SWTOR Duelling Tournament - Heats/Round 1B: ShadowMudkip vs StarSquirrel

[raandomname]

I'm liking the silver/grey Random, I think it's working well for ya

Thanks. I really like it too. I will still always love my turquoise, but this is still really nice, especially, because it is imo the only color that sort of fits the Sith theme without being so dark that it becomes uncomfortable to read.

[Beniboybling]

Thanks for the post Star and good points.

 

Anyway with we are officially moving on to Stage 2: The Vote. To remind you of what this entails:

 

"The second stage commences when the Arbiter decides the debate has run its course, at this point spectators will be able and be encouraged to provide, if they so wish, a detailed analysis/personal verdict on who they think will win and why based on the arguments made. Note at this stage the debate is over, so no rebuttals."

 

So no further arguments from the main participators at this stage. As for advice as to how to proceed, I think Sel has established a good basis, not that I am demanding anything comprehensive, I'd just like to here your thoughts.

 

Altogether well done to both Mudkip and Star, you've put forth excellent points, reaching a decision will not be easy.

Edited June 30, 2015 by Beniboybling

[cs_zoltan]

Well I'm gona say it at the start, I will use my Sel given right and not actually vote either of them:

You could also casts vote without even picking a side by simply pointing out pros and cons of each.

 

I don't think this thread should've been called so soon. Mostly they were just throwing feats and quotes around, then they were pinned down by battle med vs force meld, when both of them sucks tbh (more on that later). It was also held back by the debate of game canon, that didn't do any favours to them. And more importantly what I missed the most, what has the best chance to actually convince me is that they were so preoccupied by why their team would won that they didn't explain how they would won and how they would not lose. In other words too much feats, not enough application of said feats for scenarios and duels.

An example for that is Shadow brought up that Fisto can duel more than one person with his mastery of Shii-Cho, but didn't say why on earth would Jaina and Corran duel him simultaneously, especially after they recognise Shii-cho.

 

So I'm gona address such faults and some of the victories:

 

Battle med vs Force meld

 

You guys spent so much time on this when it so easy to shut down. As Sel pointed out Star's team can't use FM, so that cuts it short. A shame it wasn't brought up by Shadow, I might've even voted for him after such a victory

In turn Star also missed something that could've put a huge dent in Shadow's team. BM can't be used while also fighting. Shadow said that it's only because of the large scale of army vs army battles, but it also applies to team vs team fights.

 

Joining Farfalla, Othone, Lsu, and her own apprentice Sarro Xaj on board Lsu's vessel, the Justice Crusader, Worror acted as the ship's navigator, and he plotted the perilous route through space into the Deep Core. Lsu expressed concern for the reliability of the hyperspace lane to Tython, but Worror deemed the route safe, and the team made their way into the Core. Upon arriving on Tython right behind their quarry, the Jedi landed in the Crusader and entered the temple of Belia Darzu where the two Sith Lords were. As two entrances provided access to the temple, Farfalla's plan was to eliminate any opportunity for the Sith's escape, by having Knights Othone and Xaj enter through one door, while he and Lsu went in through the other. Armed only with the Force, Worror was to follow behind his fellow Masters, and support them as he had done during the war with his battle meditation. Upon entry, combat immediately ensued between the Jedi and Darths Bane and Zannah. Meanwhile, Worror found a corner of the room where he could both practice his meditations and stay clear of the battle.

 

Despite the fierce offensive dueling style of Bane and the near-impenetrable defensive tactics of Zannah, Worror's battle meditation was successfully bolstering his allies' own skills, steadily maintaining the flow of the battle in the Jedi's favor. However, when Bane realized Worror was behind the Jedi's empowerment, he attempted to kill the Ithorian. Worror's life was saved when Othone pushed Worror out of harm's way, though this resulted in a disruption of Worror's concentration. The effects were immediately realized by the Jedi, and Xaj, Lsu, and Farfalla were soon cut down in succession.

 

It's not called meditation for nothing. So yeah, huge missed opportunity there Star. With that in mind Shadow would've had to choose fighting and equal fight or fighting with BM.

 

Terrain/Alter Environment/BM

 

Here I found Star more convincing. He nice listed why the arena favours his team, but didn't address why it would not help the enemy (it's something I missed generally in this debate, too much time spent with their own team). While Shadow's only advantage I see is Alter Environment. But that also has limited usage. It won't be like this: Fog -> Star loses.

