Selenial Posted June 26, 2015 Author Share Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) Sil, just to note, the stats (+10, +12, +14 etc) are not canon, and you should judge the effectiveness of the ability based on showings in a similar sphere and by their natural power levels. In this case, Ti has equally strong sense feats in that she dominated the entire planet of Felucia and had accurate farsight, any inferiority to Jerec is offset by the fact she is a marginally stronger force user. Edited June 26, 2015 by Selenial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) Kenobi also gets straight out Force choked by Maul here: http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111137054/4253755-forcechokeobi-wan.jpg I think Jerec should be strong enough to Force choke Kenobi is he was able, Desann not so much. Well, the answer to that question is this: Is Darth Maul weaker in the force than Darth Vader? If so, it is entirely likely that Jerec will be able to breach the barriers in the same way. Something to keep in mind people, is that there are quite a few areas with restricted movement, such as between 2 book cases. All it would take is for them to go down one for only a moment and then Jerec is protected from the sides, and able to defend the front. From there, he could either stun, choke, or just destroy Kenobi with Destruction. Side Note: As Star is saying in his thread, this is group combat, not 1 vs 1's. The confined space is a REALLY big disadvantage for the Jedi tbh. I mean, Shaak Ti if I recall was a very active duelists, by which I mean moved around A LOT when she fought, correct? All three of my own fight just fine with conservative movement, and I am sure Shaak Ti is too, but the terrain will put limitations. After Thought: I know the numbers are not cannon Sel, but figured that if Zoltan wanted to throw those numbers at me, I could merely return them in kind. Edited June 26, 2015 by Silenceo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Indeed, I can think of one or two as well. Thing is, this is Jerec or Desann, not Dooku or Enraged!Ventress. He has a weak barrier but he will not be ragdolled by anyone here, except perhaps Vader, who won't have the respite needed due to Windu's offense. Which ones were you thinking of? You can PM me them if you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 I hate having to repeat myself... Force power wise, Jerec was on DARTH VADER's LEVEL, and Darth Vader was 80% of Sidious. Except it is an advancement of the typical Inquisitors ability to disrupt a Jedi's connection to the force, and Marek was a wrecking ball, whereas Jerec will be like a surgeon, in comparison. As for the cloud buffing Windu, that is not how Vaapad works seeing how the cloud itself generates 0 things for it to feed on, and actually siphons away some of their energy, strong will or not. A strong will against it merely means that they will not succumb in its presence and will be able to fight, not that it is negated. In general in regards to Vaapad, Windu NEVER received much of an amp except when he faced Sidious due to the sheer enormity of his power and rage. The key thing I am getting at, is there Jerec is very much of these peoples caliber, and is not to be underestimated... Yeeeeah, no. There's a single in universe quote that puts him below a pre-prime Vader, and no feats to back it up. Windu never had to give himself over to Vaapad completely before Sidious that's why. He will do it though if he has to. Jerec has effortlessly ripped secrets from a actively resisting Jedi Master... Say hello to Master Rahn, who Jerec then subdues with force stun and decapitates. He also uses it constantly on those he encounters, such as Kyle Katarn who would go on to become the NJO Battlemaster (Fun fact, he actually DIDN'T defeat Jerec in a duel, as people seem to believe due to game mechanics) Outside of a combat situation, from an every day jedi master, who was promoted after Order66. Hardly comparable to the titans of the golden age of the jedi... As for Shaak Ti, forgive me Sel, but that has exactly 0% of anything to do with mental feats. It was in fact her death and her inability to guide the Felucians to the light that tipped the planet back to what it was originally tipping towards, the dark side. She didn't magically keep the place in line by thinking positive thoughts for the world. This is like saying Darth Vader practiced telepathy on Vjun because such a strong Nexus built up there because of his residence, so much so, that the Disciples of Ragnos wanted to steal its power... Alright, well how is Windu stronger than any of them? Mostly I want to see some mental feats for Windu. As for stronger than Jerec, again, Jerec's force power is on Darth Vader's level and he uses it more often than his saber, unlike Vader who prefers the saber and uses his powers when needed. * Yes because drain knowledge on a nobody jedi master is much more impressive then mentally holding back a planet from the darkness and guiding and army of felucians * Windu doesn't have mental feats because nobody ever tried to pull one on him, and he prefered duels. We know he is second only to Yoda both as a force user and as a duelist. And these are out of universe quotes, so can't really argue them. Actually that quote for Jerec might as well be a combat feat, considering what he was facing at the time. "About four hundred years ago, my people took their experiments too far. Using the genes of the vesuvague tree and the Bafforrs, along with some other things, they created a new form of life. Like the vesuvague, this creation snared its victims in its tentacle like vines. It also had a group mind like the Bafforr trees. However, unlike the wise Bafforrs, its mind was evil." ―Fandomar Nadon "The crisis began in the year 439 BBY (404BrS:4:11). With