What would of happened if CIS won the war instead of republic

[hunterareop]

Would order 66 still happen idk very confused what would happen

[DarthDymond]

Would order 66 still happen idk very confused what would happen

With the Jedi fighting on the front lines, if the CIS won the war then they would have wiped out the Jedi in the process, so there would be no need to enact Order 66 (although Palpatine still might have done so, just to be sure there weren't any Jedi survivors).

 

Then at the end of the war, the 'Separatist Council' would have gone about establishing their new government to rule over the Galaxy they had just conquered - and since the Separatist Leaders all answered to Darth Sidious, it's a pretty safe bet that Sidious would have things set in motion so that he would be installed as supreme ruler of that new government.

 

Instead of Emperor Palpatine with his Moffs and Stormtrooper legions enforcing the New Order, there would instead be Emperor Sidious with his Corporate Governors and Droid legions enforcing the New Order. The whole war was orchestrated from the start in such a way that whatever happened, Palpatine would end up on top and the Jedi would be wiped out.

Edited April 24, 2015 by DarthDymond

[Rykko]

The end of the war is very carefully planned so that whatever happens Sidious becomes ruler of the galaxy.

 

If Dooku defeats Anakin during their duel over Coruscant the CIS would be provided with the information required to win.

 

He brings the two of them together in order to decide the outcome of the war.

 

His kidnap is faked in that he gives Grievous the Nexus hyperspace routes needed to get a fleet to Coruscant in one piece.

 

Those routes were obtained during the Republic rescue mission to the Citadel shown during that arc of TCW.

 

Palpatine still doesn't count on plummeting towards Coruscant in a flaming ship of course but then he didn't plan for Amidala returning to Naboo either. He just adapts as he goes along.

[Ghisallo]

I think Sidious always had it set up for the CIS to lose... Here is why...

 

First he manipulates events and have people wacked so his man is the head of the Trade Federation. Then convinces Valorum to have taxes reinstated in the Outer Rim where the Trade Federation and other parties do business. Over a hundred years before these taxes were abolished in the hopes that it would improve relations between the Core Worlds and the Outer Rim.

 

Almost immediately after he has the taxes reinstated he has the Clone Army ordered. If he just wanted a Govt to take over and then be in charge of that he could have just had the CIS form and attack. With no organized Military the Republic, Jedi or not would have been steam rolled.

 

Then we look at additional events. He arranges for the seige of Naboo so that Valorum would look weak in order to have the way cleared for his ascent to the Chancellorship. Next when the war officially is declared and the Clone Troops deployed he asks the Jedi to take up the ranks they had given up 1000 years before in the Ruusan reformation, namely that of General.

 

He LETS himself get captured because he KNOWS that Anakin is now strong enough to beat Dooku, there was no "whoever wins". Dooku would never have been strong enough to kill Sidious before he died of old age and that is what is required of the next Dark Lord...he must kill his Master to Claim the title. Maul may have been but Maul was gone. He met Anakin and immediately knew that he was the result of Plagueis' experiments, the midi-chlorians conceiving the Chosen One. That Anakin would have had the power (had he not been borged out later) to be a true apprentice if turned. So he turns Dooku and strings him along until it is time to cast him aside and have Anakin take Dooku's place as Lord Vader.

 

He knows the Grand Army of the Republic and it's specifically engineered for war Clones will be able to defeat the CIS, especially with Jedi leading them. He knows those Clones will then be in a position to kill their commanders. The only real wild card in his plans was " when will I be able to turn Anakin to the dark side.".

 

He knew it would happen. He sensed the anger, fear and rage in the kid. The only thing that made the Jedi not see it fully was the mantle of "The Chosen One" but even Yoda suspected it was an issue, as did Mace. When he could turn Anakin was basically the "this is when I give Order 66" because with Anakin in his pocket he can make the "Jedi Revolt" look legitimate.

 

His plan from the beginning was so that in the Senate he would see, as Padme said, "...this is how liberty dies. To the sound of thunderous applause."

