Beniboybling Posted June 27, 2015 Author Share Posted June 27, 2015 Alrighty, sounds good. Im choosing Juggernaught then. Very good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raandomname Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Very good. Lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted June 27, 2015 Author Share Posted June 27, 2015 I'm also going to add the following rule concerning game mechanics for clarification and future reference: Game mechanics are to be treated as canon, unless they can be proven to exist purely for gameplay purposes. If that is something Aurbere and Selenial can agree on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) Tunewalker you are the one who keeps ignoring my points to throw insults, at least I am actually acknowledging what your saying and explaining why you are wrong, I'm appreciate the same courtesy. But if your not prepared to do that then this discussion is pointless. I'll say it one final time, there is no "true canon", BioWare has specifically stated that they don't plan on making one because it doesn't exist. Its not a case of us not knowing, it's just not there. They are therefore all equally valid realistic possibilities, and none of those possibilities can be claimed to be false. So for example in JK Act 3 ending the HoT can either choose to refuse to kill the Emperor, or ragdoll him, BioWare has not said either option is the false one, they are therefore both equally possible. Even if the HoT doesn't ragdoll the Emperor that doen't mean he couldn't even he had chosen to. Likewise in the JC Act 3 ending you can choose to redeem the First Son, or destroy him by telekinetically dominating him. Again even if you choose to redeem him, that doesn't mean you couldn't dominate him if you chose to, they are all realistic possibilities. The same can be said for for example KOTOR II, in the DS option we have Kreia recovering from impaling herself in the stomach and intepreting the Jedi Masters' styles in help the Exile beat them. Even though these events are non-canon, they still represent realistic possibilities, Kreia could have done those things if the Exile followed that path. The fact that there are no non-canon storylines in SWTOR only reinforces them all as realistic, accurate possibilities. Go and look at any respect thread on the protags, all their abilities/possibilities are listed for that reason. I'm not having this debate with you because I'm "blind and arrogant", and frankly I'm perfectly happy to establish rulings on this matter. The reason I'm having this debate with you is because I want you to understand my perspective and actually accept the reasoning behind any rulings, rather than begrudgingly abiding by it, but your refusing to even listen to what I'm saying, so it would appear force cooperation is the only option. Shame but I tried.I think we should for the most part, as I have said, accept all possibilities as equally valid. There are only a very few possibilities I can think of that eliminate others as possible such as race, gender and indeed advanced classes. So for race and gender I think it best to leave that ambiguous, and in that respect its non-applicable to the debate. However I think it should be allowed for players to choose an advanced class and the abilities that come with it. Let's not go as far as disciplines though, that's a little too complex and frankly the whole thing is a pure game mechanic. I also think, and this is no doubt already assumed, that we should choose the standard/assumed DS/LS alignment. Other than that though its realistically not possible to create an all encompassing rule that every situation, best to establish a line of reasoning by which we approach everything on a case by case basis. And again I'm going with the notion that all options should be treated as equally valid as portrayals of abilities, as far as they don't actually eliminate the possibility of other abilities being had. Basically we should and only can treat this on a case by case basis. Hopefully this is something we can all get behind. I don't which to draw this matter out any longer. The issue with this logic, and I have said this, is the infinities = that. Infinities galaxy is just as much "equal possibility" as any of the stuff in this game. There IS a true canon as only 1 possible outcome CAN be true in any particular time line we will never KNOW IT though. Case by case basis creates a double standard where the person can say this is allowed... Cus... I said so, and this is disallowed.... because I said so.... and that's what I am standing against. That's why every time you guys say well all paths are "possible" paths and follow the same laws of the universe makes me point to the infinities story lines because they represent an alternate but equally POSSIBLE time line. And you still havent said it...... you are using traits abilities and characteristics of characters that you do not KNOW the true canon of, that we may never (and likely will never) know the true canon of and that stats and characteristics using them are based on POTENTIALLY (do you even know what this is cus so far you havent even had the guts to say this) Non-canon material. Yes the respect threads use it, yes Wookie uses it, but guess what? all of those I have seen so far with any kind of humility to them admit that they are making assumptions on canon and that some of the things could be Non-canon. I am not saying it is all non-canon only that we have no way of knowing what is and is not canon. Edit: to better explain what I have been saying from the start using your own words.... which is why your "explanation" does nothing there is no "true canon", BioWare has specifically stated that they don't plan on making one because it doesn't exist. = "all paths are Non-canon". "True" canon= Canon, if there is NO true canon, there is no canon. No Canon= Non-canon. You have never explained why I am wrong, you have used no sources