SWTOR Duelling Tournament - Heats/Round 2C: Team Beniboybling vs Team LadyKulvax

[LadyKulvax]

What? That's not how it happened, and your quote is totally out of context:

 

You are making the peculiar assumption that the statement of a few seconds only encompasses the section you provided, when in reality Meetra and Scourge killing the Guards is simultaneous to the exchange between Revan and Vitiate. 'It all happened in the space of only a few seconds', primary word being 'all'.

Edited July 27, 2015 by LadyKulvax

[Beniboybling]

By that logic the entire book happened in a few seconds...

[cs_zoltan]

At the same time, Meetra threw herself at the two guards standing in front of the doors to the throne room, her lightsaber materializing in her hand.

Ordinary soldiers would have been chopped down before they could even draw their weapons, but the Imperial Guard were not so easily felled. The first soldier met her charge and parried the first strike with his electrostaff, the resilient metal of his weapon deflecting the energy blade of the Jedi off to the side so that it carved a deep scar in the wall.

The second soldier leapt into the fray, forcing Meetra to fall back a step to absorb their coordinated attack.

 

...

 

T3 had followed him into the throne room, but Meetra and Scourge were still locked in battle with the guards in the hall outside.

 

...

 

While he and Meetra fought the quartet of guards, T3-M4 was busy sealing the doors.

 

...

 

“We have to help Revan!” Meetra shouted, and Scourge turned to see that she, too, had just finished off her opponents. “He needs us!”

 

This went on for 4 pages. Hardly a few seconds.

[LadyKulvax]

Whilst it had not happened in the exact same frame of time as Revan fought the Emperor, it was certainly not far longer as you ascribe it. The entire battle was very short, that was the observation Scourge made. It is a serious feat of skill and speed, for both Scourge and Meetra.

[LadyKulvax]

I will make a final counter post in the morning to correct things.

[LadyKulvax]

Grievous was described as moving faster than thought, a quantum event etc. but what speed feats do you refer to?

 

General Grievous has moved faster than any one person of the time bar the big two but that is irrelevant, it is nothing like lightspeed. The Magnaguards have proven incapable of overwhelming Jedi such as Obi-Wan Kenobi, Shaak Ti and Anakin Skywalker with their speed, there is no reason Meetra Surik would fair any lesser, especially given her powerful ability to boost her own already considerable Force Augmentation.

 

You realise a fraction of lightspeed > a millisecond yes?

 

You realise perceptions that freeze time are greater than both? You may also want to realise nanoseconds are faster than milliseconds. A nanosecond is a unit of time equal to one billionth of a second. One nanosecond*is to*one second*as one*second is to 31 years.

 

Now the important distinction to make here is that whilst she can percieve a nanosecond as her uppermost limit through moving meditation, she can only actively move at the speed of a millisecond in this state of mind. Just to clear that up.

 

That was not my point, my point was that what you've brought to light are average abilities.

 

They are far from it, this is honestly nothing more than a lowball on your part. Worse is that you ignore that these feats will only serve as indication of the minimum limits of speed that will take place here, given that Surik was operating under powered and in that place will have battle meld to greatly boost said speed and reflexes.

 

I fail to see why, care to elaborate? These claims Leneer is faster than Dooku seem farfetched.

 

The proof is in the quotes and requires no elaboration, you are merely not acknowledging it, Dooku retracted his blade at a speed pre-prime Kenobi deemed 'impossible'. By comparison Aryn's perception has seen time seemingly freeze before her.

 

Two sole encounters (if we mean as a duo) is not extensive of excessive to any stretch of the imagination.

 

That was only taking into account the later seasons of TCW, none of the prior, nor OCW, nor even legends content.

 

They played off his expectations, Dooku has no expectations here, other than the unexpected.

 

But what proof do you have to suggest Meetra and Leneer were capable of this tactic and used it frequently?

 

Which is not the point.

 

They will learn of this through their battle meld with Anakin and logically use this again.

 

Care to name a few? None come to mind.

 

He used Palpatine as bait on the Invisible Hand and set ray shield traps and Grievous there to capture them, it back fired and he was decapitated after falling into Palpatine's own trap.

 

I can think of quite a few individuals who surpass her... Dooku & Maul come to mind.

 

Though naturally you've proof she's a "strategic mastermind"?

 

*She masterminded the battles of Dxun, Serroco, Malachor V and more, controlling over half the Republic navy

throughout the Mandalorian Wars.

*She was taught Jedi assassination tactics by Atton Rand and HK-47.

*She led the campaign of the Lost Jedi in the Dark Wars.

*She masterminded the breaking of the siege of Iziz city.

