cs_zoltan Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Please please please... if any one see's something I missed. i read through the whole thread, but there is a lot of information I could have forgotten a point. If I missed say "Obi-wan will use his soresu to hold off x amount of opponents, while Shaak- Ti uses force Camo (does she have that) to get an advantageous terrain advantage on her opponents and while they are stuck with Kenobi use her excellent speed to take them down from their flank" If there is something like that in the thread and I missed it this has a huge effect on terrain and Team work. Stuff like this if I missed please point me to it. If its just another "x person is more powerful then Y person so it wont work" I dont care. I read that, I dont see it as a valid statement since I didnt find enough proof that any one is so far outside the others leagues that the standard strengths and weaknesses wouldnt apply... (read Power point of view on the earlier portion) I don't think I'm allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 (edited) Please please please... if any one see's something I missed. i read through the whole thread, but there is a lot of information I could have forgotten a point. If I missed say "Obi-wan will use his soresu to hold off x amount of opponents, while Shaak- Ti uses force Camo (does she have that) to get an advantageous terrain advantage on her opponents and while they are stuck with Kenobi use her excellent speed to take them down from their flank" If there is something like that in the thread and I missed it this has a huge effect on terrain and Team work. Stuff like this if I missed please point me to it. If its just another "x person is more powerful then Y person so it wont work" I dont care. I read that, I dont see it as a valid statement since I didnt find enough proof that any one is so far outside the others leagues that the standard strengths and weaknesses wouldnt apply... (read Power point of view on the earlier portion) Only thing that really jumps to mind would be my arguments of Telepathy between Vader, Jerec, and Desann, which start in my first argument I think, and are scattered throughout the rest. Side Note: Or the possible (or not) use of Force Illusions by Desann which I started going over near the end. Edited June 29, 2015 by Silenceo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Only thing that really jumps to mind would be my arguments of Telepathy between Vader, Jerec, and Desann, which start in my first argument I think, and are scattered throughout the rest. Side Note: Or the possible (or not) use of Force Illusions by Desann which I started going over near the end. YAAAA... dont care, it was one of those things I noted in my head but wasnt enough for me to care about in my verdict. All force users can sense each others thoughts and feelings to a degree. heck I think its noted that mostly they are unable to send complex thoughts to one another any way but they can feel intent and the like. Basically I saw no reason CS's team couldnt do that as well AND unlike your team CS's history together creates a kind of working relationship that goes beyond that any way. Which is why CS got the edge in that part of team work. So those both fall under not enough of a change on the verdict for me to care to mention it, and if I was listing EVERY power and ability it would take way to darn long..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 (edited) I don't think I'm allowed. I dont thnk you are allowed to make an argument, but to point to one I missed in my analysis should be fine. just link me to the pages I will search it myself. If I didnt miss it, I will just say there was nothing in there that had an effect on my analysis because again i intentionally left things out that I didnt feel were important for MY own sanity. Edited June 29, 2015 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 I dont thnk you are allowed to make an argument, but to point to one I missed in my analysis should be fine. just link me to the pages I will search it myself. If I didnt miss it, I will just say there was nothing in there that had an effect on my analysis because again i intentionally left things out that I didnt feel were important for MY own sanity. Only other thing that wasn't mentioned then was the argument I made near the end where I re-linked the video to show Luke and Kyle's conversation, which was this: After Thought: One last thing before I go. Conversation between Luke and Kyle after Luke fought Desann. Note the wording https://youtu.be/jcTuClbfrac?t=93 Kyle: "I thought you said not to fight Desann alone?" Luke: "I didn't have a choice. I never even felt him coming." I for one don't think Luke is one to exaggerate, and if he says that you shouldn't go and fight someone alone, when the only two are Kyle and Luke... Well, that is still quite a statement. Though being able to hide his force presence will come in handy here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 (edited) Only other thing that wasn't mentioned then was the argument I made near the end where I re-linked the video to show Luke and Kyle's conversation, which was this: pretty sure I made a Mention of that.... kind of, if not... it was still under a large list of powers I didnt list for BOTH sides...cus ya not doing that it would take forever. It wasnt consequential (so far it seems that I "missed" were stuff I just didnt care about lol ) Edit: basically some of it all I heard was this Edited June 29, 2015 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 (edited) pretty sure I made a Mention of that.... kind of, if not... it was still under a large list of powers I didnt list for BOTH sides...cus ya not doing that it would take forever. It wasnt consequential (so far it seems that I "missed" were stuff I just didnt care about lol ) :p Side Note: Fixed the link. After Thought: Ok, I fixed it for REAL this time! I swear! Edited June 29, 2015 by Silenceo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 (edited) Well, they matter to me! :p this video does not exist... Edit: no, no you didnt... it goes to blank for me.... now you messed it up more???? there it goes... dont know how that's relavent to caring.. but hey... go you.... Edit 2: I will say I missed Tactical know how which would have been something like... every one has shown good tactical awareness in combat save MAYBE Jerec and Windu, but Windu's small skirmish tactics have consistently been assisted with Shatter point. (yes every one has good macro level tactical but that doesnt always translate) There are other things to do with mentallities as well, but again I didnt really mention it because it was another one of those it didnt really change anything moments. So YES I left out a lot of stuff, that's going to happen when there is this much info but I hit the stuff that matter TO ME. The arbiter will decide if what matters to me matters to them (likely not) but it was what I got out of the debate. Edit 3: I just remembered why I didnt talk about Tactical, going through the arguments I saw almost nothing to do with small skirmish tactical ability, the only one I can find is from CS on Obi-wan I can look again, but that DOES give another small point to CS, but considering the number of other points it wasnt enough to flip the tide. But still I wanted less talk about who has the biggest stick and more about tactical know how and strengths and weaknesses and the like, and other such things. I got SLIGHTLY more of that from Sil's posts, while the dismisalls were largely "x person isnt THAT powerful so they cant" with not enough proof for me that they Werent powerful enough to employ the strategy put forth. Edited June 30, 2015 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 this video does not exist... Edit: no, no you didnt... it goes to blank for me.... now you messed it up more???? there it goes... dont know how that's relavent to caring.. but hey... go you.... ... Well... Alright then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 For everyone. My post is long and encompasses a lot of things because the thing Selenial posted to say what did and did not convince me on both sides of the arguments. The long post is, I feel, a pretty comprehensive list of which arguments on both sides I felt were strong, weak, or just not important enough to mention. The unfortunate truth is that Sil's and CS's was called first so now all that get called after have a good knowledge of what others consider a convincing argument. Be glad that when I do an analysis of your arguments that it will almost always be at least this long and that when i award an edge, whether my reasoning is flawed or not, that at least you have a grand majority OF my reasoning. I am a flawed human being, and thus so is my opinion, but at least I will always try to make that opinion as clear as possible, even if it... like me, is flawed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) :p Side Note: Fixed the link. After Thought: Ok, I fixed it for REAL this time! I swear! I did mention it Sil http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=8283029&postcount=234 It was here under "power" (sorry I had to split them... I had to go to work. Edit: I dont think CS has anything to worry about when it comes to Sel reading my post, I think Sel has me on ignore since the "canon" tirade, so its highly possible the long post wont get read any way. Edited June 30, 2015 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raandomname Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Alrighty, time for me to cast my vote. First of all congrats to both of you. You both argued your teams really well. First of all, Im gonna say it now, my vote goes to Sil. First Ill address two things that I liked about his debating style, and then Ill move on the point that for me had the biggest impact on the actual result. 1. Speculation: Personally I do not see what is wrong with using speculations when debating the capabilities of fictional characters, as long as they are backed up by logical arguments. And while a lot of Sil's arguments involved speculation, he did logically justify these speculations. And no offense CS, but just pointing out that an argument is based on speculation is in my opinion not suficient to counter it. 2. Details: At least my personal feeling throughtout the debate was that Sil covered more different details and approaches. It mainly were small things like armor or Jerec's amulet, but small details like these can still make a difference. However the main point for me was that CS in my opinion did not convince me that her team would be able to stop Obi-wan from being eliminated at the start of the battle by Vader and Jerec. He did cover this part extensivelly, but I personally was not convinced by that. Honestly this had little do to with CS's arguments, that were very good, and more with