Kaggath Battlegrounds Final: Republic Resistance vs Imperial Droid Division

[Silenceo]

I interpreted it as a form of tutanimis, it's absorbing the offense attack and power of your opponent into yourself, and channelling it back at them in the form of your own attack, as you say Silenceo is a loop.

 

What goes around, comes around, and its going to come right back into Jerec's face. Make him all ugly.

Hmmm, now that is something. Could you provide a source/quote on that though? Just for the sake of analysing it further and because I am lazy and about to go to bed.

 

Well, since you claim it is a form of tutaminus, would it then not be on your shoulders to prove it so? Not everything that has to do with energy is tutaminis unless you want to say Jerec has crazy Tutaminus due to having completely developed, mastered, and patented the Force Destruction ability which makes use of condensed force energy to obliterate his foes.

 

As for absorbing the power that is over shadowed, low and behold the most quoted quote concerning Jerec ever! *Seriously, need to bind this one to a key or something the number of times it has been used...*

 

""His heavy brow overshadows the empty recesses that normally embrace eyes. Jerec has the uncanny power to absorb and overshadow one’s connection to the Force… like a dark cloud. A deep, empowering grasp of your will is what you need."―Qu Rahn as a Force ghost, to Kyle Katarn "

 

This is the line that is said by Qu Rahn, a man executed by Jerec in the beginning of Dark Forces II, right as Kyle Katarn goes in for the final show down.

 

Side Note: This also means that the more Jedi killed during the battle, the stronger Jerec would become.

Edited June 14, 2015 by Silenceo

[StarSquirrel]

I'll take Sel's point one step further.

 

If we were arguing

 

Is Nomi Sunrider a good lightsaber wielder? And listed criteria as, Deflecting blaster, fighting numerous opponents, working with others, was she noted as being such... then yes she would qualify and we could (and did) rank her.

 

But we aren't and your arguments have been taken into account when discussing our position. We aren't arguing from a lack of evidence but rather a lack of sufficient evidence to conclude that she is a good duelist, and better or even close to Jerec's skill. That is not a fallacy, that is logical reasoning.

 

For instance. Lets say, I told you Lebron James is a great Athlete. He is right? Perhaps one of the best in his sport at his time? However, if I said he'd beat Lionel Messi at football (soccer I guess) would you believe me? Or would you like to see him play a game? They're both athletes, but different sports require different skills.

 

You can acknowledge that he definately has skills that relate to the game due to evidence of what he'd done in basketball, like coordination, muscle tone, general athleticism, and intelligence. But in the end, the fact that Lionel Messi has actual evidence of his success in soccer means we'd rank him higher. That said, Lebron might actually be a great soccer player, but due to the better evidence pointing to Messi as having better Soccer-specific skills (regardless of Lebron maybe being faster or stronger or more coordinated) we'd rank Messi as being better.

 

Do you see my point?

[Beniboybling]

We've never seen her duel a high tier character, no. But we know that she uses Shii-Cho, we know she is not insanely fast. If she was a great duelist we would have seen as much in any of her appearances, she did not show anything of note.

 

It's like me saying Padme couldn't use Kinetite. We've never seen her try, it's never been specifically said "She's not a force user and can't use Kinetite", but we know that there are many times when she could have used it or could have been saved by it when she wasn't, thus it's very acceptable to say that Padme could not use Kinetite.

So your essentially saying that Nomi is a poor duelist, because she has failed to demonstrate necessary skill as a duelist when it would be necessary for her to do so. Correct me if I'm wrong. I understand, but I disagree.

The fact is that we've seen Nomi fight, she has not shown incredible skill. The fact we know she can hold a blade, was said to be a renowned warrior, has deflected blaster bolts and is a Shii-Cho duelist means we can place her on the ladder of skill. We are allowed to say she could perform that much, because we have information to say she could perform that much. To say she can perform more because reasons, is the fallacy.

