SWTOR Duelling Tournament - Heats/Round 2C: Team Beniboybling vs Team LadyKulvax

[Beniboybling]

Did you get my PM Sel?

[Aurbere]

Bawmp.

[Selenial]

Bawmp.

Query: Am I allowed to vote for Rayla simply because Beni's not posting an argument that should have been on page 1?

[Aurbere]

Query: Am I allowed to vote for Rayla simply because Beni's not posting an argument that should have been on page 1?

 

Hmm, I'd prefer you don't vote using your own outside knowledge, but I'll let you vote at your discretion.

[Beniboybling]

I think it might be time to call this, before everyone forgets the arguments that were made...

[LadyKulvax]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/Star_Trek_-_In_Before_the_Lock.gif

[cs_zoltan]

That all? I'd like to hear Rayla's rebutal on Beni's scenarios...

[LadyKulvax]

I will have a major post up later today, been clogged with work so haven't been online in days.

[LadyKulvax]

Whilst Count Dooku is a very impressive combatant, you are not taking into account that these are highly adaptable Jedi knights whom have fought a wider array of Sith Lords than Dooku has ever even met.

 

All three of these are superior combatants to Obi-Wan Kenobi, Obi-Wan has shown a weakness to the offensive Force displays of very powerful Sith, an advantage Dooku heavily exploited, by extension Savage Oppress also suffered this same weakness, which Dooku heavily abused to survive the 2 on 1 assault. Yet this is not an advantage that Dooku is afforded here by any means, he is not overpowering the Exile through the Force nor is he doing what Malgus failed repeatedly to perform against Leneer.

 

The reflexes and precognition that Meetra and Aryn have displayed are more than capable of applying extrene pressure on Dooku's defenses, something he simply can't survive long against:

 

Meetra has reflexes scaled down to half a second, as well as speed enough to near blitz elite Imperial Guardsmen, it is even stated that Meetra could kill someone lesser than an Imperial Guardsmen before said opponent could even draw their weapon.

 

Aryn Leneer has the capability to move in a millisecond as if a full minute transpired, has ran a 100 meters in the span of time it took a trained soldier to activate his infrared and has moved/reacted faster than even Darth Malgus can.

 

Another neglected point is that Count Dooku has extensive experience dealing with Anakin and Obi-Wan, his Makashi is also perfectly suited to taking apart Form III: Soresu, his advantages in combat against them also do not end there as he typically had extensive preparation for each fight.

 

In this matter the 'arena' once again aids the Jedi, in an enclosed space he will be hard pressed to dodge against such fast and strong opponents such as these two, much as he struggled to do against Ventress and Opress, yet these two are even faster than they are and are not going to babble like children amongst themselves during the fight.

 

The Jedi will win, one of them would provide an excellent challenge, together they are just far too high of a quality for Dooku to possibly win against.

 

If Anakin Skywalker is forced to face the Maul brothers, which is a massive 'if', then the environment will work in his favor quite drastically, the Maul brothers require wide open space to perform properly in the manner you describe. In an enclosed space they do not perform well, due to an enclosed area Obi-Wan Kenobi was able to defeat them soundly, immolating Savage Opress and forced them to flee.

 

Anakin Skywalker is Obi-Wan Kenobi's superior in every manner and is a far greater offensive threat, he can remove Savage with the Force and focus down Maul. Anakin Skywalker's telekinesis has twice sent Count Dooku flying, Oppress isn't even on Dooku's tier in terms of the Force and Force defenses, this makes Oppress a less than reliable form of support for his brother when Anakin is capable of removing him from the fight.

 

Anakin Skywalker is also undeniably the top duelist in this battle, his powers are beyond Dooku's and by extension Maul's, he has an unmatched ferocity that Maul has never faced. To Dooku, Anakin appeared as nothing more than an electric blue haze throughout the room, he couldn't properly percieve him, this is a feat that Darth Maul cannot surpass nor match.

 

Keep in mind that before the Clone Wars, during Anakin's earliest years as a Padawan, he was capable of matching the best speed of Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn whom held his own against Darth Maul in every aspect of their duel before tiring and perishing. Anakin Skywalker became many many times more powerful and faster than that by the Revenge of the Sith, can the same be said of season 7 Darth Maul compared to TPM Maul? I see no evidence to make such a conclusion.

 

By contrast far after these years Anakin was somewhat holding his own against the Count in Attack of the Clones, over three years later Dooku is far outmatched in terms of speed and strength against Anakin. Even between Dark Disciple and Revenge of the Sith there is marked improvement, Anakin goes from stalemating Dooku to again overwhelming him.

 

Savage Opress is by extension totally out of his depth against a 'meteoric' offensive like Anakin Skywalker's, it is a speed and ferocity that overwhelmed even Dooku, Opress cannot keep up with that. This is most emphasised in this type of area, a small multi-tiered throne room with many obstacles and incredibly dangerous pitfalls where focusing down Anakin is not something the Maul brothers can accomplish but Anakin can by contrast divide and conquer.

 

But this is the scenario Beni assumes will take place for his benefit, a larger three versus three contest is far more likely given the number of combatants and the lack of space available in such a small room, taking notice that more than half of it is in-fact a shaft will make it nearly impossible for smaller duels to avoid one another. This is where the Jedi have an exceptional advantage, because in this type of compact all-out brawl the most important survival attributes are reflexes, reaction time, speed, stamina and smarts. Where Count Dooku and Darth Maul can certainly match the Jedi Knights in this regard for a time, Opress simply can't.

