SWTOR Duelling Tournament - Heats/Round 2B: Team Tunewalker vs Team Randomname

[raandomname]

Thank you, and basically this is all I am saying. I was not saying that the agent shot jadus x amount of times. only that they used their Training as an agent to utilize what ever tactics to trick Jadus into a trap, and by that logic with the help of the Force Leia may be capable of similar do to her life experience and training in things outside just simple force user tactics. Especially with the help of her team mates...

The agent didnt lure Jadus anywhere. Jadus still stands in the exactly same spot when the ray shield is activated. This too sugests that not much time passed before the shield was activated.

[Selenial]

Casual bump

 

Completely off topic: Posted a prologue to a fanfiction I've been writing, check it out, it's in my sig

[Silenceo]

Casual bump

 

Completely off topic: Posted a prologue to a fanfiction I've been writing, check it out, it's in my sig

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITGAdR77YEY

[raandomname]

Alright folks Im finally back to restart the debate. Sorry for taking so long.

 

Grievous vs Kyp

 

1. There is no reason to assume that Grievous would not have become more fomidable since Hypori. For example Shaak Ti, Foul Modama and Roron Corobb, who were backed up by around 2 squads of clones and a Senate Commando, saw running away and escaping from Grievous as their only choice.

2. Grievous was in deed damaged on Utapau, at least if Wookiee is to be believed. If anybody has a quuote for that, Id be thankful. Aside from the fact that Obi-wan was the duelist most suited to take on Grievous, due to his unparalleled mastery of Soresu.

 

The Dark Council

 

As this is relevant for both Jadus and the Wrath, I decided to make a distinct section about this. The idea that Sith can reach high positions such as membership of the Dark Council, only by having a large powerbase or being good politicians is inaccurate. Sidious is a perfect example of this. He was an ingenious planer, schemer, politician and strategist with a huge power base and wiped out the Jedi with nothing but a sentence. However, all of that would have been useless, if he hadnt also been an amazing fighter. All of his grand plans would have flown right out of the windowm if he hadnt been capable enough as a fighter to defeat Windu's strike team. And this is exactly how it is with other Sith. And the large amount of Sith that the Wrath and Darth Nox engage throughout their class stories show that to survive as a high ranking Sith, you need to be a formidable combatant. And as we have previously established, force user fights oftentimes are decided by light saber combat. Ofc there are exceptions where one force user is so much more powerful with the force that he can defeat his opponent with only the force, such as Nox vs. Thanaton or Traya vs. Jedi Council, but these seem to be more the exception then the rule. Due to this I think that it is pretty save to say that all members of the Dark Council have to be deadly and formidable fighters with both the force and a lightsaber.

 

Wrath vs K'kurhk

 

1. I see nothing in the video that implies that Grievous HAD TO use Trakata to defeat K'kurhk. He may just have been trying out a new technique or his combat analysis computer may have come to the conclusion that Trakata was the most effective way of taking out K'kurhk, that however does not mean that Trakata is the only way in which Grievous could have taken K'kurhk out.

2. http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4490121-0602091400-vJLVD.gif

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4498328-2564041496-vWzrN.gif

Seeing how these are fully trained Jedi knights, Im pretty sure that there is no non-force sensitive Whipid who could do something like this and even though K'kurhk can of course augment his strength with the force, I still have my doubts that he really is so much stronger then the Wrath. Also as I said previously, K'kurhk is pretty old, while the Wrath is in his physical prime. The Wrath also faced Talz on Hoth, and while iirc none of them were force users, it still shows some of his ability to defeat physically strong opponents. The Wrath also defeated large monsters such as the Sand Demon and the beast of Marka Ragnos that should also be massively strong.

 

Leia vs Jadus

 

1. I doesnt really matter whather Leia is the daughter of the Chosen One. Raw potential is useless, if it is never fully used. Throughout most of her live Leia was first and foremost a politician and diplomat and secondly a Jedi. While she dedicated more of her time to Jedi atuff in her later years, she stil dedicated less time to training then normal Jedi. She also started very late, afaik only strating her training for real at about 30.

2. Why is Jadus' tk feat being out of combat a bad thing? Throughout all of Star Wars people demonstrate their most impressive feats during combat, so if anything Jadus would only use more powerful attacks when he is fighting for his live.

3. The range of Jadus teleport really is more then sufficient. When you look at the bridge, then it is a distance of at least 10 meters. Why does it matter whether or not he can teleport across star systems? A dozen meters is more then sufficient.

4. You have multiple times critisized Jadus for having only one tk feat, but the issue with that argument is that this single feat is more impressive then anything that Leia has ever done. And to show you how much more powerful Jadus is, I see no other way, but to use some calcs to really show the full extent of the difference between Jadus' and Leia's tk feats. I dont really want to go down the "who lifted the bigger rock" road, but I feel that this is the only way to really show the power difference between the two.

 

First of all the volume of the Millennium Falcon:

34.37 x 25.61 x 8.27 = 7279.383839

 

Now the volume of the Harrower Class (estimated):

600 x 300 x 150 x 0.5 = 13500000

To account for the fact that Jadus held together only the parts of his ship that were not incinerated and likely used tutaminis on the part of the ship that was incinerated, Im gonna assume that he held together two thirds of his ship, while using tutaminis on the other incinerated part.

13500000 / 3 = 4500000

4500000 x 2 = 9000000

 

9000000 / 7279.383839 = 1236.36837939245

So going by these two feats Jadus is more then 1000 times as powerful as Leia

5. Leia isnt the most amazing duelist herself. Most of her lightsaber feats are against non-force users, which says little of her ability to defeat light saber users.

6. AFAIK she also has little experience fighting force users in general, so this may also hamper her ability to fight Jadus who already is a much more formidable force user.

8. If Jadus really protected one third of his ship using tutaminins, then he is the most powerful user of the ability that I am aware of and will be almost impossible for Leia to kill.

 

 

Aside from this, I think we should also address the myriads of other possible match-ups.

If Grievous does not happen to fight Kyp, both Jadus and Wrath should both be able to at least hold of Kyp.

In case of Wrath vs Kyp, it would be Jadus and Grievous vs. Streen, K'kurhk and Leia. Grievous should be able to defeat any one or two of these opponents, while Jadus should be able to defeat any of these opponents.

In case Jadus engages Kyp, it would be Wrath and Grievous vs. Streen, K'kurhk and Leia. Once again Grievous should be able to defeat any one or two of these opponents and the Wrath should be able to defeat Streen, K'kurhk, Leia or Streen and Leia.

[Selenial]

1. There is no reason to assume that Grievous would not have become more fomidable since Hypori. For example Shaak Ti, Foul Modama and Roron Corobb, who were backed up by around 2 squads of clones and a Senate Commando, saw running away and escaping from Grievous as their only choice.

 

While escorting a feeble chancellor who could not defend himself (in their eyes). They would have engaged him happily if it wasn't for Palpatine, but even the best combatants can't hold Grievous off diving for a target and executing him.

[tunewalker]

While escorting a feeble chancellor who could not defend himself (in their eyes). They would have engaged him happily if it wasn't for Palpatine, but even the best combatants can't hold Grievous off diving for a target and executing him.

 

Especially when he technically has help... how many magna droids was it that were shown. He still never fought a in good condition Shaak Ti.

 

 

Also on the Dark council thing. I wasnt saying they werent "powerful" by comparison's to their contemporaries, but remember even the best of the Dark council was still kind of Meh to Revan, which means that to be on the dark Council does not automatically make TOP grade, but high grade. The same can be said of streen, with the accolades from Luke. Its not Jadus that I am trying "discredit" but the NJO knights including people like Leia that I am trying to give the credit they deserve but rarely get.

[Aurbere]

Especially when he technically has help... how many magna droids was it that were shown. He still never fought a in good condition Shaak Ti.

 

 

Also on the Dark council thing. I wasnt saying they werent "powerful" by comparison's to their contemporaries, but remember even the best of the Dark council was still kind of Meh to Revan, which means that to be on the dark Council does not automatically make TOP grade, but high grade. The same can be said of streen, with the accolades from Luke. Its not Jadus that I am trying "discredit" but the NJO knights including people like Leia that I am trying to give the credit they deserve but rarely get.

 

Is that supposed to be bad?

[raandomname]

Especially when he technically has help... how many magna droids was it that were shown. He still never fought a in good condition Shaak Ti.

Yes, he had reinforcements, but those only showed up later. At first only Grievous appreared and yet fleeing was their first instinct.

 

Also if Grievous wanted to kill Palpatine, he would have had ample time to do so, when the two talked at the beginning. Grievous also never even attempted to kill the Chancellor throughout the fight, both suggesting to the Jedi that he was trying to capture him.

