Harbinger : The farce of Team Ranked PvP

[CountHenri]

Now I'm writing this with regard to Harbinger but other servers could be similar.

 

Team Ranked PvP implies you form a team and play against other people within your rating level. That's good and fair and all but what if there is only ONE other team ever queued and they are a high rating team? Well after waiting 15 minutes or so for the matching system to go "stuff it there are only these guys" you get put against them and roflstomped.

 

That is the complete and utter experience of Team Ranked on Harbinger.

 

No disrespect to the guys you always face ~ they are good PvPers who server transfer to a PvP server to get their rating before transferring back (plus they have a clever Guildname). However this situation makes it impossible to break into the Team Ranked scene since one way bloodbaths are not good learning experiences.

 

My PvP skills arent the best but I always try to improve and would like to get a team together but the current situation just makes that impossible.

 

Is there any fix for this? I've thought that maybe applying a handicapping system (where wins/losses are scored according to the rating differential) might work but can the game engine handle that?

 

Bottom line I guess is to get more teams in but given how toxic PvP players are to newcomers thats difficult...

[Jerba]

Is there any fix for this? I've thought that maybe applying a handicapping system (where wins/losses are scored according to the rating differential) might work but can the game engine handle that?

Actually, this is how the Elo rating already works. You lose less points if the other team has a better rating than you, and you lose more points if the other team has a lower rating. Unfortunately, no matter what, you will always lose some points when losing.

 

The solution to this would be to either get more players in queue (e.g. a cross-server queue) or make rewards based on something other than rating so that losing rating is no longer frustrating. We don't really know if anything is in the works but I hope they'll improve it.

 

Also, I agree about the toxicness of most PvP players, that's one of the reasons why new players are immediately discouraged from queueing for PvP again but I don't think that will ever change.

Edited March 29, 2015 by Jerba

[arunav]

A little off-topic, but I would like to point out that you are on likely the most populated server in SWTOR.

 

Many changes toward balance, since the early-game days but especially lately, are made around concerns for PvP.

 

If even on the most populated server in the game barely anyone plays ranked PvP, why significantly alter specs such that they no longer are reasonably viable in PvE for this tiny community?

 

I enjoy playing both PvE and PvP, but have steadily seen the PvP population drop. The fact that BW doesn't even comment on any future PvP content possibly suggests they don't view it as a priority, and SWTOR is primarily a PvE game anyway.

 

So why are specs so often balanced around PvP? I would feel entirely comfortable stating over 95% of players have never played a ranked PvP match, where most of the balance changes actually matter, and that is being very generous.

Edited March 29, 2015 by arunav

[arunav]

To reply more directly to your OP, I seriously believe BW should consider getting rid of Expertise, and adjusting bolster such that everyone is brought to a given item level, no gear matter what they queue in.

 

This has been brought up before, but never has the game's PvP population been as starved for new players, and the gear grind and lack of new maps clearly isn't holding the interest of a larger PvP-base.

 

Rewards for comms could revolve around special gear sets, weapons, decorations, titles, and other unique PvP-only items. Both "PvE" and "PvP" players would be interested in these, and it would allow anyone to play both regular and ranked matches. This also fits into the SWTOR development team well, since they make new cosmetic items regularly and at a fast pace.

 

I can't count the times I've heard players say they would PvP at level cap but don't want to go through the gear grind, as well as up against people in ranked gear that are seasoned players. One is a population-related concern, the other partially a skill concern. Getting rid of Expertise would in large part address both these issues, especially over time. PvP would only be about individual skill in your class, understanding other classes, and working together as a team in WZs and arenas.

 

At this point in the game, where new content, especially PvP releases, are rarely if ever seen, I think this should be given thoughtful consideration.

Edited March 29, 2015 by arunav

[OrinVlado]

To reply more directly to your OP, I seriously believe BW should consider getting rid of Expertise, and adjusting bolster such that everyone is brought to a given item level, no gear matter what they queue in.

 

This has been brought up before, but never has the game's PvP population been as starved for new players, and the gear grind and lack of new maps clearly isn't holding the interest of a larger PvP-base.

 

Rewards for comms could revolve around special gear sets, weapons, decorations, titles, and other unique PvP-only items. Both "PvE" and "PvP" players would be interested in these, and it would allow anyone to play both regular and ranked matches. This also fits into the SWTOR development team well, since they make new cosmetic items regularly and at a fast pace.

 

I can't count the times I've heard players say they would PvP at level cap but don't want to go through the gear grind, as well as up against people in ranked gear that are seasoned players. One is a population-related concern, the other partially a skill concern. Getting rid of Expertise would in large part address both these issues, especially over time. PvP would only be about individual skill in your class, understanding other classes, and working together as a team in WZs and arenas.

 

At this point in the game, where new content, especially PvP releases, are rarely if ever seen, I think this should be given thoughtful consideration.

 

I couldn't agree more with all of that. I really do want to like PvP, but I don't because of the gear grind and the fact that you're pretty much useless without a good amount of expertise, which requires a gear grind. Also a lot (not all) of the pvp people are jerks lol.