 

He created the CIS simply to be an existential threat that would allow people to overlook the suspicious fact that a Clone Army was coincidentally ordered by a coincidentally dead Jedi. To justify his "reluctant" acceptance of the appointment to the Chancellorship and then the "reluctant" acceptance of Emergency powers. To set it up so that the Jedi Order could literally be shot in the back in many circumstances and then have the people buy the fact that the Jedi were trying to over throw the Republic. Ultimately to be able to say "I have brought you victory and security."

 

The CIS was always meant to be defeated. The machinations necessary to bring all these things together to accomplish the above goals, laid out over more than a decade imo is what makes him dangerous, more so than his mastery of the force tbh.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Ghisallo

[hunterareop]

ty all very helpful

[Galdos]

Snip

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You make some good points. I do have to disagree with you on it though. I dont think the CIS was designed to lose. I think Palpatine wanted to throw the two sides against each other and see which side was actually stronger. If the people of the Republic showed they could defeat the CIS then he would transform the Republic to an Empire. If the CIS showed themselves to be stronger he would let Dooku transform the CIS into an Empire.

 

It was a contest of the people of the Republic vs the people and the droids of the CIS. The Republic won, not because they were meant to, but because they had 2 aces. The army of Clone troopers which came into play earlier then they were suppose to, and how accomplished the Jedi were as Generals.

 

I based that off how the novelizations of books like Revenge of the Sith and Labrinth of Evil describe Palpatine.

 

That is just my personal take on Palpatine's plan. That he was legit interested in seeing who would prevail and he would take the stronger.

[Ghisallo]

You make some good points. I do have to disagree with you on it though. I dont think the CIS was designed to lose. I think Palpatine wanted to throw the two sides against each other and see which side was actually stronger. If the people of the Republic showed they could defeat the CIS then he would transform the Republic to an Empire. If the CIS showed themselves to be stronger he would let Dooku transform the CIS into an Empire.

 

It was a contest of the people of the Republic vs the people and the droids of the CIS. The Republic won, not because they were meant to, but because they had 2 aces. The army of Clone troopers which came into play earlier then they were suppose to, and how accomplished the Jedi were as Generals.

 

I based that off how the novelizations of books like Revenge of the Sith and Labrinth of Evil describe Palpatine.

 

That is just my personal take on Palpatine's plan. That he was legit interested in seeing who would prevail and he would take the stronger.

 

I am also basing much of what I said on EU sources, stuff from TCW, some of the books etc. It really seems that the CIS was always intended to be "the fall guys." I think part of your issue is that the Clone Troopers didn't come in too early. If you read Jedi v Sith you see Obi-Wan saying how he was actually expected to arrive at that time, at the Clone Banks. He came to believe that the dart he used that tipped him off to Kamino in the first place was planted with the specific intent to go there at that time. Also some of Sidious' annotations in the Jedi Way show that Sidious was manipulating the Order itself for years.

 

This is one of the problems with the EU and another reason. I am glad to see it sidelined tbh. Puzzle pieces for stuff like this are spread across so many sources. I only got Jedi v Sith anf the Jedi Way a month or two ago. If I did not have those two works I would likely be saying both are equally possible. However when I include these two sources and a couple others... This is how I came to my new idea.

[DarthDymond]

I think the Republic winning was definitely "Plan A", and was Palpatine's ideal outcome. But there is no way to fully predict every development of a Galaxy-wide war, so Palaptine made sure that if things went sideways and the CIS wound up winning the war, he would still be on top - a contingency plan, basically.

 

It's a textbook Xanatos Gambit.

Edited April 24, 2015 by DarthDymond

[hunterareop]

I think the Republic winning was definitely "Plan A", and was Palpatine's ideal outcome. But there is no way to fully predict every development of a Galaxy-wide war, so Palaptine made sure that if things went sideways and the CIS wound up winning the war, he would still be on top - a contingency plan, basically.

 

It's a textbook Xanatos Gambit.

what was plan b

[Ghisallo]

I think the Republic winning was definitely "Plan A", and was Palpatine's ideal outcome. But there is no way to fully predict every development of a Galaxy-wide war, so Palaptine made sure that if things went sideways and the CIS wound up winning the war, he would still be on top - a contingency plan, basically.

 

It's a textbook Xanatos Gambit.

 

The thing is though when you are essentially in charge of the CIS you can make it fail. This is exactly what Sidious was. He was the power " behind the throne" of the CIS. He even had the previous head of the Trade Federation assassinated pre Episode I so his puppet would be in charge.

 

Next the CIS was not about being in charge of all of the Republic. They basically wanted to go back to their "leave us alone to do our thing" status they enjoyed before Sidious maneuvered the Senate into reinstating taxation. The whole thing with blockading Naboo was sold to the Trade Federation as a bargaining chip...basically holding a planet hostage, it was not about conquest. The real aim though was to get himself appointed Chancellor. In order to "have it all" the Republic had to win. Look at the CIS like the South in the Civil War instead of the Republicans in the French Revolution. The CIS, like the South, had no interest in ruling the entire Republic, they just wanted to secede. The Republicans in the French Revolution however wanted it all.

 

To this aim let us look at what he did in the end. He arranges for the leaders of the CIS to all gather in one place to "meet his representative" in person. Sidious sends Anakin and Anakin slaughters them. Anakin then gives the order for the CIS to end hostilities. There was no way the CIS was ever going to win the fight in a thousand years.

 

This imo makes Sidious even more impressive. It was not a matter if him instigating a conflict that regardless of who wins he wins. It is creating what amounts to be a galactic scale false flag operation, where in he creates a threat to the entire Republic that he can hhave defeated, basically at will.

[midianlord]

Would have.

 

Jesus, you people...

[DarthDymond]

The thing is though when you are essentially in charge of the CIS you can make it fail. This is exactly what Sidious was. He was the power " behind the throne" of the CIS. He even had the previous head of the Trade Federation assassinated pre Episode I so his puppet would be in charge.[...]

 

To this aim let us look at what he did in the end. He arranges for the leaders of the CIS to all gather in one place to "meet his representative" in person. Sidious sends Anakin and Anakin slaughters them. Anakin then gives the order for the CIS to end hostilities. There was no way the CIS was ever going to win the fight in a thousand years.

[/Quote]

Thing is, Sidious needed the Clone Wars to drag on for years, in order to solidify his power in the Republic and get it 'primed' for the conversion into the Empire. A galaxy-wide war fought over several years had literally trillions of moving parts. I have no doubt he was constantly making moves to keep the conflict going - when the Republic gained too much of an upper hand, Palpatine would orchestrate a move that set them back, when the CIS gained too much ground, Sidious left an opening for the Republic to capitalize on, etc.

 

But while his Plan A was to have the Republic win, at the end of all those moves and counter-moves he orchestrated, with that many variables the possibility certainly existed (and was foreseeable at the outset) that at the end of this years-long process,and these thousands of battles, things would have developed such that the CIS was too far on top to make a Republic victory feasible. Palpatine was deliberately working against such an outcome from his positions on both sides, but he couldn't just flip the 'kill switch' on the CIS any time he wanted, or the Republic might not have been where he needed it to be to become an Empire.

 

Anyone cunning and smart enough to orchestrate all the things necessary to get the Clone Wars going and the Republic to convert to an Empire, was certainly smart enough to have contingencies on top of contingencies in place. (Heck, we know he did because his plan to have the Trade Federation take control of Naboo failed, but he was still able to form the CIS and start the war.)

 

Next the CIS was not about being in charge of all of the Republic. They basically wanted to go back to their "leave us alone to do our thing" status they enjoyed before Sidious maneuvered the Senate into reinstating taxation. The whole thing with blockading Naboo was sold to the Trade Federation as a bargaining chip...basically holding a planet hostage, it was not about conquest. The real aim though was to get himself appointed Chancellor. In order to "have it all" the Republic had to win. Look at the CIS like the South in the Civil War instead of the Republicans in the French Revolution. The CIS, like the South, had no interest in ruling the entire Republic, they just wanted to secede. The Republicans in the French Revolution however wanted it all.

Sidious got a group of corporations to secede from the largest, most powerful government in the galaxy, and then go to war with it. If the CIS had the upper hand, I have no doubt he'd be able to play on their greed and ambition to get them to 'go all the way' and take complete control.

 

Sure the average citizen supporters of the CIS might balk at pressing things, but this is the man who got the Republic to surrender their liberty 'to thunderous applause' - he could certainly have the ruling council spin things with the common folk ("We need to make sure the Republic is beaten so that we don't have to fight this war again in a few years" "There are billions of Republic citizens yearning for freedom from the Republic yoke, we have a duty to liberate them" etc.). Add to that the droid armies being perfectly loyal to whatever course he'd set them on, and those at the top of the CIS hierarchy being there specifically because they were corruptible, and you have a recipe for turning a war of secession into a galaxy-wide revolution / conquest.

 

Again, this guy got the Republic to turn into a totalitarian Empire, getting the CIS to dance to his tune was certainly a viable option. He was already at the head of both governments, it would be outright baffling if he didn't have a contingency plan in place to come out on top whichever way the war went.

This imo makes Sidious even more impressive. It was not a matter if him instigating a conflict that regardless of who wins he wins. It is creating what amounts to be a galactic scale false flag operation, where in he creates a threat to the entire Republic that he can have defeated, basically at will.

Even with the contingency in place, what you just described is still exactly what he did - it's just that this masterful false-flag operation was merely Plan A. On top of that, he also maneuvered himself into a position where he'd still have control of the galaxy even if that initial plan was thwarted, rather than having success hinge on the outcome of the war. He set things up so that he had effectively won the game before it even started.

Edited April 29, 2015 by DarthDymond

[Ghisallo]

Yes he needed the war to go on for years. What I think you miss is that he also needed to end the war virtually on command. He knew the Jedi would figure out what was going on eventually. So he needed to be able to end the war ASAP because in having order 66 executed he essentially, for a time, decapitated his own armies chain of command.

 

In the end though don't take my word for it, take all of the EU sources that say just this. Yes the idea you have would be a cool and interesting idea and I prefer it tbh... but the numerous EU sources state that the CIS was from the beginning set up to fail. The various sources even go so far as to say the battles that the CIS, once the war began in earnest, won the battles that Sidious let them win.

 

Now I find this level of manipulation to be kinda over the top but is what the EU says on the matter.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Ghisallo

[raandomname]

If the CIS had won we basically would have had completelly unregulated ultra capitalism dictated solely by the conglomerate of Separatist companies, aka extremelly bad things for everybody who isnt a CIS leader.

[Balnazaar]

Don't forget that the CIS was technically far more numerous. As soon as droids, fighters and vehicles with droid brains or programming centers were finished, so were their programs, they didn't need training, or rarely did.

 

As the Tactical Droid poitns out in the Rebels episode "The Last Battle of the Clone Wars", the CIS vastly outnumbered the Republic and the Clone Army. (info from The Clone Wars, Legends Canon, Disney/Lucas Canon, Rebels).

 

So had it turned out a bit differently, the victors could have been the CIS with ease. As for the droid army in overall, after the Battle of Naboo, 10 years before the Clone Wars broke out, the Droid Control Computer used by the Trade Federation was rapidly phased out to allow the droids to 'fend for themselves' - they were made slightly more efficient and mostly self-sufficient, removing the reliance of a central control system.

 

A few programs and expanded hardware were added to allow the droids to 'evolve' on their own, but due to space limitations for memory and learning, they mostly didn't get very far. Their improvements or the opposite could be anything from better humor, better shooting/aiming, more common sense, improved tactical 'thinking', almost anything that didn't require the Force. They could pretty much think, just not on the same level as sentients, but most droids, primarily B1s, could be seen as sentient, or semi-sentient. Just a bit or VERY stupid.

 

But as the canon was laid out, it was focused on the Republic coming out on top with - for one, Anakin getting strong enough and turning. Had he died, Palpatine would either have extended the war further, or had the CIS win. It is a debate we can have going for.... well, as long as Star Wars is remembered. Or until an alternate outcome is given to use in a cinematic or tv series style.