[raandomname]

One thing about teamwork: Grievous has actually fought highly in sync with his Magna Guards and occasionaly even with lesser droids. Although he is of course unacustomed to his allies in this case, it does show that he is capable of team work and wont be cutting down his own allies.

[Selenial]

Yes, he had reinforcements, but those only showed up later. At first only Grievous appreared and yet fleeing was their first instinct.

 

Also if Grievous wanted to kill Palpatine, he would have had ample time to do so, when the two talked at the beginning. Grievous also never even attempted to kill the Chancellor throughout the fight, both suggesting to the Jedi that he was trying to capture him.

Entirely missing the point. What if Grievous dashed for him in the middle of the fight and grabbed him? The clones couldn't fire and the Jedi would have to break off their attack or risk killing him.

 

Or what if Grievous wildly lunged and executed him? The point is, they didn't flee because they couldn't face him, and that's frankly a foolish notion. They fled because they couldn't risk Palpatine like that.

[tunewalker]

Entirely missing the point. What if Grievous dashed for him in the middle of the fight and grabbed him? The clones couldn't fire and the Jedi would have to break off their attack or risk killing him.

 

Or what if Grievous wildly lunged and executed him? The point is, they didn't flee because they couldn't face him, and that's frankly a foolish notion. They fled because they couldn't risk Palpatine like that.

 

And the 1 more not to mention, a battle like Hypori can leave some one mentally scarred, even a Jedi Master. Its possible Shaak Ti still had some fear and Greivous still had intimidation on his side. Given some of the other thigns he did and the way he showed up I would warrant to say he had Surprise on his side as well. All 3 elements Dooku said he needed.

 

That's the funny thing about the OCW, that one line describes greivous's abilities to a T. The one time he ran into an opponent that he did not have "fear, Surprise, and Intimidation" on his side was Windu, and Windu nearly killed him for it, I still think what we see all the other times were pushes and Windu's was the first crush, and I think the reason this happened was not because Shatter Point, but because of the Mental and Physical Situation that was presented. It was the first time a Force user had that kind of Distance on greivous (so greivous couldnt just close on him before he concentrated enough to crush) with out the Jedi being either Mentally unprepared (scared, intimidated or surprised thus not thinking 100% clearly) or physically unprepared (a physical exhaustion can cause issues with channeling some force abilities). Other times when they were mentally or physically prepared, Greivous was to close to attempt such an attack or the Jedi were distracted by other things.

 

 

Going to try to do the Conquest stuff real quick then get back to this and cover all the points on Leia. Some of them are good points, some of them are a bit wild, and some seem to be highly miss informed.

Edited July 23, 2015 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

Some of them are good points, some of them are a bit wild, and some seem to be highly miss informed.

http://media3.giphy.com/media/4yEHkilY9vmX6/giphy.gif

[Selenial]

I'm about ready to move this on.

 

Say what you have to say, ladies.

[tunewalker]

Alright folks Im finally back to restart the debate. Sorry for taking so long.

 

 

 

Wrath vs K'kurhk

 

1. I see nothing in the video that implies that Grievous HAD TO use Trakata to defeat K'kurhk. He may just have been trying out a new technique or his combat analysis computer may have come to the conclusion that Trakata was the most effective way of taking out K'kurhk, that however does not mean that Trakata is the only way in which Grievous could have taken K'kurhk out.

2. http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4490121-0602091400-vJLVD.gif

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4498328-2564041496-vWzrN.gif

Seeing how these are fully trained Jedi knights, Im pretty sure that there is no non-force sensitive Whipid who could do something like this and even though K'kurhk can of course augment his strength with the force, I still have my doubts that he really is so much stronger then the Wrath. Also as I said previously, K'kurhk is pretty old, while the Wrath is in his physical prime. The Wrath also faced Talz on Hoth, and while iirc none of them were force users, it still shows some of his ability to defeat physically strong opponents. The Wrath also defeated large monsters such as the Sand Demon and the beast of Marka Ragnos that should also be massively strong.

 

 

 

 

Going to cover little by little for right now.

