SWTOR Duelling Tournament - Heats/Round 2B: Team Tunewalker vs Team Randomname

[raandomname]

Grievou vs Kyp

 

To start of TotS novelisation states that Grievous is faster then any living being, so yes he is faster then Kyp.

Edit: some more things about speed:

- Grievous seemed to be teleporting to Obi-wan.

- Grievous can attack at 1200 strikes per minute.

- Grievous defeated Durge who saw Jedi such as Obi-wan as moving in slow motion.

As for unorthodox, I was not necesarilly refering to Grievous tactics being unorthodox, but his entirety is unorthodox. He was essentially a one of a type murder machine that was never replicated in similar fashion before and after and the features of his body are very unconventional and allow for numerous unusual combinations.

Then Grievous IS a tactical genius, as noted by The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia. The Essential Guide to Warfare also notes his tactical ability. Or as Shaak Ti puts it so abtly "Never have we been outmaeuvered by droids. His strategy is without flaw." Also note again that while Grievous was the CIS's primary or probably only, strategist he also masterminded several CIS victories as a commander on the planetary and smaller scale level such as on Duros or as mentioned before Hypori, where he completely outmaneuvered the Jedi and Republic forces.

As for Dooku vs Grievous, in Labyrinth of Evil the Count admits that he was at times hard pressed to keep up with Grievous and that he withheld some secrets from Grievousto prevent the cyborg from overthrowing him. I think that it is likely that he was lees thourough in teaching Grievous Makashi, then in his teaching of the other 6 lightsaber forms to ensure that Dooku always has the edge. What is the first rule of creating any powerful weapon? Make sure that it cant detroy you. It is likely that Grievous' duels with Dooku are thus not representative of a duel with a duelist of similar caliber, but about whose fighting style Grievous is more informed.

As for multiple attack angles that is simply untrue. On Geonosis Grievous killed several Jedi and hundreds of cloes (no, this is not hyperbole, it is stated in numerous sources) with only his claws. He defeated Durge and Ventress, who is a duel wielder, at the same time, he usually spared against several Magna Guards and defeated and killed Foul Moudama and Roron Corobb at the same time.

As for durable, while Kyp's feat is impressive, Grievous has similarly impressive feats. However, Grievous has one large advantage: his durability is passive. In the feat you showed Kyp had to actively use the force to keep himself alive, while Grievous' durability is due to his armor. If Kyp wants to boost his durability, he will have to spend less energy and concentration on attack and defense and on durability instead, Grievous does not.

I also never said anything close to Kyp being a unskilled wild cild, I just noticed from your own quotes that he seems to be a skilled fighter, but one with an aggresive fighting style, just like Mace or Yoda and that aggresive fighting styles like these are not too efective against Grievous.

 

Wrath vs K'kruhk:

 

First of all you still havent given any real proof of his strength. If it isnt obvious Im not very familiar with his species and others probably are not as well.

Moving on, it does not matter who he has taught. I could also teach Einstein math, if he hadnt had previous experience with it.

The claim that the Wrath has never faced an opponent without a companion is incorrect. He killed a famous Sith champion, the beast of one of the most famous Sith in history Marka Ragnos, that no Sith had ever defeated and that was such a powerful dark side nexus that it send ripples through the force, strong enough to attract the attention of a Dark Council Member, and a famous Sith instructor all without any support and in the first week of his training. This alone is imho more impressive then anything you have yet posted about K'krurhk. He also defeated Yonlach, one of the greatest Jedi Masters of his time and the best swordsman, he had ever trained, without a companion, and also after traveling through a desert so deadly, that one of Baras' agents who had spent years on Tatooine was completely convinced that the Wrath would not survive the desert and also did this long before his prime. Of the companions he could use one is a Twilek slave girl with limited combat skill, one is a tactical advisor with little combat experience and one is a Talz weirdo with essentialy no impressive combat feats.

 

Jadus vs Leia

 

While I now get what you mean with the stones, I would still point out that while Leia may be able to move objects of similar size, that does not necesarily mean that she can deflect them, because Jadus as a more powerful tk user, will still throw the rocks at her with potentially more force then ahe can handle. Furthermore, I see no reason why Jadus could not use another application of tk to attack Leia, such as force crush or force choke. And while his teleport may have only limited range, it still gives him a massive advantage.

 

Teamwork

 

While I will happily admit that my team's team work will be inferior, most of your team work section seems to be based on the incorrect assumption that my team members are idiots and amateurs. While they will not work together necesarily, there is still a large difference between not working together and actively hindering one another. All of my team members are at leat reasonably inteligent and will recognise the value of their team mates living. I also dont see why my team members are supposed to be all hunched together, when they all have ample methods of repositioning available. Also why exactly would Grievous go all helicopter style when engaging a single opponent?