the help of the Jedi Knights, it still took over 100 years for the Ithorians to capture and neutralize Spore, entombing the entity in an asteroid where it was forced into dormancy by the hard vacuum of space. " Fending off a treacherous creature such as that, while also flying his ship undisturbed, is a feat in and of itself. I doesn't matter, you can't barrier a lighsaber that you failed to block. As for Shaak Ti, what force related feats does she have to break through the barrier? (Curious, sorry if it sounds offensive, merely lack a better way to word it) She successfully used TK and Kinetite on Galen, beyond that nothing. But if someone is stronger than the person who erected the barrier than it's a safe assumption that (s)he can break through it. Here is that example you wanted. To make you understand it a bit more, I will of course go over a few brief details. - Master Rahn takes on Jerec and his 6 Dark Jedi all at once - He manages to overpower Gorc, disarming him through strength alone - Forces Sariss, a master of Soresu to retreat - Evades Boc and his Dual Blades - Slices Maw, a former Jedi Shadow, in half - In the novelization, right when Jerec stepped in Pic was about to stab Rahn with his sith dagger - He started this all by stealing poor Yun's lightsaber... The things to remember about these Dark Jedi - All of them are skilled enough to defeat Jedi Knights - Gorc and Pic are Sith Spawn, quite literally - Sariss, daughter of Cronal, was a master of the blade and only practitioner of Deadly Sight, kill with glaress basically - Boc was known for being fast, unpredictable, and random. Yet Rahn avoided him all together through movement - Gorc is a 3 meter tall Sith Spawn who relies on Djem So. Rahn batted aside his strikes easily and in 2 strikes had disarmed the brute Things to remember about master Qu Rahn - Instructed by Yoda - Focused on force abilities, not lightsaber combat - Adequate use of Force Speed - Known to have advanced sense abilities How it ended - Despite his good fight against the 6, Jerec literally executed him - Stunned in less than a second - Despite focusing on his force abilities, he was completely and utterly outmatched - Master Rahn decapitated - He then became a force ghost and guided Kyle Katarn, teaching him during his journey I admit Jerec doesn't have much in the way of physical feats, but that is merely due to his few showings. However, it is good to note that despite Obi-Wan's exceptional use of the force, if I recall, he is often regarded as nothing special force potential wise. However, he makes up for it in dedication, skill, and determination. As for Windu being amped, he will, yes, but not nearly as much as Jerec. He STARTS on Vader's level with his force power capabilities, and with the things buffing him, they will only increase. Do not forget, he not only is being enhanced by rage, which is noted to be extremely efficient for him, but that Desann and Vader's emotions would ALSO buff him up. As we saw earlier, Jerec's battlemind is the most advanced here. As far as strength, I did post a quote concerning him overpowering another persons grav boots and moving them about with a single hand, and he wasn't in a rage or boosted by battlemind either. Yeah that's feat got nothing on Kenobi and above. Kenobi was so fast that practically disappeared from Dooku. Ti was faster (and stronger) than Galen. Windu is Windu. You say we shouldn't underestimate Jerec? Yeah well you do the same with Kenobi. I already listed feats for him, he was quite strong in the force. Windu will be amped exactly as much as your team. He channeles their dark side power, the more the merrier. He basically reflects their own power at them, and he can draw on more than one person simultaneously. Kyle Katarn >> Obi-Wan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clU0Sh9ngmY Obi-Wan made it in the top 10 lighsaber duelist, back in the day. He was also considered for top 10 most powerful jedi list as well. Kyle got nothing on him, especially pre-prime. Except what feats do they actually have? So far all I have seen is that Obi-wan has Jedi master level telepathy, which, is understandable since he is a Jedi Master, Shaak Ti sensing the environment (not a telepathy feat...), and Windu being assumed to be stronger. Whereas Darth Vader constantly used it to invade Jedi minds, caused people to kill themselves, and could compel people incredibly well. Jerec has effortlessly ripped information from a Jedi Master level opponent despite his active resistence. Desann was able to project powerful Illusions into Katarns head. Obi-Wan had master lvl mental feat when was a young padawan. Shaak Ti telepathically controlled an army of felucians. They are too stronged to be fooled by sith party tricks. Btw I like how you keep dropping arguments that would put you on the defensive. You nicely went into your team telepathy again, yet failed to address that my team is head and shoulders above your team's dynamic. How so? Such has been employed in close combat on multiple occasions... What's the point of barriering something you can deflect with your lighsaber? And if you already failed to do that, it's too late. They won't be thinking about unicorns and rainbows. There is a REASON that times of extreme conflict saw so many Jedi fall to the dark side. In regards to Vaapad coming out short, a few important things to note regarding it: "The form was also mentioned with a cautionary warning by the Jedi that use of Vaapad led the user perilously close to the dark side due to its focus on physical combat.[3] Vaapad required a constant and sizable stream of Force use from the user, with a barely contained explosion of Force power essential to all variations of Form VII as another prerequisite for its use. The form's attacks appeared to be unconnected, its motions seemingly unpolished to an untrained observer.