 

First I dont think those shots of the Wrath are canon in anyway, they were part of a preview, and yes depending on the strength of the Jedi Knight, yes a Whipid could pull that kind of strength off. And those things you are mentioning yes he beat them, but not one of those things are the same caliber as K'kruhk. He became the Jedi Grand master and has enough power to pull Corvette sized ships out of the air. Remember that greivous did not decide to use any kind of trick against even opponents like Shaak Ti and Mundi, the fact that he did so in 1v1 with K'kruhk speaks volumes to K'kruhks power and more importantly skill as a saber duelist.

[tunewalker]

Leia vs Jadus

 

1. I doesnt really matter whather Leia is the daughter of the Chosen One. Raw potential is useless, if it is never fully used. Throughout most of her live Leia was first and foremost a politician and diplomat and secondly a Jedi. While she dedicated more of her time to Jedi atuff in her later years, she stil dedicated less time to training then normal Jedi. She also started very late, afaik only strating her training for real at about 30.

2. Why is Jadus' tk feat being out of combat a bad thing? Throughout all of Star Wars people demonstrate their most impressive feats during combat, so if anything Jadus would only use more powerful attacks when he is fighting for his live.

3. The range of Jadus teleport really is more then sufficient. When you look at the bridge, then it is a distance of at least 10 meters. Why does it matter whether or not he can teleport across star systems? A dozen meters is more then sufficient.

4. You have multiple times critisized Jadus for having only one tk feat, but the issue with that argument is that this single feat is more impressive then anything that Leia has ever done. And to show you how much more powerful Jadus is, I see no other way, but to use some calcs to really show the full extent of the difference between Jadus' and Leia's tk feats. I dont really want to go down the "who lifted the bigger rock" road, but I feel that this is the only way to really show the power difference between the two.

 

First of all the volume of the Millennium Falcon:

34.37 x 25.61 x 8.27 = 7279.383839

 

Now the volume of the Harrower Class (estimated):

600 x 300 x 150 x 0.5 = 13500000

To account for the fact that Jadus held together only the parts of his ship that were not incinerated and likely used tutaminis on the part of the ship that was incinerated, Im gonna assume that he held together two thirds of his ship, while using tutaminis on the other incinerated part.

13500000 / 3 = 4500000

4500000 x 2 = 9000000

 

9000000 / 7279.383839 = 1236.36837939245

So going by these two feats Jadus is more then 1000 times as powerful as Leia

5. Leia isnt the most amazing duelist herself. Most of her lightsaber feats are against non-force users, which says little of her ability to defeat light saber users.

6. AFAIK she also has little experience fighting force users in general, so this may also hamper her ability to fight Jadus who already is a much more formidable force user.

8. If Jadus really protected one third of his ship using tutaminins, then he is the most powerful user of the ability that I am aware of and will be almost impossible for Leia to kill.

 

 

Aside from this, I think we should also address the myriads of other possible match-ups.

 

 

1. Correct, and that achieved potential is why Jadus just cant take her

Yammosks could detect the Force, and Kyp maintained that Leia was as strong in the Force as he was. Han was not at all eased by the explanation.

 

Source: The New Jedi Order: The Unifying Force

I will cover how powerful this is a bit later, but the rest is actually an advantage for Leia not a disadvantage, especially against an opponent like Jadus who has been decieved and at least out maneuvered by similar tactics that she learned and used during the Rebellion era.

 

 

2. This is woefully inaccurate. The best feats happen out of combat because there is little to no distractions. Look at Galen Marek for just 1 example. When the person is not at risk of dealing with another saber duelist or they are not having to deflect scores of blaster fire they are much more capable of concentrating and lifting large things.

 

 

3. Actually it is significant as the only difference between a person able to teleport lightyears and meters is Power, by the fact that he shows limits here, it suggests far greater limits to his power then others would try to make believe.

 

 

4. So many things to pick apart here... where do I even begin. First these kinds of things are exactly why when you try to do the "who lifted the biggest rock" argument it just falls right the hell apart. By this logic Jadus would be 1000x more powerful then Darth Vader who's best feat is crushing an AT-AT as far as TK goes. This would make Jadus more then 500x more powerful then Sidious who is himself the most powerful sith lord of all time... thus that entire calculation and logic falls apart completely. I dont know how many sources need to say "size matters not" for people to understand, it was said in the NJO books, it was said in the movies, it was said in video games, and its been said by random jedi through out comics. If anything the difference in TIME makes it more impressive then the difference in size... but hey if we want to go into a mass measuring contest lets play....

