SWTOR Duelling Tournament - Heats/Round 1A: Silenceo vs Cs_Zoltan

[Silenceo]

Anakin beat Dooku via superior power and force, not skill, exploiting the weakness of Makashi towards Djem So's broad and brutal attacks. This doesn't not make Anakin the superior duelist.

 

Unless you suggesting he could overwhelm Windu as easily?

 

Easily? Windu? Heavens no. What I am saying is that Anaknins strength and how he pressed the advantage led to Dooku being physically unable to continue. Darth Vader is noted to be MUCH stronger physically, as well as a severe increase in saber skill, while still having an enormous amount of power to pull on.

 

Anyhow, it says can't be detected easily by a force-sensitive. Key words: easily, force-sensitive. Jedi High Council members could sure sense him with a bit of an effort.

 

That is all that is really needed. Oh, and even if Jerec falls, the effect would remain.

[Silenceo]

So I just wookiee'd the talizman and found that Maul could overcome it. Also I found no proof that Jerec actually had it, only that Inquisitors used it in 18BBY. Do you have a quote Sil?

 

Note that Maul took WEEKS to over come it and only then because he had advanced skills in tracking via the force.

 

As for whether or not he actually had it, it was issued to all Inquisitors. Jerec was an Inquisitor. Thus, he had an amulet. Sadly, they do not have an "Inventory" section on the wiki for characters. Nor is it possible to really judge by appearance, since there are countless times throughout stories, and RL, where necklaces are worn under the shirt, concealed and out of sight.

 

[cs_zoltan]

Except in terms of force power, Vader > Dooku. I can get a quote or two to prove it, but seeing how far before his prime he literally decapitated the fellow...

 

It is also of note that Darth Vader force power wise, also > Maul. Maul was a saber duelist first and foremost, with his offensive force powers as a secondary. Kind of hard to find a quote comparing Maul and Vader's force skill, but in this case, as much as Beni hates it... "He lifted the biggest rock by far"

 

That's true, but Vader would have to use a really powerful TK in order to kill Kenobi. Which does takes more than a gesture.

 

 

You keep thinking of this as if it is 3 vs 1. It is not. It is 3 vs 3. Jerec is on the same tier of power as Darth Vader, and ultimately, power dictates how strong their force abilities are, which also correlates to speed. Desann, despite lack of feats or quotes, in a cut-scene does engage Luke Skywalker. Specifics are not important and before you say *That was a 20 second duel* he would only have to defend Vader from 1 opponent for less than 5 seconds.

He's not in the same tier as Vader. And since Windu and Ti outclasses Jerec and Desann as a duelist and they are stronger in the force as well they have opportunity to attack Vader.

 

 

A more accurate depiction, since this is NOT a 1 vs 3...

 

- Vader breaches Kenobi's defenses with all of his pent up hatred of him

- Windu Charges

- Ti Charges

- Desann blocks Ti (Doesn't even have to survive more than 5 seconds)

- Darth Vader uses his saber to deflect Windu's charge *This sort of thing he has done all of the time*

- Thing to remember is that Vaapad is not a flood gate, it is a sustained thing (Or he would of saved these guys)

- Jerec uses force Destruction on Kenobi (It has vaporized holes in metal walls before)

- Vader on the defensive against Windu for a few seconds

- Jerec and Desann (if he is alive) engage Shaak Ti

- Battle continues

Lol Desann has nowhere to speed to intercept Ti, not even close. And Jerec's FD will do literally nothing to Kenobi. Jerec couldn't even hurt a pre-prime Kyle with his FD.

 

So Windu is going to go from normal, to 300% (hype!) in an instant because an ally is in danger? Yet he NEVER did that previously during the Clone Wars? Not sure I buy that.

Yeah totally unimaginable that Windu would save his friend..................

Show me a quote where Windu let someone die he could've saved.