[17]" "After his fall to the dark side prior to the Clone Wars, Count Dooku described the power of Vaapad as skirting the dark side of the Force, but stated during a duel with Sora Bulq that the form was bridled and weak without direct use of the dark side." What we can take from this is that essentially Windu will have tons of his own negative emotions going other than Vaapad, as well as the effort to sustain it would take up the vast majority of his energy. Add to this the fact that Jerec will ever so slowly be draining the Jedi's energy, and Vaapad is unlikely to be sustainable throughout the entire fight. Wrong, on both accounts. What do I care how many jedi fell to the dark side? Ti and Kenobi didn't. Ti was confronted by the killer of her own padawan, and she was calm as ever. Kenobi saw 4 person he loved be killed and yet he didn't fell to the dark side, not like that ***** Vader... And as for Vaapad: Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue. Impasse. Which might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Mace's only gift. The fighting was effortless for him now; he let his body handle it without the intervention of his mind. While his blade spun and crackled, while his feet slid and his weight shifted and his shoulders turned in precise curves of their own direction, his mind slid along the circuit of dark power, tracing it back to its limitless source. No, you tried to merely laught it off without providing proof. Similar to how you claim Jerec is weaker than Kenobi, when he has the same caliber of force strength as Darth Vader, with much more liberal use. Never said that. I said he didn't use it on someone in Kenobi's tier. Being stronger doesn't automatically means he can drain Kenobi: http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/12/124590/3869438-9bq1w.gif Either way, I also brought up that he can counter it with Foce Valor. Failer to addressed this a few responses ago. *fixed Jerec does indeed have both Consume Essence, as well as Rage. They are noted to be among his powers as well as what he has done matching up perfectly with their descriptions, though Jerec does also use force Hatred, which is basically an advanced Rage. His battlemind is however, the most effective here. Something you need to keep in mind: Jerec is an Inquisitor, meaning that he has spent the better part of 20 years hunting down and killing or converting Jedi to his cause, and collecting lore of the force as well. After all, before Order 66 Jerec was already a Jedi Master and had already completely mastered Makashi. Well he won't use it if it would stun Desann. If it wouldn't, then neither Kenobi and above. With that out of the way, his CE will be limited to Windu, and I'm gona need proof he'll be faster and stronger than Shaak Ti who was stronger and faster than Galen who beat Vader on the Death Star. He might've mastered Makashi, but there's a difference between master and MASTER. Shaak Ti's Makashi is legendary. Second only to Dooku's, can't see Jerec keep up with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Well, the answer to that question is this: Is Darth Maul weaker in the force than Darth Vader? If so, it is entirely likely that Jerec will be able to breach the barriers in the same way. Something to keep in mind people, is that there are quite a few areas with restricted movement, such as between 2 book cases. All it would take is for them to go down one for only a moment and then Jerec is protected from the sides, and able to defend the front. From there, he could either stun, choke, or just destroy Kenobi with Destruction. No he can't. If he tries he dies on Shaak Ti's blade. Side Note: As Star is saying in his thread, this is group combat, not 1 vs 1's. The confined space is a REALLY big disadvantage for the Jedi tbh. I mean, Shaak Ti if I recall was a very active duelists, by which I mean moved around A LOT when she fought, correct? All three of my own fight just fine with conservative movement, and I am sure Shaak Ti is too, but the terrain will put limitations. After Thought: I know the numbers are not cannon Sel, but figured that if Zoltan wanted to throw those numbers at me, I could merely return them in kind. Do you even read my posts? I brought up several reasons why my team has the advantage of confined space and yours the disadvantage. So far you brought up no proof at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) He channeles their dark side power, the more the merrier. He basically reflects their own power at them, and he can draw on more than one person simultaneously.I don't think that's true... Edited June 26, 2015 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted June 26, 2015 Author Share Posted June 26, 2015 I don't think that's true... It actually is. He drew off Anakin in his fight with Sidious. Himself as well if that counts, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) Tbh, your team doesn't have a chance because of Desann. However good he might be, not that good tbh, my team fought better. Obi-Wan seen it all. He fought power duelists, Anakin and Savage. Fast duelists, Grievous and Maul. Precision duelists, Dooku and Ventress. He fought being outnumbered, Maul and Savage. Shaak Ti fought fast and power duelist as well in the form of a dozen Magnaguards and Galen Marek. She could stagger him: The force of it surprised him, and the recoil threw him backward. And almost blitzed him: Shaak Ti's lightsaber was a jagged blue blur between them. He blocked her as best he could until he had his balance again.Then he jumped. Over her he spun and fell down two layers of teeth toward the mouth of the sarlacc. From there he jumped up again, angling away from her to avoid giving the Jedi the advantage of height, but she was there ahead of