 assessed his body parts, chose the smooth reflective portion on the palm of his left hand, and raised it in a flash, calculating the precise angle of incidence. The burning laser bolt struck the mirrorized hand and sprang back toward Loruss. The beam struck her in the center of her bald forehead, and her skull popped in an explosion of wet black-and-red smoke. She tumbled.

He blocked/deflected blaster bolts.Only Jedi have shown the ability to do this before.

 

Regarding IG-88’s ability to sustain blunt force damage, Malgus has him utterly outclassed in this regard. During the Battle of Alderaan, Malgus suffered

. Not only did he survive, but he went on to kill two powerful Jedi before receiving medical attention (Quotes to come in a later post). Additionally, the ability to tank blaster bolts is not indicative of one’s ability to tank lightsaber blades. Many metals can withstand impacts from blaster bolts, but are easily cut to pieces by lightsabers. Considering that many an IG droid have been cut down by lightsabers, it is, in my opinion, safe to say that IG-88 would not simply brush it off.

 

I will address Malgus vs IG-88 further in your Starkiller vs HK-47 argument. Speaking of which:

 

 

Starkiller vs HK-47

 

 

HK-47 is a Jedi/Sith killer but whenever he faced one he had Prep time and knowledge of his Opponents.Here he has no prep no knowledge of his Opponents or their capabilities and 2 previous masters to pay attention to.This combine with Starkillers lightening and intense Saber combat abilities he will be able to stomp HK-47 in less then 10 seconds.I believe this to be the case since he will be on his back foot the entire time and not be able to adept to Starkiller skills before he is destroyed.

 

What I find most disappointing is the intense lack of respect for HK-47 here. I’ll address it from the top.

 

HK-47 is a Jedi/Sith killer but whenever he faced one he had Prep time and knowledge of his Opponents.Here he has no prep no knowledge of his Opponents or their capabilities and 2 previous masters to pay attention to

 

Proof of prep time? HK-47 outright says not to prepare for engagements with Force users:

 

Explanation: Statistically, overplanning the assassination of a Jedi seems to backfire.

 

Extrapolation: There are many theorists who claim Jedi can see the future, and I do not know if that is true, but it seems impulsive acts are more common to succeed than planned incidents."

 

"Jedi, like sand-kivers, seem to sense trouble a few seconds before it happens. They are tricky little pests."

—HK-47 to the Jedi Exile

 

This combine with Starkillers lightening and intense Saber combat abilities he will be able to stomp HK-47 in less then 10 seconds

 

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2014/105/8/2/disappointed___gif__by_themischiefmonster-d7ej23k.gif

 

HK-47 is a veteran Jedi Killer with a plethora of weaponry and equipment that can allow him to defend himself for a time. Observe:

 

"You killed Jedi?"

"Answer: Yes, master. It wasn't always easy, and I had to adapt quickly to rapidly changing battle conditions. And they would often sever my limbs and my head from my torso, which was an inconvenience."

"It sounds like you killed a lot of them."

"Answer: Oh, yes, master. I hope none of them were friends of yours. But really, they had it coming. I do not know when the Jedi ceased to be adherents to their code, but many did not tread cautiously, and many were quite arrogant when facing a droid, as if we were somehow beneath them. It gave certain kills an added pleasure when being underestimated."

—The Exile and HK-47

 

“Recitation: First, weapon selection is critical. If I see one more idiot attacking a Jedi with a blaster pistol, then I’ll kill them myself.

"What weapons would you suggest?"

"Answer: Select grenades, sonic screamers, cluster rockets, and plasma charges. Mines are also effective, since many Jedi will run to meet you in hand to hand combat. Silly Jedi."

"Addendum: Gas attacks are effective if you can take the Jedi by surprise - inhalation is less effective than ones that work on skin contact, as some Jedi seem able to hold their breath for long periods of time."

"Cautionary: Still, don't rely on it, since Jedi can fight off the effects, it just distracts them, leaving them open to another avenue of attack."

"Any defenses you would suggest?"

"Recitation: Do not forget to activate any energy shields you possess. Lightsabers, while powerful, have trouble penetrating most military issue energy shields - provided they are energy shields and not those crude Mandalorian melee shields."

 

I believe this to be the case since he will be on his back foot the entire time and not be able to adept to Starkiller skills before he is destroyed.

 

Countered above, but I’ll repost here:

 

Answer: Yes, master. It wasn't always easy, and I had to adapt quickly to rapidly changing battle conditions.

 

HK has killed many Jedi and Sith. Adapting to the changing battle is something the droid is more than capable of doing.

 

Regardless, I am detecting a very unfortunate double standard here. You went to great lengths to show IG-88’s ability to contend with Malgus, yet outright disregard HK-47’s reputation as a Jedi Killer and suggest that the droid would be stomped in 10 seconds flat. In fact, IG-88 has never fought a Force user to my knowledge and the one time it encountered Force powers, it was completely unaware of what it was dealing with:

 

As the Emperor approached the sliding doorway, however? just for fun?IG-88 triggered the hydraulic systems to slam the doors in front of Palpatine's face, sealing them shut. The Emperor blinked his yellow eyes in surprise and reared back. In consternation, Palpatine tried to open the turbolift doors, punching a useless override button. Then, to IG-88's surprise, he applied some indefinable, intangible force to push the metal plates apart, requiring IG-88 to increase the hold on the hydraulic pistons.

 

To suggest that IG-88 would be able to adapt to powers it has never encountered before while also saying that the veteran Jedi and Sith killer could not (despite all evidence to the contrary) is a faulty argument that falls flat and is simply a double standard on your part.

 

Additionally, Malgus himself has a penchant for destroying opponents with his Force powers quickly without the need to engage them in martial combat. Numerous accounts can be found in the Sacking of the Jedi Temple alone:

 

Another Jedi stepped in front of him, blue blade held high. Malgus barely saw him. He simply extended a hand, pushed through the Jedi’s insufficient defenses, seized his throat with the Force, and choked him to death.
—Deceived

 

Malgus, not to be outdone, picked a Jedi Knight at random, a human female ten meters away, held forth his left hand, and discharged veins of blue lightning from his fingertips. The jagged lines of energy cut a swath through the battle, harvesting two Padawans as they went, until they caught up to the Jedi Knight and lifted her off her feet.

 

She screamed as the lightning ripped into her, her flesh made temporarily translucent from the dark power coursing through her. Malgus savored her pain as she died.

—Deceived

 

Malgus drew on the Force and with a blast of power drove the Padawan across the hall and into one of the towering columns of stone, where she collapsed, blood leaking from her nose. Eleena continued firing, her eyes darting here and there over the battlefield as she sought targets.
—Deceived

 

This is but three moments where Malgus simply destroyed an opponent with his Force powers instead of engaging them in lightsaber combat. In this case, he easily destroyed several Jedi. Since IG-88 is both not a Jedi and is a ranged fighter, Malgus would have no issue with taking the droid out at range quickly and effectively.