Edited March 29, 2015 by OrinVlado

[Athena-Nike]

I agree how toxic PvP is in this game. I'd love to PvP but given I'm a progression raider all my gear and most of my time is spent on that (learning/practicing rotations and strats, getting the right optimal gear etc..) and entering 60 PvP in PvE gear is the best way to get flamed out of the match making it hell to get the coms to get the correct gear to even try and have fun PvP'ing.

 

I see a lot of people complain about the PvE "elitists" but honestly the entry into PvE is a lot easier then PvP, most PvE'ers don't mind explaining mechanics and helping people through FP's and SM Ops for gear and experience whereas most PvP'ers just flame and rage at anyone who dare try and learn to PvP at 60.

[ZooMzy]

I agree how toxic PvP is in this game. I'd love to PvP but given I'm a progression raider all my gear and most of my time is spent on that (learning/practicing rotations and strats, getting the right optimal gear etc..) and entering 60 PvP in PvE gear is the best way to get flamed out of the match making it hell to get the coms to get the correct gear to even try and have fun PvP'ing.

 

I see a lot of people complain about the PvE "elitists" but honestly the entry into PvE is a lot easier then PvP, most PvE'ers don't mind explaining mechanics and helping people through FP's and SM Ops for gear and experience whereas most PvP'ers just flame and rage at anyone who dare try and learn to PvP at 60.

 

No the entry into PvE is easier because you're not competing against another player. Bosses are more consistent than players are, along with ops basically being required to have a certain role composition (IE, you're always going to have healers and tanks in ops, but not in PvP)

 

And if all it takes to run you out of PvP is a beatdown and some mean text, then quite frankly, you don't really belong there. PvP is direct competition with another player: you're either going to step on someone or get stepped on.

 

If you have any sort of ego or pride in the slightest, you'll either have yours wounded a bit or the other person's wounded. It's the way of escalation: you beat them, they beat you, you beat them again, they beat you again. Coming up with strat after strat to beat each other, in the midst of all the people trying to counter each other.

 

You don't start at the top, and because of that, you get smashed in PvP. Why is it so bad? Not because of mean text, but because someone else actually performed it to you. I have never seen anything as embarrassing or demoralizing in ops as two coordinated burst DPS globalling you in regs repeatedly.

 

And that's the problem: this game is predominately casual. PvP is competitive at the very core, meaning you are only going to last so far in that game mode as a casual. Doesn't really matter how many friends you make or how much you enjoy winning: it's going to eventually make you quit. And since most people that play these games don't hold the same mindset as an athlete or militaristic ideals, most people are not going to enjoy the concept of what it is: fighting.

 

No one wants to take a punch, but everyone's willing to give one out. Making PvP cancerous to those who aren't in there for the pure sake of competition.

[Athena-Nike]

No the entry into PvE is easier because you're not competing against another player. Bosses are more consistent than players are, along with ops basically being required to have a certain role composition (IE, you're always going to have healers and tanks in ops, but not in PvP)

 

And if all it takes to run you out of PvP is a beatdown and some mean text, then quite frankly, you don't really belong there. PvP is direct competition with another player: you're either going to step on someone or get stepped on.

 

If you have any sort of ego or pride in the slightest, you'll either have yours wounded a bit or the other person's wounded. It's the way of escalation: you beat them, they beat you, you beat them again, they beat you again. Coming up with strat after strat to beat each other, in the midst of all the people trying to counter each other.

 

You don't start at the top, and because of that, you get smashed in PvP. Why is it so bad? Not because of mean text, but because someone else actually performed it to you. I have never seen anything as embarrassing or demoralizing in ops as two coordinated burst DPS globalling you in regs repeatedly.

 

And that's the problem: this game is predominately casual. PvP is competitive at the very core, meaning you are only going to last so far in that game mode as a casual. Doesn't really matter how many friends you make or how much you enjoy winning: it's going to eventually make you quit. And since most people that play these games don't hold the same mindset as an athlete or militaristic ideals, most people are not going to enjoy the concept of what it is: fighting.

 

No one wants to take a punch, but everyone's willing to give one out. Making PvP cancerous to those who aren't in there for the pure sake of competition.

 

You are missing the point, the point is PvE you rely on your team as much if not more then in PvP so just because you aren't fighting other people you are still fighting something that requires teamwork and knowledge to complete and PvE'ers are far more likely to HELP their team learn and progress while PvP'ers believe just as you do, they are gods and everyone else should bow to them. No thought about actually helping the new people on their team so they can win a match, they'd rather lose as superiors then win as a team.

 

Mean text hurting my feelings is the point. I play a game to have fun, I have fun PvE'ing because the PvE community is far more accepting and helpful. I have ZERO fun PvP'ing since that community at large couldn't care less about helping anyone else. If its not fun why bother trying? I don't expect to waltz into a PvP in PvE gear and dominate people who have earned better gear and are better through work and practice. I do wish to enter a PvP match and actually try and learn and try and gear while still having something that resembles fun which it currently does not.

