Beniboybling Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 (edited) I wouldn't really consider Talzin unbeatable, honestly.Unbeatable was hyperbole, what she is is extremely difficult to kill, and could easily be argued as such. I can only see nothing short of the strongest Force users available e.g. Vader, Krayt, Revan etc. standing a chance of beating her and only with considerable support, and her ability to dematerialise makes her invulnerable to being corned, blown up etc. The only way to defeat her would to achieve a massive advantage which would be a lot of work for the opponent. And when you consider that all Talzin needs to do to win is kill the opposing leader, then you can understand the significance of 1 v 1 engagements and how the argument "Talzin soloes" could easily be made with a little creativity. Edited August 11, 2015 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 Unbeatable was hyperbole, what she is is extremely difficult to kill, and could easily be argued as such. I can only see nothing short of the strongest Force users available e.g. Vader, Krayt, Revan etc. standing a chance of beating her and only with considerable support, and her ability to dematerialise makes her invulnerable to being corned, blown up etc. The only way to defeat her would to achieve a massive advantage which would be a lot of work for the opponent. And when you consider that all Talzin needs to do to win is kill the opposing leader, then you can understand the significance of 1 v 1 engagements and how the argument "Talzin soloes" could easily be made with a little creativity. @Underlined: Were this true, she would not have been finally defeated. I think there is a limit to her capabilities. One need only put her into the proper circumstances in order to defeat her. There's also the issue of her limited abilities on other worlds. She'd only be so difficult to defeat on Dathomir, in my opinion. And, again, the issue of her limited range of skills comes into play. She isn't as useful as other leaders might be. She's a great powerhouse, sure, but her range outside of that is limited to manipulations that probably wouldn't even apply in a Kaggath. I'm just saying that people can probably work with it. I'll let you and Sel sort things out from here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 @Underlined: Were this true, she would not have been finally defeated. I think there is a limit to her capabilities. One need only put her into the proper circumstances in order to defeat her. There's also the issue of her limited abilities on other worlds. She'd only be so difficult to defeat on Dathomir, in my opinion. And, again, the issue of her limited range of skills comes into play. She isn't as useful as other leaders might be. She's a great powerhouse, sure, but her range outside of that is limited to manipulations that probably wouldn't even apply in a Kaggath. I'm just saying that people can probably work with it. I'll let you and Sel sort things out from here. I can't reply much on a phone, but this is entirely my point. You say Revan can only take over fleets on Malachor so it doesn't matter, but suddenly Talzin's Dathomir-Only feats like teleportation etc are horrendously overpowered and requires a ban? Not to mention if she's in an ally spot, like I've argued 1000 times should be the case anyway, it doesn't matter if she can't be killed. If the HoS was lured off Dathomir she could not protect them as much as normal. Side note: There was nothing special about Malachor when Revan corrupted a fleet. He did it before the MSG was activated, it was a regular Dark Side Nexus like korriban. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted August 12, 2015 Author Share Posted August 12, 2015 Selenial is correct, Malachor V was just another Korriban, Yavin IV and Ziost at the time, then he tore the energies of the Dark Side from that nexus and corrupted all the Jedi in the space battle on the spot. Revan's greatest feat is fighting a coalition force of the greatest Imperial and Republic heroes in the galaxy at the Temple of Sacrifice before teleporting away only to face (potentially) the Hero of Tython, Lord Scourge, Darth Marr, Lana Beniko, Shae Viszla, Theron Shan, the Wookiee, Republic/Imperial SpecOps all amped by Satele Shan's battle meditation, it is even indicated that without the BM Revan would have WON that fight. Just for the record, he was fully capable of destroying the coalition forces combined militaries on the ground as well, his plan b. He has to be banned, all one need do is make a DS faction like mine, put Revan on-top, throw in four DS nexi and Bastila's BM amp... /Kaggath Tournament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 So Rayla guessed my faction... Dangnabit, I really wanted to roll with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 (edited) @Underlined: Were this true, she would not have been finally defeated. I think there is a limit to her capabilities. One need only put her into the proper circumstances in order to defeat her. There's also the issue of her limited abilities on other worlds. She'd only be