Selenial Posted June 27, 2015 Author Share Posted June 27, 2015 Seriously though it was skill, reflex and ability that led him to instinctively and successfully block her attack. It's not really skill if he wasn't aware he was doing it. It was a desperate attempt, call it luck if you want but what's undisputable is that Shaak Ti was a better duelist and a far more refined Force User (evidenced by her destroying him multiple times), he simply had a large power advantage that ended up being the death of her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 I also vaguely remember Rayla saying that she planned to die with Galen to hide her presence from Vader, permanently, for the good of Maris. Not sure how much water that holds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted June 27, 2015 Author Share Posted June 27, 2015 I also vaguely remember Rayla saying that she planned to die with Galen to hide her presence from Vader, permanently, for the good of Maris. Not sure how much water that holds. I believe that was me. Just a theory though, based on the fact that Shaak Ti was dominating the fight but chose to end with both of them dying. There were two reasons that could be. One is that she would protect Maris from Vader and future harm, the other is that she planned to heal her wounds akin to when she was shot in the chest, but the fact that Galen survived meant that wouldn't be possible so she surrendered herself to the force. The latter theory explains the weird *** energy explosion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 It's not really skill if he wasn't aware he was doing it. It was a desperate attempt, call it luck if you want but what's undisputable is that Shaak Ti was a better duelist and a far more refined Force User (evidenced by her destroying him multiple times), he simply had a large power advantage that ended up being the death of her. Reflexes are the result of training and skill IMO. But sure, I can agree to that. And really that's my point, his power (and his reflexes) saved him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Well, I figure since other than Vader, not many feats for me to list off, might as well talk about variables. Starting distance: 25 feet Terrain: Enclosed space, multiple shelves of books/datapads/datacards, four hallways, 2 levels, Jedi Scultpures, multiple desks Ranged Abilities: (To be covered individually) Speed to cover distance: (To be covered individually) Who strikes first: Likely the Jedi, or more specifically, Windu Who fights who: (It isn't set in stone you know, and either side CAN force a switch...) Tactics: What each team may attempt early on Prep: Is there any? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) Well, I figure since other than Vader, not many feats for me to list off, might as well talk about variables. Starting distance: 25 feet Terrain: Enclosed space, multiple shelves of books/datapads/datacards, four hallways, 2 levels, Jedi Scultpures, multiple desks Ranged Abilities: (To be covered individually) Speed to cover distance: (To be covered individually) Who strikes first: Likely the Jedi, or more specifically, Windu Who fights who: (It isn't set in stone you know, and either side CAN force a switch...) Tactics: What each team may attempt early on Prep: Is there any? Ranged Abilities: Darth Vader: Push, Crush, Kinitite, Wave, Mental Attacks, Saber Throw Jerec: Push, Destructiion, Mind Reading (most Jedi read surface emotions during combat, Jerec would have a slightly better version of that in this scenario, just to clarify, he isn't looking at their child hood memories or anything ) Wave, Aura, Lightning Desann: Lightning, Push, Saber Throw, Illusions (They don't have to believe them to be real, to be seen by them) Speed to cover distance: Vader: Able to cover it quickly and efficiently, as shown in previous quotes. However, he usually waits for opponents to come to him and counter-charge with his own speed. (Basically eliminates opponents momentum and gives initiative to the one who counter charged) Jerec: As a force specialist, most likely to not close distance, but to seek terrain advantage Desann: Likely to stay back, but attempt a counter-charge against the person after Windu. Who Fights Who: While it is nice to speculate VvW JvS DvO, that is not really how I see it playing out. For example, they don't really know anything about these Dark Jedi, and thus find it difficult to know who to attack. Heck, Windu doesn't even know Vader is Anakin if I recall. My own team on the other hand, already knows, except for Desann, who these three are and their fighting styles. Or as Jerec believes, "Knowledge is Power". Knowing this, and using their telepathy, they would most likely figure that Vader go against Windu as planned, but Jerec attempt to eliminate Obi-wan while Desann covers him. This is of course where ranged attacks come into play, because it is entirely possible some on either team can be taken out or injured before the 25 feet are even closed. For example, at that range Vader would have plenty of opportunity to grip Obi-wan, and Jerec use force destruction on him. If that does not work however, that would still leave it VvsW DvsS JvsO which the most likely outcome is Desann's defeat and Obi-Wan's defeat, which ultimately is favorable for my own team. However, there are certain ways that Desann could survive such an encounter despite Shaak Ti's skill advantage. I will go into those at a later point. Edited June 27, 2015 by Silenceo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Vader can't use Kinetite naturally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) Vader can't use Kinetite naturally. That is entirely speculation. Unless you can produce the passage from 'Rise and Fall of Darth Vader' ? Never gotten a chance to see the passage itself, only second hand speculations about it, which drives me nuts. Side Note: The wiki even states that the effects that the crystal had are entirely unknown. That said, going to get my copy of Jedi Path to see if I can find what it is referencing as the link between the two. After Thought: Just found it, and it really is nothing spectacular. It is in the part about Emerald Lightning. Emerald Lightning: "A Technique in which a Jedi can spray electric bolts of variable intensity from the hands and fingers. This technique is closely related to teh dark side power of Sith Lightning, but it springs from a sense of determined justice and has been studied by some Masters under controlled conditions. Its energies can also be contained in a ball of pure kinetic force known as a kinetite." (Jedi Path, Page 134) All Luke says is that he exhibited it on Mimban. That is it. Update: Actually, since you are the one who wants to prove that he can not use it, it is on your shoulders to do so. If I was just bringing it up as a possibility to be used with no past usage of it, it would indeed be on me to prove by providing examples, definitions, and