SWTOR Duelling Tournament - Heats/Round 1A: Silenceo vs Cs_Zoltan

[Silenceo]

One thing that I would like clarification on is whether the Vader-telekineseis-Jerec-FD-OHK on Kenobi would hypothetically be able to killl him, if we assume that they are able to pull it of without being blitzed.

 

@Sil could you repost the evidence for Jerec being close to Vader in terms of power?

 

Here ya go.

 

The tattooed man’s dark-side energy wasn’t quite as powerful as the feeling she’d gotten from Darth Vader months ago. This man wasn’t as strong as Vader. But he was almost as evil.

 

-- Galaxy Of Fear: Spore

[Selenial]

Ok, ladies and gentlemen, the time has come for Phase 2!

 

To remind you all what this entails, here's the quote from the original description in the announcement thread:

 

"The second stage commences when the Arbiter decides the debate has run its course, at this point spectators will be able and be encouraged to provide, if they so wish, a detailed analysis/personal verdict on who they think will win and why based on the arguments made. Note at this stage the debate is over, so no rebuttals."

 

Note that your arguments are to be put forward in order to convince me why you're right. You're not posting them for the hell of it, there is a specific reason, and the more detailed you are, the more likely to listen to your votes I will be. I'm not simply going to side with whoever gains the most votes. With that said, here's some pointers that could help your vote make the biggest difference.

 

 

1. 
    
   
2. Avoid bias: Make your arguments without personal opinion, based around fact. This includes all previous knowledge of characters. If you viewed Shaak Ti as far greater than Jerec, but Zoltan failed to actually prove that in this debate, then make that fact known and afford the Shaak Ti vs Jerec battle to Silenceo. Don't make your vote a post about who you originally thought would win and who your favourite team is.
    
    
   
3. Be detailed: The little victories count, and refer to them in your posts if you feel they deserve it. Don't simply say that Obi-Wan beats Desann for example, tell me why, and why Zoltan showed that.
    
    
   
4. Avoid new arguments: I'm here to judge not just which team wins, but which debater showed why which team wins. If one of them has missed key information that would have helped them win, then the fact they've missed that is an unfortunate mistake on their part. By bringing up information that they have not, you're pointing out flaws in their arguments and areas where they have failed, not helping their team win. On the flip side, if you chose to bring such information up while criticising the person you feel has been defeated, feel free.
    
    
   
5. Address both debaters: No debater here is bad. Neither have lost categorically or in every area of this debate. Each has strengths and flaws in their arguments. The best way to prove which debater won is to compare both of their pros and cons. You could also casts vote without even picking a side by simply pointing out pros and cons of each.

 

You don't need to be this detailed, but it's your best chance of convincing me, so fire away!

 

Good luck to both contestants, you've had a fantastic first match and I'm proud of you both!

Edited June 29, 2015 by Selenial

[Silenceo]

Good luck to both contestants, you've had a fantastic first match and I'm proud of you both!

 

**** I just realized I forgot to post Darth Vaders saber feats... *facepalm* That is definitely going to bite me in the rear...

[raandomname]

I believe I covered that at length:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=8280958&postcount=202

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=8281718&postcount=211

Yeah, but you mainly discussed why it wouldnt happen in the first place, not how Obi-wan would survive the attack if it actually worked. The one example you pointed out about Obi-wan's durability was impressive, but from just that one example, I personally cannot see him surviveing an ability as destructive as force destruction.

[cs_zoltan]

Yeah, but you mainly discussed why it wouldnt happen in the first place, not how Obi-wan would survive the attack if it actually worked. The one example you pointed out about Obi-wan's durability was impressive, but from just that one example, I personally cannot see him surviveing an ability as destructive as force destruction.

 

Then you didn't read thoroughly enough. I suggest go over it again.

 

I hope this doesn't count as rebuttal, if so I stop.

[Selenial]

Then you didn't read thoroughly enough. I suggest go over it again.

 

I hope this doesn't count as rebuttal, if so I stop.

 

Unless that counts as Random's vote, I'll allow it for now. Honestly though that should be the last post on it, anything more would likely constitute a violation of the rules.

[cs_zoltan]

Unless that counts as Random's vote, I'll allow it for now. Honestly though that should be the last post on it, anything more would likely constitute a violation of the rules.