 

First thing to note is again the quote above about Leia's power. The next thing to note is it is known that Leia struggled with Levitation based TK, so even though what she has shown looks impressive for some one of her level of power it is considered "her weak point" her speed, and telepathic capabilities being her "strong points" and then everything else is on par with some one of her caliber like Shields for example. But since we are dealing with TK we should take the person who has TK of his proper level of power that she has been compared to to get an ACTUAL accurate reading of her "true power"

 

Within the Force, within the broader range of senses it gave him, he tried to feel the presence of that void. He couldn't feel the Yuuzhan Vong or their creatures, but he could feel distortions in space, hard little nuggets of wrongness where there should be nothing.

 

He felt many of them, but didn't know which belonged to the interdictor, which to the coralskippers, and this rarefied sensory data didn't precisely translate to exact directions and distances. A void that felt far away could be from a coralskipper close at hand.

 

He armed a proton torpedo and fired it. He felt its physical presence as, in a matter of seconds, it closed the distance between him and the interdictor... and was swallowed by another void.

 

He felt it enter the void, felt which of the many singularities it was.

 

And he seized upon that void, directing all his Force abilities and discipline against it.

 

It was like using a thin metal rod to push a grounded landspeeder. Too much pressure and it would bend, becoming useless. Too little and nothing would happen. He had to find the right pressure to budge it, to set it into motion and keep it going that way...

 

For a moment, the only things in the universe were him, Jaina, and the void. He moved the void, turned it around, moved it back the other direction.

 

Then he was himself again, in the cockpit, watching the flank of the interdictor distort. The void had moved back and touched the interdictor, and now the interdictor elongated into it, extending what looked like a pliant extrusion of what he knew to be hardened yorik coral into the singularity.

 

Source: The New Jedi Order: Enemy Lines I: Rebel Dream

 

For those that dont know, black holes and these singularities have enough mass to create their own gravity. This is huge, the amount of mass each of these things has would likely be closer to the DEATH STAR then it is to a Star Destroyer or a Harrower. This is the level of power that Leia has, while she has not harnassed this in her TK feats as it is one of her noted "defficiencies" (if you call moving fighters and Holding together Frieghters "defficient"... which apparently the NJO do when talking about some one as powerful as Leia) if we were to do the math there it would be MILLIONS of times stronger. Which again to me does not make any sense. From what I have seen on these 2 characters if they were to swap era's Leia would be closer to Revan, while Jadus would be just that 1 rung down closer to Shaak Ti or others.

 

If people still arent buying these explinations there is a couple more things to consider about that quote. 1, its from Jadus himself which tends to lead to exaguration. The part of the ship WAS incinerated which means he didnt tutaminis it. And finally remember a P. Torp from a fighter was enough to cause a chain reaction to destroy the Death star, showing what a chain reaction can do in star wars. So technically all Jadus would have to do is probably stop about 5 inchs of an explosion and that could be quantified as "held the rest of the ship together with my power" as by stopping the chain reaction he did technically hold the whole thing together. This is where we point very hard to "unquantifiable feat is unquantifiable"

 

 

5. Completely inaccurate. And I already proved this multiple times. Saba called her a "match for any Jedi", we have her fighting and defeating Alema Rar (capable of defeating all but the "best of the Jedi" thus marking Leia as one of the best) on multiple occassions (with increased and Increased ease) we have her defeating a Dark Jedi long before she even began her training. We have her Speed blitzing a Sith in less then a second. We have her defeating Anakin Solo's Girlfriend/ Jacen Solo's Padawaan. She has proven time and again that Saba's words were completely accurate marking her as one of the Best duelists of the NJO. Especially when she adds in her marksman and martial arts skills.

 

Leia charged, firing her blaster pistol with one hand and activating her lightsaber with the other. There was no question of giving Alema a chance to escape later by working with her now-even if it meant letting the Chiss recover the bomb. Eliminating the Dark Nest was the core of Luke's plan, and the Twi'lek was a big part of that nest.

 

Alema rushed to meet the attack, igniting her own lightsaber, wielding it with her one good arm and easily deflecting the stream of bolts.They met at a large burl where a smaller limb converged with its parent, their lightsabers coming together in a sizzle of sparks and color.

 

"Leia, wo!"

 

The plea made Leia hesitate just long enough for Tahiri to block, then Leia was on her feet again, keeping Tahiri pinned against the strut, beating down her guard, slipping in knee and elbow strikes with a speed and ferocity that only a Barabel-trained fighter could achieve.