Edited July 15, 2015 by raandomname

[Aurbere]

Grievou vs Kyp

 

To start of TotS novelisation states that Grievous is faster then any living being, so yes he is faster then Kyp.

Edit: some more things about speed:

- Grievous seemed to be teleporting to Obi-wan.

- Grievous can attack at 1200 strikes per second

 

Um. Can I, Sel?

[cs_zoltan]

Um. Can I, Sel?

 

No, you can't. This is proof that Obi-Wan is da best.

[Silenceo]

Correction:

 

Grievous was clocked around 20 strikes per second, and slightly beyond if I recall correctly. Not 100%, but it is from ROTS novel I believe. When he fights Obi-wan.

[raandomname]

Correction:

 

Grievous was clocked around 20 strikes per second, and slightly beyond if I recall correctly. Not 100%, but it is from ROTS novel I believe. When he fights Obi-wan.

Facepalm. I meant per minute. Fixed it.

[cs_zoltan]

I'll read through this debacle as soon as I can and bring down my fury on those I deem wrong

 

[Aurbere]

No, you can't. This is proof that Obi-Wan is da best.

 

https://youtu.be/eYT3ctPuVRw?t=1m45s

[cs_zoltan]

https://youtu.be/eYT3ctPuVRw?t=1m45s

 

Yeah, well Dark Disciple.

[raandomname]

Grievous vs Force Crush:

While we've been mostly focusing on lightsaber combat lately. I still wanted to quickly address this. To me the force attacks that Moudama, Corobb and Ti used against Grievous seem to be force crushes, due to the imense damage that they cause to a small area. Grievous was able to dosge or in the case of Ti tamk these attacks with little difficulty. However, this was different against Mace. When facing Mace, Grievous surely expected Mace, the most famous duelist of his time, to attack him with his light saber. However, Mace probably saw the vulnerable remains of Grievous' organic body as a Shatterpoint and thus proceded to fc them, which Grievous did not expect. However, against an opponent whom he wont expect to solely focus on lightsaber combat, hell be prepared and either dodge the fc or be able to tank them like he did with Ti's that was not focused on his vulnerable parts.

To clarify, Im not saying that Mace is a weak force user, just that he usually uses his saber over his force abilities.

[tunewalker]

Grievous vs Force Crush:

While we've been mostly focusing on lightsaber combat lately. I still wanted to quickly address this. To me the force attacks that Moudama, Corobb and Ti used against Grievous seem to be force crushes, due to the imense damage that they cause to a small area. Grievous was able to dosge or in the case of Ti tamk these attacks with little difficulty. However, this was different against Mace. When facing Mace, Grievous surely expected Mace, the most famous duelist of his time, to attack him with his light saber. However, Mace probably saw the vulnerable remains of Grievous' organic body as a Shatterpoint and thus proceded to fc them, which Grievous did not expect. However, against an opponent whom he wont expect to solely focus on lightsaber combat, hell be prepared and either dodge the fc or be able to tank them like he did with Ti's that was not focused on his vulnerable parts.

To clarify, Im not saying that Mace is a weak force user, just that he usually uses his saber over his force abilities.

 

Those attacks are all waves, we have seen waves do that kind of damage if not more. Crushes dont move in that manner or act in that manner, and hand maneuvers dont look like that, there is no reason to think they are crushes.

[tunewalker]

Grievou vs Kyp

 

To start of TotS novelisation states that Grievous is faster then any living being, so yes he is faster then Kyp.

Edit: some more things about speed:

- Grievous seemed to be teleporting to Obi-wan.

- Grievous can attack at 1200 strikes per minute.

- Grievous defeated Durge who saw Jedi such as Obi-wan as moving in slow motion.

As for unorthodox, I was not necesarilly refering to Grievous tactics being unorthodox, but his entirety is unorthodox. He was essentially a one of a type murder machine that was never replicated in similar fashion before and after and the features of his body are very unconventional and allow for numerous unusual combinations.

Then Grievous IS a tactical genius, as noted by The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia. The Essential Guide to Warfare also notes his tactical ability. Or as Shaak Ti puts it so abtly "Never have we been outmaeuvered by droids. His strategy is without flaw." Also note again that while Grievous was the CIS's primary or probably only, strategist he also masterminded several CIS victories as a commander on the planetary and smaller scale level such as on Duros or as mentioned before Hypori, where he completely outmaneuvered the Jedi and Republic forces.