 

Previously, you mentioned that IG-88’s speed would allow him to escape Force attacks. His inexperience with the Force certainly suggests otherwise. Additionally, since when has speed allowed one to escape a Force Grip or Crush?

 

If you are going to assume that Starkiller can destroy a renowned Jedi Killer in seconds, then you should accept that the same would happen to the relatively inexperienced IG-88 as well.

 

Considering that the crux of your argument seems to be based around a domino effect, the failing of IG-88 against Malgus and HK’s abilities suggests that it is not something that can work.

 

Additionally, while I see the merits in your Starkiller vs Malgus argument, I completely disagree with it. While I intend to use a second post to cast aside the illusions surrounding Starkiller, there are some points I must contend with:

 

 

Starkiller vs Malgus

 

 

Starkiller has many accolades that puts him miles ahead of Malgus.

 

https://youtu.be/MhnY8pU3rFc?t=20s

 

Let’s hope you back it up…

 

Shaak TI states that Galen's power is prodigious:

 

“Your strength is prodigious,” she admitted, “but that is your doing"

-- The Force Unleashed

 

Galen's power increased more than once throughout the novel:

 

All thought ceased; his connection to the Force became deeper than it ever had been before.

-- The Force Unleashed

 

“I’m not wearing out,” he said. “The moorings were tough, but I feel stronger than ever now. It gets easier, I think, the harder you try. The Force is stronger than anything we can imagine. We’re the ones who limit it, not the other way around.”

-- The Force Unleashed

 

As a child, Galen Marek was stated to be far more powerful than his father:

 

“I sense someone far more powerful than you nearby. Your Master … Where is he?”

-- The Force Unleashed

 

Bail Organa is impressed by Galen's feats and states that he had never seen anyone like him since the Clone Wars:

 

In the end she did as she had done with Kota: tell the truth, but not the whole truth. “Your guess is as good as mine, I’m afraid,” she said. “He keeps himself to himself. This may sound strange to you, but I don’t even know his real name.”

 

“That does sound a little unusual, but I’ve heard of stranger arrangements.” He assayed half a smile, then let it drop. “The feats he accomplished back there showed outstanding strength. I haven’t seen anyone like him since the Clone Wars—and that’s not necessarily a good thing. Such power, unchecked, can be dangerous. The dark side feeds on a taste for power. It can be deadly for those caught in the way—as a young learner discovered today, very nearly at the cost of her life.”

-- The Force Unleashed

 

Vader's apprentice was both strong in the Force and incredibly aggressive. As a teenager, the apprentice was already more powerful than many Jedi Knights had been during the Clone Wars, and it was only Darth Vader's incredible power and skill that allowed him to defeat the boy in combat.

-- The Force Unleashed Campaign Guide

 

This was Galen Marek his clone was far stronger.He defeated highly regarded Jedi masters before his Prime and Vader considered him to be stronger than many Jedi Knights of the PT Era as a teen.

 

Indeed, this is Galen Marek. So why are you using quotes for Galen’s power? Quotes regarding Starkiller’s power are far more relevant, especially since these accolades do very little for you. Now, regarding your apparent lack of knowledge on Malgus’ accolades, I think having feats that have never been duplicated and being one of the greatest warriors in the Sith Empire as a mere apprentice suggests that those accolades you’ve posted so far are not ‘miles’ better than Malgus’:

 

Malgus submitted utterly to the dark side, and doing so made him an exemplary warrior. His battlefield feats have never been duplicated.
--Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side

 

Even before the Great War, Malgus was widely regarded as one of the greatest warriors in the Sith Empire.
--The Old Republic Encyclopedia

 

Considering that many of the finest warriors in the Empire (namely Darth Marr and Darth Decimus among others) could rout anything from battalions of troops to entire armies, the latter accolade is not something to turn one’s nose up at.

 

Starkiller has better accolades, obviously. So why not post those? Why use Galen's accolades when your suggestion that Starkiller > Galen is unsupported in your post?

 

He is also forced to use a Respirator to breath.

 

False. The respirator is not required for him to breathe. It facilitates breathing, but Malgus can and has removed the respirator before:

 

“I love you, Malgus.” She peeled away his respirator to reveal the ruins of his mouth. “Do you love me?”

 

He licked his scarred lips, his thoughts whirling, again no words coming.

—Deceived

 

Notably, Malgus’ respirator was knocked aside in combat with Ven Zallow, but that didn’t seem to affect him much at all:

 

Master Zallow’s blow to Malgus’s face had knocked his respirator aside and Aryn could see the Sith’s scarred, deformed lips. He mouthed words to Master Zallow as Master Zallow died. Aryn read his lips, whispered the words.

 

“It’s all going to burn.”

—Deceived

 

*snip about TK and lightning*

 

While I am not saying Malgus Is pushover and did not fight powerful Opponents but what I am saying is he will not be able to stop the onslaught brought on by Starkillers powerful force abilities.

 

This I will address in another post, which I intend to use to cast aside illusions about Starkiller’s Force powers.

 

 

Cade Skywalker vs Revan

 

 

With everyone already having a Dance Partner.Only person for Cade and Revan to fight is each other.Cade could defeat Revan alone but Cade does not need to win this battle alone. Cade needs to hold off Revan long enough for Starkiller and IG-88 to defeat Malgus and together defeat Revan.Before the 3v1 battle occurs I believe that Cade and his team will fall back before attacking Revan. Cade will more than likely Heal any wounds he and Starkiller might have acquired during their battles.Once they're all back to fighting shape they will push on Revan.

 

Well, at least you accept Cade’s inferiority. I will endeavor, then, to show Revan’s complete superiority to the young Skywalker and why he will not be able to contend.

 

Cade has many Accolades putting him close to a Revan level force user.With his skills he will be able to hold off Revan until his Cavalry arrives.

 

“Cade, the Force is too powerful in you to just walk away! Healing me like you did was not something you were taught, you did that by instinct alone!”

―Star Wars: Legacy 6: Broken (Wolf Sazen)

 

“Yes, and yet you have brought me knowledge greater than your failure, there is a Skywalker. And he is powerful in the Force... he is very powerful indeed.

―Star Wars: Legacy 7: Broken (Darth Krayt)

 

“You’re a Skywalker, the Force runs strong in your family.”

―Star Wars: Legacy 11: Ghosts (Mara Jade Skywalker)

 

“You cannot deny your power in the Force!”

―Star Wars: Legacy 11: Ghosts (Darth Vader)

 

“Of all my learners, you always had the greatest potential.”

―Star Wars: Legacy 11: Ghosts (K'Kruhk)

 

“Darth Talon brought word of another healer – one whose name provokes both admiration and dread. I had thought, hoped, that this bloodline was dead.”

―Star Wars: Legacy 14: Claws of the Dragon (Darth Wyyrlok III)

 

"You have great raw power."