beyond your OWN opinion, I have linked you HOW MANY places that backed my opinion up (the leland one doesnt count because as we saw we have 2 different interpretations of that quote, my interpretation has been backed by my OTHER links... yours hasnt) . You have proven nothing, this entire time, backed by nothing except your own conviction which as I just showed above isnt even consistent as the logic falls apart on itself instantaneously. I havent addressed that because I honestly didnt understand that YOUR "explination" was that "non existent canon= canon" some how, it didnt make sense so I didnt address it. All I heard was "I CANT for 3 seconds admit or acknowledge that an opinion other then mine can be right, even when it is not the opinion of a single individual" And this is the current subtext of every one of your posts. You cant even say you "might" be wrong... nope 100%.... that is arrogance. Edit: to be further clear, I understand where you are coming from, but from everything we know about how canon works, if you are using this game we CAN NOT be 100% sure its canon, and Can NOT pretend that it is. Bioware could change their mind and decide to say 1 is canon everything we have "assumed" could be wrong by that. That makes ALL possibles equally WRONG. You have stated all possible scenarios are equally right, thus all ARE Right, by that extention all are equally wrong, thus all are wrong. That's the impass I have acknowledged that some MAY be right, you have yet to acknowledge that some MAY be wrong. Edited June 27, 2015 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted June 27, 2015 Author Share Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) Except your ignoring the fact that Infinities are non-canon, and don't at all apply to Legends continuity. The authors are under no obligation to accurately represent characters or their abilities, and therefore cannot be treated as valid. And they can't be non-canon Tunewalker, that is tantamount to saying SWTOR didn't happen. Your assuming that because there is no true canon they are all non-canon, that just isn't a logical conclusion to make. You certainly can't say on that basis that because they are non-canon, they are inaccurate portrayals of character abilities. Really Tunewalker I don't know what you want, first of all you need to come to the terms with the fact that I legitmately reject your opinion as false, and dispense with this "be true to yourself" nonsense. Then you need to comes to terms with the fact that regardless of what I actually think, this is how we are going to operate regardless if we want to use these characters in proper debate. So please stop accusing us of being stubborn and arrogant when you refuse to pipe down until we say "yes Tunewalker you are right" when it will have no effect on how we proceed anyway, the only reason for that course of action would be to satisfy your own ego. Beyond that I've lain down as much guidelines as to how to approach this situation as I can, if you want to suggest some yourself then please do so, but at this point I don't know what your asking and its growing very tiresome. EDIT: I'm appreciate it if you agree to disagree Tunewalker, its quite obvious that your not going to accept what I'm saying as true and I have no intention of entertaining your line of reasoning. But the fact that this will have no impact on how this debate will proceed makes this display a waste of time and effort for both of us. Edited June 27, 2015 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) Except your ignoring the fact that Infinities are non-canon, and don't at all apply to Legends continuity. The authors are under no obligation to accurately represent characters or their abilities, and therefore cannot be treated as valid. And they can't be non-canon Tunewalker, that is tantamount to saying SWTOR didn't happen. Your assuming that because there is no true canon they are all non-canon, that just isn't a logical conclusion to make. You certainly can't say on that basis that because they are non-canon, they are inaccurate portrayals of character abilities. Really Tunewalker I don't know what you want, first of all you need to come to the terms with the fact that I legitmately reject your opinion as false, and dispense with this "be true to yourself" nonsense. Then you need to comes to terms with the fact that regardless of what I actually think, this is how we are going to operate regardless if we want to use these characters in proper debate. So please stop accusing us of being stubborn and arrogant when you refuse to pipe down until we say "yes Tunewalker you are right" when it will have no effect on how we proceed anyway, the only reason for that course of action would be to satisfy your own ego. Beyond that I've lain down as much guidelines as to how to approach this situation as I can, if you want to suggest some yourself then please do so, but at this point I don't know what your asking and its growing very tiresome. EDIT: I'm appreciate it if you agree to disagree Tunewalker, its quite obvious that your not going to accept what I'm saying as true and I have no intention of entertaining your line of reasoning. But the fact that this will have no impact on how this debate will proceed makes this display a waste of time and effort for both of us. I actually think my statement is mis understood.... going to correct something real quick... Your assuming that because there is no true canon they are all non-canon, that just isn't a logical conclusion to make. This is wrong. I am assuming that there is no true canon, thus the canon or non-canon nature of the material we see can not be determined, thus it is POSSIBLE that what we decide to use is non-canon material. ^ This is what I want people to acknowledge This is what you have NEVER proven. Edited June 27, 2015 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 http://www.quickmeme.com/img/70/70ddcb7804f220f7094b9a393afa26be27f4b5917c88b3685a6ace0ff1688218.