As for Dooku vs Grievous, in Labyrinth of Evil the Count admits that he was at times hard pressed to keep up with Grievous and that he withheld some secrets from Grievousto prevent the cyborg from overthrowing him. I think that it is likely that he was lees thourough in teaching Grievous Makashi, then in his teaching of the other 6 lightsaber forms to ensure that Dooku always has the edge. What is the first rule of creating any powerful weapon? Make sure that it cant detroy you. It is likely that Grievous' duels with Dooku are thus not representative of a duel with a duelist of similar caliber, but about whose fighting style Grievous is more informed.

As for multiple attack angles that is simply untrue. On Geonosis Grievous killed several Jedi and hundreds of cloes (no, this is not hyperbole, it is stated in numerous sources) with only his claws. He defeated Durge and Ventress, who is a duel wielder, at the same time, he usually spared against several Magna Guards and defeated and killed Foul Moudama and Roron Corobb at the same time.

As for durable, while Kyp's feat is impressive, Grievous has similarly impressive feats. However, Grievous has one large advantage: his durability is passive. In the feat you showed Kyp had to actively use the force to keep himself alive, while Grievous' durability is due to his armor. If Kyp wants to boost his durability, he will have to spend less energy and concentration on attack and defense and on durability instead, Grievous does not.

I also never said anything close to Kyp being a unskilled wild cild, I just noticed from your own quotes that he seems to be a skilled fighter, but one with an aggresive fighting style, just like Mace or Yoda and that aggresive fighting styles like these are not too efective against Grievous.

 

Wrath vs K'kruhk:

 

First of all you still havent given any real proof of his strength. If it isnt obvious Im not very familiar with his species and others probably are not as well.

Moving on, it does not matter who he has taught. I could also teach Einstein math, if he hadnt had previous experience with it.

The claim that the Wrath has never faced an opponent without a companion is incorrect. He killed a famous Sith champion, the beast of one of the most famous Sith in history Marka Ragnos, that no Sith had ever defeated and that was such a powerful dark side nexus that it send ripples through the force, strong enough to attract the attention of a Dark Council Member, and a famous Sith instructor all without any support and in the first week of his training. This alone is imho more impressive then anything you have yet posted about K'krurhk. He also defeated Yonlach, one of the greatest Jedi Masters of his time and the best swordsman, he had ever trained, without a companion, and also after traveling through a desert so deadly, that one of Baras' agents who had spent years on Tatooine was completely convinced that the Wrath would not survive the desert and also did this long before his prime. Of the companions he could use one is a Twilek slave girl with limited combat skill, one is a tactical advisor with little combat experience and one is a Talz weirdo with essentialy no impressive combat feats.

 

Jadus vs Leia

 

While I now get what you mean with the stones, I would still point out that while Leia may be able to move objects of similar size, that does not necesarily mean that she can deflect them, because Jadus as a more powerful tk user, will still throw the rocks at her with potentially more force then ahe can handle. Furthermore, I see no reason why Jadus could not use another application of tk to attack Leia, such as force crush or force choke. And while his teleport may have only limited range, it still gives him a massive advantage.

 

Teamwork

 

While I will happily admit that my team's team work will be inferior, most of your team work section seems to be based on the incorrect assumption that my team members are idiots and amateurs. While they will not work together necesarily, there is still a large difference between not working together and actively hindering one another. All of my team members are at leat reasonably inteligent and will recognise the value of their team mates living. I also dont see why my team members are supposed to be all hunched together, when they all have ample methods of repositioning available. Also why exactly would Grievous go all helicopter style when engaging a single opponent?

 

Greivous vs Kyp: A Blaster bolt killed Grievous, one that he could not dodge. Leia has seen blaster bolts in slow motion and blocked THOUSANDS of them in SECONDS. As you just noted Greivous doenst come CLOSE to that attack speed, not even with in 1/100 that attack speed. Jaina is faster then her mother and Kyp has fought and defeated Jaina or fought evenly with her.... Yes he is faster. We dont know how he did that on geonosis do we... killing a lot of people does not = handling attacks from multiple angles, especially not when you have seens like Hypori where he fights multiple people but his reaction to any time he was surrounded was "fight a couple seconds then spin blades" it also doesnt explain https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gW8ku_RW6xs Specifically the first 40 seconds, the staff just needed to be a lightsaber and he would have been dead. He also has NEVER beaten a Jedi MASTER with out breaking them first and that is what Kyp is. Further all of hte feats you are using are from the OCW runs... which are considered less accurate the the TCW ones that I have been linking, and they dont support your theory any way. He beat a lot of people... great... he didnt do so while handling attacks, especially projectiles, from multiple angles at the same time. Any time he does that he spins his blades in the direction of the would be attacker, that does not help when their is only 1 attacker throwing projectiles from multiple angles, and it doesnt help in close combat with allies that he could potentially hit.