I think one of the two real advantage that brings is countering Star's argument of Fett jetpacking above and coordinating movement. Which I don't think Star really needs. Jaina and Corran can sense the enemy just as they can sense them, and Durge is just a beast.

The other is to hide a potential BMing jedi. Since we know they can't use BM and fight simultaneously, if Shadow chooses to use BM after all, that jedi would have to hide. At this point he faces a dilemma. Is he gona use Bastila so he can enjoy the stronger and better fighter Satele? Or is he gona use Satele so she can hide her presence from the jedi?

Either has it's ups and downs. Bastila will be quickly detected by Jaina or Corran, while using Satele puts him on the back foot, since Bastila is nowhere near the fighter Satele is.

 

Scenarios

 

I really missed this part. Only Shadow brought this up, and only in his closing statement. Star really should've made one of his own to show how he would win.

Sadly this won't be a big win for Shadow because he failed to convince me. Shadow used some leaps of logic I can't really put anywhere.

For example:

step 1: fog

step 2: lure Boba

step 3: ??

step 4: profit

I'm not sure I buy that. Why would a fog stop Jaina and Corran's sense? Why would Boba stupidly walk into a trap? Where's Durge?

 

The other scenario of Durge turning on Boba? Yeah I don't think so. Boba knows Durge, Jaina and Corran lived after the Clone Wars. I can imagine them knowing about one of the leaders of the CIS who also is a famed bounty hunter. But even if that all fails, the moment Durge turns on Boba Corran can mind **** him. And I don't think Shadow's team can really exploit that. They will be like a 100m apart, they will either have to go around or go through the middle that's full of obstacles. I don't see Shadow's team get to Star fast.

 

And of course both scenario is faulty because of BM.

 

Team work

 

While Star covered his weaknesses very well, it's still there. I don't think anything drastic will happen in his team like Durge friendly fire or such, but his synergy is still below a full jedi team. So I feel Shadow comes out on top of this.

[raandomname]

Honestly I wholeheartedly agree with cs, the participants have had much too little time to debate to come to a meaningful conclusion.

[Beniboybling]

I don't disagree, both sides would have benefit on focuses on how abilities are applied in battle, as opposed to merely what they possess, something I brought up several pages ago.

 

Definitely room for improvement there, but some good points where made.

[ShadowMudkip]

Here is my concluding post

 

 

Disadvantages of Star's team

-not as much coordination

-two non-force users become a liability

-can't counter battle meditation

-can't battle meld

- Boba and Durge have many disadvantages (listed above)

-know little about my team

 

This isn't a rebuttal, simply pointing to out Zoltan that I did point out they cant FM.

Edited June 30, 2015 by ShadowMudkip

[ShadowMudkip]

I don't disagree, both sides would have benefit on focuses on how abilities are applied in battle, as opposed to merely what they possess, something I brought up several pages ago.

 

Definitely room for improvement there, but some good points where made.

 

Honestly, I felt the same way, but felt that my arguments would have gotten lost in the prior debate, so I simply rolled some of them into my final post, which left some of them incomplete. Twas my fault though.

[tunewalker]

Think this one might be going to stage 2 a little early, but will run through the thread and give my breakdown when I get home. (are we not supposed to be using the "corrected" information as valid information for the debate? I thought we could but CS's points seems to sound like we cant, unless it was the original poster that made that point. Edited June 30, 2015 by tunewalker

[cs_zoltan]

This isn't a rebuttal, simply pointing to out Zoltan that I did point out they cant FM.

 

Yes after Sel told you.

[cs_zoltan]

are we not supposed to be using the "corrected" information as valid information for the debate? I thought we could but CS's points seems to sound like we cant, unless it was the original poster that made that point.

 

I don't think so. This is not just team vs team, but also debater vs debater:

 

1. 
    
   
2. Avoid bias: Make your arguments without personal opinion, based around fact. This includes all previous knowledge of characters. If you viewed Shaak Ti as far greater than Jerec, but Zoltan failed to actually prove that in this debate, then make that fact known and afford the Shaak Ti vs Jerec battle to Silenceo. Don't make your vote a post about who you originally thought would win and who your favourite team is.
    