[cs_zoltan]

Easily? Windu? Heavens no. What I am saying is that Anaknins strength and how he pressed the advantage led to Dooku being physically unable to continue. Darth Vader is noted to be MUCH stronger physically, as well as a severe increase in saber skill, while still having an enormous amount of power to pull on.

 

Anakin had the stylistic advantage and Dooku had to waste a lot of force energy to BFR Kenobi. And he was old.

[Silenceo]

Anakin had the stylistic advantage and Dooku had to waste a lot of force energy to BFR Kenobi. And he was old.

 

... That is basically what I just said...

[cs_zoltan]

Note that Maul took WEEKS to over come it and only then because he had advanced skills in tracking via the force.

 

Because Pavan wasn't literally in Maul's face...

Edited June 27, 2015 by cs_zoltan

[cs_zoltan]

... That is basically what I just said...

 

So it's irrelevant. My team is not outnumbered. And only Ti has the stylistic disadvantage, but we already saw her block a dozen Magnaguard blows before. And my team is not old

[Beniboybling]

Easily? Windu? Heavens no. What I am saying is that Anaknins strength and how he pressed the advantage led to Dooku being physically unable to continue. Darth Vader is noted to be MUCH stronger physically, as well as a severe increase in saber skill, while still having an enormous amount of power to pull on.

Not saying that Vader wouldn't be Dooku, but that doesn't make him more skilled. Edited June 27, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Silenceo]

That's true, but Vader would have to use a really powerful TK in order to kill Kenobi. Which does takes more than a gesture.

 

If he was to kill him with TK, probably, yes. However, as stated, it would be Jerec with Destruction that would defeat Obi-wan in the opening moves.

 

He's not in the same tier as Vader. And since Windu and Ti outclasses Jerec and Desann as a duelist and they are stronger in the force as well they have opportunity to attack Vader.

 

Except he REALLY is Zoltan... Accept it. He is quoted as having very near the power of Darth Vader in the force in one of Jerecs very few showings. Not all characters can have multiple books about them you know. As for the feat of pushing the cargo ship out of the bay, that is not merely damaging the supports, nor was that a full out Force Destruction. Note how it didn't go forth as a ball, but in a much broader area much like a Force Wave would. Which is the power that Force Destruction is essentially based on, albeit much more condensed.

 

Another example of Force Destruction:

 

Spore and all his servants opened their eyes and mouths. A forest of vinelike tentacles shot toward the dark-cloaked Imperial.

 

Jerec raised one hand. Tash felt a ripple of dark-side power flow from his fingertips. When Spore’s tentacles met the dark-side energy, they withered and died in midair.

 

Jerec snorted. “Your power is hardly a match for the dark side of the Force.” He cast an evil grin at Spore. “However, you have your uses.”

 

“If you are so powerful,” Spore said, “what do you want with me?”

 

-- Galaxy Of Fear: Spore

 

Yet again I link this video, because it really is more impressive than you are giving it credit. Look at the size of the ship. The structure was holding that in the air and Jerec's use of the force caused the structure to crumble and the ship to start rotating away from the cliff. When things rotate, they typically have had a force act upon them from the opposite direction. If the supports merely failed, it would of fallen straight down. Even if it WAS merely the destruction of the supports, those supports were strong enough to hold thousands if not millions of tons worth of weight without strain, yet without strain Jerec knocks the ship out of its birth, causes the structure to crumble, and ultimately released a blast that over came the extreme strength the structure was built for.

 

 

 

Lol Desann has nowhere to speed to intercept Ti, not even close. And Jerec's FD will do literally nothing to Kenobi. Jerec couldn't even hurt a pre-prime Kyle with his FD.

 

So, Ti > Luke in speed? Confirmed? As for Jerec's Force Destruction, see above. Kenobi is definitely not a structure meant to hold a star ship, nor are his barriers terribly strong, which would only help him against this kind of attack if he managed to actively defend.

 

Yeah totally unimaginable that Windu would save his friend..................

Show me a quote where Windu let someone die he could've saved.