 

 

Wrath vs K'kruhk

A whipid is basically an Ice Wookie.... you all know what Wookies are right? He matched other duelists such as Quinlon Voss, he was the only one Greivous had to use tricks to beat on Hypori.... you know where he over power Shaak Ti... K'kruhk's skill is on par with Shaak Ti..... this was all BEFORE the dark times, before his skills would have improved and did improve. Because while Force power may be limited... light saber skill isnt until you top out, you can train train train saber skills until you are hte best of the best, and that's how he became grand master. As for the rest of hte feats... a nexus that empowers dark siders a dark sider stood in and fought a dark side beast.... he was empowered by the same nexus that the beast was it was a neutral fight... Streen fought a bigger and nastier sith beast in the Leviathan. Sith Instructor's have never shown anything impressive at all beating one isnt impressive. Yonlach has no feats to his name... Oh he is really good...... like the 400 other Jedi not on the level of K'kruhk. K'kruhk has dropped a corvette to frigate sized ship and his TK wasnt what he was known for it was his combat skills.... he shows force powers on par with people like Baras, except the difference between him and Baras is he isnt a fat guy, and the Wrath has no one to help him this time. His skills BEFORE his prime was on par with people like Shak Tii and Quinlon Vos. He doesnt need to beat the Wrath only hold him. The only means K'kruhk has ever lost to has been unconventional tactics and Wrath has shown NO unconventional tactics in defeating his foes. Finally K'kruhk doesnt need to win only hold and considering they are both likely using shien, holding should be no problem.

 

Leia vs Jadus.

 

She has been able to handle stuff thrown at her, or she has thrown things at missile to blaster speed there is nothing here he can throw with enough force that she cant either deflect or dodge with her speed. The "why cant he just choke her" is easy 1 she has never been choked as a Knight to my knowledge... she is the daughter of the chosen one, her force shields are the equivlant strength of that we are talking Sidious probably cant choke her Jadus isnt........ the other factors for that are Streen... streen has shown the ability to prevent force chokes by putting oxygen into peoples lungs. The best that has happened to leia is some one pulled on her foot while her gaurd was down... for 2 seconds..... its never happened while her gaurd is up, or lasted for more then a couple seconds once she learned the ability to root herself in the force if she had more then a second to respond, and given her speed she will, she can just root herself and it doenst matter how strong Jadus is, it's not strong enough. Again i point to how many "more powerful force users" arent powerful enough to throttle some one just under them. and that's what leia is In TK ONLY, she has better speed feats and equivlant mental feats. There is no reason to think with JUST TK that makes Jadus an overall more powerful force user.

 

 

Team work: if Greivous doesnt do helicopter style he is incapable of handling attacks from multiple directions that is his go to method (see Hypori, even Obi-wan and of course Gungans). Your team doesnt have to ACTIVELY work against one another to work against one another. Do you think that Video of Toph and Katara where Katara got hit with a rock thrown by Toph at AANG was 2 idiots who were actively working against one another? no they were team mates... team mates for months and had fought in several battles together, but they were not mentally in sync on that 1 day and that's all it takes for attacks to get dodged and hit an unintended target. Your people have never worked together, let alone worked in ANY team situation. All it takes is my PERFECTLY synchronized team that is actively Working TOGETHER AND all being highly tactical people that use terrain and situations to their advantage constantly to Line up 1 opponent for 1 half second long enough for a dodged attack to hit an ally. This happens CONSTANTLY for opponents that are not completely in sync. All of your people are solo fighters, they dont need to be stupid, they dont need to be actively working against each other, they just have to be focused on their own opponent for 3 seconds instead of focusing on the fight as a whole. And given these guys track records of working in teams (IE no team work ever) that's bound to happen.

[tunewalker]

Kind of want to cover K'kruhk a little more

 

Remember all of this is before becoming grand master, Jensaari admits his opponent wouldnt stand chance against him in the Legacy comics.

 

Further again the Wrath's opponents that he fought that were on par with his ability to pull the large Hauler out of the sky... physically they were all very lacking. A couple were aging old humans, and the other was a fat man. Its no wonder a physically fit saber duelist in the prime of his life was able to beat these opponents... WITH HELP in a saber duel. K'kruhk is a skilled duelist on par during an earlier portion of his life with masters like Mundi and Shaak Ti, and physically was as strong as a Force Augmented Wookie (because that's basically what he is... except its a whiphid not a wookie...) Obviously as a grand master with 100 years to refine and increase his skills he is a highly skilled duelist and I see no reason to think why he wouldnt be at least close to the Wrath.