    
   
3. Avoid new arguments: I'm here to judge not just which team wins, but which debater showed why which team wins. If one of them has missed key information that would have helped them win, then the fact they've missed that is an unfortunate mistake on their part. By bringing up information that they have not, you're pointing out flaws in their arguments and areas where they have failed, not helping their team win. On the flip side, if you chose to bring such information up while criticising the person you feel has been defeated, feel free.

[tunewalker]

I don't think so. This is not just team vs team, but also debater vs debater:

 

Ya I understood that, but I thought that's why corrections were allowed DURING the debate. To ensure that info that was being presented was 100% accurate. For example if Sel had said "you cant use force melds" and both combatants just ignored her would that mean we should all assume they can... Seems a bit counter intuitive to putting in corrections with out being able to use them.

[cs_zoltan]

Ya I understood that, but I thought that's why corrections were allowed DURING the debate. To ensure that info that was being presented was 100% accurate. For example if Sel had said "you cant use force melds" and both combatants just ignored her would that mean we should all assume they can... Seems a bit counter intuitive to putting in corrections with out being able to use them.

 

I see. Well I didn't actually presume because Sel pointed out the mistake with FM then Star team will have FM. Just a shame that it wasn't Shadow who did that, if you get what I'm saying.

If it was up to Shadow, and Sel doesn't come along to say that it can't be done, then right now Star would happily enjoy FM.

I personally see that as a mistake Shadow made, but that's just me.

[ShadowMudkip]

Yes after Sel told you.

 

I fail to see the difference

[cs_zoltan]

I fail to see the difference

 

This is the difference:

If it was up to Shadow, and Sel doesn't come along to say that it can't be done, then right now Star would happily enjoy FM.

 

Like Sel said it's as much a debater vs debater as team vs team. For example in my debate Sil brought up Jerec's Force Destruction. At this point I could've been like "oh well Kenobi is ****ed", but instead I researched Jerec's FD and found out that he couldn't kill a pre-prime Kyle with it. Then I used up that information in my debate. For me it's not enough to prove yourself right, you also have to prove your opponent wrong.

 

But like I said, it's only me. Beni might not care, or think I'm foolish. And since he is your arbiter not me, that's what matters more.

[ShadowMudkip]

This is the difference:

 

 

Like Sel said it's as much a debater vs debater as team vs team. For example in my debate Sil brought up Jerec's Force Destruction. At this point I could've been like "oh well Kenobi is ****ed", but instead I researched Jerec's FD and found out that he couldn't kill a pre-prime Kyle with it. Then I used up that information in my debate. For me it's not enough to prove yourself right, you also have to prove your opponent wrong.

 

But like I said, it's only me. Beni might not care, or think I'm foolish. And since he is your arbiter not me, that's what matters more.

 

I tried looking for ways to defeat FM, but nothing in the respect threads or wookie said anything about Sel's quote, so I was apprehensive at best in its acceptance. In fact, in my first rough draft of my final post, I never included anything on FM at all. There's a difference between accepting assistance, and something becoming known because of a super obscure quote.

[tunewalker]

Back to original, Shadow wins...basically the post that Karadron just linked. The post that Star covered that weakness I felt was countered by that post, both in the "corran wouldnt know to start it" and Star's "once he starts on his target nothing gets him to stop" so whether Corran could illusion Durge after the fight started or not was kind of irrellevant since he wouldnt do so at the start Durge would START on Boba thus turning into a 2v4 which is a problem for any one that faces it.

 

Freaking me out when I make a decision on a post and cant find the post that made that decision. but yes that one paragraph Karadron linked was kind of the deciding factor for me. Sorry star, was with you with nearly everything.... except that was a killer shot for me.

Edited July 1, 2015 by tunewalker

[StarSquirrel]

I'd suggest you reread my arguments again Tune. I made repeated arguments from both Corran and Durge's perspectives as to why he wouldnt turn on Boba and did so in numerous posts. Id be an idiot not to. I wont add anything but I covered a lot of material and listed a LOT of useful skills/weapons and how theyd be used... itd be best if all my posts were THOROUGHLY reread as I tend to write 2-3 sentences on how itll be used once id shown that it could be used. Also remember to check all the bullet points.