 

6. Second Verse same as the first, entirely inaccurate and I already showed this...

 

7. (dont know why you skipped 7 and went straight 8... but) again inaccurate, not to mention 0 proof of him "Tutaminis" a third of his ship.

[tunewalker]

 

Aside from this, I think we should also address the myriads of other possible match-ups.

If Grievous does not happen to fight Kyp, both Jadus and Wrath should both be able to at least hold of Kyp.

In case of Wrath vs Kyp, it would be Jadus and Grievous vs. Streen, K'kurhk and Leia. Grievous should be able to defeat any one or two of these opponents, while Jadus should be able to defeat any of these opponents.

In case Jadus engages Kyp, it would be Wrath and Grievous vs. Streen, K'kurhk and Leia. Once again Grievous should be able to defeat any one or two of these opponents and the Wrath should be able to defeat Streen, K'kurhk, Leia or Streen and Leia.

 

 

Wrath may be able to do to saber ACCOLADES (not feats) alone, Jadus has shown nothing on Kyp's caliber, especially not in saber combat. Black holes >>>>>>>>>>>> Harrower. And before people think size means more hten Mass.... I point to Yoda's lesson with Dooku. As I have shown with Leia she may be an even WORSE match up for Greivous to Face then Kyp. As Traya said there are things a Non-force sensitive learns to stay alive and her ingenuity may be even greater then Kyp's. She was a Rebel commander and responsible for a lot of victories against the more powerful AND more numerous GE. Her skills are more then enough to at least hold off Greivous, and again as one of hte "best of the Jedi" if he doesnt break her I see no reason he can beat her, as he has NEVER beaten a HIGH CALIBER Jedi with out breaking them either mentally or physically first. The Mind reading thing is still a Factor from streen and Streen is still capable of doing the same thing for any of hte match ups that I already claimed, from altering the terrain or adding a precise blade to just the right moment.

 

 

 

 

But really all of this is kind of moot. When it comes down to it, we are looking at Sith that dont work with other people let alone each other. They arent going to be paying attention to what their allies are doing, they arent going to be coming to each others aid, and they arent going to be thinking the battle as a whole. They are going to be focused at the 1 fighter in front of them, and as I have shown multiple times, a team like that can and will fall to a team perfectly in sync with one another especially when the players that ARE in sync are even CLOSE to their opponents. They may not be stupid, but that was never a requirement Anakin Skywalker isnt stupid, Obi-wan isnt stupid, Malgus isnt stupid, none of hte examples I have given were of stupid people, only ones that were not in sync with a single member of their team. They dont even need to "trip over" each other, just being manuevered into position to be taken advantage of is more then enough (Jadus had this with Cipher 9 already). Power is honestly irrelevant at this point, the terrain is known by my people and they have all the tools and mentality to use and abuse it, and not just 1 room of it, but the terrain in its entirety, inside outside it doesnt matter, they have shown the ability and know how to take advantage of their terrain or move to a terrain where their advantage is, and their opponents have shown to follow. They will coordinate who takes what opponent and shift accordingly, get help accordingly at the precise times they need it. They will control the flow of the battle through team work, and any argument of "brute force" is just not enough. The opponent MAY be stronger (highly doubtful), but they arent that much stronger that they can handle the team and terrain disadvantages ASSUMING they are stronger at all.

[tunewalker]

Closing argument (since I think that's what Sel is asking for)

 

 

"power" is only 1 measuring stick. My team has team work, terrain knowledge and terrain abusing history. My team also has a massive amount of versatility. More then just Saber duelists or TK they are versed in a wide array of abilities and can each add to each other beyond the Standard.

 