[tunewalker]

One last thing I wanted to cover.

 

the reason I have been focusing on Greivous so much, is he is the only character on my opponents team that is explored well enough for me to see strenghts and weaknesses, who has fights I can look at and go... ok this is where he lost and how... this is where he won... did the weaknesses that caused his losses show up yes or no? if they did what was the differences and how did he handle the situation differently? and that has lead me to the conclusions it did.

 

The Wrath has a few force users that have next to no back ground information on them that he beat alone, and the ones that he beat that DID have some back ground information were physically out of shape and he didnt fight them alone. That's basically the same as saying "My guy beat Random sith number 312.. oh but this random sith DID have a name..." that doesnt make them any less random, and through all of this we have no idea how he even beat them.... Was it tactical? Was it style differences? was it the team work? was it just sheer power? what are his weaknesses... better question what the hell are his STRENGTHS? he is good with a sword? but that isnt really quantified when the only opponents that have actual history behind them arent in any kind of Saber fighting shape to consider them a "good comparison" as far as Duelists go.

 

 

Jadus has 1 good TK feat and a couple Telepathic feats... he loses to a couple non-force sensitives and then we have a bunch of "he is really good" stuff coming from a bunch of people who cant even feel the force let alone comprehend what it means? There is so much missing on how this guy fights or what he does that I cant even begin to do anything except give my opponent the benefit of the doubt that being a DC member that had 1 good TK feat means that he can all of a sudden beat the daughter of the chosen one who has plenty of IN COMBAT Tk Feats, speed feats, force shield feats and everything under the sun simply because 1 TK feat that may or may not be applicable in combat or may or may not indicate how good he is in battle.

 

That's basically my issue when fighting this team. Its hard to pin down their actual skill or strength level so we are just "assuming" they are on par with a Jedi Grand Master, and the Daughter of hte Chosen one... and I am still argueing I can win while giving my opponent a huge benefit of the doubt with NEARLY featless opponents, because they dont need to be stronger, just close enough that the team work wins the day.

Edited July 15, 2015 by tunewalker

[tunewalker]

Wanted to reiterate something with a couple things.

 

"Funny." He advanced toward Kyp in mock menace. "Is this every Master for himself?"

 

Kyp shrugged and ignited his own lightsaber. "Might as well."

 

Luke heard snap-hisses as the other Masters lit their weapons. This friendly exercise would be horribly dangerous to anyone but a Jedi Master, but all of those present were so in tune with the Force and one another that the odds of a mishap were, as usual, almost nil.

 

Luke charged Kyp but then, well outside lightsaber strike range, skidded to an abrupt halt. Kyp's face had just enough time to register suspicion before Luke exerted himself through the Force, reaching upward to tree limbs that had grown out over the outpost. He yanked downward. A broad branch slapped down atop Kyp, bearing him to the landing pad surface and sending leaves swirling out all over the roof.

 

Kyp laughed and rolled free, coming up to his feet. "No fair."

 

"Tactical superiority is never fair.'"

 

"I mean, getting leaves and bugs in my hair."

 

Luke felt the approach of Cilghal from behind. He leapt up and backward, inverting as he flew, and blocked the Mon Cal Master's strike with his blade in passing. He landed behind her. A few meters away, Saba Sebatyne and Corran Horn dueled, each adopting a traditional, formalized lightsaber posture-Saba using a lightsaber in each hand, Corran with his own weapon adjusted to its second setting, its blade now three meters in length and a brilliant Purple instead of its usual silver. Octa Ramis, who had sup-plied Saba with her second weapon, was content to stand off to one side, using the Force to hurl stones, plucked from the ground far below, through the tumult of practicing Masters. Kyle Katarn stood near her, watching all the others, practicing ritualized sword forms and waiting for an opponent to come open.

 

Kyp advanced against Luke again, striking at Luke's ankles while Cilghal engaged the Grand Master's blade. Luke danced over the low strike and put a foot into Cilghal's torso, more of a push than a kick, before landing again. The Mon Cal staggered back a few steps, offering a nod of appreciation.

 

Kyp threw a succession of fast blows at Luke's shoulders, occupying him while Cilghal recovered. "Actually, it's a plan for a mission against Jacen. A capture-or-neutralize, "he said, his lightsaber flashing at Luke.