 

Got it. It just sucks when they miss something I specifically pointed out more than once

[Beniboybling]

Alrighty, I guess I'll be the first to weigh in:

 

While good points where made on both sides, I feel Zoltan takes this one, mainly because her team is just much more well rounded and as Zoltan has argued, can realistically either net a win or hold their ground against any one opponent. Silenceo made the point that Kenobi as the weak link, could get KO'ed by Vader and Jerec, but as Zoltan rightly pointed out, the speed of ferocity of their adversaries just isn't going to make it possible for them to eliminate him, at best they'll knock him up a bit, but they simply lack the power to destroy him before his allies can intervene.

 

And with that eliminated as a possibility, Zoltan can net a win simply by being overall more skilled than their opponents.

Edited June 29, 2015 by Beniboybling

[tunewalker]

Ok so this is going to be LONG. As Sel said I do not intend to leave much out of this decision. Both debaters were fantastic here in show casing their team, but both had miss oportunities and or did not convince me of some of their arguments. I will be doing so in a multi categorial steps... so bear with me.

 

 

1. Power

 

Now those who have seen me debate before in BATTLES know this is the category I take with the largest grain of salt and the one in which holds the least amount of water for me. I have said on ocassions that judging cross era characters I feel to be difficult as what is and is not an impressive force feat is, I feel, some what speculative. Not to mention the most important crux of the power argument is people from the same era can have a MASSIVE number of people on enough of a power tier level to affect one another (off the top of my head, Kenobi, Plo Koon, Savage, Maul, Shak Ti, K'Kruhk, Quigon, Kit Fisto, and so many more) which to me suggests that massively more could exist from all era's. A master is a master, and a High level Master is still a High level master. So the question with power is not "who is more powerful then who" for me, but "who is on a level high enough for me not to care" So going to get to each of those now.

 

Shaak-Ti-

This one is easy, we see from nearly all of her accolades and her fight with a Pre-prime Galen that she is deffinately a High Caliber Force user or a High caliber Master

 

 

Obi-wan-

again easy every opponent he fought during the clone wars was considered a top tier opponent, even defeating Greivous who in OCW regularly beat high level masters himself. Again Definately a High Caliber Force user.

 

 

Windu-

again 1, 2, 3 Zoltan picked really easy group for determining if they would be strong enough to contend with any opponent they went up against and this is definately the case yet again. Second to Yoda in the Pre-quel era is EASY in for High caliber force user.

 

 

Vader-

Current contender for number 8 master to some one that defeated a high caliber force user (regardless of whether Galen would surpass him or not, he had not at that time), AND has defeated jedi masters and knights even in groups definately High caliber Force user

 

 

Jarec-

Sil's quote doesnt say Near vader, it says "not quite" vader which is a very different terminology, HOWEVER being able to EASILY defeat a Jedi master backs up the near claim. If it was a struggle fight then I would believe that Jerec was not on the level being described but by winning with ease it would mean he would have to have been far above his opponent, further he defeats a pre-prime Katarn while pre-prime Katarn may not be as high as Pre-prime Galen he did WIN more then enough for me to consider a "high caliber force user"

 

 

 

Desann-

Again we have accolades, from Luke Skywalker no less, that he is a strong force user and even the top masters shouldn't face him alone. He sneaks up on Luke and is able to fight him and escape unharmed. And this is a greater then Sidious Luke from as far as I can tell. So i have no doubt in my mind Desann is a high caliber force user.

 

 

 

 

Looking at the time I have to leave for work, but this is my initial conclusion All opponents here are of a high enough caliber that the deciding factor will not be "who is more powerful" but rather "Who's team work is better, and who's ABILITIES counter who's" I will cover all of those when I get home.

[Aurbere]

OK, so, may as well cast my own vote.

 

I'm going to have to hand this one to Zoltan. Zoltan simply did a better job portraying his team as superior to Sil's team. He adequately displayed Kenobi's strong barriers, suitably countered any strategies to remove Kenobi quickly, and all around simply showed that his team was superior. It was a good match too, and Sil did a great job as well. However, Zoltan simply made better arguments.

 

So, yeah, I'm siding with Zoltan here.

[cs_zoltan]

I feel Zoltan takes this one, mainly because her team is just much more well rounded...

He adequately displayed Kenobi's strong barriers...

 

Apparently I'm this forum's transgender debater

[ShadowMudkip]

I think I'll cast my vote as well. Let me first say, that this one was really hard for me, as both you guys are really good debaters. I have actually flip-flopped on my decision now a couple of times, but I finally have my vote.

