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SWTOR Duelling Tournament - Heats/Round 2B: Team Tunewalker vs Team Randomname

Selenial

By Selenial
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Jarons

Jarons

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My votes go for tune.He was kinda the underdog here in his match and he debated his team advantage over Random spectacularly.While random did Well the lackly hold of his team actually working together is rather low.I see them turning on each other rather quickly a d tune time can use their teamwork to just pick them off one by one.
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Silenceo

Silenceo

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My vote is going towards

 

 

 

Cs_Zoltan

 

 

Did a better job of entertaining me than anyone else in this thread, also has a kick*** sense of humor.

 

You are now my favorite.

 

 

Seriously though, I will give an actual write up in a bit.

What... Have you done?!

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ShadowMudkip

ShadowMudkip

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Alright, in all seriousness, I'll post my write up. First things first, I'm not actually going to vote for either side. I had issues with some of the arguments, and some of the team analysis that happened

 

Tune

 

I don't really like flame wars on forums, it's not really my thing. That being said, I have some advice if you would like to take it. While observing the various Duels matches, I usually always have set expectations to be met when I am trying to decide a victor. Because we are asked to leave out character bias and previous knowledge of characters, I always approach the situation assuming I know nothing. I'm not going to lie, I'm not a fan of post ROTJ eras. However, that would be unfair of me to make assumptions and create bias before a match has even started. Because we are asked to leave out bias/previous knowledge, I need to know as much as possible about your team in the easiest to understand way.

 

For the most part, I felt that you covered Kyp pretty well, however, I felt that the rest of your time was wasted on trying to disprove bias that didn't exist, or wasn't as prevalent as you thought. At least on my end, I felt that the bias that you were feeling, was actually people's reactions to the fact that you had not proved your teams competence. For the most part, I felt that this was the fault of Streen. For the most part, Streen is a complete unknown to most of us. I also felt that some of your arguments got lost in the sheer volume of your posts. These coupled together, made it difficult to gauge the power of your team.

 

I felt that you spent far to much time on Grevious, and not enough time on Jadus or the Wrath. You lost out on the chance to capitalize on the fact that Random has two characters that have a rather vague list of feats, or little information on feats. Jadus has only one or two impressive accolades, I saw you raise this argument, but you failed to follow through on how he could be defeated through lightsaber feats. I also think you failed to argue an effective 4v3 scenario, again mostly due to Streen being ignored. I'm honestly not even sure what he would do.

 

Advice:

-Keep your arguments shorter, and more precise. Sometimes you can get carried away/repeat yourself/ or try to debate things not important. Cleaner, more focused arguments would go a long way in making sure your characters don't get lost, and get the respect they deserve. You are an excellent debater, you just need a little fine tuning (pun intended).

-Drop Streen for someone else, or drop Streen and K'kruck for a larger credit character. Its not a good thing to bring unknowns into a match and try and prove there competence. Silenceo faced the same uphill battle trying to prove Jerec and Desann's abilities were up to par. You could stick with an NJO character, but dropping Streen would be a big boon to your team.

- Don't get so focused on one aspect of the debate, that you let your opponent control the flow of the debate. Your concerns about Grevious were warranted, but you spent too much time and energy on that one part, allowing Random to make arguments almost unopposed.

 

I really honestly thought your team was better, even with my distaste of the NJO era and lack of NJO knowledge.

 

 

 

Random

 

 

Your arguments were better overall, but you missed out on proving the Wrath's abilities. The Wrath was perhaps your biggest missed opportunity, and if you had better argued him, you would have won my vote. However, you did debate the other areas very well. I don't have much more to say, except that it would be in your favor to go deeper into characters with more vague accolades. It would also be better to make some safe assumptions based on game mechanics. You didn't address the Wrath's lightsaber forms, or force powers. I felt that your team has a major issue of not enough information. Jadus has very few accolades, of which they are situational and vague. The Wrath faces a similar, yet less extensive problem. Grevious is the only one with enough solid information to avoid being called out on it.

 

Advice:

-Try and avoid not debating a part of your team, you forgot about the Wrath, and lost my vote because of it.

-Try and find a replacement for Jadus. You argued him well enough, but he is going to be a major liability for you in the next round, regardless if you win or loose. My advice is to take Exar Kun if you can. He has a wealth of info, and is more capable than Jadus.