 

"Neutralize." Luke frowned. He circled Kyp, trying to put him in the middle of their three-way exchange, but Cilghal paced him so that Luke remained in the center. "Meaning 'kill.' "

 

Kyp nodded, not repentant. "This isn't a mission of assassination, Luke. But if the capture isn't clean, if the choice is to run away and leave him in charge of the Alliance or finish him then and there ..."

 

"Yeah." Luke felt Cilghal's approach behind him. He bent over backward, his lightsaber hand coming down on the landing pad surface to hold his upper body clear of it, and Cilghal's lightsaber passed through where his waist would have been. Luke instantly straightened, catching her hilt with his free hand, and stepped away, her lightsaber now in his grip. He twirled one blade at each Master. "Go on."

 

With an exasperated sigh, Cilghal stepped back and exerted herself toward Kyle. The man's lightsaber leapt free from his grip and flew to Cilghal's. Kyle offered no resistance. Cilghal caught it out of the air, called "Thank you," and dashed toward Corran.

 

Kyp looked dubiously at Luke's twin weapons and fell into a defensive posture. "The team will consist of one or two Masters, three or four Jedi Knights, and a native guide. They'll approach the Senate Building through the undercity." As Luke neared and began throwing probing attacks in quick succession, Kyp deflected them close to his body with equal speed and minimal movement. "When Jacen enters or leaves the building, they spring the trap. Coma gas and shock nets as the first wave, the Jedi making their direct assault immediately afterward." He stopped to stare intently at Luke.

 

Luke felt the attack-the Force, propelling numerous small objects at him. He jumped back and brought up both lightsabers as a shower of old nuts and bolts came at him with missile speed. It was like defending himself against Yuuzhan Vong thud bugs for the first time in years, but the old skill was undiminished-he calculated which objects had a chance of hitting him and incinerated only them with his blades, letting the others fly harmlessly past.

 

The trouble was, the ones that flew past soon curved around for another attack.

 

Meanwhile, Kyp continued, "We have a shuttle or other enclosed vehicle land for a quick extraction. But the trick is, it's an empty droid vehicle. Our group, with Jacen, their captive, actually reenters the undercity through a ground-side maintenance access hatch modified to serve as an exit. While the shuttle makes its escape run and draws off pursuit, our group goes back the way it came to the true departure point."

 

"Who's the team leader?"

 

Kyp shrugged. "Not determined yet."

 

Corran's and Kyle's voices rose simultaneously: "Me."

 

Luke, thoughtful, finished incinerating the last of the flying bolts. He switched off Cilghal's lightsaber and tossed it over his shoulder. He heard it slap down into her big webbed hand. "What about your native guide? Someone to get you through the undercity, I'm guessing. Do you trust him?"

 

Kyp nodded.

 

"Not as far as I can throw her." That was Corran, his voice punctuated by zaps as Saba advanced on him, trying to bat his longer blade aside.

 

Kyp made a sour face. "Horn, you can't throw anybody any distance. With the Force, anyway. This calls your judgment into question."

 

"Her." Luke switched off his lightsaber. "Maybe I should meet her."

 

Kyp deactivated his own weapon. "She's one level down. I can have her come up if you want to meet her now."

 

Source: Legacy of the Force: Fury

 

 

First remember that this is every master for himself, so Kyp's strikes against Luke that Nearly Take out Cihgal is part of exactly what I am talking about with the team work portion, 1 ally striking at an enemy that dodges just to hit the other unsuspecting enemy.

 

Further other examples from star wars sources

 

 

This is Malgus and his master, does the fact that Malgus's masters lightning was used against Malgus or that his master dodged a sword aimed at his head that allowed Kao Cen do deflect a lightsaber blow with a saber throw make his Malgus and his Master idiots? no I dont think it does. And since this is Master and apprentice they have more "synergy" then your team has displayed. All of this is just the kind of examples of an In sync team working against a team that is out for themselves, more examples exist all over the place, but I am not going to dig them out.

 

 

Also wanted to remind every one who Kyp durron is. For the Capture mission that MIGHT have to kill, they were taking Volunteers, but when it was decided that all other options had been exhausted and they needed Jacen Solo... a guy more powerful then darth vader.... to be KILLED the person they were originally going to send, was Kyp Durron. It was basically a "well we tried everything else... he needs to die.. Kyp your up" and Kyp being "I'll make it as painless as possible" no that wasnt the actual dialog if some one has the actual Dialog and wants to post it feel free, but that's what I got out of it. Luke was a no go cause he knew he might fall if he did so they picked the next best person they could find to kill Jacen, and that was Kyp. Kyp is the only Skywalker level, non Skywalker in the NJO. And I personally dont see any reason to think the Skywalkers would have been any less of a power house during any other era they were all decendants of the Chosen one who was SUPPOSED to replace Father, as far as I can tell that makes them the replacement "son's and daughters". It was only Jaina's plead to allow her to do it instead and I believe one of the councils visions that this was a good thing that made them not go with Kyp.

 

 

At this point I think me and Random are just going to go back and forth. We havent brought up new material really we are just kind of reiterating points.... I dont want to get into back and forths for the sake of back and forths people will be convinced by what people are convinced by.

Edited July 15, 2015 by tunewalker

[Selenial]

Those attacks are all waves, we have seen waves do that kind of damage if not more. Crushes dont move in that manner or act in that manner, and hand maneuvers dont look like that, there is no reason to think they are crushes.

I'd disagree. Force attacks require you to actually focus on your target, a crush likely requires quite specific usage of the force. If a target is moving rapidly, using the force to crush them might be intensely difficult, hence the masters aiming for the walls with a Force Crush than aiming at Grievous. With Windu, Grievous was perfectly still and focussing the force into him would have been easy.

 

If Grievous is moving fast, which he does, I'm not sure a Force Crush is actually a viable way of taking him out. We rarely see them deployed in Canon and that's probably why...

[cs_zoltan]

Further all of hte feats you are using are from the OCW runs... which are considered less accurate the the TCW ones that I have been linking, and they dont support your theory any way.

 

Tbh, with Grievous it's probably the other way around.

[tunewalker]

I'd disagree. Force attacks require you to actually focus on your target, a crush likely requires quite specific usage of the force. If a target is moving rapidly, using the force to crush them might be intensely difficult, hence the masters aiming for the walls with a Force Crush than aiming at Grievous. With Windu, Grievous was perfectly still and focussing the force into him would have been easy.

 

If Grievous is moving fast, which he does, I'm not sure a Force Crush is actually a viable way of taking him out. We rarely see them deployed in Canon and that's probably why...

 

Well yanking his foot and off balancing him isnt, we see him moving fast against Dooku and he does the same thing... And again the hand motions dont fit a force crush so... but still as I said before its not neccisary.

 

Obi-wan

Dooku

Kit Fisto

 

have all fought on par or beaten Greivous. Kyp as a saber duelist is on par with these people, he was described as the most powerful person Luke Met since before the Second death star's destruction. That's a lot of people. And he has been described as one of the NJO's finest duelists Luke even noting that he himself while tired is quite a bit bellow his top duelists.

 

The thing the 3 duelists above have in common is adaptablility. (Soresu is an adaptable defensive style, Dooku's Makashi practiced "do not become a slave to form" and Kit Fisto uses Shii-cho a fall back form for most allowing it to be effective and highly randomized. the Basics taken to the Nth.) and Kyp has faced unorthodox never before seen villians through out his carreer. Between the Spice creatures on kessel, to the Leviathon to being the first person to successfully escape the Vong... who are nothing like anything ever seen. At least greivous is still technology Kyp will some what recognize by comparison to the Bio Tech of the Vong (creatures grown or bread to be weapons or vehicles no metal at all... they are weird)

 

Further again K'kruhk knows Greivous, with a Force meld this will give Kyp a huge edge, with Streen reading his mind an even further edge.

 

 

I am not trying to say Grievous was not a tactically skilled individual but so was Kyp. And large scale tactics dont always translate to small scale battles. Heck the Jedi even admit their issue, "we have NEVER been out maneuvered by droids before" this is what you would call "victory has defeated you" Constant victory can cause laziness so when they finally run into an equal opponent they werent prepared to have to have perfect tactics because they are used to their enemies having flawed tactics. We see Shaak Ti some what over come this in their next encounter with grievous BFRing him several times. Again I am not saying Greivous is an idiot, but I am saying Kyp isnt, shown time and again he gets tactical just like grievous and both can apply it in small scale. But with Streen reading grievous's mind and the Meld and the other team work aspects along with Kyps own natural skill/ power and adaptability he will still lose.

Edited July 15, 2015 by tunewalker

[tunewalker]

Tbh, with Grievous it's probably the other way around.

 

this is incorrect for all characters. TCW was T canon before the Disney thing and OCW was C-canon. Automatically that does not make it the other way around for greivous. Also with Disney TCW is canon.... OCW is not so again Nope never the case. Unfortunately. Everything including grievous was overblown and big and epic in OCW, it is more accurate in TCW.