―Star Wars: Legacy 17: Claws of the Dragon (Darth Krayt)

 

“This one. He is strong enough. Let go and you can be free…”

―Star Wars: Legacy 29: Vector (Karness Muur)

 

Generic ‘you are powerful’ accolades are enough to make Cade close to a Revan-level Force user? Huh?

 

Revan has accolades of far greater significance. He has accolades ranking more powerful than some of the most powerful Force users in history. He has accolades marking his as the strongest Force user during the Jedi Order’s peak in power. Need I list them? If you insist:

 

"In battle after battle, Revan had led the Jedi and Republic forces to victory. Realizing defeat was inevitable, Mandalore the Ultimate had challenge Revan to single combat, and Revan had accepted. Though the Mandalorian fought valiantly, in the end he was no match for the Jedi Order's most powerful champion."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

 

“Even more so than in the Clone Wars, these are the days of the Jedi in their prime.”
—Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

 

“During this time, the Jedi Order is at the summit of its power and self-confidence.”

--Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

 

Indeed, Revan’s weakest incarnation (in my opinion, at least) was already the most powerful Jedi during the Order’s peak. Later, Revan would defeat Darth Malak, one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history:

 

"Malak sees Lord Revan as soft, resulting in a tension that culminates in a lightsaber duel; Malak loses his lower jaw to Revan's blade, necessitating a metallic jaw guard."

―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

 

"Many of the most powerful, terrifying, and notorious Sith Lords through history have been Human or near-Human, including Exar Kun, Darth Malak, Darth Bane, Darth Sidious, Darth Vader, and Darth Krayt."

―Behind the Threat: The Sith

 

Revan in his lesser incarnations is already one of the most powerful Force users ever. And these few accolades posted far exceed Cade’s accolades, which are not exactly spectacular in comparison. Suffice to say, there really is nothing to suggest Cade is near to Revan based on these accolades. Moving on…

 

Cade Skywalker has very impressive Combat feats and Accolades.He has defeated the Strongest Sith of his Era.Like Darth Krayt and both of his hands Darth Nihil and Darth Talon.

 

I take no issue with your postings on shatterpoint and Dark Transfer, but I do with this. You are correct that he defeated these individuals. But what I take most issue with is that you seem to be passing off that Cade is superior to Darth Krayt. If you review the fight, which I will provide, that is most certainly not the case:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/square_avatar/11114/111140132/4236087-jedi+cade+vs+darth+krayt+%281o6%29.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/square_avatar/11114/111140132/4236088-jedi+cade+vs+darth+krayt+%282o6%29.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/square_avatar/11114/111140132/4236089-jedi+cade+vs+darth+krayt+%283o6%29.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/square_avatar/11114/111140132/4236090-jedi+cade+vs+darth+krayt+%284o6%29.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/square_avatar/11114/111140132/4236091-jedi+cade+vs+darth+krayt+%285o6%29.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/square_avatar/11114/111140132/4236093-jedi+cade+vs+darth+krayt+%286o6%29.jpg

 

Evidently, unless I’m missing some scans, Cade was definitely not on Krayt’s level and only bested him in a manner similar to how Quinlan Vos killed Sora Bulq. You can push for Cade over Nihl and Talon, obviously, but not Krayt. Moving on…

 

Telekinesis

 

"On Vendaxa, Cade Skywalker used his powers to drop a huge section of a ruined starship on Talon, who called for backup in the form of Darth Nihl."

―The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...+%283o3%29.jpg

 

Cade was able to Dominate Darth Talon with his Impressive Telekinesis abilities.

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...arth+talon.jpg

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...domination.jpg

 

Cade also have impressive Force push abilities he has put several Force user on their backs with this ability.

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...e+tk+talon.jpg

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...este+morne.jpg

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...al+knights.jpg

 

I would have addressed your combat abilities section, but that’s really just feat spamming and isn’t consequential to the match right now.

 

Revan surpasses all of these with but a single feat. Observe.

 

Revan blows back several Force users simultaneously while also summoning a storm of lightning and creating a whirlwind. Cade’s telekinetic abilities are, evidently, outclassed in comparison.

 

Force Speed

 

Cade used his force speed abilities to get an edge on multiple Opponents and even turn the tides of battles.

 

Here he dodges blaster fire from multiple directions with incredible Athleticism while chasing Issen the Butcher of Dacc.

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...de+respect.jpg

 

Cade Skywalker can match the speed of Revan if not move faster then him.He can move his lightsaber at blurring speeds where skilled Duelist have trouble keeping up.Cade will use incredible speed to keep Revan from using his Force powers and even keep him on the defense.

 

@Underlined

 

For real, though. What? Some blaster deflection and moving your lightsaber in a blur (which, btw, is as generic as you can get in comics) is enough to say that Cade can match Revan’s speed or move faster than him? Revan’s speed is actually much more impressive when you take the time to analyze his feats. For this, I will highlight Revan’s battle with the Coalition force on Yavin IV.

 

In order to appreciate the impressiveness of this feat, regardless of the outcome, one must consider the nature of the battle in its entirety. What we have is a lone warrior engaging a force of the galaxy’s greatest warriors, most of whom are elite Force users. Revan fought the Grand Master of the Jedi Order, the de facto leader of the Sith Empire, any one of the PCs (aka any one of the best warriors in the galaxy), one of the finest Mandalorian warriors, one of the best SIS agents (who has experience with powerful Sith Lords), and Jakarro (but no one cares about him). Not only does he engage this team, but he consistently dominates them with the Force and survives the battle. Heck, it’s even possible that he would have won if not for the Spirit of Revan intervening, provided you interpret the Force Destruction stage’s mechanics as the spirit assisting the team. Additionally, we know he was there because of the Temple of Sacrifice battle.

 

Regardless, the ability to engage such a number of elite warriors simultaneously in combat requires incredible speed in order to not simply be run over. Marr himself has an incredible speed feat where he appears to teleport to the eyes of a Darth, as seen here:

 

"Marr approached her with slow, deliberate steps, hands resting on the small of his back. Her master never rushed, always maintained an appearance of control. "I sense a similar hunger for power in you. Do not bother denying it."

"I see no reason to."

In an instant, he was gone. Her nostrils flared slightly as she tried to sense his presence.