ect. However, he HAS used it before, so to prove that he can not use it, is up to you. The explanation that the wiki comes up with is that it is not a feature of his suit, and is instead a byproduct of what is described in the Emerald Lightning article, condensing of the energy into a ball to create Kinetite. They even explicitly state that the effects of the crystal are unknown. Edited June 27, 2015 by Silenceo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 That is entirely speculation. Hardly. He could only use it one with the help of the Kaiburr crystal. In no other instance did Vader use it, and since he can't use Force Lighting on his own, it's obvious that he can't use Kinetite either. I'm afraid the burden of proof falls on you this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Hardly. He could only use it one with the help of the Kaiburr crystal. In no other instance did Vader use it, and since he can't use Force Lighting on his own, it's obvious that he can't use Kinetite either. I'm afraid the burden of proof falls on you this time. Actually, that is 100% INCORRECT. He knows full well how to use Lightning, except every time that he has it has shorted out his suit. Which is most likely why he went and learned how to use Kinetite instead, which does not harm his suit. Heck, I remember a comic page displaying this even... Where did I put it... *goes off to track down the page* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Actually, that is 100% INCORRECT. He knows full well how to use Lightning, except every time that he has it has shorted out his suit. Which is most likely why he went and learned how to use Kinetite instead, which does not harm his suit. Heck, I remember a comic page displaying this even... Where did I put it... *goes off to track down the page* Displaying what? Force Lightning? If he did, track it down, because I've got a source saying he can't conjure Lightning at all and would be most curious to see him do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) Actually, that is 100% INCORRECT. Actually, that's 100% CORRECT: He knows full well how to use Lightning, except every time that he has it has shorted out his suit. So he can't. Edited June 27, 2015 by cs_zoltan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Actually, that's 100% CORRECT: So he can't. CAN and WON'T are completely different things. He could use it, but it would harm him more than his opponent. As I said however, I am trying to track it down now. I know I saw it, repeatedly, the last few days dangnabit! All that really matters here is the KNOWLEDGE of how to use it, rather than using it itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Surely knowledge is useless if Vader can't use it in this situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Also, Vader is obsessed with Kenobi. Practically everything he did during the Purge was to track down Kenobi. Surely he would go after him rather than Windu? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Surely knowledge is useless if Vader can't use it in this situation. Come on now. Lightning is a really hard power to master. You don't see every day siths running around with Lighting, now do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Displaying what? Force Lightning? If he did, track it down, because I've got a source saying he can't conjure Lightning at all and would be most curious to see him do that. If I recall, it is a panel of him electrocuting himself temporarily. Surely knowledge is useless if Vader can't use it in this situation. Well, it is important because it would prove that he did indeed know how to use Kinetite, despite having used it before already. Also, Vader is obsessed with Kenobi. Practically everything he did during the Purge was to track down Kenobi. Surely he would go after him rather than Windu? While true, he also knows what Windu is capable of, and would be unlikely to turn his back to him. Though as I suggested earlier, it is very likely Windu would go after Vader due to his strength in the force. Come on now. Lightning is a really hard power to master. You don't see every day siths running around with Lighting, now do you? *Hides screen shots from all over SWTOR where just that is happening...* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Also, Vader is obsessed with Kenobi. Practically everything he did during the Purge was to track down Kenobi. Surely he would go after him rather than Windu? He's also wary of him. But he can try, would Windu want Vader winning with (**** it I ran out) his superior force power? I think not, he'd step in, and Vader can hardly ignore him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Come on now. Lightning is a really hard power to master. You don't see every day siths running around with Lighting, now do you? http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/119238/2928543-524906464-Not_sure_if_serious.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/119238/2928543-524906464-Not_sure_if_serious.jpg https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/57/0c/ca/570ccadc6f792041a972d425703bffb8.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted June 27, 2015 Author Share Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) Also, Vader is obsessed with Kenobi. Practically everything he did during the Purge was to track down Kenobi. Surely he would go after him rather than Windu? Thats actually a really good point, and Vader would kill Kenobi as fast as Windu would kill Dessann. In whose favour would the 2v2 be in then? Perhaps that is the strategy you should explore next, gentlemen. Edited June 27, 2015 by Selenial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Thats actually a really good point, and Vader would kill Kenobi as fast as Windu would kill Dessann. In whose favour would the 2v2 be in then? Perhaps that is the strategy you should explore next, gentlemen. If his obsession with Kenobi is legit then so is his fear. Fear of what happened on Mustafar. Beyond that Kenobi is a lot closer to Vader both as a duelist and as a force user than Desann is to Windu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 I don't see where this notion that Vader was afraid of Kenobi was coming from, the only feeling Vader feels towards Kenobi is hatred, and its been stated in several sources that he had learned his mistakes from Mustafar. I think Vader is going to be pretty eager and confident to face Kenobi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) It comes from how Vader fights. He holds back, doesn't go all out like on Mustafar, because he doesn't want to get burned (no pun intended). Fear might've not been the perfect choice of a word, more like wary. Edited June 27, 2015 by cs_zoltan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Caution. I see and yes you have a point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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