*She masterminded the defense of Khoonda against veteran Mandalorians and veterans of the Sith's elite cast.

*She has fought through two legions of elite Sith and four fully fledged Dark Lords of the Sith in back to back battles for

Telos IV and Malachor V, outwitting the Sith repeatedly.

 

Dooku and Maul combined don't have that level of command experience in battle, nor from the frontlines. This is reinforced by the crucial experience of Anakin Skywalker, Aryn's reflexes and focus, and Meetra's own unmatched precognitive abilities aiding the entire team.

 

That's hardly a valid form of argument. Canon is canon.

 

My argument is not based on that, Anakin has regularly used TK in the midst of battle and won't be foolish enough to hold back here.

 

And yet you've failed to provide any facts that suggest they are too fast for him.

 

Yes I have you simply refuse to acknowledge them as being superior to his own.

 

And as I explained, Dooku will be there to cover for him, if Maul is not already by his brother's side.

 

Unless Dooku has his own Jedi to deal with, which he will and any distraction could be fatal against these opponents, just like with Maul.

 

You missed the point, the point is that Maul's performance against Sidious when enraged was largely static, despite the fact Sidious became notably more powerful, which can only mean Maul increased in power to the same degree.

 

Except Sidious wasn't going all-out in either display, which makes this all a moot point, Maul isn't contending with Sidious' speed which was described as a blur moving in and out of existence. Anakin Skywalker however quadrupled(being conservative) in power, skill and speed since matching Jinn's tier of speed.

 

The description says what it says, your additions are your own and skewed to support your stance.

 

Fact is Anakin constantly tapping in to his anger to fuel his power is favoring his anger as a weapon, that anger being of the dark side, he therefore favours the dark side, it's that simple.

 

And I'd add that mere differences in opinion and personality where enough to set others against the Exile:

 

 

Whatever the other Padawans see her do they are quick to do the same, other students dislike her intensely.

 

The Exile's ability to bond with others was a double edged sword, and a mere difference in personality was enough to case this alienation that is described. Anakin is already opposed to the Exile in many ways, his dependency on anger will be more than enough to cause alienation.

 

The point concerning Leneer that she is suspectible to her emotions, combined with the fact that she is heavily effected by the emotions of her around them, and she is likely to find herself clouded by anger.

 

Anakin getting angry every now and then is hardly evidence that he actively uses the Dark Side of the Force and even favors it, which is exactly what is stated: The Dark Side, not anger, the Dark Side.

 

Anger leads to the Dark Side if left unchecked, are Jinn, Windu and Fisto now Dark Siders as well? Because that is precisely the logic you are using right now. There is an enormous difference which you blatantly wave away here.

 

Clouded by anger because her master was murdered by a Sith Lord, yet despite that Sith Lord's own goading she returned from that path and found herself again, rejecting anger before her fall. This is the incarnation we are debating here, she already faced the Dark Side and overcame it. Furthermore Meetra Surik's inspiring presence will bathe both Leneer and Skywalker with the Light Side of the Force and reinforce their ideals, especially with Battle Meld in play.

[LadyKulvax]

Well that was my final counter-post, if Beni is happy to end this then so am I, we have both made our points as well as we are going to make them, carrying on would be simply repeating the previous stances, as we have already started doing.

 

Let our arguments stand for themselves in the eyes of the observers, may the best dwarf win.

[Beniboybling]

I agree.

[Aurbere]

Before anything, however, we need to clear up something. I don't think Anakin has experience leading a Meld. So how is he supposed to do so here? Edited July 28, 2015 by Aurbere

[LadyKulvax]

He was taught the technique far before his prime and had years to perfect it, besides he is merely relaying the technique to Meetra, an already powerful master of techniques such as Sever Force and Battle Meditation. Furthermore she has mountains of experience leading a very similar technique with Kreia, etc.. as a party leader. She is pretty much tailor made for Battle Meld. Edited July 28, 2015 by LadyKulvax

[Rhyltran]

So I'm new to all of this but I read the entire thread. Can the audience vote for who's side they agree with or is there pre-set judges? Just curious. Edited July 28, 2015 by Rhyltran

[cs_zoltan]

So I'm new to all of this but I read the entire thread. Can the audience vote for who's side they agree with or is there pre-set judges? Just curious.

 

You can vote after the first stage.

[tunewalker]

So I'm new to all of this but I read the entire thread. Can the audience vote for who's side they agree with or is there pre-set judges? Just curious.

 

The audience votes at the time when the judges allow and then the Judges take votes into consideration and award the winner. Until then its "debater vs debater" what ever the hell that means at this point.

[Selenial]

Whatever the other Padawans see her do they are quick to do the same, other students dislike her intensely.