"You believe you have earned that power, but you are mistaken," his voice thundered behind her."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic: The Price of Power

 

Satele is also an incredibly fast warrior, as she displays quite a few times:

 

She eliminates several Sith Warriors before they can even provide a combat response (as a Jedi Knight, no less):

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_small/11114/111140132/4433903-6694146671-43846.gif

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_small/11114/111140132/4433904-1789308901-43846.gif

 

And she astonishes a Sith with her speed:

 

"The Grand Master had impressed with more than her telekinetic and telepathic skills. Her speed and decisiveness in combat were unbelievable-but she never once made a sound. Her face was calm, almost serene, as she slashed and hacked through the hexes. There was a tranquility about her, almost a blissfulness, that spoke of an intimacy with violence Ax had not expected. To the Sith, violence was an art form. To Master Satele, it seemed like life itself."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Fatal Alliance

 

Now, let’s consider another variable for a moment: Battle Meditation. During the conflict, Satele applied Battle Meditation to greatly bolster the combat abilities of her teammates. To give an example of the effects that Satele’s Battle Meditation would logically have on the team, consider the example or Worror Dowmat:

 

It had been many years since Farfalla had fought while empowered by Worror's battle meditation. He had forgotten how much quicker and stronger the Ithorian's amazing talent made him feel. The Force flowed through him with greater power, filling him with its might.
—Rule of Two

 

Considering that Satele is logically more powerful than Worror, it’s logical to assume that her abilities would be just as potent as Worror’s, if not even better. Additionally, Satele’s heritage suggests her superiority as well. Considering it is suggested that Satele’s Battle Meditation greatly enhanced the team’s combat abilities, I’m inclined to agree. Thus, we have an entire team of the galaxy’s finest with their combat abilities greatly increased. And yet, Revan contends and survives. The ability to deal with incredibly fast warriors and countless ranged attacks requires far more speed than create some blurs with the lightsaber.

 

What this demonstrates is that Revan, by virtue of being superior to Marr since it required Marr and the team to take him on, that Revan’s speed is much greater than a few blurs with the lightsaber. It is highly likely that Revan completely outpaced Marr, even when the latter was empowered by Battle Meditation. To suggest that Cade is on that level based off of an artistic liberty that is applied to nearly every Force user is folly.

 

Regardless, Revan possesses many other speed feats that I will address should you contest this point, as I intend to apply this elsewhere as well. With that said, I’ll move on to your assessment of Cade vs Revan:

 

Cade Skywalker VS Revan

 

Cade Skywalker has many abilities he can use against Revan to hold him off until backup arrives.He can use shatterpoint to find weaknesses in Revan forms and abilities. Then press those weaknesses with his powerful Force push and lightening abilities.He can quickly follow up with his blurring lightsaber strikes to out Malgus on the back foot.Revan will probably counter but with Cade shatterpoint he will be able to see the worst of it and adjust accordingly.They can to tell you this is exchange until Cade reinforcements arrives and they can finish off Revan.

 

This is flatly wrong. So I’ll address it one bit at a time.

 

Cade Skywalker has many abilities he can use against Revan to hold him off until backup arrives

 

He cannot. He is outclassed as a Force user in every way, sans healing, which will do him no good in combat with Revan. Cade’s telekinetic abilities, his speed, and his lightning (which you never mentioned, really) are all inferior to Revan’s powers, as I so aptly demonstrated above (I'll address lightning at another time or when you do).

 

He can use shatterpoint to find weaknesses in Revan forms and abilities.

 

Proof? The ability to see the weaknesses in a person’s physical form (which is the only time that Cade is noted to have applied the technique) is different from seeing the weaknesses in an individual’s form. Provide proof, and I’ll consider it.

 

Then press those weaknesses with his powerful Force push and lightening abilities.He can quickly follow up with his blurring lightsaber strikes to out Malgus on the back foot.Revan will probably counter but with Cade shatterpoint he will be able to see the worst of it and adjust accordingly.They can to tell you this is exchange until Cade reinforcements arrives and they can finish off Revan.

 

Even if Cade could detect Revan’s weaknesses in ability and skill, exploiting them is completely different. You need to provide proof that Cade’s shatterpoint will allow him to do this. It manifests differently for different Force users, and Cade, to my knowledge, hasn’t applied it to see the weaknesses of others in the context of skill and power. Moving on…

 

Cade Skywalker, IG-88,Starkiller VS Revan

 

This battle will end in a 3v1 battle.

 

 

Your entire argument is based entirely on a domino effect. But you haven’t really supported it. Most of your post is simply a collection of quotes, with each section ending in a brief paragraph where you suggest that the quotes posted will allow your agenda to come to pass. You haven’t developed an actual argument. Essentially, you have posted a respect thread with a brief argument to supplement. But your arguments lack proof. Further, you applied the use of double standards to fit your argument. For example:

 

Your section on IG-88 vs Malgus suggests that IG-88 will last for a time against Malgus, but you ignore that Malgus has the Force. On the other end, you suggest that HK-47 will get stomped practically immediately because of Starkiller’s Force powers. The point is that you haven’t provided proof that IG can tank Malgus’ Force powers and you are under the impression that Malgus will go for melee combat instead of using the Force. You suggest that Starkiller can just stomp HK with the Force and his skills, while also saying that IG-88 will brush off lightsaber strikes and ‘escape’ Malgus’ powers, despite IG having no experience fighting a Force user and having no idea what the Force is. It’s a double standard. Simple as that.

 

 

Your argument for a domino effect simply isn’t plausible here, and that is why your argument falls on its face. And with that said, I’ll end this post here. Expect my own post to show my team's superiority in full, as well as my counter to Starkiller in the future.

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Aurbere

Aurbere

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I promised a post that would hopefully cast aside illusions about Starkiller, so here it is.

 

The argument that Starkiller can simply use his massive raw Force power to overwhelm Revan or Malgus is, unfortunately, a faulty argument. It has basis in logic, of course. Starkiller has blown up a frigate, after all. What does Revan or Malgus have on that? Not much, actually. However, the reason it is faulty is because Starkiller has never applied this level of power in combat with an opposing Force user. He has never simply annihilated Force users with sheer Force power, even when driven to a rage. Indeed, if the argument can be made that Revan and Malgus don’t have comparable Force feats, the same could be said for Vader. Despite that, Starkiller didn’t simply annihilate Vader on the spot, despite having every intention of killing him. For reference, I have provided the duel between them in its entirety (sans non-combat related content) below:

 

(Apologies for any grammar mistakes. A 5,000 word excerpt is exhausting to write :p)

 

 

The sound of another lightsaber echoed off the metal and glass surfaces around him.

 

"You have returned."

 

Starkiller looked around. He couldn't pinpoint the origin of his former Master's voice.

 

"As you see," he said, moving slowly forward in a confident but wary stance.

 

"It was only a matter of time."

 

"Where is Juno?" he asked. The last he had seen of her, she had been on the roof of the spire. She could have been moved anywhere since then.

 

A dark figure lunged at him from the shadows. Starkiller blocked a powerful slash to his head, and retaliated with a double sweep to Darth Vader's legs. The Dark Lord leapt upward, out of reach of his weapons, and Starkiller followed.

 

When he landed on the first platform, Darth Vader was nowhere to be seen.

 

Something moved to his right. He spun to face it, lightsabers upraised.

 

A slender form stepped out of the shadows.

 

"I knew you'd come," said Juno, smiling. "At last, we are together again. "

 

Almost, he lowered his weapons. It was her. She held out her arms to embrace him. He longed to run to her. But an instinct told him something was wrong.