him, driving him back down with a series of blows so rapid he barely caught them all. Windu has Vapaad, he could fight Sidious to a stalemate. And he has Shatterpoint. Moving on, Obi-Wan mastered Soresu and Shii-Cho. Both allowing him to fight outnumbered. He also overcome Ataru's same weakness, he could use it outnumbered and in confined space as you could see in his duel with Maul and Savage. He was also adept at sensing his surrounding, making him aware of everything, and applying his tactical mind to use the battleground to his advantage. Shaak Ti also overcome the weakness of her form, fighting numerous enemies at once. And Makashi doesn't have problems with confined spaces. She also the best fitting to fight a group battle: Shaak Ti fights at her best in group combat as she is biologically adapted for moving in dense crowds. She darts with ease through chaotic melees where others struggle amidst the complexity of movements. As a Togruta, Shaak Ti is one of the best Jedi fighters in group combat. Her hollow head montrals sense space ultrasonically, sharpening her spatial awareness. Where others struggle with the complexity of movements, Shaak Ti darts with ease. Windu's Vapaad has one weakness, giving into the dark side. But Windu overcame that weakness: There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared. He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power. He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. Desann used the Strong style: The strong style was based primarily on powerful strikes to batter through an opponent's defense, sacrificing speed for unrivaled power. The strong style covered great distance, and was virtually unstoppable unless the opponent responded in kind. Due to its utilization of strength and power, the strong style would cause more damage than many other forms of lightsaber combat, while its range and power made it especially efficient against single opponents who were armed with melee weapons. In lightsaber duels, the powerful strikes of this style could break through lightsaber blocks with relative ease. On rare occasions when a lightsaber lock occurred, a user could usually win the lock by ripping the opponent's blade away, leaving him defenseless. This style was quite destructive, and if the practitioner were presented with an opening, it would almost always cause a devastating blow. Being based on slow, powerful swinging attacks, users of the strong style would often leave themselves open to counterattacks and open to blaster fire. The style could thus be disadvantageous in one-on-one melee combat in terms of speed comparisons against faster opponents, although its range and penetration power could just as easily negate these disadvantages. He also used a long lighsaber, which will be a hindrance, unless he wants to accidentally cut down Jerec or Vader. Exploiting the speed disadvantage of Desann, the confined space, building on my team's strengths, getting tag teamed by exceptionally fast Windu, Ti, and Kenobi, Desann will be squashed like an insect. Edited June 26, 2015 by cs_zoltan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 It actually is. He drew off Anakin in his fight with Sidious. Himself as well if that counts, I guess. The truth has been spoken, thank you master I also provided quote on the 4th page Beni: He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon. ... Mace leveled his blade. "You lost for the same reason the Sith always lose: defeated by your own fear." Palpatine lifted his head. His eyes smoked with hate. "Fool," he said. He lifted his arms, his robes of office spreading wide into raptor's wings, his hands hooking into talons. "Fool!" His voice was a shout of thunder. "Do you think the fear you feel is mine?" I don't pull serious stuff like that out of my *** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 It actually is. He drew off Anakin in his fight with Sidious. Himself as well if that counts, I guess.Mmm, but wasn't that only because he Sidious was channeling it through him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Yeeeeah, no. There's a single in universe quote that puts him below a pre-prime Vader, and no feats to back it up. Windu never had to give himself over to Vaapad completely before Sidious that's why. He will do it though if he has to. Even a single quote like that, for a character with so few showings, is a great thing. Oh, and it is backed up. . Windu also struggled against Ventress who, is leagues weaker than Vader in saber combat. It is also of note that the only reason Windu drew so much from Sidious, was due to channeling his 'fury' which Sidious tends to let out when he fights. Vader? Calm, controlled, and enhanced by cybernetics, there is very little for Windu to actually draw from him. Nor does Vaapad simply take the opponents power and make you as strong as them. If that was the case, Windu would of killed Sidious. To use that high point that you push at against you, it wasn't Sidious' fear or fury even that allowed Windu to win the fight, but rather Anakin's fear. Do note, Anakin = / = Vader. We ALL know how emotional Anakin was. As for when that quote was, went and looked it up and that was at about 0 ABY, which puts it after both Force unleashed games. Outside of a combat situation, from an every day jedi master, who was promoted after Order66. Hardly comparable to the titans of the golden age of the jedi... "Titans of the golden age of the Jedi" I always hated such wording. So much for Jedi being humble, eh? Even an 'every day' Jedi Master is still a Jedi Master. Even then, it is easy to see how someone trained by Yoda might be quite good, seeing how Yoda basically trained the majority of B@'s that the order had. There is still the matter of Jerec effortlessly using force stun on a Jedi who focused on force powers