so difficult to defeat on Dathomir, in my opinion. And, again, the issue of her limited range of skills comes into play. She isn't as useful as other leaders might be. She's a great powerhouse, sure, but her range outside of that is limited to manipulations that probably wouldn't even apply in a Kaggath. I'm just saying that people can probably work with it. I'll let you and Sel sort things out from here. Um yeah by Darth Sidious, Count Dooku, General Grievous and an army of battle droids of which Sidious made the point would be of no use. And Talzin was weakened, good luck replicating that in a Kaggath. Concerning luring her to other worlds, for certain, but only places weak in the Living Force appear to effect her powers and the chances of her being lured onto a space station or a city world seem pretty slim. She can operate just fine on most planets. Whereas it would be easy push for a battle on Dathomir, where there would be no chance of victory. And what Selenial is saying is unfortunately, baseless, there is no evidence to suggest Talzin's abilities are limited off Dathomir, and that she'd be incapable of say teleportation or toe-to-toe with Sidious strength. But again if your argument is "she's not unbeatable" and people can "probably work with it" then we have no reason to ban Caedus, Plagueis and others. And if the argument is "she's not well rounded" then we've no reason to ban Thrawn. There is talk of consistency but this is a double standard, you can't justify her use and ban the others, it's pure favouritism. Though what baffles me is that the reason Talzin is being banned is because Sel raised it as an issue in the first place, I'm confused as to why she's decided to change her mind despite agreeing to it before. P.S. That's a good point Lady, I would probably ban SOR Revan as his powers are unquantifiable off-nexus anyway. As for Malachor in terms of corruptive power other world really don't compare, and again the situation was circumstantial. EDIT: We're also downplaying her leadership abilities, we forget she was smart enough to outmanoeuvre Count Dooku, and cunning enough to protect her clan from external threats, partly through her ability to predict the future. Edited August 12, 2015 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 Again, can't make a large post. However, I originally said she should be banned if you're only letting her be a head of state. I still do not agree with the decision that she cannot be an ally or second in command, but that no longer matters. I changed my mind because it was brought to my attention that leaders are banned from simply hiding and doing nothing, so once Talzin's faction goes, she does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowMudkip Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 I really don't care about banning Talzin or not, however, it would not make sense to not ban Revan or Vader if we ban Talzin. Talzin's only real specialty is her witchcraft (which takes immense preparation) and her force ability. Her overall tactics ability, lightsaber ability, and other abilities such as charisma/charm or the ability to inspire loyalty are all lower than Revan or Vader's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 (edited) Well this tournament is supposed to be fun first and foremost, I have serious concerns but if folks wanted it badly I could allow it. I think I shall be banning IG-88 however. Edited August 14, 2015 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Well this tournament is supposed to be fun first and foremost, I have serious concerns but if folks wanted it badly I could allow it. I think I shall be banning IG-88 however. Which is why I want Talzin Not because she's powerful (I mean, I wanted to use her before the last tournament and that was long before she got to TCW Sidious/Caedus level) but because she's one of my favourite characters, the Nightsisters rock, and we need some serious respect for Death Watch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted September 5, 2015 Author Share Posted September 5, 2015 Hm.. Leadership: Head-of-State: Darth Vader Second-in-Command: Inquisitor Jerec Ally: Director Isard Ally: Cipher Nine ------------ Support: Supplier: Kuat Drive Yards Intelligence: Inquisitorious ------------ Military: Army: Minor Force: Imperial Shadow Guards Minor Force: Shadow Stormtrooper Minor Force: Clone Commandos Light Vehicle: HK-51 Assassin Droid Light Vehicle: Dark Trooper Phase III Heavy Vehicle: --------------- Navy: Fighter: TIE D/Defender Bomber: Missile Boat Elite: Shadow Droid Light Ship: Modular Taskforce Cruiser Light Ship: Imperial-Class Frigate Capital Ship: Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer Flagship: Megador Star Dreadnought ---------------- Empire: Capital: Byss Fortress World: Prakith Fortress World: Kuat Organization World: Imperial Center Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raandomname Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 So when does the next Kaggath start? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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