Kyp's experience fighting all kinds of unknown creatures and enemies in addition to just his raw skill and power. Streen's abilities with Telepathic skills, precise TK and AE. Leia's Experience as a Rebel Leader, a Marksman, and a Martial Artist trained both before becoming a Jedi and after by a Barabel fighter, in addition to her skills in Battle melds. and K'kruhks survival skills and Instincts, his ability to heal himself or his allies should he get the time. This is not a 1v1 fight, this is not 3 1v1 fights with 1 guy standing off to the side doing nothing. This is not even 3 1v1's with a guy that occassionaly jumps in. This is a 4v3 fight, and in such a case, team work matters, being in sync with team mates matters, protecting team mates matters, aligning an enemy so that a team mate can disrupt them FOR YOU matters, and finally versatility beyond "good saber duelist" or "powerful force user" matters. My team has this all in spades over my opponent. Jadus has TK but nothing else really known about him has been shown to be usable in a fight, Wrath has multiple saber styles sure, but beyond his saber and good force shields he doesnt show much else in the "versatility" department. And Greivous may be a skilled tactitian, but these days he only brings his sabers into combat, and with out mentally or physically breaking an opponent he has never beaten a high caliber Jedi Master in combat. He is an odd machine yes, but ultimately he is still just a saber duelist, and doesnt really add anything to his TEAM. That is a word I can not emphasis enough. Each of my people add something unique and powerful to the TEAM as a whole, and that's what is ultimately going to win the day.

 

Lets face it those who believe Jadus, the Wrath and/or greivous are just powerful enough to make all this moot are going to believe that I will never convince you that the best of the NJO can even begin compete with the best of the OR regardless of how questionable some of the OR feats are.

[Aurbere]

Lets face it those who believe Jadus, the Wrath and/or greivous are just powerful enough to make all this moot are going to believe that I will never convince you that the best of the NJO can even begin compete with the best of the OR regardless of how questionable some of the OR feats are.

 

This is a problem, imo. You're looking at this as a matter of era. It's not. It really never has been. Approach it from a character-by-character basis.

[ShadowMudkip]

This is a problem, imo. You're looking at this as a matter of era. It's not. It really never has been. Approach it from a character-by-character basis.

 

This^^^

 

Era's can't really be compared as a whole, especially when you are dealing with totally different force user orders.

[tunewalker]

This is a problem, imo. You're looking at this as a matter of era. It's not. It really never has been. Approach it from a character-by-character basis.

 

Character by character is nearly impossible when you dont have an ACTUAL basis for comparison, especially when speculation is thrown around as to what is and isnt a "good" force feat. Its my primary problem when looking at things character to character, especially when crossing era's. Leia, Kyp, Saba, Corran, Kyle have all proven that as hte best of the order they can even compete with opponents like Luke. Yet because they dont do 1 good out of combat TK feat, they are all of a sudden considered chump change, forgetting the fact that Vader never preformed a TK feat that good, but is still considered 80% of Sidious, forgetting the Fact that Revan himself never preformed a TK feat that well, but still proved he was on a different league. When the stick we are using to measure is PROVEN inaccurate within its own era, you cant just go "use this stick for cross era" it doesnt even work for its own era, why the hell would it work for cross era?

Edited July 24, 2015 by tunewalker

[Aurbere]

Character by character is nearly impossible when you dont have an ACTUAL basis for comparison, especially when speculation is thrown around as to what is and isnt a "good" force feat. Its my primary problem when looking at things character to character, especially when crossing era's. Leia, Kyp, Saba, Corran, Kyle have all proven that as hte best of the order they can even compete with opponents like Luke. Yet because they dont do 1 good out of combat TK feat, they are all of a sudden considered chump change, forgetting the fact that Vader never preformed a TK feat that good, but is still considered 80% of Sidious, forgetting the Fact that Revan himself never preformed a TK feat that well, but still proved he was on a different league. When the stick we are using to measure is PROVEN inaccurate within its own era, you cant just go "use this stick for cross era" it doesnt even work for its own era, why the hell would it work for cross era?

 

Well, I think you're over-exaggerating things. Who has called these characters chump change? And what speculation are we talking about here?

 

If it's mentioned in the debate, I didn't see it because I'm too busy to read it atm.

[raandomname]

I should have my final argument up tomorow, so that we can move on.

[tunewalker]

Well, I think you're over-exaggerating things. Who has called these characters chump change? And what speculation are we talking about here?

 

If it's mentioned in the debate, I didn't see it because I'm too busy to read it atm.

 

I think you missed the point.... the fact that proven stronger characters have "weaker" (AKA smaller) TK feats proves that using TK to assume anything about a characters over all abilities is just as improper as using AE.

[Aurbere]

I think you missed the point.... the fact that proven stronger characters have "weaker" (AKA smaller) TK feats proves that using TK to assume anything about a characters over all abilities is just as improper as using AE.

 

That's why you don't use just one ability, lol.

[Selenial]

I should have my final argument up tomorow, so that we can move on.

 

Sounds good, I'll wait until it's ready.