himself. * Yes because drain knowledge on a nobody jedi master is much more impressive then mentally holding back a planet from the darkness and guiding and army of felucians * Windu doesn't have mental feats because nobody ever tried to pull one on him, and he prefered duels. We know he is second only to Yoda both as a force user and as a duelist. And these are out of universe quotes, so can't really argue them. It was not just mentally, which is what I am trying to tell you... I swear, if you make me have to go re-play that level... Nor was I saying it was more impressive than *if it really was like that* mentally influencing a planet population. Heck, all I DID say in regards to telepathy was that they would be able to read thoughts and coordinate amongst themselves... Which Jedi/Sith do in every battle. As for Windu, absence of evidence is not evidence that he has such skills. If he has no feats concerning mental powers, then there is no way for you to say that those who do have mental feats could not use them against him. I doesn't matter, you can't barrier a lighsaber that you failed to block. And why not? It stops everything else, reflects blasts, deflects rumble, stops large objects from moving, and all other sort of great stuff. Heck, it deflects sound... This is also a great time to bring something very important up. My entire team wears ARMOR meant to survive hits from lightsabers while your own are in their robes. She successfully used TK and Kinetite on Galen, beyond that nothing. But if someone is stronger than the person who erected the barrier than it's a safe assumption that (s)he can break through it. Source on her Kintite? I do not recall that during the novel, nor is it listed as one of her powers on the wiki... Yeah that's feat got nothing on Kenobi and above. Kenobi was so fast that practically disappeared from Dooku. Ti was faster (and stronger) than Galen. Windu is Windu. You say we shouldn't underestimate Jerec? Yeah well you do the same with Kenobi. I already listed feats for him, he was quite strong in the force. Windu will be amped exactly as much as your team. He channeles their dark side power, the more the merrier. He basically reflects their own power at them, and he can draw on more than one person simultaneously. Disappeared from Dooku, who later completely trashed him. Again, after the purge or not, Rahn was still ranked as Jedi Master, and Jerec utterly and completely demolished him in every meaning of the word. The point I am trying to get at is not that Rahn is some uber awesome guy (which he wasn't) what I was trying to demonstrate was foe quality, and then how Jerec destroys him within the span of 5 seconds, because he is being casual about the decapitation. I know Kenobi. I know his strength. He is outmatched in terms of force power here. Nor is he an offensive duelist, which is what he would need to do in order to be of much help to the others. Nor will he wear down Desann merely by blocking or dodging his attacks, since Desann has been an outcast from his own people ever since he discovered his force powers and has had to survive on his own, and even when he had learned how to control the force he used it to supplement his natural endurance. In regards to Vaapad, let us go over the combatants real quick: Darth Vader - very little drain due to his mentality and how he fights Jerec - very little drain, Cold, calculating, and cunning (he also knew Windu during his time as Jedi, but I think rules and all...) Desann - moderate drain, again, cold, calculating, but prone to moments of great outburst. Vaapad works by channeling a targets fury, but on my team there isn't really all that much to channel due to all of their mentalities and fighting styles. Nor do I think passion = fury. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clU0Sh9ngmY Obi-Wan made it in the top 10 lighsaber duelist, back in the day. He was also considered for top 10 most powerful jedi list as well. Kyle got nothing on him, especially pre-prime. Except, and this is of course opinionated, Kyle Katarn has faced off against Darth Caedus in light saber combat, and while he was defeated, there were many many variables that led to that. Such as ensuring his jedi team mates didn't die. Heck, if Darth Caedus thinks you have skill... Well... That, and Kyle Katarn is another of those around here who people tend to not really consider, besides, he has better jokes than the other Jedi. Obi-Wan had master lvl mental feat when was a young padawan. Shaak Ti telepathically controlled an army of felucians. They are too stronged to be fooled by sith party tricks. Btw I like how you keep dropping arguments that would put you on the defensive. You nicely went into your team telepathy again, yet failed to address that my team is head and shoulders above your team's dynamic. Do you have any note of him improving upon it after that? Or him resisting mental intrusions around his prime? (Not sure the exact time on the ones you did link) I will address them, eventually, but at this time I am merely trying to get to the *basics of each character* stage, while you keep trying to barrel off to stage 3 or so. To be short with the dynamic: - Your guys sure do know each other, yep... - My guys sure do know each other, yep... (Vader and Jerec served together for quite some time, Desann, while lesser, did idolize Jerec to insane degrees. So while he is the weak link coordination wise, he will follow the plan) - The point about the Telepathy was to show that they all have the feats to communicate using telepathy. - Something to note: Darth Vader has solo'd 8 Jedi early after entering the suit. In his prime? Something like this. 1 2 Using those panels as an example, when that actually occurred was quite early on really. What's the point of barriering something you can deflect