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted June 27, 2015 Author Share Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) But it's not possible. BioWare have said they don't plan on establishing a canon storyline, that means they don't plan on establishing any storyline as non-canon either, as false. The whole point of this move is that they don't want to undermine player stories by saying "that didn't happen." Truthhood and falsehood are two sides of the same coin. If you accept something as possibly false them you must accept their exists a possible truth as well, but BioWare has made it quite clear that no such truth exists, therefore, there can be no falsehoods either, you can't have one without the other. Simply put there is no false/wrong story. And because there are no truths or falsehoods we can only treat them as equal possibilities. EDIT: A possibility for the record is something that could have happened regardless of whether it did or did not happen. However even if BioWare did establish a canon storyline that wouldn't invalidate the rest as credible evidence anymore than it invalidated the DS paths in KOTOR 1 & 2 as evidence of character ability. Because even though it didn't happen it could have happened, it is possible, events just didn't occur in that manner. Because there is no reason for the writers to portray character's inaccurately just because its an alternate path. And again you'll raise Infinities and again I'll point out the nature of Infinities means that the authors could portray characters inaccurately if they wanted to, because it was established from the get go that "this stuff didn't happen", its complete outside of continuity. The DS paths in KOTOR II and KOTOR I were established as legitimate possibilities, and in that respect the writers were obliged to continue to portray character abilities in an accurate, realistic manner. Regardless that only applies to KOTOR and KOTOR II, BioWare hasn't established a canon story for SWTOR. But I'm kinda fed up at this point. If you can't give me one good reason why accepting your perspective is going to change how be run this tournament, I am not going to continue having this discussion for your personal sake. Edited June 27, 2015 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) A possibility for the record is something that could, or could not, have happened regardless of whether it did or did not happen. fixed Edited June 27, 2015 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted June 27, 2015 Author Share Posted June 27, 2015 Doesn't change the fact that is a realistic possibility. If a slice of buttered toast falls on the floor, its possible that it could land on the buttered side, or that it could not. The fact that it could not doesn't change the fact landing on the buttered side could possibly and realistically occur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raandomname Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Can we get an approximation on when Round 2 will start? Id appreciate knowing approximately how much time I still have to prepare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Can we get an approximation on when Round 2 will start? Id appreciate knowing approximately how much time I still have to prepare. I believe they'll start after Round 1 ends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted June 27, 2015 Author Share Posted June 27, 2015 Pretty much so its hard to get an approximate. Might be later rather than sooner seeing as Sel & Karadron haven't really got started yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 I believe they'll start after Round 1 ends. http://i.imgur.com/Nmmxpcj.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Pretty much so its hard to get an approximate. Might be later rather than sooner seeing as Sel & Karadron haven't really got started yet. Ohhh...so Aurbere's was a serious answer. I thought that was obvious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted June 27, 2015 Author Share Posted June 27, 2015 That's basically our answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Ohhh...so Aurbere's was a serious answer. I thought that was obvious Rofl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Should've known Aurbere is not good enough a troll to say that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Should've known Aurbere is not good enough a troll to say that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) To the dismay of everyone... i am home However even if BioWare did establish a canon storyline that wouldn't invalidate the rest as credible evidence anymore than it invalidated the DS paths in KOTOR 1 & 2 as evidence of character ability. Because even though it didn't happen it could have happened, it is possible, events just didn't occur in that manner. Because there is no reason for the writers to portray character's inaccurately just because its an alternate path. Wanted to address this a bit further. N-canon is N-canon regardless of what source it comes from. We have the claim that because it happened in a game that the C-canon stuff happened in the N-canon stuff is more accurate then the N-canon stuff present in the Infinities stuff. This is VERY easily debunked Infinities Leia vs Real Leia Differences Situations that lead to a different set of powers and abilities Similarities Relationships Personalities look, basically every thing other then the situations were kept in tact. Light Side Jedi Guardian Male Reven vs Dark Side Jedi Consular Female Revan Differences Looks Relationships Personalities Situations Powers and Abilties Similarities Back story.. Kind of... Just by this alone that is 100% debunked, just because it occurs in the game where the C-canon material is does NOT make the N-canon material any more or less N-canon. Mostly incoherent rant that probably doesnt help much wrapped in spoiler tags, it can ignored or read at the person's