 

I'm going to have to vote for cs_Zoltan. There were a few things that tipped it in favor of Zoltan. First, was the fact that Zoltan's team is going to have leagues more synergy than Silenceo's. I also felt that, while both Jerec and Desann are powerful in their own right, Sil shot himself in the foot by choosing two relative unknowns on these forums. I feel he spent most of his time fighting an uphill battle by trying to prove Desann and Jerec. Earlier I had asked some questions for both opponents, but I felt that Silenceo's answers on Desann's lightsaber forms was inadequate. Much of what I saw felt like speculation. While it is true that Desann did learn Djem So, Shii-Cho and Niman, I find it harder to believe he mastered others based on equipment. Last thing, Silenceo, IMO, did not spend enough time on Vader, as that was really the core of his team. This was perhaps the biggest factor in my decision.

 

Good job both of you, it was a great debate and you both kept it pretty chill.

[Beniboybling]

Apparently I'm this forum's transgender debater

No comment.

 

EDIT: Mudkip makes the smart choice to not specify a gender.

Edited June 29, 2015 by Beniboybling

[ShadowMudkip]

No comment.

 

EDIT: Mudkip makes the smart choice to not specify a gender.

 

 

Beni did you see my question on my thread?

[Silenceo]

Just wanted to correct something that Beni said, hope that is alright...

 

It was Vader and Jerec that would be working together for the OHK using grip and FD, not Vader and Desann.

 

Good job both of you, it was a great debate and you both kept it pretty chill.

 

One does not simply anger Selenial!

Edited June 29, 2015 by Silenceo

[Beniboybling]

Ah, typo on my part.

[tunewalker]

Ok so Back to my EXTREMELY long discussion on how this match up went.

 

 

Light Saber skill:

 

 

Largely the same as power, while normally eliminating weaknesses and mastering more then one form would allow me to put some one over another in light saber skill, that is only as a general who is overall the better way, NOT the determining factor of who would win in a fight. For example An MMA fighter goes up against a Wrestler, if the wrestler can get ahold of hte MMA fighter just because the MMA fighter is better over all doesnt mean he is going to win, thus strengths and weaknesses must be taken into account. Though if there is enough gap in skill it could matter, just like power. Suffice to say both showed enough to say they were a master of lightsaber combat that it would be the strengths and weaknesses of a particular FIGHTER (not their fighting style but the strengths and weakness the fighters themselves have) that will determine the victor.

 

 

That being said, moving on to the next point Skills and Abilities.

 

Skills and Abilities:

 

 

Because this one could technically pretty much go over the whole of the entire thread I am going to summarize here using the 1v1 match ups that were covered. Though I do believe more 1v1 match ups should have been talked about.

 

Vader vs Windu: Vader's weaknesses are kind of hard to pin down, in fact I dont remember seeing any weaknesses from him in this thread beyond "reduced" mobility which was shown didnt matter as he was still incredibly fast, but I did see several strengths including a cold calculating mind as well as utilizing skilled TK to distract his opponent as well as a tactical mind and pure physical strength, Windu's weaknesses were also not really hit to hard other then the possibility of Vaapad not having enough energy to feed off of thus him needing to supplement it with his own which while that means he cant fight indeffinately that deffinately does not mean he will have any kind of low endurance, the other weakness was one both Sil AND CS showed with out knowing it. In Linking the Conversation between Obi-wan and Windu about Obi-wan's Soresu Windu talks about how Vaapad is about turning his inner darkness into a weapon for the light. In that moment Windu admits to having inner darkness so all the arguments Sil had about using WINDU's darkness are completely valid. His strengths are still numerable in the case of speed and ferocity as well as longevity.

 

This fight seems more likely to be determined by other factors then just the skills and abilities of the 2 combatants.

 

 

Obi-wan Vs Jerec: This is where I start moving away from every one else's opinion (to no surprise to any one) but Obi-wan has had historical difficulties with Makashi users, especially ones that chain force abilities into their attacks. While the argument was made that Jerec never did it to any one of Kenobi's strength, Kenobi has never resisted any one of Jerec's strength. Makashi, while Obi-wan has fought against it alot, he has never conquered it which is no surprise given it is the one form other then Form VII that we know he never presonally used. His lack of personal familiarity with it may be the reason why it has proven to be so effective against him regardless of hte number of times he has faced off against it, suffice to say the arguments presented I did not feel showed why Jerec couldnt do this to Obi-wan as none showed why Jerec wasnt Maul or Dooku level, they just said he wasnt. (there are other thigns such as the drain weakening the whole party and the fact that the Force Destruction doesnt need to kill just knock out for a few moments and no fighter on CS's team has shown to take a structure destroying blast with out losing conciousness, denting maybe, destroying no.)