 

It is a WAR. Death is inevitable. Nor are Jedi exempt from this. Granted, I am not 100% familiar with WIndu's experience as a General, but seeing how he NEVER sunk to that level, it is doubtful he would START in that mode. Unless you want Jerec to start in HIS most powerful mode? :jawa_evil: As I showed with the whole fight against Sidious video, if Vaapad instantly granted that type of ability, which wouldn't be POSSIBLE in the beginning of this fight, he could of at least saved Kit Fisto. He could not.

Edited June 27, 2015 by Silenceo

[Silenceo]

Because Pavan wasn't literally in Maul's face...

 

Nor are they trying to track him down. That wasn't the point, the point was that all three of them would have their senses clouded, which would hinder their pre-cog.

 

So it's irrelevant. My team is not outnumbered. And only Ti has the stylistic disadvantage, but we already saw her block a dozen Magnaguard blows before. And my team is not old

 

As I said, can you please provide a quote for that? Because I recall numerous times it was said to be non-cannon, as well as out right contradicted in TCW. It might still be legends, but definitely not on the level of TCW, which would take away all of Ti's feats against Magnaguards.

Edited June 27, 2015 by Silenceo

[cs_zoltan]

If he was to kill him with TK, probably, yes. However, as stated, it would be Jerec with Destruction that would defeat Obi-wan in the opening moves.

Except he REALLY is Zoltan... Accept it. He is quoted as having very near the power of Darth Vader in the force in one of Jerecs very few showings. Not all characters can have multiple books about them you know. As for the feat of pushing the cargo ship out of the bay, that is not merely damaging the supports, nor was that a full out Force Destruction. Note how it didn't go forth as a ball, but in a much broader area much like a Force Wave would. Which is the power that Force Destruction is essentially based on, albeit much more condensed.

 

He tried to kill pre-prime Kyle with FD and couldn't. Prime Kyle << Prime Kenobi. End of story.

 

So, Ti > Luke in speed? Confirmed? As for Jerec's Force Destruction, see above. Kenobi is definitely not a structure meant to hold a star ship, nor are his barriers terribly strong, which would only help him against this kind of attack if he managed to actively defend.

I literally facepalmed IRL. Desann got nothing on Luke. Nothing. At. All. Nada.

 

 

It is a WAR. Death is inevitable. Nor are Jedi exempt from this. Granted, I am not 100% familiar with WIndu's experience as a General, but seeing how he NEVER sunk to that level, it is doubtful he would START in that mode. Unless you want Jerec to start in HIS most powerful mode? :jawa_evil: As I showed with the whole fight against Sidious video, if Vaapad instantly granted that type of ability, which wouldn't be POSSIBLE in the beginning of this fight, he could of at least saved Kit Fisto. He could not.

Seriosuly why the hell would Windu let Kenobi die? And this is not Vaapad, Windu's plenty fast to intercept Vader. And on top of that if Jerec tries to use FD as well while Vader TKs Kenobi he will get blitzed by Ti.

[cs_zoltan]

Btw gg Sil, we finally have more posts than the ShadowMudkip vs StarSquirrel thread. And we were on topic as well

 

Poor Sel got the "worst" duel to arbitrate. Sorry

Edited June 27, 2015 by cs_zoltan

[Silenceo]

He tried to kill pre-prime Kyle with FD and couldn't. Prime Kyle << Prime Kenobi. End of story.

 

Prime Katarn was able to fight Darth Caedus, while defending the weaker jedi who were SUPPOSED to be helping him. He also doesn't get rag dolled by people... In fact, very few in the Jedi Order at the time of Katarn's prime could actually defeat him in saber combat, being the battlemaster and all... Basically only Jaina, Caedus, and Luke.