Lets actually look at the instances in which we've seen Nomi fight:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111178634/4354049-nomi+sunrider+vs+krath+droids+1.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/4354050-nomi+sunrider+vs+krath+droids+2.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111178634/4354051-nomi+sunrider+vs+pirates+1.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111178634/4354052-nomi+sunrider+vs+pirates+2+stonebone.jpg

 

Now lets say Nomi was an individual possessing a high level of skill, is there anything in the above that would bring us to question this? Is their any failure to apply the notable skill she supposedly possesses? If so I do not see it. Nomi capable dispatches her opponents with little difficulty, and while not proof of her supposed skill, only by virtue of the general inferiority of her opponents ...although smashing a Krath droid with one's fist is pretty damn impressive.

 

I'm also going to have to ask for a source on Nomi wielding Shii-Cho, I can't find any evidence of it, and I'm questioning it because as far as I know, the lightsaber forms didn't even exist by TotJ.

 

Finally if your going to appeal to the vagueness of Nomi's abilities, your doing it wrong, you say we can place Nomi on the ladder of skill, but nothing more, your saying that anything beyond that is unquantifable. And yet here we are, quantifying Nomi's skill as X, X standing for poor and blitzworthy, because reasons.

The article you linked refers to talking about people we've never seen fight in that context. So for example, the character in the upcoming expansion that we saw a teaser image of. I cannot say he's bad or good at Lightsaber combat because we literally haven't seen a single thing from them. I could not say they have no skill in a single form because we've seen nothing.

Well at the very least we've established that Jerec cannot blitz unnamed Jedi #23495

What you're saying is more along the lines of "You're not allowed to say Coleman Trebor could not blitz Yoda. Just because we haven't seen him do it doesn't mean he can't", which is the fallacy here.

No it's not, because we have plenty of evidence to suggest Coleman Trebor is unskilled, first off he was considered more of a diplomat than a fighter, and secondly despite being a wielder of Soresu, he failed to adequately deflect the blaster fire of Jango Fett, and was subsequently killed. Nomi has never been stated to lack dueling ability, and she has never been in a situation where she has failed to apply the necessary skill the situation demands.

 

And Nomi, unlike Trebor, has actual evidence that suggests she is a highly skilled duellist.

Edited June 14, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

But we aren't and your arguments have been taken into account when discussing our position. We aren't arguing from a lack of evidence but rather a lack of sufficient evidence to conclude that she is a good duelist, and better or even close to Jerec's skill. That is not a fallacy, that is logical reasoning.

That's just semantics, there is no difference between a lack of evidence and a lack of sufficient evidence, your still appealing to an absence of evidence to support your argument. However if your going to argue that we lack sufficient evidence to conclude she is "good duelist", then you can't then turn around and say that we do have sufficient evidence to say she is a poor duellist, that's just double standards, and there is nothing logical or reasonable about it.

 

Simply because someone cannot be proven good, does not make them automatically bad. As I said to Sel, your essentially saying Nomi's skill is unquantifiable, and then going ahead and quantifying it.

 

I don't think your example is the best either, as we know Lebron James doesn't have as much football practice and experience as Messi, and no credible source, to my knowledge, has said that he is an excellent footballer. James' lack of comparable experience and practice in football is evidence (though not exactly concrete) he is not as good.

 

A better example would be the following. Lets say their exists Theoretical Footballer A, who we know played football around 100 years ago. We don't have much information on him other than a few photos of him scoring some goals. That said credible sources describe him as among the greatest footballers in history with renowned skill.

 

On this basis do we therefore conclude that this footballer is inferior to Messi? That he is a poor footballer whom Messi would run rings around? On the basis that the photos in question fail to provide sufficient evidence and demonstration of his skill? The photos do not depict him as poor or inferior to Messi any more than they depict him as superior, but nonetheless it's not sufficient proof is it? Messi would beat him 10/10 correct? Wrong. If the hype surrounding him is to be believed as accurate (and it is) its more likely that not that Messi will find him a suitable challenge to beat.

[Beniboybling]

Well, since you claim it is a form of tutaminus, would it then not be on your shoulders to prove it so? Not everything that has to do with energy is tutaminis unless you want to say Jerec has crazy Tutaminus due to having completely developed, mastered, and patented the Force Destruction ability which makes use of condensed force energy to obliterate his foes.