disgression. All it is, is illustrating how we cant have "all is C-canon" or "all is N-canon" as obi-wan said only a sith deals in absolutes (as he deals in an absolute....) but the answer is "all are possible C-canon" and "all are possibly N-canon" at the same time. We have it directly stated that unless its contradicting it is "Canon" or in this case "C-canon" the problem when you have a 3 branching tree (in just ONE dialog option) that you can not determine which is and is not "C-canon" what you are left with is a 33.3% chance that each of the dialog options is C-canon, but also by that Extention you have a 66.6% chance that each of the dialog options are N-canon (since if 1 is C-canon the other 2 automatically contradict and become N-canon) but since we are never going to be able to determine which one that C-canon is and which one that N-canon is we can NOT assume all are C-canon nor can we assume they are all N-canon. Illustrated example Option A contradicts options B and C Option B contradicts Options A and C Option C contradicts Options A and B by the fact that all 3 contradict each other all 3 can not exist at the same time, however since we can not determine which one is the "c-canon" answer and which ones are not we are left in a state where all 3 are "ambigous continuity" neither C-canon or N-canon and by selecting one as C-canon we could technically be selecting the "wrong one" even if there is no "wrong one" because all 3 can not be right, just like all 3 can not be wrong. Now to some meat and potatoes along with an Actual ruling and an actual debate on that ruling..... If we are going to allow game characters and game mechanics for those characters for the purpose of this tournament I believe we should allow BOTH advanced classes AT THE SAME TIME. Now the reasoning behind this is many fold and is going to be long winded because you can approach this problem from SO many angles its kind of funny. First path The first path is the "equally possible" arguement that was used, both are equally possible choices in game and as such should not be ignored or "discounted" at any point during the debate. Though this may be why Beni decided on the "you pick" option which brings me to other points Second Path This one is a bit longer and windier. This is the "game mechanics with the sole purpose of game play" argument. Which becomes a bit trickier do to some misconceptions about the nature of the advanced class choice which I will go into now. 1. It is not Mandatory, it is 100% skippable while its not optimal we have done SM ops with level 55 Troopers (not Commando's not Vangaurds... troopers) back when 55 was max level you can play all content of this game with out choosing an advanced class even if it is not optimal to do so. 2. The dialog is basically the same for every class "you must pick a advanced class, these are your options... what is this one... description of its basic idea from a game play perspective disguised as in universe dialog to not break immersion... oh what about this one... same thing, what if I dont want either.. you dont want to do that... ok I pick this one... go to that guy to make your choice, the only difference is the NPC is standing in a different location and has different cloths on. So its truly not unique for any class. 3. It is never mentioned before or after you make the choice, it has no affect on any cut scene or any character interaction or character personality what so ever. Even when you are fighting in the cut scene it does not change how your character fights or what type of weapon he uses even though this choice is supposed to determine your characters fighting style. The only affect it has is on your game play... that is basically the definition of "exists solely for Gameplay" it has 0 effect on the characters or story what so ever and it only effects game play. Third Path Rose tinted glasses. When looking at the star wars universe through a form of Media you are looking through a different kind of lense, occassionally you have to ask your self what kind of lense you are looking through. This is going to be long ... fair warning. How can a character be benevoltent and a tyrant? How can they be a man and a women? how can they be a Twilek and a Human. How can they be a Marader and a Jugernaught? How can they have no name? the answer is the lense, you are looking through a shattered lens. How did the lens get shattered? well that is either 1 of 2 ways. The first is the lens was shattered to begin with (this is my favorite option) no one saw the Hero of Tython or the Emperor's Wrath do EVERYTHING these characters did, but people saw little bits here and little bits there, thus the story of the "emperor's Wrath" is being told by thousands of people right out the gate each of which only got to see a Piece of the full story. Then it got further divided when it was being spread by word of mouth and by the time the story was put back together for us to enjoy it we had the parents telling some kid about it and the kid would ask "Was it a man or a women" the person telling the story doesnt remember because THEY have it as second hand information any way and didnt bother to ask... so they say "women" then the kid asks "was she a twi'lek like us" and of course the person is going to be like "yes of course" and that is basically how you end up with a genderless, specieless protagonist, but in the game play we see glimpses of his fighting. He was all over the place fighting all kinds of wars. The Sith Warriors are specifically known for being taught Form 1, 3, 4, 5, and 7 depending on the choice of advanced class you have acccess to either 1, 4 and 7 or 1, 3 and 5 but are missing the other 2 that "sith warriors" were known for being trained for considering its likely that no one saw everything the Warrior did as the lens is clearly a shattered lens its safe to assume the discrepencies between the Marauder and the Juggernaught are actually not caused by the character but by the fact that the story was being told by different people. The choices we make in game is us deciding to view the story being told from 1 of the thousands of shattered lenses, but the full lens is it put together or at least it should be if we are going to be using all of their feats rather then picking 1 line. This is especially true of combat stuff where 1 person could have seen him duel wielding and thought that's how he always fights, and then another guy saw him wearing heavy armor and thought that's how he always fights... and that's basically how advanced classes came to be any ways. Edit: TL;DR if we are going to utilize game characters utilize them fully IE both advanced classes at the same time... Reasoning is 1. Possible Pathways argument. 