 

A flash of memory-a memory of a vision-came to him. He had seen a vision of Juno on the bridge of the Salvation, when the bounty hunter had captured her. Everything about that vision had come true, right down to the last detail. PROXY had been taken out, along with her canid second in command. She herself had been shot in the shoulder.

 

This Juno was uninjured.

 

"Stay back," he said, tightening his defenses.

 

Juno's smile faded. Her arms came down. When she moved, she did so with a speed that wasn't human, reaching behind her back with both hands to produce two Q2 hold-out blasters. With blank-faced, depersonalized lethality, she came for him, firing both blasters at once.

 

Starkiller deflected the shots right back at her, and she staggered backward with a cry. Then he was on her, bisecting her abdomen with his left lightsaber and taking her head off at the neck with his right.

 

As the body fell in pieces to the metal floor, showering sparks, Starkiller stood over her, breathing heavily.

 

The illusion died, revealing the wreckage of a PROXY droid at his feet.

 

"It's a lot easier to fight the Empire when it's faceless," he heard her say from the past, "when the people whose lives are ending are hidden behind stormtrooper helmets or durasteel hulls. But when they're people we knew, people like we used to be... "

 

He spun, catching the faintest echo of an in-drawn, artificial breath from behind him, and caught Darth Vader's lightsaber on the downstroke. They stood that way, locked blade-to-blade, for a moment, and then Starkiller pushed the Dark Lord back. He swept one lightsaber on a rising arc that would have taken off Darth Vader's left arm while the other he flicked sideways, hoping to catch his opponent in the chest unit.

 

Vader blocked both blows, then leapt a second time, the next platform up.

 

"How much harder is it going to get?"

 

Starkiller scowled.

 

"Are you having second thoughts?" he had asked Juno that same day-the day after he had seen the vision of his father on Kashyyyk. Her answer had been immediate: No. But he had sensed an uneasiness within her, just as his former Master had sensed uneasiness within him shortly afterward. Their loyalties were being tested. Principles, too. Such testing was never easy.

 

Darth Vader was playing a very obvious game now. Starkiller could see it, and he would not be deflected from his course.

 

He jumped to the second level, and there came face-to-face with Bail Organa, then Kota, then Mon Mothma, then Garm Bel Iblis. When all the leaders of the Rebel Alliance lay dead at his feet, their droid bodies exposed beneath treacherous holograms, Darth Vader attacked again. His blows were swift and economical, and the threat no less than it had ever been, but Starkiller sensed more was to come. Darth Vader would kill him, yes, without hesitation, but he would rather turn him first.

 

On the fourth level, he came face-to-face with his own father, and struck him down without hesitation. Dreams and memories had no power over him anymore.

 

He spun to face the attack he had come to expect from the real Darth Vader, full of confidence and surety. The Dark Lord fell back under his blows, and this time, when he leapt for safety, Starkiller telekinetically pulled him back down. His former Master sprawled before him, lightsaber raised defensively. He slashed the hand holding it away, and then plunged his second lightsaber deep into his chest.

 

With a gasping, wheezing moan, Darth Vader fell back and dissolved into another PROXY droid.

 

Unsurprised, Starkiller stepped back and looked around for the real Darth Vader. He could see or hear nothing, but his senses tingled with an acute and insistent message.

 

Above him.

 

He somersaulted upward and landed in a crouch, ready for anything.

 

"You are confident," said Darth Vader. "That will be your downfall. "

 

The Dark Lord was standing out of Starkiller's reach. Instead of attacking, he gestured at the rows of cloning tanks beside him. Lights flickered on inside them, revealing row after row of identical forms. Clad in stripped-down version of his former training suit and attached via tubes to complex feeders and breathers, they hung weightlessly in transparent fluid, twitching occasionally in their sleep.

 

Starkiller felt a shock of recognition jolt through him. These weren't stormtroopers. They were him. Incomplete, and oddly- warped from true, but definitely him.

 

Vader gestured again, and the clones' eyes opened.

 

In them Starkiller saw nothing but hatred, anger, confusion, betrayal, madness, and loss.

 

Their glass cages shattered. Amniotic fluid boiled away. They pulled free from their cables and tubes and, with motions faltering at first but quickly growing stronger, climbed free from the wreckage.

 

Starkiller stood his ground as a circle of failed clones formed around him.

 

Behind them Darth Vader nodded once.

 

The clones came forward in one overwhelming rush.

 

[…]

 

Starkiller fought as he had never fought before. Clones-his clones, nightmarishly imperfect but powerful all the same- pressed in on all sides. Darth Vader's vile conditioning had a profound hold on their immature psychologies. The desire to kill consumed their thoughts. It was all they radiated. Together they could easily have turned on their creator and overpowered him. Instead they were driven to destroy their own.

 

Nor their own. Just him. Whether he was the original Starkiller, as Kota believed, or simply the best copy to dare didn't matter. He was their target, and they used every power they possessed to bring him down.

 

On Kashyyyk he had fought a vision of himself, and won.

 

On Dagobah, he had seen other versions of him, and spared them.

 

On Kamino, the choice was taken from him. He had to fight if he was to live, and he had to live in order to save Juno. Thought didn't enter into it. The Force rushed through him, and his lightsabers moved as though of their own accord.

 

His clones screamed as he cut them down.

 

It quickly became apparent that the first to rush in were the wildest and weakest both. In their eagerness to do battle, they didn't stop to plan their strategies. What they possessed in speed, they lacked in forethought. He was armed and they were not, so for being headstrong beyond all reason these brutish beings paid the ultimate price.

 

The next wave either learned from the fate of the first or had enough innate caution to stand back a moment and observe the way he fought. They came at him from all sides, using telekinesis to try to knock him off balance on the blood-slicked floor. He was too fast for them, leaping over their heads and attacking from be- hind, slashing at their overdeveloped shoulders and hunched backs without remorse.

 

Moving out of the center of the ring of converging clones brought him into contact with the third wave, the most cunning he had encountered so far. Long-armed and long-fingered, with blackened, blistering skin, these employed lightning when attacking him, and then by devious means. They would wait until he was distracted and attack him from behind, or come at him from three directions at once, or even use one of their fellow clones as an impromptu conductor. Deadly currents crackled and sparkled around him, kept barely at bay by the judicious application of a Force shield. Sometimes a lucky strike caused him pain, but he fought through it, found the source, and put the attack quickly to an end.

 

From above came the sound of lightsabers activating, and he braced himself for another, more dangerous onslaught. These, the most normal looking of all the clones, spun, slashed, hacked, and stabbed at him from all sides, one-handed, two-handed, with all possible variations of lightsaber combat styles. Red-eyed and hate- filled, they fought each other, too, and the ones who had come before. There were no allies, just a sea of individuals.

 

And yet... Confidence, determination, intelligence, and cunning-combined with physical strength and agility-the clones possessed every attribute he did, in greater or lesser degrees. He saw in their faces the same confusion he felt. They were all clones, so who was he to stand out from among them? What special qualities set him apart?