 

Opress cannot handle the chosen one moving faster than he can see. He cannot match Aryn Leneer whom is capable of moving faster than Darth Malgus and Surik whom before her prime, in the Trayus Core an 'immense geyser of Dark Side energy', could match Traya and three lightsabers for speed and win, the same Traya who could dodge the best efforts of the Exile's trained Jedi apprentices without even taking a step, one of whom stomped five Echani handmaidens in three seconds.

 

Opress whilst powerful and skilled, whilst capable of defeating the likes of Jedi Council member Master Adi Gallia in combat, is not however on the same tier as either his allies or enemies in this particular contest, all of whom are certainly far above Adi or dare i say even Ventress.

[Beniboybling]

 

Expect my response shortly.

[LadyKulvax]

 

This is only the beginning, roughly half of my over-all arguments, expect much more to, as you say, 'prove' certain things.

[Beniboybling]

 

If that's the case then I shall put a little more time and effort into my response.

[cs_zoltan]

https://youtu.be/eYT3ctPuVRw?t=1m13s

 

Now it's getting interesting.

[LadyKulvax]

The Jedi Exile's passive supporting powers:

 

The Jedi Exile Meetra Surik's presence in the Force bathes other Jedi in the Light, inspiring them to greater feats in combat:

 

Inspire Followers is also your's, bathing your team in light and increasing their combat potential.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

 

This power increases the morale and effectiveness of the Jedi's allies in battle.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

 

Meetra is an enlightened Jedi Master, having unlocked and harnessed fully the Light Side of the Force:

 

The feat is Light Side Enlightenment, a nebulous improvement to your teammates’ morale, which brings like-minded individuals to you but alienates those favoring the dark side.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

 

The Jedi Exile can use three Force techniques simultaneously, specifically Valor, Barrier and Aura in the midst of battle to change the outcome, Surik being an enlightened master of the Force makes it very effective:

 

Force Aura, Force Valor, and Force Barrier applied in combination can turn the tide of any battle; this becomes even more effective when you[Meetra Surik] learn Force Enlightenment.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

 

The Exile is capable of using defensive powers and Battle Meditation in battle:

 

For defense, Energy Resistance and Battle Meditation are ideal. Like Force Valor and similar abilities, these powers make your[Meetra Surik's] party stronger and tougher, tilting the odds greatly in your[Meetra Surik's] favor.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

 

The Exile can use the revitalise technique to aid a knocked out or near death ally back to health:

 

This power allows the*Jedi*to rekindle the life energies of any fallen ally.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

 

The Exile can use the Force technique Vital Transfer to heal and re-energise allies:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/12/124590/3812421-3811514-8236219015-captu%2Bvital+transfer.png

 

Meetra Surik as a Jedi Master is able to achieve the greatest techniques of the Force:

 

"[Revan and Meetra Surik] were clearly Jedi Masters based on their accomplishments, and I'm sure at some point they would have been recognized by the Order as such."

-Drew Karpyshyn

 

"This form is considered the pinnacle of Force Mastery."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

 

"This is among one of the greatest techniques of the Jedi Master - yet when one has seen all that you have, it is such a simple thing, you may wonder why you did not notice it before."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

 

In conclusion:

 

Meetra Surik was an enlightened master of the Light Side of the Force, her very presence and aura in the Force inspires other Jedi to great feats and instead of using offensive Force powers, she passively and proactively supports her allies with Jedi Force techniques to aid them to victory in battle, an intensely powerful boost to any team. In this case she will be pushing and effectively amplifying herself and her two very powerful team mates towards a victory in this contest. It is an exceptional advantage that the Sith have no counter or match for.

[Aurbere]

Well, since the other matches are wrapping up, I'm going to have to ask you two to move things along. If there are any arguments you guys need to make, do so as soon as you are able.

 

I don't want another of my matches to keep holding up the tournament, lol

[LadyKulvax]

Building off of the previous post concerning the support Meetra provides to her team we have this perfect fit:

 

Anakin Skywalker:

 

Battle Meld:

 

Anakin Skywalker was taught the gift of Battle Meld by Jedi Master Jorus C'baoth:

 

"Tell me, Master Skywalker, has Master Kenobi ever spoken to you of the Jedi meld?", "I don't think so, what does it do?", "It permits a group of Jedi to connect their minds so closely as to act as a single person."

-Outbound Flight

 

This is an incredibly useful Force technique and would greatly reflect the Force bond that would develop in battle between the three through Meetra. Anakin having learnt this at such a young and inexperienced age shows that by Revenge of the Sith he would be far more proficient in the technique's usage.

 

With Meetra Surik's inspiring presence and Force support, Anakin Skywalker can more easily achieve a synergy between the three of them and greatly enhance their efforts in this battle, negating the notion that these Jedi will suffer from poor teamwork. On the contrary they will be a far more cohesive unit than their enemies.

 

Perhaps a most interesting note here is that Meetra Surik learns near instantaneously from merely observing the techniques of others, by observing Skywalker's use of the Force Meld and joining her mind with his, she can herself apply this technique in the midst of this battle. This is useful in many ways but specifically three:

 

1.By Anakin joining his mind with his fellow Jedi he can straight away impart his knowledge of their opponents and gain an instant advantage of information over the Dark Siders, giving Meetra and Aryn an edge over Dooku, Maul and Savage all of whom have no knowledge of either of the two.

 

2.Meetra Surik's expertise in the sphere of strategy, tactics and massed lightsaber combat against Dark Jedi/Sith can give them an effective means of developing a strategy to take the Dark Siders down in this battle.