 

Your attitude is the problem with the PvP environment in SWTOR (and most games I'd assume), feel free to keep your above it all godlike attitude but stop with the whining about long wait times and dead queues when you chase away anyone who even tries to enter the PvP arena. If you elitists only want other elites to fight then so be it, but if you actually want a larger more active PvP environment then lose the attitude and welcome people into it but don't act like anyone whos not you isnt worth a damn then whine that theres not enough people PvPing

Edited March 29, 2015 by Athena-Nike

[DomiSotto]

This is kind of weird, because I thought that the low floor rating for GR will create a lot of teas that will spontaneously queue for the crystals. But it just doesn't happen.

 

As for ease of entry, PvP is easier by far for someone with zero experience. The gear is easy to obtain and straightforward. Not too many zones. No insurmountable efforts required to find a group. No penalty for failure.

 

I have a completely opposite experience, with the PvP folks adopting a total scrub and willing to explain every little thing. In over a year of playing this game, I did not manage to get into PvE at all. In fact the only reason I have been through ToS (hilariously the only op I completed save for Rak and Gree event mini ones) is because someone who I play PvP with took me along.

Edited March 29, 2015 by DomiSotto

[arunav]

You don't start at the top, and because of that, you get smashed in PvP. Why is it so bad? Not because of mean text, but because someone else actually performed it to you. I have never seen anything as embarrassing or demoralizing in ops as two coordinated burst DPS globalling you in regs repeatedly.

 

And that's the problem: this game is predominately casual. PvP is competitive at the very core, meaning you are only going to last so far in that game mode as a casual. Doesn't really matter how many friends you make or how much you enjoy winning: it's going to eventually make you quit. And since most people that play these games don't hold the same mindset as an athlete or militaristic ideals, most people are not going to enjoy the concept of what it is: fighting.

 

No one wants to take a punch, but everyone's willing to give one out. Making PvP cancerous to those who aren't in there for the pure sake of competition.

 

Not really.

 

Having gotten full ranked PvP sets before, and recognizing player names over time, I can say for sure on my server it is most certainly NOT about who is the best and competition.

 

Once geared properly, many of the people I recognized that used to down me easily weren't actually good at their class. Put simply, they had the time to grind out ranked sets that were optimized, and basically bullied folks without equivalent Expertise and stat distributions.

 

Not only would WZs and arenas actually become a real competition (over a transition period) if Expertise were removed and everyone bolstered to the same item level, but queue times would go down substantially as people actually participated more. Ranked might actually mean something besides farming the same people at various times of day, switching factions to make the best use of your gear.

 

Nobody that PvPs seriously thinks it's actually competitive now. Many of the more principled players left, and, at least to me, a large proportion of who is left simply enjoys "winning" because of a gear advantage, i.e. ganking other players who don't even have a chance at fighting back.

 

The worst of this bunch is seen in lowbie PvP, months after 3.0 launched, still sitting at level 57 or 58 in full expertise gear, farming people at level 34. I thought it would eventually work itself out over time, but I still see these people, who to me are a cancer on what otherwise are fun portions of the game.

 

Also, if you are comparing yourself to an athlete by playing SWTOR PvP, I don't think you ever actually played a sport at a competitive level.

Edited March 29, 2015 by arunav

[DomiSotto]

I agree that folks in Brutalizer are pushing the envelope, but I have been through an arena at level 6 in regs when my team was 3 vs 4, with a merc, and two sage heals vs a full trinity with a tank, heals and 2 DPS. I was the second heals, and I am barely an average player; my two teammates were well above average. We won that reg arena.

 

It's not so much the gear, it is a matter of inexperience. Arena requires well above average awareness and well above average team synergy, so the guys who played together for a long time have a huge advantage. The current system does not promote training of the new teams. We cannot queue arenas only. Off season is cancelled. The only way to really get things rolling is to queue synq with similat novice teams for training purposes without worrying about the ratings.

[arunav]

I agree how toxic PvP is in this game. I'd love to PvP but given I'm a progression raider all my gear and most of my time is spent on that (learning/practicing rotations and strats, getting the right optimal gear etc..) and entering 60 PvP in PvE gear is the best way to get flamed out of the match making it hell to get the coms to get the correct gear to even try and have fun PvP'ing.

 

I see a lot of people complain about the PvE "elitists" but honestly the entry into PvE is a lot easier then PvP, most PvE'ers don't mind explaining mechanics and helping people through FP's and SM Ops for gear and experience whereas most PvP'ers just flame and rage at anyone who dare try and learn to PvP at 60.

 

I would suggest entering in your old PVE gear. If you don't have 162s saved in your cargo hold, you can still buy those sets with basic comms, or get 156 gear off the GTN. It will be frustrating for a few weeks (depending on how much time you play), but getting a full Tier 1 set makes an enormous difference. You'll find it pleasantly refreshing to realize you are better at PvP than you thought.

 

Also, I've found playing PvP makes you better in Operations. Even though the skills used and how are sometimes different, your reaction times and awareness of what is happening around you improve in ways they simply don't in PvE.

Edited March 29, 2015 by arunav