 

Nor would this be the first time force users were saved by their strong innate force defenses... *Again, after further examination that was NOT force destruction. Force destruction is a red ball of energy that goes outward and explodes essentially. There, Jerec gathered power in his palm and released it in an AoE. As I said, very much more like Force Wave*

 

That, and Kenobi has weaker barriers than most of his tier, not really avoidable... At this point he also would already of had his defenses shattered, making him no harder to destroy than an object.

 

I literally facepalmed IRL. Desann got nothing on Luke. Nothing. At. All. Nada.

 

If he had nothing on him, Luke would of defeated him in less than a few seconds and taken him into custody as he had originally planned to do with Desann so that he may face the consequences of his actions. Yet he was not. Deny it all you want, but in a Cut-scene Desann fights Luke. Fact. Luke does not defeat Desann in that brief duel. Fact. That duel lasted LONGER than he would need to defend Vader. Fact.

 

If it was an open world random encounter, you may have a point. However, the duration and end result of that small battle against Luke was pre-determined. Fact. Luke Skywalker defeats Vader in a saber duel, showing he has similar speed, strength, and skill. Fact.

 

Therefor, Desann has the skills to at least delay Ti as I have proposed. Search your feelings, you KNOW it to be true!

 

 

 

Seriosuly why the hell would Windu let Kenobi die? And this is not Vaapad, Windu's plenty fast to intercept Vader. And on top of that if Jerec tries to use FD as well while Vader TKs Kenobi he will get blitzed by Ti.

 

Except he has NEVER seen Force Destruction before. None of the Jedi have. While they do know Jerec, it might surprise him that he is now a dark sider, and not be aware of his new powers. In short, Windu wouldn't KNOW that Obi-wan was about to die via a force attack, and instead would proceed to attack Vader in an attempt to disrupt the grip, which is what he would see as the threat.

 

I am not saying he wouldn't rush to help save Obi-Wan. What I am saying is that no matter the prior circumstances he never fully submerged himself in Vaapad, most definitely not at the beginning of a fight. He likely will at some point of the battle, but not at the beginning.

 

If anyone has the ROTS novel, mind if I ask for a quote of when he fully submerged himself? Just want to be exact about that point.

 

Nor am I saying that Windu is slow... Merely that he would go after Vader since Vader poses the threat, however, Vader is on par with him speed wise and would be able to deflect his attack while Jerec finished Obi-wan.

[tunewalker]

Just to note again if we are using the "most powerful" lists while Obi-wan made it onto the Duelists list and Kyle didnt, Kyle is on the same caliber as a member that did make it on (corran) and that is a "lightsaber" list not a "combat" list. Kyle IS the NJO battle master because of his expertise with multiple fighting capabilties not just the lightsaber, and I am also pretty sure Kyle was debated for "force user" portion of the Jedi list... while Obi-wan was not though that could be mistaken.

 

 

This may be into "argument" status if so strike it from the record, I appoligize I just wanted to set the record straight about Obi-wan being supposedly much greater then Kyle when that is an opinion, and a valid one, not neccisarly a fact.

 

 

Edit: to add to the list of people that could match prime Kyle is pure saber.... Kyp, Saba and Corran, though Corran couldnt match the moment Kyle decided to use his other force techniques.

Edited June 28, 2015 by tunewalker

[Silenceo]

Btw gg Sil, we finally have more posts than the ShadowMudkip vs StarSquirrel thread. And we were on topic as well

 

Poor Sel got the "worst" duel to arbitrate. Sorry

 

Would be much farther along if I wasn't also doing stuff behind the scenes to start up Conquest again... I really was hoping that I started in the second wave.

 

Sel is happy about it I am sure. She may complain at times, but she is glad to arbitrate between her droid and her apprentice. If she was not, she would not of gotten this one to arbitrate. The fact that it is you vs me and Sel is the arbiter, is no coincidence. It was a conspiracy!

 

Now, if only I had any skill in drawing so I could make a mock sketch of this for awesome points...