with your lighsaber? And if you already failed to do that, it's too late. There are quite a few reasons, really. - Free up saber hand - Deflect waves of attacks - Protect yourself while you use the force (It was done in the Darth Bane series, the showdown on Tython I believe) - Sometimes, just for the B@ factor Wrong, on both accounts. What do I care how many jedi fell to the dark side? Ti and Kenobi didn't. Ti was confronted by the killer of her own padawan, and she was calm as ever. Kenobi saw 4 person he loved be killed and yet he didn't fell to the dark side, not like that ***** Vader... And as for Vaapad: You seem to have misinterpreted what I was saying... I was not saying that they would fall to the dark side, but that in times of much conflict, negative emotions are very common and easy to surface. Something we know that Obi-wan at least is known to, in times of great distress, release. Heck, we see him do it throughout the clone wars. Also, enough with the aggressiveness towards Vader, argue against him, sure, do it to your hearts content. But please refrain from insulting the characters, it only makes them stronger in the dark side. :p Again though, you are using his unprecidented fight with Sidious as proof, and seeing how he was the only Jedi who didn't fail at using Vaapad in his era... I do not believe he is an exception to the very explanation and method of using Vaapad. If I was drawing energy from Sidious, I would feel like I would never run out as well, just saying. Never said that. I said he didn't use it on someone in Kenobi's tier. Being stronger doesn't automatically means he can drain Kenobi: http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/12/124590/3869438-9bq1w.gif Either way, I also brought up that he can counter it with Foce Valor. Nor does he even need to be stronger, but that is beside the point. Drain is VASTLY different from force push, with it being one of the LEAST counterable powers out there. Look to the OR time line, it was variations of that power that led to the triumvirate (among other factors) annihilating the Jedi. In regards to Valor I am not sure I follow... From what I can see of Valor it boosts his cabilities, makes him faster and more precise ect... But I do not see it anywhere saying to counter abilities such as force drain. The only thing even close is that it could help counter old age or infirmaries. Neither of which is even close to applying to drain-like abilities. Well he won't use it if it would stun Desann. If it wouldn't, then neither Kenobi and above. With that out of the way, his CE will be limited to Windu, and I'm gona need proof he'll be faster and stronger than Shaak Ti who was stronger and faster than Galen who beat Vader on the Death Star. He might've mastered Makashi, but there's a difference between master and MASTER. Shaak Ti's Makashi is legendary. Second only to Dooku's, can't see Jerec keep up with that. Wait... You are saying that a being who fights using hatred, among other things, will be incapacitated by Hatred? Dark Jedi/Sith embrace dark emotions such as this, whereas Jedi reject them at all cost. If Jerec uses the Hatred ability, it would immensely strengthen Vader and while Desann wouldn't get the same boost, he wouldn't be negatively effected by it. Heck, feeling Jerec's hatred might drive him on, knowing how much he admires the Inquisitor... In regards to the Jedi, I hope this analogy fits well enough... There are two people at a restaurant, one is allergic to say... pepper. The second person on the other hand loves pepper. They both order the same thing, not knowing it had pepper. The second individual would find it quite a savory dish and not be put off by the unexpected pepper, unless of course the chef made mistakes. The first however, after the first bite would start having issues, and since they don't know there is pepper in the dish, they likely continue to eat. Once real issues start coming up, he is of course rushed to the hospital, while the second person continues enjoying the meal that to the first person, was like poison. By chance can I see the quotes again concerning Shaak Ti's Makashi? As for Shaak Ti > Marek > Vader, that is VERY flawed, but I instead will ask this: How much faster? If she was the better candidate to defeat Vader, why did she sacrifice herself? Vader went on and improved his speed so that during TFUII he was completely out matching the clone early on. Not to mention the vast improvements with his training droids, which I will have to search fro the quotes. Hey Tune, mind PMing them to me? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 .Windu also struggled against Ventress who, is leagues weaker than Vader in saber combat.It is also of note that the only reason Windu drew so much from Sidious, was due to channeling his 'fury' which Sidious tends to let out when he fights. Vader? Calm, controlled, and enhanced by cybernetics, there is very little for Windu to actually draw from him. Nor does Vaapad simply take the opponents power and make you as strong as them. If that was the case, Windu would of killed Sidious. To use that high point that you push at against you, it wasn't Sidious' fear or fury even that allowed Windu to win the fight, but rather Anakin's fear. Do note, Anakin = / = Vader. We ALL know how emotional Anakin was. Even an 'every day' Jedi Master is still a Jedi Master. Even then, it is easy to see how someone trained by Yoda might be quite good, seeing how Yoda basically trained the majority of B@'s that the order had. As for Windu, absence of evidence is not evidence that he has such skills. If he has no feats concerning mental powers, then there is no way for you to say that those who do have mental feats could not use them against him. My entire team wears ARMOR meant to survive hits from lightsabers while