 

For these reason's I have to give Jerec the Edge

 

Shaak Ti vs Desann: Again I am going to go against the crowd. Now there were several good arguements by CS on this point ESPECIALLY about shaak ti's overcoming weaknesses as well as her natural advantages granted to her by biology. HOWEVER there were a few "eliminated weakness" points that I was not convinced on. Specifically her ability to handle power blows. The ability to handle 1 or 2 power blows is not eliminating a weakness to power blows. Dedicated power duelists dont go around 1 shotting their opponents, they hit them and hit them and hit them until their defenses fail, and in fact we see Shaak Ti fail to exactly this, after fighting and dealing with multiple power blows it takes just 1 from Greivous to completely disarm her... twice (IE in both fights basically as Sil said she lost to him twice and in a possible time line was killed by anakin) and against Galen as Beni said "there is no such thing as luck" while from HIS perspective he got lucky, its just as likely she was becoming tired towards the end of the fight and that last burst of speed waned just a little bit to allow him to avoid a death that she would have other wise given him. Both of these point to a problem with power dueling. HOWEVER Desann has his own weaknesses, as CS pointed out, if he can not get people under his power blows one miss can leave him wide open in a 1v1 situation (though this isnt a 1v1 situation) which means that if Shaak Ti can avoid one of his power blows completely she can utilize her impressive speed to capitalize on his slow recovery time and cut him down then and there.

 

Verdict: Terrain dependent

 

Overall Verdict: Silenceo slight edge, but that can easily change with terrain and team work.

 

 

 

Terrain:

 

 

Finally a short one. Both did an excellent job show casing how their people would not have much of a detrement to the terrain. But not much was covered on how they would take ADVANTAGE of that terrain, except in a few cases.

 

Vader: Vader has plenty to TK around the field as distractions for his fight and the fight of his team mates This could tip it in his teams favor.

 

Shaak Ti: While we have proof that she can handle crowds and her biology shows that she has great spacial awareness, being aware of the lack of space DOES NOT create more space to use. She is still going to find her mobility limited and thus having to take power blows she would prefer to dodge.

 

Desann: while its an excellent point that long swords are not the best close quarters weapons..... all lightsabers are technically long swords, and Sil has actually SHOWN his ability to utilize small areas to his advantage.

 

Obi-wan: Tactical know how leading people into a place of his choosing.

 

The overall here is pretty close but a slight edge does go to Silenceo. while there were other mentions of terrain I did not find them specific enough to mention or to change the tide of this decision.

 

 

 

Teamwork:

 

This one is going to have 2 categories, because I believe there are 2 categories to be had in team work area. 1 every one has taken into account the other... has not been, save for in very few arguments.

 

Familiarity:

 

 

This one is an easy edge to CS, they are absolutely correct in the fact that all of their people would be pretty well familiar with their fighting styles and personalities. While Sil's team may know of each other that doesnt mean they know each other as well as people who have grown up together and trained together for years.

 

 

Tactical Coehesion:

 

 

This is the one that every one seems to have ignored. Just because you are familiar with your friend does NOT mean you work well with them. There is no mention of missions where Windu, Obi-wan and/or Shaak Ti worked directly with each other, and definately none that I know of where they fought a small skirmish together. Further there was NO explination of how their unique abilities or skills would compliment one another (if I missed the argument and am wrong please link me to it, this is a huge part for me) while Silenceo on the other hand very specifically noted how Vader's and Jerec's powers at the very least could be combined for a winning combination. Sometimes its not which team that STARTS mentally in sync but the team that can find opportunities created by team mates abilities that wins. In this case I have to give the advantage to Sil, because I can actually SEE how his teams styles and abilities will mesh well into a formidable TEAM rather then 3 strong individuals who know each other.

 

 

 

 

 

If you have read everything up to this point congatulations.... you have the patience of a saint. The final verdict and vote is to Team Silenceo.

Edited June 30, 2015 by tunewalker

[cs_zoltan]

After there's a final verdict can I correct Tune? Because I'm totally like this right now: http://i.imgur.com/ytG3EZS.gif

[tunewalker]

After there's a final verdict can I correct Tune? Because I'm totally like this right now: http://i.imgur.com/ytG3EZS.gif

 

It was based on the arguments presented, if you have a link to one of your arguments that will be fine I am sure since I did ask for any that I missed. If you take an issue with how I analyze combat styles and abilities as well as arguments presented... well aint nobody here ever going to change that, believe me they try I just have a certain view point of how this big old universe works. And I am not the final say on any of this any way so its not like it matters.

