StarSquirrel Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Do our characters not know about one another from the start? Boba would easily be able to alert Jaina and Corran of this conflict of interest early on. And I dont know if this qualifies as making an argument but Durge died before Boba ever got his armor in the style we know, so in the time it takes for the names to be announced Boba can get Corran to deafen Durge during the name announcements, playing into the mind powers Ive been talking about... I figure thatd fall under Corran manipulating Durge at the begimning. Didnt think id have to spell out every possible scenario though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) Do our characters not know about one another from the start? Boba would easily be able to alert Jaina and Corran of this conflict of interest early on. And I dont know if this qualifies as making an argument but Durge died before Boba ever got his armor in the style we know, so in the time it takes for the names to be announced Boba can get Corran to deafen Durge during the name announcements, playing into the mind powers Ive been talking about... I figure thatd fall under Corran manipulating Durge at the begimning. Didnt think id have to spell out every possible scenario though... Boba's armor is mandalorian already, no one knows each other at the start unless they would know them in canon so basically no on your team knows durge except Boba, Game begins and names are announced Durge is on Boba before he can say "Durge" let alone "Durge doesnt like me help"... The 2 arguments combined that created the issue...in the colors of the combatant that made the argument Another possibility, since I just got confirmation from Beni, is that Durge does indeed attack Boba Fett, making my team's job that much easier. How? you might ask. It is very simply. Participants will only know prior knowledge, and names of both their teammates and their opposition. This is not a problem for my team, but it is for Star's. No one is going to know of Durge except Koon and Fisto and possibly Fett, though I doubt it. Thus, Corran wouldn't initially cast illusions on Durge to make him behave. an angry Gen'Dai will kill his prey before going after "shadows team" (as a replacement for boba fett at the end of the sentence as the argument made by star assumed he would start on Shadows team instead of Boba fett.) Basically all the talk of Battle Meditation vs Corran's mental influence and illusions did not matter with the above being combined to me. Edited July 1, 2015 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarSquirrel Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 You drastically overestimate Durge's ability to identify Boba (again Durge only knew Boba as a child) and underestimate the speed Corran would read these criminals (I mentioned his Corsec training) and adapt accordingly but thats up to others and Beni to decide. Perhaps you should cover what you think of the match beyond this one thing. All of it helps Beni... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 You drastically overestimate Durge's ability to identify Boba (again Durge only knew Boba as a child) and underestimate the speed Corran would read these criminals (I mentioned his Corsec training) and adapt accordingly but thats up to others and Beni to decide. Perhaps you should cover what you think of the match beyond this one thing. All of it helps Beni... This is a good point. Will do so, tomorow need to go to sleep soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 I meant to cut down on bullet points, but considering my copy/paste function failed and lost the entire thing when I tapped back page short cut on accident... No paragraphs! Not a second time... *Loads in clip of 'bullets' and grins* Lets get this going... My vote goes to: StarSquirrel Reasoning: - Addressed points and counter points efficiently - In my mind, defeated some of the paths of victory that Kip relied on - All four of his characters have experience facing other force users - Beskar (sadly, he didn't mention the neck guard...) - Corran's mental powers and reaction times - Jaina's sheer skill with the blade, and while no dark siders, (and it wasn't brought up and didn't weigh into my decision, she did bring back and master Vaapad if I recall correctly) - BMed stationary. Only way it isn't is with moving meditation, which was NEVER brought up - More experience team wide in combat, war, and facing force users Things to Note for Kip: - Adapted well - Made sure to respond to each point, even if not all were successful - Team cohesion is phenomenal - Shann's were incredibly powerful Jedi - Kit and Plo make an excellent duo, with skills to at the very least, hold off Corran and Jaina - 4 vs 2 force user wise is a really BIG advantage, however, Star countered it at every turn Both debaters did a great job presenting their sides, however, after it all I am of the Opinion that it is clear, to me at least, who is the victor and why that is. It is not due to the arguments themselves, no, those were all put forward excellently, but the points covered in the arguments merely favored him much more heavily and I felt that due to this, many more of Star's points were able to be applicable and not as easily cancelled out. I know others will disagree... but meh! We all have our own opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) Boba's armor is mandalorian already, no one knows each other at the start unless they would know them in canon so basically no on your team knows durge except Boba. This I don't think is true. Durge was a famed bounty hunter with a thousand years of career and he was one of the leader of the CIS. Jaina and Corran doesn't have to meet Durge face to face to know him. Edited July 1, 2015 by cs_zoltan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) "Note at this stage the debate is over, so no rebuttals."Just a reminder folks. No further arguments are being considered. Spectators are also only permitted one response. Edited July 1, 2015 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Spectators are also only permitted one response. But I already made 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 But I already made 6. http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111222381/4481256-2205664613-R3C56.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111222381/4481256-2205664613-R3C56.gif Cipher...wait for it...9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) Cipher...wait for it...9.http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111222381/4481292-4177793032-qT25F.gif Noted. Edited July 1, 2015 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111222381/4481292-4177793032-qT25F.gif Noted. https://youtu.be/Aa97jhVnCkc?t=18m8s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowMudkip Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 @Silenceo, you said that I never mentioned battle med being mobile, but I did. We see battle meditation always used in large scale combat, because that is where it makes the biggest dent, thus it would actually require active meditation in order to use the ability on such large scale. However we don't see meditation used in small scale combat, so why would we assume that it requires the same level of concentration as large scale meditation? Also, we are speaking about Bastila Shan, the greatest user of battle meditation in the star wars mythos. She mastered the ability before her prime. She will have no trouble with it at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 We did see it used in small scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 @Silenceo, you said that I never mentioned