 

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Selenial

Selenial

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Ok here it is. I'm not doing an advice section because apparently Aurbere really wants to do it...

 

Lightsaber Combat

Really, I'm echoing everyone else's thoughts here. A solid amount of debating was done for Grievous, that awarded Randomname a good amount of "points" in a category like this. Unfortunately, he completely forgot about the Empire's Wrath, a character who should really have been explored more in this regard. The lack of exposure for Jadus also cost him dearly.

 

Tunewalker made more Lightsaber arguments than most people are willing to admit, brief as they were. While his team don't match up to Grievous and the Wrath, the debating Tune came across with and the lack of evidence put forward for the Wrath convinced me it was rather a moot point.

 

I award neither an advantage in this category, but the fact Tunewalker didn't lose substantially here is both surprising and impressive.

 

Force Abilities

Another tie. This should have been a victory for Tunewalker, but it was not, solely because of the way Tunewalker approached the battle as a whole. There was far too much arguing of eras and bias. While he listed a good amount of feats for his characters, his utter disregarding of Random's characters feats left him looking desperate and biased.

 

If you looked at Tune's arguments for his team, and Random's for his, I'd put Tunewalker ahead. But when they crossed and came to examining each other's teams, Random blew Tunewalker out of the water with what appeared to be a clear understanding of Tune's team as well as his own.

 

Teamwork & Tactics

 

Tunewalker pretty easily took this for me. His team would fight together well like all Jedi do, and while I cannot accept his arguments for a Battle Meld, the discussion around teamwork that he had while arguing it served to give him the win in this category. Whether he meant it to or not.

 

He did however lose a lot of his standing by lowballing the enemy team as much as humanly possible. Again something I did not look favorably on.

 

Handling the Environment

 

As always, this category seemed to be the one left in the dust. It was very rarely picked up on and nothing said about it was significant at all. Random takes it merely due to the fact Jadus' force abilities lend to him using the environment more anyway.

Miscellaneous

What I'd fit in this would be the Grievous vs Force argument.

 

That was handled atrociously. Tune, you spent the whole time arguing Grievous could be taken out with the force. Every time someone brought up the fact barely any Jedi in the PT era had taken him on like this, you resorted to arguing PIS or plot armor. There were numerous reasons as to why Grievous escaped the outrageous use of Force Powers, and the frank dismissal of these was nothing more than a ridiculous waste of time. Please avoid another spectacle like this in the future, as entertaining as it was to watch.

Conclusion & Verdict

Altogether both teams were well crafted and on the whole, debated well. I don't feel either of you have a hole in your team that I would suggest constitutes being removed. I'd suggest taking Grievous out but that may be my severe underrating of him as a character. In the end though, while both teams argued well, I feel a lack of focus on the Wrath's advantages played poorly for Random. Had you argued the Wrath's ability to stay in frontline combat, you could have argued Jadus' usage of Force attacks far more easily. Unfortunately, without that, Jadus also let you down.

 

It is for that reason among others that I declare Team Tunwalker the winner, moving on to the Quarter-Finals. Noting Randomname that you can still make it back into the tournament by winning the Runner’s Up Bracket.

Thoughts & Advice

*points at Aurbere*

 

Take it away, Aurbs :jawa_redface:

 

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cs_zoltan

cs_zoltan

Posted
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I don't feel either of you have a hole in your team that I would suggest constitutes being removed. I'd suggest taking Grievous out but that may be my severe underrating of him as a character.

 

I'd drop Jadus without a second thought, he's too expensive...

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Aurbere

Aurbere

Posted
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OK, Tune and Random, gonna give you some advice here.

 

@Random

 

 

You did fairly well here, but you did not use Wrath to the extent that you could have. Had you put the focus into him that you should have, you could have easily put him in the same level as Darth Maul. You need to put more focus on the Wrath. If you don't you're essentially down a third of your team. Another issue is that the lack of information on Jadus drags you down. You need to use a lot of logical inference and analysis in order to make it work, so you need to work on that.

 

Alternatively, you could switch Jadus out for Exar Kun. Kun has much more information on him and power scaling can put Kun on an extremely high level if you tried hard enough. I disagree with Sel suggesting to remove Grievous, so I'd say keep him since there are a ton of really great arguments.