[Silenceo]

Just to note again if we are using the "most powerful" lists while Obi-wan made it onto the Duelists list and Kyle didnt, Kyle is on the same caliber as a member that did make it on (corran) and that is a "lightsaber" list not a "combat" list. Kyle IS the NJO battle master because of his expertise with multiple fighting capabilties not just the lightsaber, and I am also pretty sure Kyle was debated for "force user" portion of the Jedi list... while Obi-wan was not though that could be mistaken.

 

 

This may be into "argument" status if so strike it from the record, I appoligize I just wanted to set the record straight about Obi-wan being supposedly much greater then Kyle when that is an opinion, and a valid one, not neccisarly a fact.

 

That isn't an argument, that is merely a correction regarding the most powerful list that was previously mentioned, so in my eyes at least, it is merely a correction.

 

Right Sel?

 

Side Note: I was for the most part listing the three strongest combatants that Kyle has sparred with or fought in battle that have proven superior Tune, if I was to make an entire list of people that were on par with Kyle in general combat, that list might be quite a bit longer, since many of the NJO were quite strong. Though, Kyle Katarn = Chuck Norris so...

Edited June 28, 2015 by Silenceo

[cs_zoltan]

Prime Katarn was able to fight Darth Caedus, while defending the weaker jedi who were SUPPOSED to be helping him. He also doesn't get rag dolled by people... In fact, very few in the Jedi Order at the time of Katarn's prime could actually defeat him in saber combat, being the battlemaster and all... Basically only Jaina, Caedus, and Luke.

 

Nor would this be the first time force users were saved by their strong innate force defenses... *Again, after further examination that was NOT force destruction. Force destruction is a red ball of energy that goes outward and explodes essentially. There, Jerec gathered power in his palm and released it in an AoE. As I said, very much more like Force Wave*

 

That, and Kenobi has weaker barriers than most of his tier, not really avoidable... At this point he also would already of had his defenses shattered, making him no harder to destroy than an object.

 

Sigh, I'm not gona go into the Kyle vs Kenobi debate, but I will point out that it was pre-prime Kyle...

Also I said it like a dozen times, Dooku couldn't kill Kenobi, neither will Jerec.

 

If he had nothing on him, Luke would of defeated him in less than a few seconds and taken him into custody as he had originally planned to do with Desann so that he may face the consequences of his actions. Yet he was not. Deny it all you want, but in a Cut-scene Desann fights Luke. Fact. Luke does not defeat Desann in that brief duel. Fact. That duel lasted LONGER than he would need to defend Vader. Fact.

 

If it was an open world random encounter, you may have a point. However, the duration and end result of that small battle against Luke was pre-determined. Fact. Luke Skywalker defeats Vader in a saber duel, showing he has similar speed, strength, and skill. Fact.

 

Therefor, Desann has the skills to at least delay Ti as I have proposed. Search your feelings, you KNOW it to be true!

 

Desann ambushed Luke and shortly after he lost. You will need better than that to suggest Desann is as fast as Ti.

 

Except he has NEVER seen Force Destruction before. None of the Jedi have. While they do know Jerec, it might surprise him that he is now a dark sider, and not be aware of his new powers. In short, Windu wouldn't KNOW that Obi-wan was about to die via a force attack, and instead would proceed to attack Vader in an attempt to disrupt the grip, which is what he would see as the threat.

Neither did Kyle afaik. You don't have to see every type of force attack to defend against it.

 

I am not saying he wouldn't rush to help save Obi-Wan. What I am saying is that no matter the prior circumstances he never fully submerged himself in Vaapad, most definitely not at the beginning of a fight. He likely will at some point of the battle, but not at the beginning.

 

If anyone has the ROTS novel, mind if I ask for a quote of when he fully submerged himself? Just want to be exact about that point.

He doesn't need Vaapad to save Kenobi...

 

Nor am I saying that Windu is slow... Merely that he would go after Vader since Vader poses the threat, however, Vader is on par with him speed wise and would be able to deflect his attack while Jerec finished Obi-wan.