battle med being mobile, but I did. Except that missed my point by a mile. Been trying to find the exact source, but there was something regarding Meetra and 'Moving Meditation' which is what allowed her to use BM without having to sit and meditate. Now, where did it go... Though, Sel most likely knows exactly what I am talking about. Essentially it is a completely separate skill, that I did not see mentioned at all, which makes any moving while using BM completely impossible, unless I missed the reference to the skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) Except that missed my point by a mile. Been trying to find the exact source, but there was something regarding Meetra and 'Moving Meditation' which is what allowed her to use BM without having to sit and meditate. Now, where did it go... Though, Sel most likely knows exactly what I am talking about. Essentially it is a completely separate skill, that I did not see mentioned at all, which makes any moving while using BM completely impossible, unless I missed the reference to the skill. Yep, I know that theory as a major cop-out with no supporting evidence, to be honest. Always been hopeful of it being an actual thing, and it makes sense, but it has no place in a debating scenario as it's pure conjecture. Edited July 1, 2015 by Selenial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Yep, I know that theory as a major cop-out with no support in evidence, to be honest. Always been hopeful of it being an actual thing, and it makes sense, but it has no place in a debating scenario as it's pure conjecture. I see. Though, I still don't recall either of the Shann's using it while moving (game mechanics aside) but then, I have barely done any reading concerning this time period. (Goes to quadruple check the posts to check things) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 This is the difference: Like Sel said it's as much a debater vs debater as team vs team. For example in my debate Sil brought up Jerec's Force Destruction. At this point I could've been like "oh well Kenobi is ****ed", but instead I researched Jerec's FD and found out that he couldn't kill a pre-prime Kyle with it. Then I used up that information in my debate. For me it's not enough to prove yourself right, you also have to prove your opponent wrong. But like I said, it's only me. Beni might not care, or think I'm foolish. And since he is your arbiter not me, that's what matters more. Honestly what matters to me is that they went with that information and formed arguments around it. Honestly, as long as I'm not arbitrating I'm happy for any of you to use me like you would a sourcebook. I've already come up with arguments for Shaak Ti, and arguments against Meetra Surik that just pop into my head while I'm debating elsewhere, I'm more than happy to share. Not like it's any different, asking me and consulting a respect thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) Not like it's any different, asking me and consulting a respect thread. Edited July 1, 2015 by Silenceo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Can we just appreciate that this book is called Benny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Honestly what matters to me is that they went with that information and formed arguments around it. Honestly, as long as I'm not arbitrating I'm happy for any of you to use me like you would a sourcebook. I've already come up with arguments for Shaak Ti, and arguments against Meetra Surik that just pop into my head while I'm debating elsewhere, I'm more than happy to share. Not like it's any different, asking me and consulting a respect thread. I'm not sure what is the big fuss about this anyway. It wasn't a tie breaker for me or anything. I'm not really holding this against Shadow, but countering his opponent in such a way would've been a good victory for him. Even if he would've asked you, instead of just getting pointed out for him. But like I said, it doesn't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowMudkip Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 I meant to cut down on bullet points, but considering my copy/paste function failed and lost the entire thing when I tapped back page short cut on accident... No paragraphs! Not a second time... *Loads in clip of 'bullets' and grins* Lets get this going... My vote goes to: StarSquirrel Reasoning: - Addressed points and counter points efficiently - In my mind, defeated some of the paths of victory that Kip relied on - All four of his characters have experience facing other force users - Beskar (sadly, he didn't mention the neck guard...) - Corran's mental powers and reaction times - Jaina's sheer skill with the blade, and while no dark siders, (and it wasn't brought up and didn't weigh into my decision, she did bring back and master Vaapad if I recall correctly) - BMed stationary. Only way it isn't is with moving meditation, which was NEVER brought up - More experience team wide in combat, war, and facing force users Things to Note for Kip: - Adapted well - Made sure to respond to each point, even if not all were successful - Team cohesion is phenomenal - Shann's were incredibly powerful Jedi - Kit and Plo make an excellent duo, with skills to at the very least, hold off Corran and Jaina - 4 vs 2 force user wise is a really BIG advantage, however, Star countered it at every turn Both debaters did a great job presenting their sides, however, after it all I am of the Opinion that it is clear, to me at least, who is the victor and why that is. It is not due to the arguments themselves, no, those were all put forward excellently, but the points covered in the arguments merely favored him much more heavily and I felt that due to this, many more of Star's points were able to be applicable and not as easily cancelled out. I know others will disagree... but meh! We all have our own opinions. Thank you Silenceo, for telling me what I did right, and what I could have improved on. This is my first time doing anything like this, so any pointers are extremely helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) Thank you Silenceo, for telling me what I did right, and what I could have improved on. This is my first time doing anything like this, so any pointers are extremely helpful. Glad to be of service. Until about a year and a half or so, give or take, ago I had never done anything like this either. Heck, my arguments are STILL a mess... yet somehow I won the Kaggath... Yeah I am not sure how that happened either. The point is, I am sure you will get pretty dang good at it the more you continue to participate in such events. Side Note: (Suspects a conspiracy theory) "They threw it to get me deeper involved on these forums, I just know it!" *Twitches uncontrollably* "I am not crazy!" *Slight pause* "No! SHUT UP! No, not you, the guy in the corner over there." *Points to empty air* *Stares at the air, nodding in agreement with something* "Nothing to see here, move along. This is not the forum member you are looking for." /Sarcasmnorealconspiracytheoryitwasforlaughs Edited July 2, 2015 by Silenceo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowMudkip Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Well my ISP is not being very nice today, so I'm pinging way higher than I should. Silenceo, entertain me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Well my ISP is not being very nice today, so I'm pinging way higher than I should. Silenceo, entertain me. QUERY: Are you sure you want me to 'entertain' you? STATEMENT: If so, I believe I know JUST what this calls for... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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