It's the absorption of an opponents power into oneself for one's own use, that we know for certain, you can call it whatever you like. But its quite obvious and evident and proven that that it serves an effective defense.

 

Good point about the Force cloud however though, as a passive power that could potentially work.

Edited June 14, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

So something from Lady:

Nomi Sunrider

 

Lightsaber combat:

 

Nomi Sunrider is very likely a Djem So practitioner, like Vodo Siosk-Baas himself was. This is signified by her overly aggressive power blows and strikes she is depicted as using and the blaster deflection she employs in battle, these are strong indications of a Form V duelist.

 

Telepathy:

 

Nomi Sunrider's true strength lay in her mental faculties, at the start of her Jedi training she was capable of mentally taking on the very powerful King Ommin, a master Sorcerer whom overwhelmed the extremely powerful Jedi Master Arca Jeth with ease, despite the fact she was taken off-guard by the mental assault. She was also able to mentally overwhelm mercenaries and Sithspawn and force them to turn on one another.

 

Later on she faced down and dominated Aleema Keto, an even more powerful sorceress and direct student of Freedon Nadd, twice totally overwhelming the witch. In one case Aleema was benefited by a meditation chamber in which her powers were magnified, despite this Nomi dominated her from space and probed her mind.

 

Mace Windu

 

Speed:

 

Mace is using his speed against Vastor, while Vastor was blinding, Mace was invisible...

 

Standing toe to toe, the top of Mace's head barely came to the level of Vastor's chin, and you could have tucked Mace's whole thick-muscled upper body inside Vastor's chest with room to spare. And even hurt, lurching drunkenly, Vaster still could whip his arms in blindingly fast raking slaps at Mace's head and wounded neck. But where Vastor's speed was blinding, Mace's was invisible. Not one of those slaps connected. Before Vastor could even focus his eyes, Mace had hit him six times: two thundering hooks to his short ribs, a knee slamming hard into the same thigh he'd hit before, an elbow snapping up to the point of his chin, and two devastating palm strikes to either hinge of his jaw.

 

- Source : Shatterpoint

 

Mace uses his creation Vaapad again:

 

Vastor's mighty arms spasmed and dropped limply to his sides. "This is called Vaapad, Kar." A fierce light burned in Mace's eyes. "How many arms do you see?"

 

- Source : Shatterpoint

 

Mace creates an impenetrable web of lightning:

 

The compound flooded with smoke and flame, with flashes of blaster bolts and snarls of hypersonic slugs. Mace paced through it all with relentless calm, his only expression a slight frown of concentration, his blades weaving an impenetrable web of lightning. He gave more and more of himself over to the Force, letting it move his hands, his feet, letting it guide him through the battle.

 

- Source : Shatterpoint

 

As you can see, Mace Windu does not require Vaapad as seen against Sidious to be on a completely different level of speed to either Desann or Jerec.

 

Telepathy:

 

Rhad Tarn (Jedi Knight) : I don't trust him. I've heard about Mace Windu's mind control abilities ! How do we know he won't change our minds for us?!

 

- Source : Jedi: Mace Windu

I have to agree - unless their is a source that says Nomi wields Shii-Cho, that Nomi wields Djem So, or potentially Ataru, definitely a strength orientated style of some kind.

 

Also should be noted Nomi can seemingly use her BM in situ, so she'll probably end up duelling Desann or some such.

Edited June 14, 2015 by Beniboybling

[raandomname]

How did Nomi even get allowed in this Kaggath, when we have so little information about her, because the current debate isnt really going anywhere without sufficient information.

[Beniboybling]

Misinformation really, probably won't include her in future Kaggaths.

[Jarons]

I have to say I think she was a shien practitioners of Form V not a Djem So user from what we seen from her.It could be possible that she perfected the style so she can combat other lightsaber users like Obi wan did with Soresu.I still think she is no match for Jerec.

[Aurbere]

Misinformation really, probably won't include her in future Kaggaths.