 

 

Edit: remember not all points are here that would take the entire thread, this is extremely condensed version with condensed explinations of how I feel the debate went down. I am sure this will not be the first or last time I step on peoples toes with how I do my analysis so please send all your mail to PO. Box 1D0N7CAR3

Edited June 29, 2015 by tunewalker

[Silenceo]

After there's a final verdict can I correct Tune? Because I'm totally like this right now: http://i.imgur.com/ytG3EZS.gif

 

No, you may not.

 

The second stage commences when the Arbiter decides the debate has run its course, at this point spectators will be able and be encouraged to provide, if they so wish, a detailed analysis/personal verdict on who they think will win and why based on the arguments made. Note at this stage the debate is over, so no rebuttals.

 

Side Note: Like I DIDN'T want to try and persuade those who voted against me? Gotta let them say what their going to say, or Sel might get angry at us.

 

After Thought: Even after the final verdict, would be kinda pointless to do so by then... Trust me though, Tune is the most stubborn ones here, by a long shot. Once he makes a decision, you better have a darn ubber argument... No offense Tune, but it is one of your best qualities. That, and Tune and I tend to agree on things.

Edited June 29, 2015 by Silenceo

[cs_zoltan]

You can vote as you see fit, but some of your conclusions you drew are bugging me lol

But as I said, only after the verdict. Until then if you feel like you could've missed something it's your choice alone to look through the thread if you want.

[cs_zoltan]

No, you may not.

 

 

 

Side Note: Like I DIDN'T want to try and persuade those who voted against me? Gotta let them say what their going to say, or Sel might get angry at us.

 

I don't have a problem with him voting you, it's just annoys me to not correct stuff lol. Anyway after the final verdict it hardly matters. I'm not trying to steal your vote.

[cs_zoltan]

After Thought: Even after the final verdict, would be kinda pointless to do so by then... Trust me though, Tune is the most stubborn ones here, by a long shot. Once he makes a decision, you better have a darn ubber argument... No offense Tune, but it is one of your best qualities. That, and Tune and I tend to agree on things.

 

I don't need to change his mind, I just want to get it off my chest for my own sanity.

[Silenceo]

I don't have a problem with him voting you, it's just annoys me to not correct stuff lol. Anyway after the final verdict it hardly matters. I'm not trying to steal your vote.

 

Oh its not really about the vote tbh.

 

Its mostly me trying to warn against starting a debate over something so trivial. How do you think I feel with the inconsistencies I see in the votes for you?! I mean, I covered Vader in the vast majority of my posts!

 

What I am trying to say, is that it isn't really worth it, ask Beni if you don't believe me...

 

I don't need to change his mind, I just want to get it off my chest for my own sanity.

 

Yeah, pretty much the mentality I had for 3/4 of this match. "I won't convince Zoltan. I do however have to convince Sel and the others..." Not saying that I succeeded, but...

 

Anyways, at this point, I am merely rambling to ramble because nothing exciting is happening concerning the tourney at this time.

 

(Goes back to a previous argument)

 

Khem Val > other companions.

Edited June 29, 2015 by Silenceo

[tunewalker]

You can vote as you see fit, but some of your conclusions you drew are bugging me lol

But as I said, only after the verdict. Until then if you feel like you could've missed something it's your choice alone to look through the thread if you want.

 

Please please please... if any one see's something I missed. i read through the whole thread, but there is a lot of information I could have forgotten a point. If I missed say "Obi-wan will use his soresu to hold off x amount of opponents, while Shaak- Ti uses force Camo (does she have that) to get an advantageous terrain advantage on her opponents and while they are stuck with Kenobi use her excellent speed to take them down from their flank" If there is something like that in the thread and I missed it this has a huge effect on terrain and Team work. Stuff like this if I missed please point me to it.

 

If its just another "x person is more powerful then Y person so it wont work" I dont care. I read that, I dont see it as a valid statement since I didnt find enough proof that any one is so far outside the others leagues that the standard strengths and weaknesses wouldnt apply... (read Power point of view on the earlier portion)

 

 

Edit: yes this is true... I am a rock, once my mind has made itself up its going to take a mountain for it to change, partially because I didnt make the decision on a whim. I can understand those disagreeing but, for the most part its just another point of view.

1:06 Edited June 29, 2015 by tunewalker