Were Twi'leks known to the Sith Empire in the time of Aloysius Kallig?

[Xilizhra]

Talos Drellik confirms that Kallig was himself an alien if you play as an alien Inquisitor, and it seems clear that he should share your own species... but did the Sith Empire have any Twi'leks in its population at the time? Ryloth was first found by the Republic, after all, and its location seems to be in the galactic southeast, far from the galactic northeast-located Sith Empire.

[DarthDymond]

Talos Drellik confirms that Kallig was himself an alien if you play as an alien Inquisitor, and it seems clear that he should share your own species... but did the Sith Empire have any Twi'leks in its population at the time? Ryloth was first found by the Republic, after all, and its location seems to be in the galactic southeast, far from the galactic northeast-located Sith Empire.

The only way Kallig and Tulak Horde's stories make sense is if they were part of (or contemporaries of) the Exiles, the group of Dark Jedi who were banished from the Republic and conquered Korriban / Ziost, founding the Sith Empire as the first Dark Lords of the Sith.

 

If he was a member of the Exiles, Kallig could have been any Republic species (and if he was a Pureblood Sith it would be because he was a contemporary of the Exiles). The only way the alien bloodline could have 'bred true' though would be if there were (A) enough of the appropriate species included among the Exiles' followers, or (B) if the Empire conquered and enslaved colonies of the appropriate species that were outside the Republic (like Tatooine was described as being in Episode I). The Empire did do plenty of conquering up to the Great Hyperspace War, so the second option is actually a distinct possibility.

Edited May 25, 2015 by DarthDymond

[Xilizhra]

The only way Kallig and Tulak Horde's stories make sense is if they were part of (or contemporaries of) the Exiles, the group of Dark Jedi who were banished from the Republic and conquered Korriban / Ziost, founding the Sith Empire as the first Dark Lords of the Sith.

 

If he was a member of the Exiles, Kallig could have been any Republic species (and if he was a Pureblood Sith it would be because he was a contemporary of the Exiles). The only way the alien bloodline could have 'bred true' though would be if there were (A) enough of the appropriate species included among the Exiles' followers, or (B) if the Empire conquered and enslaved colonies of the appropriate species that were outside the Republic (like Tatooine was described as being in Episode I). The Empire did do plenty of conquering up to the Great Hyperspace War, so the second option is actually a distinct possibility.

Didn't the Sith not have lightsabers back then? It'd seem to clash with the fact that Kallig did have one. Unless that was retconned. Though it seems as though I had thought that Ajunta Pall's time was much earlier than it actually was, and that he took over the Sith Empire after the discovery of Ryloth, so I suppose the timeline works out enough after all.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Xilizhra

[DarthDymond]

Didn't the Sith not have lightsabers back then? It'd seem to clash with the fact that Kallig did have one. Unless that was retconned. Though it seems as though I had thought that Ajunta Pall's time was much earlier than it actually was, and that he took over the Sith Empire after the discovery of Ryloth, so I suppose the timeline works out enough after all.

Pretty sure the Exiles were 7000 BBY, so about 3000 years before KOTOR and 3500ish before SWTOR. Karness Muur, one of the Exiles had a lightsaber (the invention of those seems to keep getting pushed back in the timeline).

 

That the Exiles themselves had lightsabers, while they then fell out of use in the Empire in favor of the Alchemical Swords over the following centuries, is one reason it fits best to have Kallig be a contemporary of the Exiles. (Tulak Horde being a 'lightsaber master' who 'fought the Jedi' is another indication in the same vein.)

 

Beyond that, planets are getting discovered, forgotten, and rediscovered all the time (e.g., Tatooine).

Edited May 25, 2015 by DarthDymond

[galaxiesbeyond]

Well, Kallig and Tulak Hord did live about 3000 years before the story, right? So it is possible he could have been one of the descendants of the dark Jedi exiles, but I think he was just red Sith species I don't think he would have been born into a wealthy and privileged noble family if he was not human or "pureblood" red Sith. (Also remember that all "purebloods" are really just a mix of human and the red Sith species that was conquered by Ajunta Pall and the other dark Jedi) The few other races that lived in the Empire at the time were almost always slaves, and it's clear Kallig wasn not a slave, his descendants were enslaved only because the family fell out of favor in Sith society.