 

Who was Starkiller, in this mass of faces and bodies?

 

A desperate rage built up inside him. What if what he felt was nothing but a lingering imprint left behind by the first Starkiller? Did he cling to his feelings with all the more desperation because deep down he knew they were counterfeit? "The memories of a dead man," Vader had called them, blaming them for the torment and confusion he had felt. "They will fade," Vader had promised, but they had not. Did the other clones experience the same hopes and fears? Were their experiences any less worthy than his?

 

"Destroy what he created... hate what he loved... be strong..." That was the command Vader had given him, on threat of death. But who was the deliverer of that death? Wasn't he the one delivering to the clones the very fate that he had feared? Had they all been given the same ultimatum?

 

"You will receive the same treatment as the others."

 

Death by lightsaber, at his own hand. Perhaps this macabre free-for-all was Vader's way of weeding out the imperfect stock. The last one left standing would be considered the perfect Starkiller, the one who would take his place at Vader's side. Perhaps that was his plan.

 

"You have faced your final test," Vader had told a victorious version of himself in the vision he had received on the Salvation. Maybe the vision he had received on Dagobah had warned him of a very real trial, nor the metaphorical one he had imagined it to be.

 

The dark side awaited his call. But if this was his final test, then he would not fail. There was too much riding on it. If he gave in to temptation and became Darth Vader's apprentice once more, then it was clear from the vision that Juno would die. She was the whole reason he had escaped, and then returned. He would not turn his back on that, even to survive.

 

He sought strength from within himself, and pushed outward with all his might. Clones went flying. The empty rubes from which they had emerged shattered into millions of pieces. Platforms buckled and fell with reverberant crashes. The interior of the cloning tower rang as though struck with a giant hammer. Every muscle in his body shook with the effort of it.

 

The echoes faded, and he felt a peculiar kind of quiet descend.

 

The air was misted red, and every surface was slick with blood. He tasted it on his tongue and smelled it in his nose. His blood. A veritable ocean of it.

 

He maintained a defensive pose, breathing rhythmically and deeply, regaining his strength. The tips of his lightsabers shook. He had never felt so exhausted, at every level of his being. He felt simultaneously cleansed and poisoned.

 

Nothing moved. Slowly, incredulously, he began to believe that it was over.

 

They were all dead. He had destroyed every last one of them. He was the only one left-of the many Darth Vader had created to do his bidding.

 

"Why me?" he asked the silent cloning tower.

 

"Search your feelings," Vader said, stepping into view at the very top of the tower, lightsaber held tightly in his right hand. "The answer lies within you."

 

Starkiller stared up at his former Master. What did he have that none of the other clones did?

 

He remembered:

 

"How long this time?"

 

"Thirteen days. Impressive. "

 

And he remembered:

 

" The Force gives me all I need. "

 

"The Force?"

 

"The dark side. I mean. "

 

Slowly a dark understanding began to form. All the duels, all the tests, all the torturous mind games, had been to ensure his survival against every opponent-bar one. His Master. In a sense, they were still playing out the first time they had faced each other in combat.

 

He didn't remember the early days of his apprenticeship, when the memories of his parents had been strong and the young boy he had once been resisted Vader's absolute authority, but he was sure the battle had been even then, psychological. The battle would never cease until one of them won.

 

Was this what it was like to be a Sith? Forever at war with one's own Master?

 

"Your training made me strong enough to escape you," he said, "not obey you."

 

"Yet here you are." Darth Vader's words fell on him like heavy weights. "My most deadly creation."

 

"You lie!" Starkiller jumped up to the next platform, passion stirring him to action. "You never wanted this. You can't have. Once Juno has been rescued, your facility will be destroyed. You with it, if there's any justice."

 

"There is no justice," said Darth Vader, watching him ascend. "Only power. "

 

Vader made no move to defend himself when Starkiller reached the very top of the cloning tower. Determined to prove him wrong, Starkiller didn't waste time announcing his intentions. He just lunged. Only at the very last moment did Vader raise his blade to block the blow, and even then the move seemed almost casual, disinterested. Starkiller struck again, with both lightsabers. Vader blocked one blade and used telekinesis to throw the other off target. The platform buckled and twisted, sending Starkiller flying.

 

He rolled and leapt, and came up swinging. Covered in blood-the blood of his fellow clones-and knowing Juno was close, he fought his former Master with single-minded focus. Vader was still testing him; he sensed that more and more keenly, with every passing moment, but to what purpose he still couldn't tell. Vader himself fought more cautiously than he had on the Death Star, the last time they had dueled in earnest. His armor seemed to have improved, too; it was less vulnerable to lightning than it had been just days before.

 

Vader threw wrecked platforms and cloning rubes at him, while he scored three slashes to the Dark Lord's cape in return. They circled the top of the cloning tower, striking and assessing, then striking again.

 

Starkiller swore that he would not give in to anger or frustration. If that was what Darth Vader wanted, he wasn't going to get it. The only emotion he would give in to was love.

 

Finally, Starkiller saw an opportunity. They were exchanging rapid blows along the edge of the buckled platform, blades swinging so fast they were visible only as blurs. Vader's defenses were impenetrable; his lightsaber seemed to arrive a split second before Starkiller's, every time. He may have defeated Vader before, but Vader had learned from that mistake. He knew the measure of his former apprentice now.

 

But the same was true in reverse. And when Vader forced Starkiller onto his back foot and raised his lightsaber to strike him down, Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader's armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn't absorb it.

 

The Dark Lord stiffened, betrayed by his extensive prosthetics. The distraction lasted only a moment, but it was enough. Starkiller knocked his blade out of the way and moved in to strike.

 

Juno lying limp in his arms.

 

The vision struck him as powerfully as a physical blow. When he tried to push it aside, it returned with even more power.

 

Juno-dead.

 

He reeled in shock. Was this what would happen if he killed Vader? He had no choice but to believe so. But if he didn't kill Vader, how would he ever get to her?

 

The Dark Lord took advantage of his momentary confusion. He delivered a telekinetic shove that threw Starkiller backward off the platform and down to the lower levels of the ruined cloning tower. The blow and the fall had the welcome effect of clearing his mind. He turned in midair and landed on his feet. An instant later he was leaping upward again, his face a mask of determination.

 

Whatever happened to Juno, he saw no choice but to confront Darth Vader. The Dark Lord had killed his father, betrayed him at least once, and would kill Juno the very second she was of no more use to him. Their time of reckoning was long overdue.

 

The attainment of his true mastery of the Force-the destiny Darth Vader so often threatened him with-could only come one way. He saw that now. His final test was to kill Vader himself.

 

When he reached the top level, Vader was disappearing behind the doors of another turbolift. Starkiller ripped them open, but the cab had already begun to ascend. He had no intention of waiting for it to return. He braced himself on the inside of the shaft, and jumped.