[tunewalker]

I'd suggest you reread my arguments again Tune. I made repeated arguments from both Corran and Durge's perspectives as to why he wouldnt turn on Boba and did so in numerous posts. Id be an idiot not to. I wont add anything but I covered a lot of material and listed a LOT of useful skills/weapons and how theyd be used... itd be best if all my posts were THOROUGHLY reread as I tend to write 2-3 sentences on how itll be used once id shown that it could be used. Also remember to check all the bullet points.

 

if you are refering to here http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=8276688&postcount=19 or - Corran has feats of illusions, guarding against mind probes, and Mind Tricks that put all your characters to shame I read it, it was countered by Oh wait, cant find the post, did I read that post in another thread... did Shadow not say the lack of familiarity of Corran with Durge meant that he wouldnt start out... i cant find it.... well goodness if Mudkip missed that point in this thread after pointing it out in another and I just remember EVERY Thread, well he is about to get a SERIOUS point deducted... I read yours it seems though I read a post Shadow made ABOUT this thread, in another thread that with out it being here... shoots himself in the foot.

[tunewalker]

Redacted found case for the original.... Edited July 1, 2015 by tunewalker

[karadron]

Here is my concluding post

 

Another possibility, since I just got confirmation from Beni, is that Durge does indeed attack Boba Fett, making my team's job that much easier. How? you might ask. It is very simply. Participants will only know prior knowledge, and names of both their teammates and their opposition. This is not a problem for my team, but it is for Star's. No one is going to know of Durge except Koon and Fisto and possibly Fett, though I doubt it. Thus, Corran wouldn't initially cast illusions on Durge to make him behave. Once battle meditation starts, the opposition's teamwork will start to crumble, and the first victim will be Durge. Durge has no way to fight the effects of battle med, and can be influenced to attack Boba Fett. This effectively takes out half Star's team, until one kills the other, or Corran and Jaina find a way to subdue Durge. However, this will be near impossible, as they will be fighting my team, and attempting to fight the effects of Bastila's battle meditation. Even if they find time to try and shield Durge, it might not be enough. By then, Durge will be so overcome with bloodlust, and his hatred for mandalorians, that their is not much Jaina or Corran can do. From here, my team engages and defeats Jaina and Corran, whether they are together or seperate. Then, they finish off Durge, who is probably the only one left.

 

tune is this what you read?

[tunewalker]

tune is this what you read?

 

where did you find it....I cant find it in this thread? did he accidently post it in yours or something???

Edited July 1, 2015 by tunewalker

[karadron]

where did you find it....I cant find it in this thread? did he accidently post it in yours or something???

 

Page 17, Post 162, Second to last paragraph.

[tunewalker]

Page 17, Post 162, Second to last paragraph.

 

Found it, no shot in foot, yep that did it.... now if only I could restate my original....

[StarSquirrel]

Except he's repeating an argument I've adressed at least 3 times (sometimes preemptively)... so nothing new. Also Corran was obviously shown to have the superior mental powers there is no freakin way the Jedi could influence Durge before he's caught up fighting them and no one ever said anything about how to stoo Corran from manipulating Durge Edited July 1, 2015 by StarSquirrel

[tunewalker]

Except he's repeating an argument I've adressed at least 3 times (sometimes preemptively)... so nothing new. Also Corran was obviously shown to have the superior mental powers there is no freakin way the Jedi could influence Durge before he's caught up fighting them and no one ever said anything about how to stoo Corran from manipulating Durge

 

That's not the point. Like I said, and like you yourself said. There were elements in that post that made the point. It has 0 to do with HIS Jedi Manipulating Durge in any way to me. It has to do with Durge's STARTING personality and the fact that Corran DOESNT KNOW that starting personality. So it doesnt matter if Corran CAN start out with and Illusion on Durge he WONT because he doesnt know to do so. And then in your OWN admission once Durge starts on something he isnt going to swap until its done, so casting the Illusion AFTER THE FACT isnt going to help in any way, he is already locked in and locked on.

It doesnt matter how good his people are in Mind manipulation it doesnt matter how good yours is in mind manipulation if they dont know to start the manipulation before he is locked in, your own post states he wont swap once started as shadow brought up the point that the illusion would not instantly start the thing he is going to start on is Boba, and it doesnt matter how good Corran is, he isnt swapping off Boba till done.