your own are in their robes.Source on her Kintite? I do not recall that during the novel, nor is it listed as one of her powers on the wiki...I know Kenobi. I know his strength. He is outmatched in terms of force power here. Nor is he an offensive duelist, which is what he would need to do in order to be of much help to the others. Nor will he wear down Desann merely by blocking or dodging his attacks, since Desann has been an outcast from his own people ever since he discovered his force powers and has had to survive on his own, and even when he had learned how to control the force he used it to supplement his natural endurance.Do you have any note of him improving upon it after that? Or him resisting mental intrusions around his prime? (Not sure the exact time on the ones you did link)My guys sure do know each other, yep... (Vader and Jerec served together for quite some time, Desann, while lesser, did idolize Jerec to insane degrees. So while he is the weak link coordination wise, he will follow the plan)You seem to have misinterpreted what I was saying... I was not saying that they would fall to the dark side, but that in times of much conflict, negative emotions are very common and easy to surface. Something we know that Obi-wan at least is known to, in times of great distress, release. Heck, we see him do it throughout the clone wars.Nor does he even need to be stronger, but that is beside the point. Drain is VASTLY different from force push, with it being one of the LEAST counterable powers out there. Look to the OR time line, it was variations of that power that led to the triumvirate (among other factors) annihilating the Jedi.In regards to Valor I am not sure I follow... From what I can see of Valor it boosts his cabilities, makes him faster and more precise ect... But I do not see it anywhere saying to counter abilities such as force drain. The only thing even close is that it could help counter old age or infirmaries. Neither of which is even close to applying to drain-like abilities.By chance can I see the quotes again concerning Shaak Ti's Makashi?As for Shaak Ti > Marek > Vader, that is VERY flawed, but I instead will ask this: How much faster? He damaged the supports that held the ship, big difference.Lol no:Mace Windu : Do not assume, however, that we are equals. We are not. Neither your weapon nor your skills are enough. I would prefer you alive to answer my questions, but I will kill you if you insist. Asajj Ventress : Oh, I have no doubt. Which leaves me one option. You are being so inconsistent. Once you say that Jerec and Vader can draw on the negative emotions with their Consume Essence and now you claim they don't have such? It's either, or. If it doesn't boost Vaapad, it doesn't boost them either.Never claimed as such, it reflects it back at them. And Windu get's stronger none the less, since he could channel even Sidious' power.Yeah because there's no such thing as power discrepancy among jedi masters. Frankly it's insulting that you think that Windu or even Kenobi is so weak as an every day master...He was second only to Yoda, it's an enormous stretch that Jerec and Desann could trick him.Kenobi actually had armor during the clone wars. Also Savage had armor, look what good it did to him. PS I wouldn't bring up Vader's suit if I were you, it begs to be exploited by Shatterpoint. Oh, too late http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11123/111233150/4616330-8941471830-20dac.pngHe really isn't, he's a valid candidate of the 10 most powerful Jedi...No, but it's hard to imagine he doesn't improve upon that in 20+ years.Lol are you serious? Desann never even met Jerec and Vader...So your dark side guys lack any emotions, but 2 legendary jedi masters don't? Don't make Jeff laugh.It can be overcome with strong will His heavy brow overshadows the empty recesses that normally embrace eyes. Jerec has the uncanny power to absorb and overshadow one’s connection to the Force… like a dark cloud. A deep, empowering grasp of your will is what you need. His force valor helped him overcome things that could kill people...You can, it's on the second page.Never claimed Ti > Vader, I merely stated facts. And how should I know how much faster? They didn't have speed meter on them. Suffice to say that Galen is faster than Jerec. 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tunewalker Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 I am on a Tirade so here I go Vaapad Tirade Windu's battle with dooku proves that he can not just pull on a Dark Siders emotions and empower himself that way and Auto win against Dark Siders. Though Dooku is using Hate anger and Aggression to fuel himself, he is calm collective and cool on the outside he is fueled by emotions, not Driven by them and that gave nothing for Windu to feed off of. In the case of anakin he was driven by his fear, there are other dark siders that give into the fight and let it drive them again Windu easily feeds on that. But emotions themselves that are an undercurrent like with Vader, as shown by his duel with dooku, can not be pulled on. Windu pulls on what drives his opponent, not what fuels them. Vader is Fueled by Anger, hate and aggression, but is driven by a cold and calculating mind something Windu has, in the past, shown the inability to pull on with Dooku. I think its the same with Jerec, though he may pull on the fuel instead of the drive, if he feeds on the drive those that give themselves over to the fight are at a severe disadvantage (I am pretty sure Windu's the only one that MAY do this, he doesnt always) all others re safe, if its fuel then he can power himself up using himself... which is kind of weird. Am i making an Argument *shrug* all i am really trying to do is correct the misconception that Vapaad draws on the underlying emotions rather then the