 

One powerful leap saw him rising almost as fast as the cab. He reached telekinetically for its underside, and caught it. When the cab started to slow, he approached close enough to physically hold on to the underside, and raised one lightsaber to cut his way through.

 

The cab jerked to a halt. Vader was already gone by the time Starkiller emerged through a circular hole in the floor. Outside the cab wasn't another cloning tower. A short ramp led up to the roof of the spire itself, currently out of sight. Starkiller emerged from the cab, a tightness in his chest telling him that Juno was very close now. Very close indeed. She was exactly where he had last seen her.

 

It was raining.

 

The dome had been breached. All around him, the fight between the Rebels and Imperials waged on. Wrecked starfighters tumbled from the sky in flames. Debris gushed out of wounded frigates. A listing Star Destroyer vented air and bodies in huge quantities. Across the facility, dozens of dark columns of smoke formed a thick veil of carbonized ash, choking the air. A constant high-frequency pulsation of energy weapons came from all around him, punctuated by the occasional bass explosion. It was impossible to tell who was winning.

 

Wary of an ambush, Starkiller walked up the ramp. As he did so, Darth Vader came into view. The Dark Lord stood with his lightsaber extinguished in the center of the roof. Behind him, partially obscured by their lord, were four stormtroopers with weapons held at the ready.

 

"Get out of my way," he said.

 

"Your memories betray you," Darth Vader said.

 

"They make me who I am."

 

"You must turn your back on them in order to become who you will be."

 

Starkiller stopped in his tracks. Was that why Darth Vader burdened him with everything the original Starkiller had been-to demonstrate his strength and commitment by dismissing it, his former self with it? Or was there still some other motive that he couldn't discern?

 

Of only one thing was he certain. He wouldn't turn his back on Juno for any incentive.

 

"Never," he said.

 

"Then she will die.”

 

Darth Vader stepped aside, revealing Juno in shackles. He gestured, and the four stormtroopers surrounding her raised their weapons and fired as one.

 

[…]

 

A black-gloved hand grabbed his shoulder. He pulled away, howling with rage. His fallen lightsabers snapped into his hands and came instantly to life. With both blades moving in tandem, he struck out at his former Master using all his strength, all his rage, all his grief. Darth Vader blocked the blow, but only just. Starkiller pushed, and the Dark Lord stumbled backward.

 

Instead of pursuing the attack, Starkiller went to go to Juno, but once again Darth Vader stood in his path.

 

"Get out of my way."

 

"Your feelings for her are not real," Vader said, not moving.

 

"They are real to me."

 

Starkiller attacked the Dark Lord again, but this time he was the one driven back.

 

With a sense of piercing despair, he saw exactly how the fight would go. He and his former Master would dance like marionettes while Juno lay dying-if she wasn't already dead-and the war raged around them, unchecked by this minor tragedy. In the context of the galaxy's suffering, Juno was just one freedom fighter who had died that day-one among many on Kamino alone. Only she hadn't given her life in combat or to save someone less fortunate than herself. She had been snuffed out thanks to the manipulations of one single tortured man, a man whose stubbornness would never allow him to give up, admit fault, or compromise.

 

Starkiller knew nothing about the Dark Lord's origins, but he knew what he had become. More monolith than man, his shadow bestrode the Empire, casting darkness wherever it fell. But what was the source of that scourge? What twisted psychology had brought him to where he stood now-risking his life to prevent the clone of his failed apprentice from coming near the body of the woman he had loved?

 

Sudden understanding burst in Starkiller's mind. This was what Darth Vader had wanted all along. He had been right to fear that Juno was in danger, but not just from clones like him-from Vader, who would use her death to destabilize Starkiller and lead him headlong back to the dark side via anger and despair. Where Starkiller had seen hope, where Starkiller had been willing to sacrifice his own destiny to give the woman he had loved a chance to live, his former Master had seen only opportunity for betrayal- for without Juno, what did Starkiller have left to live and fight for? He had no family, friends, or allies. Juno was always intended to be the catalyst for his downfall. Her precipitous attack had merely brought the critical moment forward.

 

Starkiller saw things very differently. It wasn't Juno who had to die to complete Starkiller's training. It was Darth Vader himself, and he had brought this moment upon himself. Had he been content to let Starkiller go, none of this would have happened. Were he dead or freely searching for Juno, either way, he would never have willingly come back to Kamino. He would have gone anywhere else, and never returned.

 

Darth Vader simply wouldn't let go. The massive cloning exercise itself was proof of that. He had raised Starkiller to be a monster, and he would let nothing get in the way of achieving that outcome. Not even Starkiller's own death. Even if it took a thousand reincarnations and the death of trillions of innocent people, Darth Vader would not give up. His persistence, his unwillingness to accept defeat, was both his greatest strength and his greatest weakness.

 

All the clones were destroyed. As far as Starkiller knew, he was the last one left-so that was one vision averted, at least. No matter what happened, no version of him would hill foul of Darth Vader's vile plan now.

 

They fought like the Sith Lords of old, raging back and forth across the roof of the spire, uncaring what happened around them. Starkiller maintained his efforts to get to Juno, and Darth Vader did everything in his power to stop him. Neither would capitulate. Neither would be the first to break. Their wills were locked.

 

They broke apart, lightsabers hissing in the ceaseless rain. Lightning split the sky into a thousand jagged shapes. Thunder rolled. Neither had noticed the battle fading around them.

 

"Let me go," Starkiller said, sounding much calmer than he felt. His heart was pounding, and his lungs burned. "You've taken everything from me. You must see that I will never serve you now. "

 

"You are wrong. I have given you everything. "

 

"This?" He gestured at Juno's inert form. He couldn't tell if she was breathing, but he still held out a distant hope. "You have done nothing for me."

 

"It is our destiny to destroy the Emperor. You and me, together."

 

There it was, Starkiller thought. That promise again. Surely Darth Vader could see that it meant nothing now, after so many times offered in the past, and none of them fulfilled?

 

Unless... A deeper layer of understanding presented itself. Unless Darth Vader felt exactly the same as he did.

 

What lengths had the Emperor, Darth Vader's Master, gone to in order to create him? And how far would Darth Vader go to get revenge? To attain his own destiny as a Sith?

 

"The Rebels want to destroy the Emperor," Starkiller said. "Why not work with them rather th-?"

 

Vader attacked before he could finish the sentence, a blistering combination of blows that left Starkiller on his back foot. Clearly he had hit a very deep nerve. For a fleeting moment, the plan had seemed almost inspired. With Darth Vader on Kota's side, what couldn't the Alliance accomplish?

 

But it was a dream. The Rebels would never trust the Emperor's apprentice, and Vader was making it very clear that he wanted no part of it either. The vehemence of his response left no doubt about that.

 

Starkiller found himself backed up almost to the edge of the cloning spire's roof. One more step, and he would fall, and to fall would give Vader the high ground. That might not result in his death, but it would certainly end the fight.

 

It needed to end now, or else it might never end.