 

The Exile's ability to bond with others was a double edged sword, and a mere difference in personality was enough to case this alienation that is described. Anakin is already opposed to the Exile in many ways, his dependency on anger will be more than enough to cause alienation.

 

The point concerning Leneer that she is suspectible to her emotions, combined with the fact that she is heavily effected by the emotions of her around them, and she is likely to find herself clouded by anger.[/color]

 

*checks watch*

 

It's about *********** time.

Edited July 28, 2015 by Selenial

[LadyKulvax]

Not that it mattered much, no one on her team is a Dark Sider.

[Selenial]

Not that it mattered much, no one on her team is a Dark Sider.

 

Neither were those Jedi.

[LadyKulvax]

Yes but that is literally one case compared to where entire armies and navies loyally followed her lead, as did her entire party. So a few students supposedly disliked her because of her abilities, these are three veteran Jedi loyal to precisely the same cause, with her inspirational and bonding abilities the point is nullified.

 

Not to mention that is Vrook's biased opinion, a bias he has held against her on every single occasion, something Kavar even mocks, Vrook also claimed that Meetra has average ability yet Revan states she was a very powerful Jedi back in the Mandalorian Wars, something many others repeated.

 

Infact in sharing thoughts between the three, they would very likely find unity amongst themselves for the way each of them followed the path they thought was right, despite disobedience to the Jedi Council.

 

I thought this debate was over anyway, Aurbere had one last question which i answered.

Edited July 29, 2015 by LadyKulvax

[Selenial]

Yes but that is literally one case amongst far more where entire armies and navies loyally followed her lead, as did her entire party. This is barely an argument, so a few petulant students disliked her because of her abilities, that equates to next to nothing. These are three well experienced Jedi loyal to precisely the same cause, with her inspirational and bonding abilities your point is practically moot.

 

I thought this debate was over anyway, Aurbere had one last question which i answered.

 

Except any of the party that disagreed with her actions were pushed into Darkness in an attempt to subvert her. Not to mention, "other students dislike her intensely" is not, by any means, one case.

 

They're loyal to the same cause, so were those Jedi. The fact of the matter is, Anakin is not a Jedi to be led. Leneer is also a lone ranger. Anakin's an intensely aggressive fighter, Surik is not. Leneer is an aggressive fighter, Surik is not.

 

Not to mention your arguments regarding Battle Meld, if they're not sharing one cohesive mind it'll knock them out or tear them apart. These 3 will not by any means have a cohesive mind.

[LadyKulvax]

Who would they be? Because Atton, Mira, Brianna, Mical, Visas, Bao-Dur and T3-M4 all supported her light side actions, Traya is Traya and disagreed either way, yet maintains her faith in her. Hk-47 and Canderous do not disagree with her actions, only supported her if she were either cruel or honorable.

 

Actually those students, if Vrook is even being neutral about the matter, probably disliked her wanting to help the Republic against the Jedi High Council's wishes.

 

Source Surik is not an aggressive fighter? She is often described as a lead from the front general and actively attacks the Sith, infact in going with Revan she actively proved her offensive fighting style and proves it again in the novel.

 

They will be cohesive because the Exile's ability to unify them and inspire them with the Light Side is precisely what is needed.

 

Furthermore this entire argument is based on a prolonged experience with her, which isn't happening here, this is just a battle, they have no preconcieved notions regarding her.

 

P.S. May i point out that this is quite obviously an argument on your part, certainly not fact checking.

Edited July 29, 2015 by LadyKulvax

[Selenial]

P.S. May i point out that this is quite obviously an argument on your part, certainly not fact checking.

 

It's fact checking your baseless and misleading dismissal of a valid argument, actually. But I'll stop here, I doubt it's going to make a difference to anyone's verdict.

[LadyKulvax]

Nevermind, I don't see the point, I guessed how the votes would go days ago. Edited July 29, 2015 by LadyKulvax

[MarcheseAMM]

Nevermind, I don't see the point, I guessed how the votes would go days ago.

 

You were fully aware of your limitations, restrictions, failure, weakness, and inferiority to Beni for a while? That is quite the impressive foresight feat you got there. Perhaps better than anything Nomi ever pulled (unless the Limited gloss print with foreward from Chris Avellone has something I'm not aware about?).

Edited July 29, 2015 by MarcheseAMM

[LadyKulvax]

Far too late Anthony, your petulant trolling won't derail a debate that is already over.

[MarcheseAMM]

Far too late Anthony, your petulant trolling won't derail a debate that is already over.

The thread was ruined the moment you stepped onto the ring, my dear.

 

And I'm sorry to inform you it was not the battle location of the glorious Darth Sion vs Nomi Sunrider spectacle.