 

3.Aryn Leneer's part in this is especially useful, because of her unmatched talents in Force Empathy and Moving Meditation, she can greatly enhance the focus of her team-mates in combat, effectively allowing all three to engage in far faster combat speeds and reflexes than normal, because of Meetra's exceptional reserves of Force energy they will be able to sustain this for a prolonged time in combat.

 

In conclusion:

 

The Jedi team have a great edge in synergy, speed and strategy because of these combined team efforts. Take into account my previous post concerning Meetra Surik's support and we have a team which will be fighting at levels much higher than their norm and very importantly in perfect unison with one another throughout the contest.

 

This is not something that the enemy team have any answers for.

Edited July 26, 2015 by LadyKulvax

[Beniboybling]

 

First off let's begin with the claims made against Dooku, and explain why they are false.

 

1. Dooku is dependent on Force-based attacks to manage multiple opponents.

 

A false exaggeration. I remind us again of this engagement in which Dooku does not employ a single Force-based attack and yet is still able to contend with both Anakin and Kenobi but manipulating the flow of the battle and keeping them off-balance. The number of times I've expressed the many ways in which Dooku can control the battlefield other than with the Force is verging on ad nauseam - so I'll allow that lightsaber duel to jog everyone's memory, and again highlight how his means prove effective against both Kenobi and much more powerful Skywalker both.

 

But it is true that Dooku's Force powers will prove ineffective against any one of his adversaries? No it's not.

 

Dooku may not be able to ragdoll his opponents at missile like speeds a la Kenobi but I'd remind everyone that it doesn't take a great deal to knock someone down the the Force. Pressurised air particles are just as difficult to defend against as any physical projectile, and again if Kanan and Ezra are able to bowl Vader over with a shove, Dooku, who has telekinetically dominated the likes of Ventress, Vos and indeed Kenobi with ease, will be more than capable.

 

2. The Exile and Leneer's speed and reflexes will push Dooku to his limits.

 

Another exaggeration, Lady is putting far too much stock in ultimately generic descriptions of speed. So the Exile has split second reflexes? Great, that doesn't even put on level with Grievous' magnaguards:

Three MagnaGuards, each with a double-ended weapon that generated an energy field impervious to lightsabers, each with reflexes that operated near lightspeed, each with hypersophisticated heuristic combat algorithms that enabled it to learn from experience and adapt its tactics instantly to any situation...

 

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith novelisation

Or Kenobi for that matter, whose reflexes were described as faster than lightspeed:

... the two Jedi pulled their ships through perfectly mirrored rolls that sent them streaking head-on for each other from opposite ends of a vast Republic cruiser. For merely human pilots, this would be suicide. By the time you can see your partner's starfighter streaking toward you at a respectable fraction of lightspeed, it's already too late for your merely human reflexes to react.

 

But these particular pilots were far from merely human.

 

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith novelisation

Dooku is for the record faster than both of them, and laughs at the Exile's ability to defeat a pair of Imperial guardsmen in the time it took for Revan to collapse an archway, approach the Emperor, exchange blows and be ultimately subdued. Which for the record is not a blitz, its a prolonged engagement. He is not going to be pressed by her speed.

 

As for Leneer, though running away fast would be the preferable course of action, her ability to do so is unfortunately not an option in a fight to the death. And being able to move faster than a heavily armored Djem So duellist who places strength over speed - whom she nonetheless failed to overwhelm - is hardly compelling proof she'd prove too much for a speed-orientated duellist who has been able to evade the likes of Anakin and Ventress unarmed.

 

In fact, let us get a handle on just how exceptional Dooku's speed is. He's been described as impossibly fast:

Obi-Wan understood immediately, even before he noted Anakin’s blue blade coming up and over the other way-the green blade would push the Count’s lightsaber out of the way, clearing the path for the victorious strike!

 

But Dooku retracted impossibly fast, and Anakin’s down-cutting green blade hit nothing but air.

 

--Taken from Attack of the Clones novelisation

And he proved imperceptible to AoTC Kenobi just a few years before their final confrontation:

As Obi-Wan gave ground, Dooku quickened the pace. His every move was economical and elegant; his lightsaber seemed to be everywhere. Obi-Wan remembered Jocasta Nu telling him, With a lightsaber, in the old style of fencing, he had no match. Now he could see what she meant. Unfortunately.

 

--Taken from Attack of the Clones novelisation

And in both those instances Dooku is noted to have held back, only let loose his full power against Yoda.

 

Fact is Dooku has contended with the combined blinding speed of Kenobi and Anakin twice over (and was only defeated through superior strength), he's withstood and outfenced a direct onslaught from General Grievous:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKgv6xyY5MM

 

An individual who could strike with inhuman speed, faster than thought, 20 times per second etc etc:

The electrodrivers that powered Grievous's limbs could move them faster than the human eye can see; when he swung his arm, it and his fist and the lightsaber within it would literally vanish: wiped from existence by sheer mind-numbing speed, an imitation quantum event. No human being could move remotely as fast as Grievous, not even Obi-Wan - but he didn't have to.

 

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith novelisation

 

The electrodrivers powering Grievous's mechanical arms let each of the four attack thrice in a single second; integrated by combat algorithms in the bio-droid's electronic network of peripheral processors, each of the twelve strikes per second came from a different angle with different speed and intensity, an unpredictably broken rhythm of slashes, chops, and stabs of which every single one could take Obi-Wan's life...

 

...Grievous, snarling fury, ramped up the intensity and velocity of his attacks - sixteen per second, eighteen - until finally, at twenty strikes per second, he overloaded Obi-Wan's defense.

 

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith novelisation

 

He snarled,"Do you think I am foolish enough to arm my bodyguards with weapons that can actually hurt me?"

 

Instead of waiting for an answer he spun, heaving Obi-Wan right off the deck with effortless strength, whipping him up over his head to slam him to the deck with killing power; Obi_Wan could only let go of the staff and allow the Force to angle his fall into a stumbling roll. Grievous sprang after him, swinging the electrostaff and slamming it across Obi-Wan's flank before the Jedi Master could recover his balance. The impact sent Obi-Wan tumbling sideways and the electroburst discharge set his robe on fire. Grievous stayed right with him, attacking before Obi-Wan could even realize exactly what was happening, attacking faster than thought -

 

But Obi-Wan didn't need to think. The Force was with him, and he knew.

 

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith novelisation

He even held his own against the unprecedented ferocity of Master Yoda:

With a sudden burst of sheer power, Master Yoda flew forward, his blade working so mightily that its residual glow outshone even those of both of Anakin's lightsabers when he was at the peak of his dance. Dooku held strong, though, his red blade parrying brilliantly, each block backed by the power of the Force, or else Yoda's strikes would have driven right through.

 

--Taken from Attack of the Clones novelisation

Who proved to much for even Darth Sidious to handle, who'd I'd remind everyone was disarmed by Yoda in their duel.

 

And yet we're to believe the Exile and Leneer will prove to much for him? Hardly. Dooku was described as the most agile swordsmaster in the Order, and for good reason. Noting that considering his practice of off-balancing his opponents so he faces only one at a time will be used to effect here, he needn't even deal with their collective speed.

 

3. Dooku had circumstantial advantages against Anakin and Kenobi that he does not have here.

 

Plainly untrue. Granted he faced off against Anakin several times during the Clone Wars but he hadn't faced Kenobi since AoTC, and he readily improved since then. In fact in RoTS Dooku is described as caught off guard by the pair's change and improvement in technique and yet he is still able to contend with them.

 

But this is besides the point, Anakin for one is present, and Dooku is a master swordsmaster and instructor, knowledgable if not to master level in all seven forms of lightsaber combat. As I've already stated he is familiar with every weakness of the Ataru form (in which we have a stylistic advantage even greater than against Soresu) and extensive knowledge on every form the Exile can and will bring to the table, he will not be phased here.

 

Finally claim to "extensive preparation" is baseless and without proof I won't waste my time with it.

Edited July 26, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Before we move on to the Maul Brothers, I'll just quickly cover arguments made in regards to the arena.

 

4. The arena is more advantageous to the Jedi as opposed to the Sith.

 

Wrong I'm afraid for reasons Lady states herself. She says that the enclosed space will make it "nearly impossible for smaller duels to avoid one another", and yet she suggests that Dooku and Savage will nonetheless be isolated in such small engagements. That will not happen when allies and enemies a like are an arms length away, both to assist and to get in each others way. The likelihood of allies colliding with one merely amplified with the cramped nature of the space, how exactly are the Jedi to attack Dooku cohesively when there isn't even room for both their lightsabers?

 

Is the compact space nonetheless an issue for Dooku as well? Yes. But it's a simple case of who will handle it better, the uncoordinated and headstrong Jedi, or Dooku, a master of positioning, footwork and using the terrain to his advantage? Will the compact nature of the environment ensure that the battle does not spread out? No. It will have the opposite effect, a cramped space is advantageous to no one, least of all the Jedi who will quite literally be poking each others eyes out with their lightsabers, and more open spaces will naturally be sought and retreated to.

 

I refer to my initial argument on the environment as to how it will facilitate that, and divide the duel in a way that will ensure Dooku is distanced from Skywalker, and able to deal with the two remaining Jedi without interruption.

[Beniboybling]

5. Anakin will be able to dominate Savage with his telekinetic powers.

 

Again untrue and exaggerated. Is Anakin a more powerful Force user than Savage? Yes. But does Savage have on average more impressive and more frequent telekinetic displays? Yes he does. Anakin is a martial fighter who rarely uses his Force abilities in battle whereas Savage abuses them heavily, his ability to Force push Dooku is hardly impressive when Savage managed to launch him and Ventress across a room with a Repulse, and has done the same to Maser Judd, Maul and indeed Anakin himself on multiple occasions:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111179633/4625105-savage+force+repulse.gif

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111179633/4625231-savage+uses+force+wave.gif

 

However the fact is that Savage has his brother to support him. If Savage is thrown over the edge Maul will catch him, and if Savage is knocked to the ground his brother will cover for him. But who will catch and cover for Anakin? When the Brothers retaliate by combining their Force powers and completely blowing him away? Nobody.

 

6. Savage will be unable to keep up with his Jedi opponents.

 

Still clinging to this assumption? And yet nothing Lady has brought to the table actually suggests her argument is valid, an argument that let's be honest is predicated on the preconceived and baseless notion that Savage just isn't "on the same tier". No real attempt has been made to fairly engage and compare his abilities, save a generalisation of his feats to be disinterestedly waved aside. Because yes, being far above Adi means they'll be too much for Savage.

 

http://media.giphy.com/media/VuLXkvDl3CokE/giphy.gif

 

First of all, the fact that Anakin moved to fast for Dooku is exaggerated and by being taken out of context. The contexts being Dooku at this point being exhausted and pushed to his limits by a combined surprise attack from Anakin and Kenobi both, the result is described as resulting in Dooku's perceptions shutting down, and only then does he struggle to track Skywalker. Yet despite that he holds his ground, and even briefly regains the advantage later on.

 

Point being that an exhausted Skywalker is not comparable to a fully powered Savage.

 

Beyond that what has actually been brought to the table that proves these individuals are too fast for Savage? Who has blitzed Jedi from Padawans to Masters, proved himself faster than Plo Koon - who might I add defeated Ventress with a broken arm - and was able to keep up with and perceive the movements of Darth Sidious himself?

 

It is quite obvious that Savage is top-tier Jedi Council level, and I see no reason to believe that Leneer, the Exile or Skywalker are so far above that caliber of fighter. Lady has managed to prove that her team can move faster than Malgus, some floating lightsabers, the Exile's Jedi apprentices and some Echani handmaidens, but none of this actually proves Savage cannot keep up with them. It proves they are fast yes, but it is a leap in logic to therefore assume they are too fast for Savage to handle, when it is obvious Savage is exceptionally skilled and powerful as well.

 

I'd also remind everyone that speed isn't everything. Leneer was faster than Malgus and yet could not defeat him, because Malgus met her speed with strength. Savage will do the same, the staggering ferocity of his attacks will hamper his opponents offense by pushing them on the defense, while allowing him to easily weather their attacks.

 

Savage's saberstaff will also afford him a better defense due to its larger surface area, said to be "impenetrable" in the hands of a skilled Sith, and finally it Savage has agility, which he readily uses to take advantage of the terrain:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111179633/4625086-savage+flanks+kenobi.gif

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111179633/4625103-savage+force+leaps.gif

 

So let's not assume that Savage will be at all lumbering about the battlefield, unable to keep up with his opponents.

 

7. The Maul Brothers will be unable to handle the ferocity of Anakin's assault.

 

An exaggeration, that ignores arguments I have already brought to the table. In summary:

 

 

1. Anakin does not have a strength advantage over the Brothers.
    
    
   
2. Anakin does not have a speed advantage over the Brothers
    
    
   
3. Anakin's Force rage will be a detriment rather than a boon when it backfires.
   

 

To begin with strength, Lady claims that Anakin's "meteoric offense" will prove to much for Savage to handle. And yet she's failing to account for the fact that Savage's offense is even more powerful, as I have already proven. It would be a shame to see that effort go to waste so instead of repeating myself I'll just quote the argument:

Savage isn’t going to succumb to Anakin’s power either. He possesses immense physical strength and we have quite accurate proof he was stronger than Anakin. For example before his ultimate prime Savage proved strong enough to disarm Dooku with a single blow and launch him across the room:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111179633/4625056-savage+disarms+dooku.gif

 

In comparison Anakin has only disarmed Dooku on one occasion, and though with obvious difficulty, Dooku has repeatedly weathered his attacks. And when enraged, Savage launched Anakin & Kenobi across several meters:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111179633/4625132-savage+launches+anakin+%26+kenobi.gif

 

Then proceeded to drive them back simultaneously for almost a minute:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111179633/4625237-savage+vs+anakin+%26+kenobi+1.gif

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111179633/4625238-savage+vs+anakin+%26+kenobi+2.gif

 

And while yes, Savage was enraged, realistically he always is, and in this instance Anakin is going to be missing a Kenobi, and in his place dealing with a Maul. On top of that Savage powers was constantly building:

“I can sense him, Grievous.

 

That creature, Savage Opress, is growing stronger and stronger as each day passes…”

 

--Count Dooku speaking with Grievous

Anakin is fighting against two opponents who individually are stronger than him, with a style geared towards dominating one’s opponent through superior force, that isn’t going to end in his favour.

If anything it is going to be Anakin who cannot handle the sheer force of Savage's offense.

 

Now moving on to speed, the argument that because Anakin was as fast as Jinn as a Padawan - who held his own against Maul - he would therefore in his prime by faster than Maul's TCW incarnation, is tenuous logic that makes a lot of assumptions regarding growth in power. However I will highlight the fact that Maul's growth between TPM and TCW was considerable. As of TPM, Maul was able to briefly contend with Sidious when bloodlusted, but went from barely able to see his master to not at all. Over 10 years later, when Sidious grew considerably in power and indeed shifted the balance to the Force to the dark side as a result, Maul was able to replicate this performance.

 

This suggesting equatable growth to Palpatine, and it's baseless to assume that over a 3 year period Anakin improved to a greater level, and considering Jinn was not as fast as Maul, it's no guarantee he's better than even his TPM form. Better to engage with a direct comparison of ability, and I believe it proves Maul to be faster.

 

As for the third point, I refer to what I said concerning Anakin's fear being used against him, and what I'm about to say.

Edited July 26, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Concerning as you call it the passive supporting powers, I would have conceded on that front if you hadn't shot yourself in the foot. However unfortunately this particular excerpt undermines your entire argument:

The feat is Light Side Enlightenment, a nebulous improvement to your teammates’ morale, which brings like-minded individuals to you but alienates those favoring the dark side.

 

--Taken from Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

You yourself have stated that Aryn Leneer is "known for using the dark side" and have being waving around Anakin's Force rage abilities as your personal beatstick. These characteristics will find themselves most disagreeable with the Exile's abilities. And I'd remind everyone that anger was something Anakin constantly used to empower himself:

Yes, just as Yoda had sensed after Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan had freed him from slavery on Tatooine and brought him to the Jedi Temple, he had a lot of anger in him. But what Yoda failed to realize was that anger could be a kind of fuel. In peaceful times Anakin might have been able to bridle his rage, but now he relied on it to drive him forward, to transform him into the person he needed to be...

 

...A muffled sound of dismay escaped TC-16's vocabulator. Fury clouded Anakin's eyes. Lightsaber held high in his crooked right arm, he whirled into the intersecting corridor. No need to use the Force, as many Jedi said, for he was never anywhere but fully in the Force. He called instead on his anger, bringing images to mind to fuel his rage. It wasn't difficult, with so many to choose from: images of a Tusken Raider camp on Tatooine, Yavin 4, the defeat at Jabiim, Praesitlyn... Blue blade flashing, he cut a swath through the super battle droids, opening their burnished carapaces with diagonal slashes, cutting off blaster arms, hobbling the droids by deflecting bolts into their hermetically sealed knees.

 

--Taken from Labyrinth of Evil

This is undoubtedly of the dark side, and yet Lady is suggesting he melds with the Exile? Such a move could and will have horrific consequences, the kind one doesn't really want when using a dangerous technique that can destroy the minds of those involved. Any attempt made by the Exile to bond with her allies in order to promote cooperation and cohesion will only result in a boomerang effect as she is violently rejected, alienating them instead of unifying them.

 

Turning an Achilles' Heel into a potentially fatal weakness. Reckless assaults heedless of those around them will be the least of their worries, irrational animosity, a lack of concern for the safety of teammates and a reckless exposure of them will all come into play, and Dooku will only aggravate and faccillate this. Dooku and Maul both, as they taunt their opponents to give in to their anger, which will spread through the group and cause them to collapse.

 

Leneer's ability to feel and be strong effected by the emotions of those around her only making things worse.

[LadyKulvax]

I will reply in the morning, not enough time for the sizeable posts I have coming but sufficed to say on a few things you are startlingly incorrect. I'll point out what later.

[LadyKulvax]

1.Regardless of your stance, to deny that abusing his Force prowess in combat has shifted the course of battles he was otherwise vulnerable to is folly. Against Ventress and Savage he was being strained considerably under their combined offensive. Dooku turns the tide of battle against them by shutting down Savage thrice with Force Lightning whilst holding Ventress in a bladelock. Savage's weakness to this technique is further displayed earlier in the series during his training, Dooku refuses to even tell him how to overcome the barrage.

 

This same counter in combat is displayed against Anakin and Obi-Wan numerous times to the point of ad nauseum.

 

Against Leneer and Surik he is facing Jedi with Force Defenses tight enough to block statue shattering telekinetic waves, Force Lightning Storms, Malgus' flesh incinerating FL and Nyriss' husking FL. By no means is Dooku going to gain similar results against them. Especially considering they will know his combat tactics full well.

 

2.These feats are FAR from generic.

 

Firstly the Empire's Wrath and Darth Nox on an extremely powerful Dark Side nexus were incapable of near blitzing the Imperial Guard on Yavin IV, on the contrary they fought a prolonged engagement before securing a victory, by comparison Meetra disrupted by a very powerful Dark Side nexus cut down two of the most elite Imperial Guardsmen in the lore in seconds:

 

It all happened in the space of only a few seconds.

-Source: The Old Republic: Revan

 

The magnaguard speed description is painfully obvious hyperbole and is far beyond any of the other speed feats the magnaguards have; General Grievous, the one who trained them couldn't clock that tier of speed or anything close to 'near lightspeed'.

 

'A respectable fraction of lightspeed' simply means they achieved speeds coming close to lightspeed, i only point this out because no starfighter in the lore has clocked speeds even close to approaching lightspeed with thrusters, Jedi reflexes however are far beyond that, including Aryn Leneer's whose focused reflexes are capable of achieving a task that would require a minute in the space of one millisecond, a level of reflexes that Battle Meld will share across the board here.

 

You seem to be only proving my point in this case so far.

 

Dooku retracting his blade 'impossibly fast' doesn't exactly compare to Aryn's percieving time as if it was still:

 

Her consciousness expanded to see and feel everything near her. She focused on her perception of the passage of time, first on how it felt as she moved through it, then on spreading it, stretching it, until she could linger in a millisecond as if it were a moment, then a minute. To Zeerid it would appear that she were a blur of motion, existing simultaneously in multiple places. To her, it felt as if the universe around her had stilled.

-The Old Republic: Decieved

 

Or percieving the nanosecond of a hyperspace jump:

 

As one, the Imperial ships began to stretch in her perception. For a nanosecond, all of them seemed to stretch to infinity, their rear engines a hundred thousand kilometers off Fatman’s bow, their forms reaching across and through an incomprehensible distance. She knew it was illusion, that is was a trick of her perception caused by the moment they entered hyperspace seeming to freeze before her eyes.

 

Also Dooku momentarily holding off Yoda before escaping is impressive, very much so infact but hardly an indication that he holds off any speeds short of that regardless of context. Simply put he was overwholmed after a short time and fled.

 

3.Dooku has extensive experience with Anakin and Kenobi throughout the Clone Wars, he faced them twice throughout in The Clone Wars series alone and more importantly has excessive knowledge of the two. Whilst Dooku was caught off-guard that was simply his failure to recognise their strategy of switching forms, a strategy which by the way, Meetra and Aryn will know and put to good use relentlessly.

 

Dooku has set numerous traps for the two in their fights, not that it mattered at the end in which he became the trapped.

 

4.The Jedi will be fighting in unison, with Anakin's full knowledge of Dooku's strengths and weaknesses and Meetra's unmatched combat experience against Sith Lords and her similarly unmatched strategic mind. Are we forgetting that Meetra spent the entirety of the Dark Wars working in groups of three? This level of teamwork is something which she perfected throughout her campaign, including against 'ultra-powerful monsters of the Dark Side'.

 

This arena only complements her ability to lock down the enemy and execute their plan, because as i said this is nothing smaller than a 3 vs 3 combat in a compact confined throne room where spacial awareness, etc.. is the rule of the victor.

 

This is a team of three battle melded, extremely fast fully prepared Jedi against a team of Sith, one of whom is an outsider and rival to the others, with knowledge of one of their enemies(which they can't exploit) compounded by a total lack of synergy between Dooku and the dathomirians, not to mention no strategy at all.

 

5.Anakin Skywalker is faced with the brothers Maul and Savage, is not going to suffer plot-induced stupidity, facing the two of them alone would quite correctly cause him to use everything he has at his disposal. But that would again entertain the notion that this is going to be split up into two different fights, which is incredibly unlikely because:

 

1.)As previously pointed out there isn't close to the (usable) space required for two fights to happen here.

 

2.)The Jedi have a strategic mastermind to meld with who can control the flow of the battle effortlessly in this regard, they simply will not allow 2 and a half Sith to do the same.

 

6.I have proven that all three Jedi have managed speed feats that are matching and/or surpassing those of their enemies, the proverbial and now literal nail in the coffin comes from the fact that the Exile can passively boost the speeds and reflexes of herself and her fellow Jedi, her strong suit. With Battle Meld involved in this case not only will this be done in unity, but they will share the reflexes of Aryn Leneer, the precognition of Meetra Surik and maintain levels of Force augmentation far surpassing their personal norms.

 

Your statement regarding Malgus might carry weight if not for the fact Malgus is much more powerful, skilled and stronger than Savage is.

 

Savage Opress is not on his brother's level, as proven thrice, he is evidently not even close to Dooku's tier either without Ventress' aid, these are simple undeniable facts. His not being on their tier is not baseless, it's blatant fact.

 

Which all brings me to your suggestion of Darth Maul coming to his aid, which proves my entire stance, this is a fatal flaw and Maul's singular real weakness, he will as you say attempt to protect his brother-in-magic. Something the Jedi as focused and aware as they are, will pounce on instantaneously, if Savage gets into trouble then Maul's efforts are halved and he becomes far more vulnerable to attack.

 

7.Anakin Skywalker overwhelmed Dooku with his meteoric strikes, despite Dooku's 'lavishly spending his Force reserves' simply to not cave in, he gave up even parrying Skywalker's blows and at the end makes it clear that Anakin is the finest Form V Djem So(a strength oriented style) master he's ever seen. In comparison Savage managed to disarm a Dooku who wasn't augmenting nearly as heavily as he was on the invisible hand's observation tower, monumental difference there.

 

Anakin Skywalker was not in his prime against Savage, Prime Anakin's powers evidently doubled since Dark Disciple alone, where he stalemated Count Dooku in combat. Anakin also had no prior experience with him in combat in their lone encounter, whereas this time Anakin is in his prime and has a greater knowledge of what to expect.

 

7.2. Darth Maul may have increased somewhat in power after that engagement, but he most certainly had not evolved to the point of being a genuine challenge for Sidious, it is unequivocably made clear that Sidious was certainly toying with them both and the only notable thing stated by Dave Filoni in their favor is that they would perform better than the B team.

 

Anakin Skywalker on the otherhand is stated five times in succession to be much more powerful than the previous iteration. Five major increases in power and skill from then, to Revenge of the Sith. That is not at all taking into account more theoretical deductions of his progression over ten years to Episode III, my showcasing of how drastically Anakin improved against Dooku himself over the course of the Clone Wars is on page one, lest we forget.

 

8.I am rather blown away by the stretches in logic you are putting forward here, first I will handle what that description actually states, 'but alienates those who favor the Dark Side', as in those who use the Dark Side of the Force and are corrupted by it a crucial distinction, now onto Anakin.

 

Whilst Anakin Skywalker has used his anger at times when he required it, it is a far cry from actual Dark Side corruption. Anger may lead to the Dark Side but make absolutely no mistake that Anakin remained a staunch Light Sider even if he struggled with conflicting emotions. Anakin as of this point is in every manner a Jedi and was loyal to the Republic and most importantly his wife. It was only after considerable manipulation from Darth Sidious, his need to save his wife andthe belief the Jedi Order would not take him back that he gave in to the Sith.

 

Aryn Leneer suffered fits of anger against Malgus specifically because he killed her Master Ven Zallow, Darth Malgus is not here. Very important is that notably Aryn Leneer rejects her anger after the first duel, sparing Eleena whom she intended to kill and in the second and final encounter with him rejects it further, being spared in turn by Malgus.

 

The Jedi are unified here and that unity will be the crux of their victory in this battle.

[cs_zoltan]

Firstly the Empire's Wrath and Darth Nox on an extremely powerful Dark Side nexus were incapable of near blitzing the Imperial Guard on Yavin IV, on the contrary they fought a prolonged engagement before securing a victory, by comparison Meetra disrupted by a very powerful Dark Side nexus cut down two of the most elite Imperial Guardsmen in the lore in seconds:

It all happened in the space of only a few seconds.

-Source: The Old Republic: Revan

 

What? That's not how it happened, and your quote is totally out of context:

EVEN AS SHE CALLED to Scourge to help, Meetra was already sprinting toward the far end of the throne room. Scourge hesitated before joining her, taking a moment to survey the situation, memories of his vision of their failure still fresh in his mind.

What he saw was not good. Revan was being electrocuted, his body spasming uncontrollably as the Emperor blasted him with dark purple lightning.

Revan’s astromech launched a jet of flame at the Emperor, freeing Revan, who collapsed to the ground. In retaliation, the Emperor disintegrated the offending droid, strode over to where Revan lay, and picked the vanquished Jedi’s lightsaber up off the floor.

It all happened in the space of only a few seconds. Meetra was moving fast, but she was too far away to stop the Emperor from eviscerating the prone Jedi at his feet.

[Beniboybling]

I feel a lot of what you said is unsubstantiated and left unexplained, unfortunately you can't expect others to take what you say for granted. Anyway in the interests of wrapping this up, I'll highlight those issues and correct some things.

The magnaguard speed description is painfully obvious hyperbole and is far beyond any of the other speed feats the magnaguards have; General Grievous, the one who trained them couldn't clock that tier of speed or anything close to 'near lightspeed'.

Grievous was described as moving faster than thought, a quantum event etc. but what speed feats do you refer to?

A respectable fraction of lightspeed' simply means they achieved speeds coming close to lightspeed, i only point this out because no starfighter in the lore has clocked speeds even close to approaching lightspeed with thrusters...

A fraction of lightspeed means a fraction of lightspeed, and this excerpt is an example of starfighters matching those speeds, what proof do you have to the contrary?

Jedi reflexes however are far beyond that, including Aryn Leneer's whose focused reflexes are capable of achieving a task that would require a minute in the space of one millisecond, a level of reflexes that Battle Meld will share across the board here.

You realise a fraction of lightspeed > a millisecond yes?

Your argument is essentially that these speed feats are hyperbole only invalidates the obviously exaggerated examples you yourself have brought to light.

That was not my point, my point was that what you've brought to light are average abilities.

 

Given that I find this rather ironic, and a fitting response to your points.

Dooku retracting his blade 'impossibly fast' doesn't exactly compare to Aryn's percieving time as if it was still

 

Or percieving the nanosecond of a hyperspace jump:

I fail to see why, care to elaborate? These claims Leneer is faster than Dooku seem farfetched.

Dooku has extensive experience with Anakin and Kenobi throughout the Clone Wars, he faced them twice throughout in The Clone Wars series alone and more importantly has excessive knowledge of the two.

Two sole encounters (if we mean as a duo) is not extensive of excessive to any stretch of the imagination.

Whilst Dooku was caught off-guard that was simply his failure to recognise their strategy of switching forms, a strategy which by the way, Meetra and Aryn will know and put to good use relentlessly.

They played off his expectations, Dooku has no expectations here, other than the unexpected.

 

But what proof do you have to suggest Meetra and Leneer were capable of this tactic and used it frequently?

Dooku has set numerous traps for the two in their fights, not that it mattered at the end in which he became the trapped.

Care to name a few? None come to mind.

...and her similarly unmatched strategic mind.

I can think of quite a few individuals who surpass her... Dooku & Maul come to mind.

 

Though naturally you've proof she's a "strategic mastermind"?

...is not going to suffer plot-induced stupidity

That's hardly a valid form of argument. Canon is canon.

Savage Opress is not on his brother's level, as proven thrice, he is evidently not even close to Dooku's tier either without Ventress' aid, these are simple undeniable facts. His not being on their tier is not baseless, it's blatant fact.

And yet you've failed to provide any facts that suggest they are too fast for him.

Which all brings me to your suggestion of Darth Maul coming to his aid, which proves my entire stance, this is a fatal flaw and Maul's singular real weakness, he will as you say attempt to protect his brother-in-magic. Something the Jedi as focused and aware as they are, will pounce on instantaneously, if Savage gets into trouble then Maul's efforts are halved and he becomes far more vulnerable to attack.

And as I explained, Dooku will be there to cover for him, if Maul is not already by his brother's side.

7.2. Darth Maul may have increased somewhat in power after that engagement, but he most certainly had not evolved to the point of being a genuine challenge for Sidious, it is unequivocably made clear that Sidious was certainly toying with them both and the only notable thing stated by Dave Filoni in their favor is that they would perform better than the B team.

You missed the point, the point is that Maul's performance against Sidious when enraged was largely static, despite the fact Sidious became notably more powerful, which can only mean Maul increased in power to the same degree.

8.I am rather blown away by the stretches in logic you are putting forward here, first I will handle what that description actually states, 'but alienates those who favor the Dark Side', as in those who use the Dark Side of the Force and are corrupted by it a crucial distinction, now onto Anakin.

The description says what it says, your additions are your own and skewed to support your stance.

 

Fact is Anakin constantly tapping in to his anger to fuel his power is favoring his anger as a weapon, that anger being of the dark side, he therefore favours the dark side, it's that simple.

 

And I'd add that mere differences in opinion and personality where enough to set others against the Exile:

 

 

Whatever the other Padawans see her do they are quick to do the same, other students dislike her intensely.

 

The Exile's ability to bond with others was a double edged sword, and a mere difference in personality was enough to case this alienation that is described. Anakin is already opposed to the Exile in many ways, his dependency on anger will be more than enough to cause alienation.

 

The point concerning Leneer that she is suspectible to her emotions, combined with the fact that she is heavily effected by the emotions of her around them, and she is likely to find herself clouded by anger.

Edited July 27, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

What? That's not how it happened, and your quote is totally out of context:

Thanks for pointing that out, I find that quote is bandied about out of context far too often.