the fact that in my humble opinion it just is not likely for his team to stop this tactic. My first reason is that "blitzing" really happens very rarely in Star Wars. The only time that someone was really blitzed in lightsaber combat was Tiin and Kolar vs Sidious. However, in that case Sidious had a massive suptise advantage and the disparity in power and skill was much larger then in this fight. Sil provided evidence of Vader holding of opponents with his lightsaber while using telekinesis and so I see no reason why he wouldnt be able to do the same thing here. And with Desann holding his own against Luke for around 20 seconds, I see no reason why he wouldnt be able to hold of Ti for 10 seconds. While Obi-wan durability feat was impressive, I am not convinced that he would be able to defend himself sufficiently against force destruction. Especially since the ability does not have to kill him, it only has to KO him long enough to give Sil's team a temporary edge and in a 2 vs 3, even if it lasts for only half a minute, I feel that Sil's team has enough of an advantage to pull of a close victory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 I'm about ready to call this, any final votes would be much appreciated however. The only delay now is that I'd need to have a quick discussion with Aurbere and Beni (not regarding the victor, before you ask) before I'm ready to call this round. Thanks for the longer posts too, Random and Tune. I obviously do not agree with it all but the in depth detail is appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) I'm about ready to call this, any final votes would be much appreciated however. The only delay now is that I'd need to have a quick discussion with Aurbere and Beni (not regarding the victor, before you ask) before I'm ready to call this round. Thanks for the longer posts too, Random and Tune. I obviously do not agree with it all but the in depth detail is appreciated. I vote for Silenceo because he is awesome. What, can't I make a joke? :p Side Note: Though, I am curious as to Star's and Jarons opinions in regards to this match... But not like we can make them comment, nor are they obligated so meh. *shrug* I guess whenever is as good a time as any at this point. Works for me, since Conquest resumes tomorrow. (I swear, if people are still missing data... I will merely count it as deleted... ) Edited July 1, 2015 by Silenceo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 I'm about ready to call this, any final votes would be much appreciated however. The only delay now is that I'd need to have a quick discussion with Aurbere and Beni (not regarding the victor, before you ask) before I'm ready to call this round. Thanks for the longer posts too, Random and Tune. I obviously do not agree with it all but the in depth detail is appreciated. Yep yep. Obviously will continue to do so look forward to the verdict, both CS and Silenceo made excellent posts all around honestly. fantastic match cant wait to see which one pulled it off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Well, it doesn't appear as if others are going to voice their opinions... Seeing how Star is gone until Sunday, and Jarons is MIA... Though I do not think they have been reading this thread anyways. So... Are we getting this called today? Also, do we get a wicked awesome scenario like what happens in the Kaggath? Mostly I am just curious seeing how this is to be the first match that is called... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 Thats why it's delayed Doesn't look like a scenario will be standard, but I might do one for funsies if I can get my own post/CV post out of the way tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowMudkip Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Thats why it's delayed Doesn't look like a scenario will be standard, but I might do one for funsies if I can get my own post/CV post out of the way tomorrow. So I take it the next CV round is about to begin then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted July 2, 2015 Author Share Posted July 2, 2015 So I take it the next CV round is about to begin then? It's been posted, my opponent asked me to open. I'm just really short on time right now. Writing my argument to Karadron now, the ComicVine thread comes next i guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Don't forget to respond to your PMs too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted July 2, 2015 Author Share Posted July 2, 2015 Don't forget to respond to your PMs too. If only there was some instant messaging chat service all three of us had access to where we could discuss these things without the delay of private messages Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 If only there was some instant messaging chat service all three of us had access to where we could discuss these things without the delay of private messages like.... skype, or Mumble, or Team speak, or ventrillo, or... wait all those exist lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 I understand, I wouldn't want to share any of those information with Aurbere either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 I understand, I wouldn't want to share any of those information with Aurbere either. http://i.imgur.com/tMHF9nr.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Ooh, sassy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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