2 exists solely for game play purposes and 3. Rose tinted glasses. All three are expanded upon above as to why each could be used for this argument. in first path, second path and third path respectively. The top is usual fair.... Edited June 27, 2015 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 tl;dr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted June 27, 2015 Author Share Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) There is no point discussing this any further when your never going to agree. I'll address what is relevant, the ruling: Picking an advance class is important, and it determines what level of armor you wear and whether what kind of weapons and style you use, situations were it can only be one or the other. We are going to have to determine whether they wear heavy or light armor, use a single blade, dual-blades or a saberstaff etc. I shouldn't need to explain why you can't wear two types of armor or dual wield and single wield at the same time. And that's basically it, so can we accept that and move on? Edited June 27, 2015 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 (edited) There is no point discussing this any further when your never going to agree. I'll address what is relevant, the ruling: Picking an advance class is important, and it determines what level of armor you wear and whether what kind of weapons and style you use, situations were it can only be one or the other. We are going to have to determine whether they wear heavy or light armor, use a single blade, dual-blades or a saberstaff etc. I shouldn't need to explain why you can't wear two types of armor or dual wield and single wield at the same time. And that's basically it, so can we accept that and move on? Well yes, and no. If we are stating we are using this type of weapon and clothing that's cool, but we should still assume (as my above points out) that they are capable of switching should they get the time. For example If they say "single blade and medium armor" we should assume that all force powers that both the Juggernaught and Sentinel as well as all saber styles they use are viable, just knowing that the Sentinel saber styles he is not 100% comfortable with while single wielding, if he gets another sword though with out that free hand he is not comfortable doing things like force push or comfortable using all saber styles as he has his preference while duel wielding but we can't, I feel, assume he can not switch between the styles should he find himself in possetion of the equipment to do so. While armor is different as well, armor is armor, we know the Wrath, for example, has difficulties with Jar'kai, Ataru and Juyo while wearing heavily movement restricting armor (no surprise there considering the high movement needs of those forms) but I wouldnt say he was incapable of it if he stripped his armor down and got a second blade, he would be right at home. Again because of the arguments above. (like I said that's why they WERE the meat and potatoes of that particular post, we have been at an impass on the other for some time I was just hoping to get SOME ONE to acknowledge the possibility that an opinion of some one outside themselves could be right even if they believed it not to be, but that was clearly a waste of time, since everyone seems incapable of doing that.) Edit: to be a bit clearer, I do believe that choice of weapons and armor is needed as to determine what the character is likely to do, but that does not mean he is incapable of the other nor should we discount the credibility of the other as all it should take is a weapon swap. IE he may only carry 1 blade into battle but he is fluent in Jar'kai though in heavy armor his movement is restricted causing him not to prefer that form. With lighter armor he prefers duel wielding as his movement isnt restricted and it better facilitates the use of the fast paces Juyo and Ataru, with out the heavy armor the more defensive Soresu and Shien just arent as appealing though they are still both completely in his arsenal should he need them. Shii-cho are the basics of all forms so it really doesnt matter to him any time he needs to he falls back on it (or who knows he could be a Shii-cho Practitioner as its the only one common to all) Edit 2: further clearity on the other argument 1 more time so that those who were confused can follow along. My understanding Beni says: all options can be canon, thus all options ARE canon. Tune says: All options can or can not be canon, thus the level of canon they are can not be determined, thus it is possible that we utilize non-canon material...as such we must acknowledge that fact... not that all the material is non-canon merely that it is possible that the material is non-canon. Impass reached as I will not call all Canon, and others will not admit to the possibilty that some is not canon. Edited June 28, 2015 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zavierr Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7v06xTJaR7s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7v06xTJaR7s You just summarized Beni and Tune's entire relationship within 2 seconds... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts