Rattataki, Zabrak and Dathomirians, Oh my!

[CloudCastle]

I'm watching Clone Wars for the first time. I just got to the Episode 'Monster" where Savage Opress was created. I had heard that there was some weird retconning that had gone on with Rattataki, and now I think I see why. I am totally confused.

 

I'm supposed to be believe that Ventress, who pretty much looks exactly like a Rattataki, complete with the same tattooing patterns, is actually a Zabrak/human hybrid? Where is the pale white skin and bald head coming from? Why do the male Dathomirians look so dramatically different, basically just like regular Zabrak?

 

Are we supposed to believe that the dramatic similarities in appearance between the Rattatki and the Nightsisters is just cosmic coincidence?

 

And lastly, were the Rattataki in this game created before that episode of "Monster" aired? Who came up with the species Rattataki in the first place?

 

P.S. I'd love some info, but please, don't give me any major spoilers for the Clone Wars storyline, ok? I'm really enjoying discovering it for the first time.

[Kyrrant]

.........pretty much, yeah, you're supposed to say its just a weird coincidence.

 

The funny thing is, the first Rattataki in Star Wars WAS Asasj Ventriss. Except now she's not. She just looks exactly like one. And has no hair despite being the product of two species with hair. And zero species that are commonly so pale.

 

Sigh.

[Quething]

Yeah, basically.

 

Ventress was created for the Clone Wars animated series(es). That was forever and a day ago, and so the EU, doing what the EU does best, filled in all the details they didn't have for her. They gave her a species, and they gave that species a homeworld and a culture and etc etc, over the course of various books and comics.

 

Then, some years later, George Lucas did what George Lucas does, which is to say get really really annoyed that anyone created something in HIS universe that's as popular as HIS ideas, and declared all that stuff Wrong, and gave a different species and origin to Ventress. And to Maul, while he was at it, because the entirely EU Zabraks were also annoyingly well-liked.

 

Just wait till you get to the fake Chiss on Hoth.

[rashencyberspeed]

.........pretty much, yeah, you're supposed to say its just a weird coincidence.

 

The funny thing is, the first Rattataki in Star Wars WAS Asasj Ventriss. Except now she's not. She just looks exactly like one. And has no hair despite being the product of two species with hair. And zero species that are commonly so pale.

 

Sigh.

 

Minor spoilers for later episodes. Don't read on if you don't wanna see.

 

Assaj isn't the only case of this. The very first Zabrak in Star Wars was Darth Maul. And he has also since been retconned into being a Dathomiran!

[DAWUSS]

Yeah, basically.

 

Ventress was created for the Clone Wars animated series(es). That was forever and a day ago, and so the EU, doing what the EU does best, filled in all the details they didn't have for her. They gave her a species, and they gave that species a homeworld and a culture and etc etc, over the course of various books and comics.

 

Then, some years later, George Lucas did what George Lucas does, which is to say get really really annoyed that anyone created something in HIS universe that's as popular as HIS ideas, and declared all that stuff Wrong, and gave a different species and origin to Ventress. And to Maul, while he was at it, because the entirely EU Zabraks were also annoyingly well-liked.

 

Just wait till you get to the fake Chiss on Hoth.

 

I guess this is something that can be deemed improved due to the Disney EU Purge. Let's face it, that CW CGI series spawned so many retcons (not even the prequels were that bad) that you could toss it out and have better consistency in your headcanon.

[CloudCastle]

So basically, Rattataki, Zabrak and Chiss are all non-canon? What other races are not canon anymore?

[Kyrrant]

So basically, Rattataki, Zabrak and Chiss are all non-canon? What other races are not canon anymore?

 

No, no, no. Zabrak, Rattataki and Chiss are all still EU Canon (...for what that's worth these days) races.

 

Its just that Maul and Asasj, the first Zabrak and Rattataki characters, aren't those anymore.

 

*rolls eyes*

[Kilikaa]

No, no, no. Zabrak, Rattataki and Chiss are all still EU Canon (...for what that's worth these days) races.

 

Its just that Maul and Asasj, the first Zabrak and Rattataki characters, aren't those anymore.

 

*rolls eyes*

 

Zabrak are pure canon. They are mentioned in TCW as is the planet Iridonia, making it canon. Dathomir is not the Zabrak homeworld, just a planet where some live.

[Yomond]

This might be completely wrong but I seem to remember a making of or something where they explained that they where going to kill Ventress off because she was violating the rule of two.

 

But she was Lucas’s daughter’s favorite character so Lucas gave her the character and let her write what ever she wanted the whole Savage Opress arc was her canonized fan fic basically.

 

again im not sure this is true.

[Ghisallo]

Yeah, basically.

 

 

Just wait till you get to the fake Chiss on Hoth.

 

Of what do you speak?

[Ghisallo]

I guess this is something that can be deemed improved due to the Disney EU Purge. Let's face it, that CW CGI series spawned so many retcons (not even the prequels were that bad) that you could toss it out and have better consistency in your headcanon.

 

And this is why Disney got rid of the EU and did the Canon reboot last year. In this was there is consistency for the new stuff that will be created under their watch.

[Kyrrant]

And this is why Disney got rid of the EU and did the Canon reboot last year. In this was there is consistency for the new stuff that will be created under their watch.

 

...actually, uh, the CGI Clone Wars series is still canon. The new canon's just that, the movies and the Rebels series.

 

Yeah.

 

So unfair...

[DarthDymond]

In the Legends Continuity (which includes The Clone Wars CGI Cartoon, SWTOR and scores of other appearances of Dathomir and the Nightsisters) Ventress is a Dathomiri who just happens to look like a Rattataki after she shaved her head (presumably to allow her to 'fit in' with her adopted world of the Rattataki), and the Nightsisters enslaved a group of Zabrak, making them their 'Nightbrothers', which Maul and Savage were born into. Maul and Savage are still members of the Zabrak species, they're just Dathomiri in terms of their 'nationality' so to speak.

 

But in the New Canon, is there even such a species as the Rattataki? Without Ventress, I don't know that there has ever been one in any of the Canon sources.

[CloudCastle]

In the Legends Continuity (which includes The Clone Wars CGI Cartoon, SWTOR and scores of other appearances of Dathomir and the Nightsisters) Ventress is a Dathomiri who just happens to look like a Rattataki after she shaved her head (presumably to allow her to 'fit in' with her adopted world of the Rattataki), and the Nightsisters enslaved a group of Zabrak, making them their 'Nightbrothers', which Maul and Savage were born into. Maul and Savage are still members of the Zabrak species, they're just Dathomiri in terms of their 'nationality' so to speak.

 

But in the New Canon, is there even such a species as the Rattataki? Without Ventress, I don't know that there has ever been one in any of the Canon sources.

 

But but but...one of the episodes showed a baby Ventress, and then a small child Ventress, and she was bald in all them! Argh.

 

So "officially" Rattataki don't exist.

 

As far as canon goes, I thought that the only things left that were "true" canon now and not "legends" was Clone Wars, Rebels, and the 6 movies.

[DarthDymond]

But but but...one of the episodes showed a baby Ventress, and then a small child Ventress, and she was bald in all them! Argh.

 

So "officially" Rattataki don't exist.

 

As far as canon goes, I thought that the only things left that were "true" canon now and not "legends" was Clone Wars, Rebels, and the 6 movies.

Well, I've seen a lot of bald babies, and I think the scenes of small-child Ventress did show her with hair (at least in the Clone Wars).

 

And yeah, New Canon = movies, Clone Wars, and Rebels, but it also includes the novels (and comics) that have started coming out since the Canon announcement - including New Dawn, Tarkin, and Heir to the Jedi at least. I doubt any of those include 'Rattataki' though, so the point stands that they may not exist in that continuity. Once Dark Disciple, which has Ventress as a main character, comes out this summer, maybe we'll have a bit more to go on.

[Kilikaa]

Well, I've seen a lot of bald babies, and I think the scenes of small-child Ventress did show her with hair (at least in the Clone Wars).

 

And yeah, New Canon = movies, Clone Wars, and Rebels, but it also includes the novels (and comics) that have started coming out since the Canon announcement - including New Dawn, Tarkin, and Heir to the Jedi at least. I doubt any of those include 'Rattataki' though, so the point stands that they may not exist in that continuity. Once Dark Disciple, which has Ventress as a main character, comes out this summer, maybe we'll have a bit more to go on.

 

I may be wrong, but I am pretty sure TCW did show a glimpse of Ventress' past including a teenage Ventress watching her Jedi Master die. The planet this took place on was Rattatak, where the Jedi was stranded. Now I have t watch the show again to be sure.

[Ghisallo]

...actually, uh, the CGI Clone Wars series is still canon. The new canon's just that, the movies and the Rebels series.

 

Yeah.

 

So unfair...

 

Yes it is BUT all the stuff that told us who was what race and some of the races are gone... thus there is no conflict on what species Ventress is etc. This is what I was referring to.

 

As far as I know the Rattataki are never mentioned in the new canon...thus removing EU influence means yes you can believe she is a cross breed and not a rattataki.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Kyrrant]

Yes it is BUT all the stuff that told us who was what race and some of the races are gone... thus there is no conflict on what species Ventress is etc. This is what I was referring to.

 

As far as I know the Rattataki are never mentioned in the new canon...thus removing EU influence means yes you can believe she is a cross breed and not a rattataki.

 

With the new continuity, I'm more or less assuming that the physical facts of the galaxy from pre-VI stuff are still true unless explicitly repudiated in new material. Revan existed, Rattataki and Chiss are running around, Manaan's still around, assuming it wasn't destroyed via orbital bombardment because those crazy fish people deserve it...

 

Its not technically canon, sure. But we've been playing fast and loose with the official canon for like thirty years now. Rattataki are a defined race in SWTOR, and thus they exist. Period.

 

As for Asasj? I... just kinda roll my eyes and place it in the same box as Midichlorians and Moraband: Things to find hand-waves and alternate explanations for if needed, and to be outright ignored whenever possible.

[Quething]

Of what do you speak?

 

Sorry, it wasn't Hoth, it was Pantora, or possibly Orto Plutonia. Anyway there's an episode where a bunch of Talz are trying to defend their land from a Republic member species who don't consider them legit claimants on account of being big shaggy ice-wookiees. The Jedi get involved on the side of the Pantorans, but end up negotiating a peace between them and the Talz.

 

Anyway, the Pantorans are a blue-skinned near-Human species who can survive bitter cold. Basically they're Chiss with yellow paint on their faces. Why did we need another species exactly like the Chiss, when we already have them? Well, George Lucas has said he doesn't pay any attention to anything outside his own G-canon stuff, except to look up names to make sure they haven't been used. So maybe it was sheer coincidence.

[Ghisallo]

With the new continuity, I'm more or less assuming that the physical facts of the galaxy from pre-VI stuff are still true unless explicitly repudiated in new material. Revan existed, Rattataki and Chiss are running around, Manaan's still around, assuming it wasn't destroyed via orbital bombardment because those crazy fish people deserve it...

 

Its not technically canon, sure. But we've been playing fast and loose with the official canon for like thirty years now. Rattataki are a defined race in SWTOR, and thus they exist. Period.

 

As for Asasj? I... just kinda roll my eyes and place it in the same box as Midichlorians and Moraband: Things to find hand-waves and alternate explanations for if needed, and to be outright ignored whenever possible.

 

Your assumption is wrong. Del Ray books even published a release after Dinsey's announcement saying that beyond the movies and 2 cartoons they have no idea if Disney wil chose to retcon any of the books they published into the new canon. In other words Disney has made the EU little more than a place where a new screen writer or novelist can go and poach ideas here and there and if no ones poaches the idea it doesn't exist. Oh I am sorry... not poach... they said that their writers can use it for "inspiration."

 

Rattataki exist in the game sure... but the game is Legends. TCW is Canon so there, until someone actually says it, Rattataki do not exist. Annoying? Yep, but it is what it is.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Ghisallo]

Sorry, it wasn't Hoth, it was Pantora, or possibly Orto Plutonia. Anyway there's an episode where a bunch of Talz are trying to defend their land from a Republic member species who don't consider them legit claimants on account of being big shaggy ice-wookiees. The Jedi get involved on the side of the Pantorans, but end up negotiating a peace between them and the Talz.

 

Anyway, the Pantorans are a blue-skinned near-Human species who can survive bitter cold. Basically they're Chiss with yellow paint on their faces. Why did we need another species exactly like the Chiss, when we already have them? Well, George Lucas has said he doesn't pay any attention to anything outside his own G-canon stuff, except to look up names to make sure they haven't been used. So maybe it was sheer coincidence.

 

Because George basically has NO respect for the EU. He admitted that he never read the EU books and all he cared about were the things he wrote (the screen plays). So if there is a good idea out there he is going to poach it because heaven forbid someone come up with an idea cooler than his. He simply takes it and repackages it and then can sleep at night not thinking "Zahn was a cooler writer than I"

[Kyrrant]

Your assumption is wrong. Del Ray books even published a release after Dinsey's announcement saying that beyond the movies and 2 cartoons they have no idea if Disney wil chose to retcon any of the books they published into the new canon. In other words Disney has made the EU little more than a place where a new screen writer or novelist can go and poach ideas here and there and if no ones poaches the idea it doesn't exist. Oh I am sorry... not poach... they said that their writers can use it for "inspiration."

 

Rattataki exist in the game sure... but the game is Legends. TCW is Canon so there, until someone actually says it, Rattataki do not exist. Annoying? Yep, but it is what it is.

 

Aaaaaand... how is that any different from how things worked before the Legends change?

 

My assumption is a personal one, the way I'll be approaching the lore and story of Star Wars as a whole. Everything after Episode 6 has to be thrown out, because of the direction of the new films. That's just unavoidable.

 

The rest of it? Why not go into things with the richness of the full universe as being there as a default? The new stuff can override it if it really wants, but there's not going to be many chances for it. Something like 3600 years occurred between SWTOR and Episode 7, more than enough time for mass extinctions, Force wackiness or genetic engineering to alter races, planets to be devastated/destroyed/revitalized...

 

Sure, its not official... but my head-canon of Midichlorians isn't official either, and it helps me enjoy the stories better, so where's the harm?

[SaveTheMonkeys]

Aaaaaand... how is that any different from how things worked before the Legends change?

 

My assumption is a personal one, the way I'll be approaching the lore and story of Star Wars as a whole. Everything after Episode 6 has to be thrown out, because of the direction of the new films. That's just unavoidable.

 

The rest of it? Why not go into things with the richness of the full universe as being there as a default? The new stuff can override it if it really wants, but there's not going to be many chances for it. Something like 3600 years occurred between SWTOR and Episode 7, more than enough time for mass extinctions, Force wackiness or genetic engineering to alter races, planets to be devastated/destroyed/revitalized...

 

Sure, its not official... but my head-canon of Midichlorians isn't official either, and it helps me enjoy the stories better, so where's the harm?

 

You make a good point, and it makes me more inclined to read some of the Pre Ep 4 Legends stuff. I've read the new canon novels (except Heir to the Jedi - I tried, but...ugh..) But I think I'll have a look at some Legends stuff, particularly from the authors I know I like.

My head-canon ignores Midichlorians as well (most of Eps 1-3 tbh, although I accept that the events it portrays happened).

Going to load a bunch of trials onto my Kindle now, and find what tickles my fancy.

[Ghisallo]

Aaaaaand... how is that any different from how things worked before the Legends change?

 

My assumption is a personal one, the way I'll be approaching the lore and story of Star Wars as a whole. Everything after Episode 6 has to be thrown out, because of the direction of the new films. That's just unavoidable.

 

The rest of it? Why not go into things with the richness of the full universe as being there as a default? The new stuff can override it if it really wants, but there's not going to be many chances for it. Something like 3600 years occurred between SWTOR and Episode 7, more than enough time for mass extinctions, Force wackiness or genetic engineering to alter races, planets to be devastated/destroyed/revitalized...

 

Sure, its not official... but my head-canon of Midichlorians isn't official either, and it helps me enjoy the stories better, so where's the harm?

 

Well first there is no such thing as "head canon." There is canon, which in the new case will be herded by the Star Wars Story group and their is fan fiction.

 

Second the Star Wars story group has a different purpose than the Holocron (even though Leland Thee is also part of the Story Group.). Previously there really wasn't a "Canon", there was a continuity. I say this because Canon really can't be changed. The old rules however allowed for change. The Movies first and TV shows second could retcon things previously in print media. One of the main purposes of the Holocron was thetoep this stuff straight and keep G, T, C canon etc. in order. If it was a "Canon", as an example, Padme would not have died at the end of episode III. Instead we would have seen a tearful Padme kiss baby Luke on the forehead before Obi-Wan took him to Tatooine and then Padme would have departed with Leia to meet Bail Organa on Alderaan, we would not have midi-chlorians and there would be no such things as Jedi Consulars etc.

 

The story group however does not have a priority system. If a movie that comes out in the future touches on something first seen in print media (published after April of 2014) the movie will have to follow the lead of the earlier published material...there is no more because it is not a movie it can be retconned by a movie.

 

In essence Disney is doing with Star Wars what is being done in the Marvel Movies...they have "master plan" for all of the movies and such. The Story group keeps all of the writers and directors "on task" following that single over arching plot.

Edited April 18, 2015 by Ghisallo

[gblXsw]

I say this because Canon really can't be changed.

 

Says who?