 

 

Edit: for those still doubting watch TCW Greivous compare him to Episode III greivous and then compare OCW greivous to both.... which one is the one that doesnt line up..... its OCW. TCW and G-canon Greivous feats line up perfectly with one another and line up perfectly with Winud's "greivous is a coward" speech. OCW is still the inaccurate one. Basically play the one of these things is not like the other game and OCW is the odd man out.

Edited July 15, 2015 by tunewalker

[cs_zoltan]

this is incorrect for all characters. TCW was T canon before the Disney thing and OCW was C-canon. Automatically that does not make it the other way around for greivous. Also with Disney TCW is canon.... OCW is not so again Nope never the case. Unfortunately. Everything including grievous was overblown and big and epic in OCW, it is more accurate in TCW.

 

Didn't expect anything else form you really...

 

The fact is OCW was canon before Disney. The only reason the Star Wars community take it with a grain of salt because of some feats are inconsistant. Guess what? TCW is what inconsistant for Grievous. He is one of the best jedi killers of all time and gets beaten by Gungans and Ventress? Please...The ROTS novelizations itself states that only Obi-Wan can defeat him and then Eeth Koth and Kit Fisto plays around with him like a child.

[cs_zoltan]

Edit: for those still doubting watch TCW Greivous compare him to Episode III greivous and then compare OCW greivous to both.... which one is the one that doesnt line up..... its OCW. TCW and G-canon Greivous feats line up perfectly with one another and line up perfectly with Winud's "greivous is a coward" speech. OCW is still the inaccurate one. Basically play the one of these things is not like the other game and OCW is the odd man out.

 

[tunewalker]

Didn't expect anything else form you really...

 

The fact is OCW was canon before Disney. The only reason the Star Wars community take it with a grain of salt because of some feats are inconsistant. Guess what? TCW is what inconsistant for Grievous. He is one of the best jedi killers of all time and gets beaten by Gungans and Ventress? Please...The ROTS novelizations itself states that only Obi-Wan can defeat him and then Eeth Koth and Kit Fisto plays around with him like a child.

 

It doesnt say ONLY, it says he may be the BEST, and considering how well Obi-wan dominated him in the duel before hand best is pretty far ahead. and again match TCW feats up with Episode III MOVIE feats... and then look at OCW, it's still the odd man out. Fisto is a duelist who uses a different style then Obi-wan but is still a duelist on par with him. So matching up to greivous is more then believable. Same with Ventress. The gungans used his overconfidence Isolated him away from all his droids and attacked him from multiple directions with both Projectiles and Staffs.

Gungans no dieing without a fight... wesa Warriors, wesa have a GRAND army.

Just because fans dont take them seriously doesnt mean they arent a threat... Remember it was the gungans that came to the Mon Cals aide. Edited July 15, 2015 by tunewalker

[tunewalker]

 

Not my fault you cant accept T-canon was always above C-canon.

[cs_zoltan]

Not my fault you cant accept T-canon was always above C-canon.

 

Not my fault you can't comprehend that being inconsistant is not the same as being contradictory, and that canon level has nothing to do with the former (unless something is specifically not canon).

[tunewalker]

Not my fault you can't comprehend that being inconsistant is not the same as being contradictory, and that canon level has nothing to do with the former (unless something is specifically not canon).

 

Which is why I have been debunking them using themselves and analyzing the scene. If you over blow a bunch of Jedi in your series then to make a believable Jedi KILLER you have to do the same to the Jedi Killer.... when I say look at scenes and tell me which is more accurate, I mean this

 

 

 

 

 

 

Which 2 have the most in common when it comes to fighting techniques..... its the last 2, he never fights upside down, and both of them even start the same. Yes OCW is accurate in the respect that he beat those masters, and he beat them by isolating each of the duelists turning it into a sequence of 1v1's while every one of them was dead beat tired, but his fighting style is not consitent or accurate with his MOVIE counter part, and movies ARE the most accurate portrayal of a character. TCW matches this movie counter part so we can with full 100% distinction say that the TCW version is more ACCURATE then the OCW version. T-canon will over right C-canon if it contradicts... him getting trashed by gungans is T-canon, and thus the most accurate version of the events we get unless it was a movie. Even in the "over blown" series I found plenty to pick apart as to why it matches up with the T-canon thing any way, just with everythign, his opponents AND him, looking overblown in the OCW series.... because everything was overblown in that series.

Edited July 15, 2015 by tunewalker

[cs_zoltan]

Random, pretty pretty pretty please bombard Tune with a wall of Grievous' feats and accolades, because this is getting ridiculous.