 

 

@Tune

 

 

This is the big one. Tune, your argument style here turned this thread into a mess. Sel hit on this as well, but your approach to Random's team was horrendous. You can't simply disregard a character's feats for random reasons. Your approach to TOR characters requires work. For example, you dismissed some of the Wrath's feats for incredibly stupid reasons, IE calling characters featless or (in the case of Darth Baras) 'fat'. Many of the Wrath's kills are against incredibly powerful powerful opponents. Simply because they lack exposure does not diminish the magnitude of these feats. While you being allowed to do this can be placed at Random's feet, were you to do this against myself or Sel you would get absolutely nowhere. We would shut you down immediately. And that's why you can't do that. You can't get away with that, and it is unbecoming to lowball a character because you think they are featless.

 

Additionally, I must agree with Sel regarding your approach to Grievous and the Force. I don't think I need to say anything here.

 

To put it simply, stop dismissing characters. You're moving on to the next round, so you can't do that anymore.

 

 

Both of you take this advice and use it. We need to avoid threads like this in the future.

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tunewalker

tunewalker

Posted
Posted
OK, Tune and Random, gonna give you some advice here.

 

@Random

 

 

You did fairly well here, but you did not use Wrath to the extent that you could have. Had you put the focus into him that you should have, you could have easily put him in the same level as Darth Maul. You need to put more focus on the Wrath. If you don't you're essentially down a third of your team. Another issue is that the lack of information on Jadus drags you down. You need to use a lot of logical inference and analysis in order to make it work, so you need to work on that.

 

Alternatively, you could switch Jadus out for Exar Kun. Kun has much more information on him and power scaling can put Kun on an extremely high level if you tried hard enough. I disagree with Sel suggesting to remove Grievous, so I'd say keep him since there are a ton of really great arguments.

 

 

@Tune

 

 

This is the big one. Tune, your argument style here turned this thread into a mess. Sel hit on this as well, but your approach to Random's team was horrendous. You can't simply disregard a character's feats for random reasons. Your approach to TOR characters requires work. For example, you dismissed some of the Wrath's feats for incredibly stupid reasons, IE calling characters featless or (in the case of Darth Baras) 'fat'. Many of the Wrath's kills are against incredibly powerful powerful opponents. Simply because they lack exposure does not diminish the magnitude of these feats. While you being allowed to do this can be placed at Random's feet, were you to do this against myself or Sel you would get absolutely nowhere. We would shut you down immediately. And that's why you can't do that. You can't get away with that, and it is unbecoming to lowball a character because you think they are featless.

 

Additionally, I must agree with Sel regarding your approach to Grievous and the Force. I don't think I need to say anything here.

 

To put it simply, stop dismissing characters. You're moving on to the next round, so you can't do that anymore.

 

 

Both of you take this advice and use it. We need to avoid threads like this in the future.

 

One of those moments when I have to say, I wasnt trying to dismiss a character's feats all together. Its called reasonable doubt, and all I was doing was showing how some of those feats can be vague. The intent, and I did try to do this whether it was noticed or not, was to take both possible interpretations and show how my team could handle them. This is why I established K'kruhk's saber skills and Force powers before hand to show that he was just as powerful and skilled as Baras, but had the physical edge, which would allow him to preform better then Baras did vs the Wrath, every one ignored that though and just noticed me calling Baras Fat and thus physically limited in a saber duel... which he is..... by comparison to a similarly powerful or skilled person that isnt out of shape.

 

I think the main point I can take away from all of this is, be concise, if it looks like things are getting over looked or points are being missed show them again.... and finally when giving an alternate interpretation/ creating reasonable doubt, be sure to state that is the goal and be sure to cover the opponents interpretation as well as my own. Which I did a couple occassions but did not on others, which goes back to the concise part.

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Silenceo

Silenceo

Posted
Posted (edited)
Well congrats on winning Tune and thanks for the advice Sil and Aurbere! Ill be sure to make good use of it.

 

I have GOT to stop interfering with peoples posts, otherwise people may start to think I am Pantheistic in regards to this forum. :rolleyes:

Edited by Silenceo
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