[AltarOfSacrifice]

Well, Kallig and Tulak Hord did live about 3000 years before the story, right? So it is possible he could have been one of the descendants of the dark Jedi exiles, but I think he was just red Sith species I don't think he would have been born into a wealthy and privileged noble family if he was not human or "pureblood" red Sith. (Also remember that all "purebloods" are really just a mix of human and the red Sith species that was conquered by Ajunta Pall and the other dark Jedi) The few other races that lived in the Empire at the time were almost always slaves, and it's clear Kallig wasn not a slave, his descendants were enslaved only because the family fell out of favor in Sith society.

 

Tulak Hord ruled the Empire roughly around 5400 BBY, so about 1800 years before the game, and Kallig was a contemporary of Hord's.

[DarthDymond]

Tulak Hord ruled the Empire roughly around 5400 BBY, so about 1800 years before the game, and Kallig was a contemporary of Hord's.

I don't remember Hord ever being explicitly placed in the timeline, what source did you get the 5400 BBY date from?

[galaxiesbeyond]

I don't remember Hord ever being explicitly placed in the timeline, what source did you get the 5400 BBY date from?

 

Maybe it's from Khem Val mentioning how long he'd been in stasis...as doesn't he say how long it's been in a conversation? Then that would make Tulak Hord and Kallig's time that many years before this story. But I'm not sure, as it's been a while since I've played through early stages of inquisitor story.

[Diviciacus]

The closest info I can find for Tulak Hord's timeline is "before 5600 BBY" - stated on Wookieepedia, evidenced with a comment from Khem Val saying he's more than two millenia old (in the time of TOR).

 

But that doesn't make sense, since Tulak Hord sealed Khem Val within Naga Sadow's tomb - and he was a major player in the Great Hyperspace War, which was some 600 years later. I think the commentary from Khem Val might be better interpreted as that's simply how old he is, NOT that he had been in the service of Tulak Hord for that time.

 

Vitiate has been Emperor for ~1,000 years in TOR, so 4,600 BBY, but he must have been emperor before that, or certainly a very powerful Sith since he's active in the years immediately proceeding the Great Hyperspace War. The Holocron the inquisitor recovers from the Tomb of Marka Ragnos has been there a thousand years also (according to Lord Zash) - but let's assume an error margin of approximately a century in either direction for any period of history mentioned by Sith (since they don't seem to keep the best records). So who put the Holocron there, given that Ragnos was the immediate predecessor of Naga Sadow? Did Tulak Hord hide things in tombs other than Sadow's? Did a writer drop the ball in putting Khem Val in a tomb that wouldn't be built for a millenium and a half? Should Khem Val have been interred in Ajunta Pall's tomb instead? Ajunta Pall, after all, was one of the original exiled dark Jedi, so he would be older than Tulak Hord (and thus his tomb would exist in Hord's time).

 

However, Kallig is buried in the Dark Temple on Dromund Kaas - built by Vitiate. Vash does say that Kallig's chamber is the deepest part of the temple. Perhaps Vitiate built the Dark Temple by expanding the original tomb of Kallig? According to Wookieepedia, Dromund Kaas was discovered before 6,900 BBY so that gives us an absolute terminus post quem of Kallig/Hord's time, and the construction of the Dark Temple early in the resettlement of the Dromund system (approximately 4,950-4,800 BBY) gives us a terminus ante quem. Unfortunately, that's a big, 2,000 year window for the events of Tulak Hord's life to have happened.

 

Everything is a mess with regards to Sith history. So the question really should be how accurate are Republic records, considering they lose the locations of entire systems all the time?

 

I think the best we can say is that the sequence of events around the Great Hyperspace War is accurate, since the Republic was there. That is: Marka Ragnos dies > Naga Sadow takes Ludo Kressh as apprentice > Great Hyperspace War > Naga Sadow exiles himself to Yavin 4's moon (GO AWAY, YAVIN 4 HAS TO BE THE PLANET SINCE THE SYSTEM IS YAVIN) > Vitiate somehow exerts control of the Imperial Remnants as a whole > Dromund system is rediscovered > Vitiate becomes Emperor.

 

Perhaps... did the Sith build Naga Sadow's tomb AROUND Khem Val? Is that perhaps what happened, rather than being buried in the tomb, and Overseer Harkun just doesn't know his history that well?

 

But then, how do you reconcile Kreia/Darth Traya's comment that Tulak Hord had a lightsaber? Was she an idiot? I doubt that somehow, given the events of KOTOR 2. But, during the Great Hyperspace War protosabers (ie. attached to an external powerpack) were still in use. Did the Sith invent them independently from the Jedi, but then lose the construction method because of typical Sith infighting?