You are right that Vader could deflect Windu's attack, but for that he'd have to cease his attack on Kenobi. In that short time he can't OHK Kenobi. At this point Jerec is welcome to try to follow it up with a FD, which Kenobi would likely survive, but then he leaves himself open to Ti.

[cs_zoltan]

Anyhow I'm done debating for the day again, from now on I'll just go around trolling the other threads

So no rush with your reply.

[Silenceo]

Anyhow I'm done debating for the day again, from now on I'll just go around trolling the other threads

So no rush with your reply.

 

Good, because I have data to organize!

 

(Goes off to re-organize the planets again, to make sure none of them lost their data)

 

Which reminds me... I need to tell them to send me the next step of data soon...

 

Side Note: I await that quote regarding CW cannon status within Legends or before Legends were created... Oh, and Shaak Ti is the most killed Jedi in the entire mythos. So... Yeah... I am going to be pulling on a few things in the next wave of debate.

Edited June 28, 2015 by Silenceo

[tunewalker]

Good, because I have data to organize!

 

(Goes off to re-organize the planets again, to make sure none of them lost their data)

 

Which reminds me... I need to tell them to send me the next step of data soon...

 

Side Note: I await that quote regarding CW cannon status within Legends or before Legends were created... Oh, and Shaak Ti is the most killed Jedi in the entire mythos. So... Yeah... I am going to be pulling on a few things in the next wave of debate.

 

speaking of Conquest.... where is my fleet commander... did you lose him in the shuffle.

 

 

Edit: Sil told me to stay on topic so.....

 

Desann's fight with Luke ended with him utilizing an enclosed area. that's a correction about "desann is a detriment in enclosed areas" I think....

Edited June 28, 2015 by tunewalker

[Silenceo]

speaking of Conquest.... where is my fleet commander... did you lose him in the shuffle

 

Yes I did. What do you expect? Of planets alone I have had to create 60 files, with more still to create, with a projected 75 or so by the end of all of the data crunching. Then there will of course be all of the production files, which I don't remember if you sent me any production or not? Not to mention the other misc things I am making... Meh... Mostly I have just felt very lazy lately because it is sooooo hot where I live right now. Last few days it has been around 103-107 and my air conditioning is broken... I never do nothing when it is this hot... Except perhaps go to class ofc!

 

Re-send your character. That said, lets keep this thread on topic.

 

So this post is on topic...

 

 

 

Jerec knows Ti, Kenobi, and Windu since all three were quite prominant members of the Jedi order, and Jerec spent the majority of his time in the arhcives learning all that he could. He was said to have learned everything of use to him from the archives by the time of Order 66.

 

Oh, and lots of projectiles for Darth Vader to throw while engaging in saber combat.

Edited June 28, 2015 by Silenceo

[Selenial]

I'm quite intoxicated right now and I have a busy morning tomorrow but after that I'm ready to call this to the next stage, I feel.

 

You have slightly under 24 hours to make your last remarks, however many you can fit in that time frame.

[cs_zoltan]

Side Note: I await that quote regarding CW cannon status within Legends or before Legends were created... Oh, and Shaak Ti is the most killed Jedi in the entire mythos. So... Yeah... I am going to be pulling on a few things in the next wave of debate.

 

Tada:

Leland Chee said OCW was C-Canon even post TCW release. It is likely still Legends, though we will be taking certain feats with huge heapings of salt.

[Silenceo]

I'm quite intoxicated right now and I have a busy morning tomorrow but after that I'm ready to call this to the next stage, I feel.

 

You have slightly under 24 hours to make your last remarks, however many you can fit in that time frame.

 

But... Mistress why?! Its only the 3rd day if I recall.

 

That said, I might have to just ramble on and on and on and on and on and what was I saying?!

[Silenceo]

Tada:

 

Except that is Aurbere silly. I want to see the actual quote since, no offense Aurbere, people on these boards have been wrong about things in more than one instance. Not to say I am excluded, I am wrong on many things, as are we all.