surface when it doesnt as proven from past battles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 What duel are you talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) What duel are you talking about? http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111152734/3716145-2151174-new_picture__13_.jpg + the fact that Dooku was considered Windu's equal... pretty sure still after that fight..... Edited June 26, 2015 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted June 26, 2015 Author Share Posted June 26, 2015 http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111152734/3716145-2151174-new_picture__13_.jpg + the fact that Dooku was considered Windu's equal... pretty sure still after that fight..... Entirely ignoring the context, Tunewalker. If that was relevant I would have posted it, but it's not. Why? Dooku was trying to kill Mace. Mace was holding off Dooku because the Jedi Council were moments away and they all wanted Dooku alive, especially considering they knew of Sidious' existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) Entirely ignoring the context, Tunewalker. If that was relevant I would have posted it, but it's not. Why? Dooku was trying to kill Mace. Mace was holding off Dooku because the Jedi Council were moments away and they all wanted Dooku alive, especially considering they knew of Sidious' existence. I didnt know context, I just knew it happened, and I just know Dooku and Windu were considered equals. Usually a reason behind that, still didnt pull on Dooku's power and considering he failed to keep him there despite dooku being MUCH less powerful then Sidious and same thing with Ventress he FAILED even though she is massively less powerful and less skilled. We have definatively more then 1 example of Vapaad "failing" especially against more calculated foes while succeeding against foes that let their emotions drive them. Thus its relevant and you should have. Edited June 26, 2015 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Entirely ignoring the context, Tunewalker. If that was relevant I would have posted it, but it's not. Why? Dooku was trying to kill Mace. Mace was holding off Dooku because the Jedi Council were moments away and they all wanted Dooku alive, especially considering they knew of Sidious' existence. And it was like 10 seconds. I don't how he got it from that short "duel" he didn't or couldn't use Vaapad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) Also Tune Windu never completely gave himself over to Vaapad, or tried to kill his opponent before Sidious. But if his life would depend on it, he could. Edited June 26, 2015 by cs_zoltan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Also Tune Windu never completely gave himself over to Vaapad, or tried to kill his opponent before Sidious. But if his life would depend on it, he could. I know, that's why I said of the lightsiders he is the only one that MAY give himself over to the fight, but would not neccisarily. Also 10 seconds is 3 times longer then some fights last for living till dieing. Did he face dooku? yes... Did he use Vapaad on Doku? Yes, Did that usage of Vapaad allow him to draw anything from Dooku? no. is this a basis for believing that Vapaad doesnt automatically draw on all dark siders? yes it is. Is it relevant to the claim that Windu can pull on Vader? Yes, yes it is. Even all the sources I have seen and read about Vapaad says it pulls on the "aggression" of the opponent not the Dark side energy or antying like that i came in with the correction because I see no reason to believe Windu's Vapaad can draw on anything save for surface emotions, not underlying currents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Did he face dooku? yes... Did he use Vapaad on Doku? Yes, Did that usage of Vapaad allow him to draw anything from Dooku? no. is this a basis for believing that Vapaad doesnt automatically draw on all dark siders? yes it is. Is it relevant to the claim that Windu can pull on Vader? Yes, yes it is. Yeeeeah, that's all just your speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) Yeeeeah, that's all just your speculation. yaaa.... and you got anything to prove it another way? I have a basis in fact for said "speculation" do you? havent seen it. Would like to see Windu take on and draw from a calculating opponent, just never seen it happen even though he has faced such opponents, thus basis for believing he cant. had an opportunity to, didnt I think that's where beni usually draws the line of he cant... Edited June 26, 2015 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 I'm not obligated to indulge your fantasies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) I'm not obligated to indulge your fantasies. Pretty sure in these debates we are all obligated to stick to canon though, I think this is why i was saying I originally didnt want to do this, canon gets thrown out pretty quick for speculation that is called canon, by all parties involved, thus flame wars begin..... pull out your flame retardent suites every one sit back and enjoy the eventual fire works... they are about to begin.... Must use facts, not fantasy. Fact: Windu faced Dooku Fact: Windu used Vapaad on Dooku Fact: it did jack squat. Conclusion based on facts: Vapaad doesnt work when person is calm and collective on the outside. Dont use fantasy...use facts. The truth will set you free. Edited June 26, 2015 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowMudkip Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 "Obi-Wan made it in the top 10 lighsaber duelist, back in the day. He was also considered for top 10 most powerful jedi list as well. Kyle got nothing on him, especially pre-prime." Oh really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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