 

Blow after blow rained on him, forcing him back. There had to be a way to free himself and avenge Juno at the same time... but a stalemate seemed unavoidable. Any move he made was sure to lead him to an indefensible position.

 

Then it occurred to him. An indefensible position was exactly what he needed.

 

He lunged. Darth Vader saw him coming and swiped with unbearable strength, sending Starkiller's left lightsaber flying in pieces. Starkiller lunged again, and his right lightsaber joined his left. He fell back, beaten, and stared up at his former Master.

 

"This is your last chance," Vader said, standing over him with the unwavering tip of his lightsaber pointed directly at Starkiller's chest.

 

Starkiller stared up at the black mask, sure of two things. Vader didn't want to kill him, but not out of mercy or sympathy for his lot. The Dark Lord had invested far too much time and energy in re-creating his former apprentice, and he wouldn't want to throw all that away. Not when he seemed on the verge of victory.

 

Juno was dead or dying. Starkiller was disarmed and helpless.

 

Any rational being would at least consider Vader's offer.

 

The second thing Starkiller knew was: The best way to beat Darth Vader is to let him think he's won.

 

Thinking of Wedge Antilles, he said, "I make my own chances."

 

With both hands he sent a wave of lightning into the sparking gash Juno had made in Vader's chest plate.

 

The Dark Lord staggered backward, transfixed by the unexpected retaliation. Starkiller leapt to his feet and followed him, keeping up the lightning attack and using telekinesis to rip Vader's lightsaber from his temporarily weakened fingers. Sheers of energy spread out across the wet rooftop. Smoke and steam rose up in a tortured spiral. The grating whine of Vader's respirator rook on a desperate edge.

 

He went down on one knee. Starkiller stood over him. Vader's lightsaber swept into his former apprentice's hand. The blade came to rest at his throat.

 

Starkiller stared into the black mask, breathing heavily. One twitch of the blade and Vader would be dead at last.

—TFU II novel

 

 

If you decided not to read the whole thing (I don’t blame you, it’s really lengthy :p), I’ll sum up my point here. Though Starkiller is an incredibly powerful Force user with feats surpassing many powerhouses in the mythos in both telekinesis and Force Lightning, his greatest combative applications of the Force are primarily against non Force users. In order to properly determine Starkiller’s potency against Force users, one must examine his conduct against other Force users, as his applications of the Force against them are far more relevant to this contest than any other feats.

 

Regarding his conduct:

 

Starkiller is clearly primarily a lightsaber duelist, and even pursues melee combat despite his opponent applying the Force against him. And even when he does apply the Force, his standard Force-based attacks are almost laughable in comparison to his more monstrous feats. Even when driven into a rage by the potential death of Juno, Starkiller didn’t obliterate Vader with his Force powers until he had realized that he could not win a lightsaber duel. And even when he did attack with the Force, he didn’t kill Vader outright.

 

So what’s the point? The point is that Starkiller, based on his duel with Vader and his battle with the clones, will pursue a lightsaber duel first and foremost, and his applications of the Force in combat (should he use it) will be powerful, but basic. He won’t be outright dominating Malgus or Revan with his Force powers. Again, this is important to keep in mind. An individual's displays of power against other Force users is the best way to gauge how effective their powers will be against other Force users, and how they will use them. Can Starkiller unleash massive amounts of power? Definitely. When pushed to his limits he can unleash devastating attacks, but that's not his usual MO, even when enraged.

 

That is my opinion on how Starkiller will conduct himself in this contest.

Edited by Aurbere
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Aurbere

Aurbere

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Posted (edited)

I was originally going to fill this with my own argument for why my team wins, but I decided to quickly address battlefield control.

 

 

What has to be remembered is that both Revan and Malgus are extremely experienced battlefield warriors and have demonstrated extensive skill in reading the battlefield, navigating the battlefield, and manipulating the battlefield to their purposes. For this post I will highlight only Revan’s prowess, as that will serve as the crux of my argument in this regard.

 

I previously mentioned Revan’s battle with the Coalition Strike Force as a feat of speed for Revan. However, what I intentionally failed to mention is that it is also a feat of battlefield control, navigation, and manipulation. The ability to contend with multiple Force users as well as some of the galaxy’s greatest warriors simultaneously requires extensive awareness of the battlefield, as well as the ability to manipulate the battlefield.

 

Furthermore, Revan possesses highly advanced battle precognition on the scale of battlefield engagements. Revan displayed this skill as a Sith Lord when he slaughtered the masters of battle precognition: the Echani:

 

"It is the way of the Echani to be able to read their opponents - to know where an opponent is going to strike before it connects, anticipate it, and then strike against them. Echani battles are fought several minutes in advance - in many ways, it is much like the game of dejarik played in the core systems. The most advanced among the Echani are able to predict the course of battles by months, and the most revered are said to be able to predict the path of wars. Only Revan ever demonstrated such a skill in war. And even as he slaughtered us, the Echani still respected him."
―Brianna (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords)

 

Revan is not only able to predict the actions of his opponents, but he can bring this skill to group combat such as this. His breadth of battlefield experience, his precognition, and his ingenious tactical mind (need I quote this?) will allow him to predict the actions of his opponents, analyze the battlefield, and manipulate the battlefield to his advantage. If Malgus is ever in trouble against Starkiller, Revan can intervene with a powerful Force attack against both Cade and Starkiller. It’ll work on Cade because Cade is simply weaker, and it’ll work against Starkiller because he won’t see the attack coming. If he does and defends against it, then it’ll distract him, giving Malgus brief respite or even an opportunity to injure or kill Starkiller. Alternatively, Revan can employ teleportation to move about the battlefield to gain a tactical or positional advantage, or close any distance quickly and catch his opponents off guard.

 

It is true that both Starkiller and Cade have battlefield experience, but they lack in this area compared to Revan. They have not engaged multiple high-level Force users as Revan has. They lack the experience that Revan has. Additionally, they lack his precognition and his tactical mind. They can fight well in this battle, but not to the same level as Revan can. Revan will have full control over the combat through his mastery of the Force and the battlefield.

 

 

That's that. I'll await a response now.

Edited by Aurbere
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cs_zoltan

cs_zoltan

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Posted
It was my intention for this tournament to be my return to the forums and debating in general. After a steady decline, I have refined my methods and broadened my knowledge. To quote:

 

As this is my grand return, I intend for it to be grand. As such, lengthy post incoming.

 

https://31.media.tumblr.com/a78b7e6519658a472d8a6606604e461b/tumblr_n6nutfwWgv1sqdjd0o1_500.gif

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Aurbere

Aurbere

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Posted
Just one thing I have to question Aurbere:When exactly?

 

"Statement: I do not have the exact counts, master, since it is difficult to determine who was a Jedi and who was not - it seemed to be largely a matter of perspective. I did kill many soldiers who used techniques in combat that could make them be considered Jedi, although they called themselves Sith."—HK-47

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