 

Having read more about Sunrider I am getting the feeling she is the most powerful Jedi of the entire era.

 

"As the Grand Master of the order she would spend her days not deliberating in chambers or meditating on the power of theForce but instead hunting down the remains of the Sith, the cults and brptherhoods that formed after Kun's imprisonment, she knew that left unchecked yet another Dark Lord would rise in their place.

 

Eventually towards the end of her life after decades of no contact to the order, she returned to only her daughter Vima and warned her of a dark wheel turning, a vast blackness hiding behind the ruins of the Old Sith Empire, she felt in her gut that many wars would follow and so she created the council and the three paths and much more, hoping that an organised Jedi Order could survive the chaos to come." - Tales of the Jedi companion

 

"Darkly he proclaimed 'I am Sion, Lord of Pain and Lord of the Sith and you cannot kill me.' instead of exchanging words with the abomination before her, she simply attempted to cut the beast off from the Force but she realised this monster had become the Dark Side and such techniques would not work. Ziost was their battleground, time and again she would cut him down and once more he would rise anew. Aided by his minions the fight lasted three nights, despite the freezing temperatures and the well of darkness swirling through the collapsing fortresses, she would cut down more and more Dark Jedi until finally when Sion realised this engagement was one he could not win, he fled and no matter how much she chased him he would not be found again." - Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide Collector's Edition

 

"Sunrider became a legendary name among the Order, her connection to the Cosmic Force was vast and wide, she would often speak of how she felt the stars burning in her mind, how she felt the trillions in her heart but one planet in all the skies haunted her till her last breath, a planet under a massive burning and raging sun, one man above all concerned her most, her only true equal amongst the Sith Lords, Exar Kun." - Tionne

 

"Among all the Jedi it would be Grand Master Sunrider whom left her mark on the galaxy, she was a beacon of light holding back the Darkness, a vast darkness to consume the galaxy, when finally she passed away, the light went out clouded in darkness, the galaxy had changed." - KotOR CG

 

EDIT: oh wait...

 

Originally posted by LadyKulvax

So I decided to come over and explain myself:

 

I've been debating over at swtor.com since Oct 2008, on a few different profiles and have debated along with some of the greatest, including Professor Walsh, Niarcmorn and others, I saw Niarcmorn post a few quotes regarding Revan which I found interesting, more interesting were his apparent source the Collector's Edtion.

 

So I wondered exactly where these came from and what book this was, I soon found an archive of some of the much older Star Wars and the scans convinced me that this must be a proper source. Ever since then with a combination of a scan or two and the use by Niarcmorn(whom I have long held in regard as the best Star Wars debater), I believed these to be utterly true.

 

So I used them not assuming that this could possibly be false, I dug myself too deep and decided to stick by them because to me, THIS was the Revan and Exile I thought they should have been.

 

Now it's gotten to the point where I've been painted as a forger, a perpetual liar and worse my reputation has been completely shot to pieces, people whom I've known for years on swtor.com have began to doubt me and my arguments.

 

I might have been able to handle this, had it not been for the perpetual trolling, humiliation and obvious enjoyment of this forum's user DarthAnt66. Not only did he stalk me across the forums but also decided to take it upon himself to use ME as his personal joke and spread this over to other users here.

 

Were the quotes I used groundless? yes they were, I'd been led to believe otherwise and couldn't imagine them being anything but real. I noticed however that the archives I had been using got shut down three weeks back.

 

This started to make me doubt the reality of these quotes, but due to Ant's perpetual need to crap all over my name at any time he saw fit I thought **** THAT, I am not letting some high school kid Cartman his way all over my name, I hoped that all this had passed and was done with but noooooooope, he decided to come back, conveniently when MY Kaggath match turns up. Derailment 101 began.

 

Frankly it stressed me out alot more than I should have let it and despite the respectable work Ant himself has done, the way he treated me showed me that absolutely NOTHING could stop him.

 

I don't expect this post will either but at least some of my reputation might be restored by it.

 

I apologise to everyone I have insulted including Supremeskills and LeGenD, as well as any I might be forgetting.

 

But more importantly, for me anyway, the users from my forum, my home, where I can debate my favourite galaxy far far away without the stress of family life. Sorry Aurbere, Silenceo, Beniboybling, Selenial, Wolfninjajedi, Tunewalker, SupremeSkills, Warren and all the rest of you, I provided false information and worse I was too arrogant and stubborn to back down on it.

 

I don't expect you guys here to give a crap but I thought this would be a fitting place to make my statement.

Edited July 29, 2015 by MarcheseAMM

[LadyKulvax]

Thanks for doing me a favor little boy, this should be all the proof Woods requires.