 

Good idea. The debate so far has been a catastrophe and one that I have been unwilling to even enter.

[Silenceo]

Good idea. The debate so far has been a catastrophe and one that I have been unwilling to even enter.

 

But... But Aurbere! You know you want to go into detail about how awesome Joyous-Jerec is compared to no-feats-Nomi! :p /sarcasm

 

That said... Inquisitorioum Dark Trooper... How many hits from Windu do we think he can sustain?

Edited June 15, 2015 by Silenceo

[Aurbere]

But... But Aurbere! You know you want to go into detail about how awesome Joyous-Jerec is compared to no-feats-Nomi! :p /sarcasm

 

That said... Inquisitorioum Dark Trooper... How many hits from Windu do we think he can sustain?

 

Sure, I'd totally support Jerec over Nomi.

 

Unfortunately, any argument I would make would take the grand scheme into account, in which Nomi doesn't even confront any IDD leaders.

[Silenceo]

Sure, I'd totally support Jerec over Nomi.

 

Unfortunately, any argument I would make would take the grand scheme into account, in which Nomi doesn't even confront any IDD leaders.

 

So Windu wouldn't be boosted? (Sends in a squad of PII)

 

No but really, I am curious everyone about thoughts on how durable the Inquisitorium Dark Trooper will prove should it have to protect Jerec.

[Aurbere]

No it's not, because we have plenty of evidence to suggest Coleman Trebor is unskilled, first off he was considered more of a diplomat than a fighter, and secondly despite being a wielder of Soresu, he failed to adequately deflect the blaster fire of Jango Fett, and was subsequently killed. Nomi has never been stated to lack dueling ability, and she has never been in a situation where she has failed to apply the necessary skill the situation demands.

 

And Nomi, unlike Trebor, has actual evidence that suggests she is a highly skilled duellist.

 

"An amphibious creature from the watery world of Sembla, Coleman Trebor is a brave and noble Jedi Knight and member of the Jedi High Council. He is one of many Jedi assembled by Mace Windu to confront the Separatist armies on Geonosis. Here, where the Clone Wars begin, Trebor defeats countless Geonosian warriors and droid battalions, but meets his ultimate fate in the gunslinging hands of bounty hunter Jango Fett."--Galactic Files Trading Card

 

Trebor solo'ing droid battalions.

[Aurbere]

So Windu wouldn't be boosted? (Sends in a squad of PII)

 

No but really, I am curious everyone about thoughts on how durable the Inquisitorium Dark Trooper will prove should it have to protect Jerec.

 

Not true, but I don't want to get into it.

[Beniboybling]

Good idea. The debate so far has been a catastrophe and one that I have been unwilling to even enter.

Well it's a shame you feel that way, your participation could have been valuable.

That said... Inquisitorioum Dark Trooper... How many hits from Windu do we think he can sustain?

I would imagine Mace Windu would attempt a Force crush, but it is made from Phrik so that's no mean feat.

"An amphibious creature from the watery world of Sembla, Coleman Trebor is a brave and noble Jedi Knight and member of the Jedi High Council. He is one of many Jedi assembled by Mace Windu to confront the Separatist armies on Geonosis. Here, where the Clone Wars begin, Trebor defeats countless Geonosian warriors and droid battalions, but meets his ultimate fate in the gunslinging hands of bounty hunter Jango Fett."--Galactic Files Trading Card

 

Trebor solo'ing droid battalions.

Ahsoka is better.

[Silenceo]

So... Just to keep the debate going...

 

1. Do you guys think there is any chance of a Mr. Abomination 2.0? (Desann DOES still know that trick...)

 

2. Where is the leadership fight most likely to take place at this time?

 

3. What effect do you guys think the factories will have numbers wise?

 

4. How does the RR plan to deal with the terrain issues? Such as getting onto Corporation Island with their Vehicles.

 

5. When will the RR be in position to launch its major attacks?

 

6. How much of the RR attack will still have a fleet in orbit to protect them?

 

7. What effect will Jerec's behind the scenes politicking have?

 

8. How long will Commander Cody survive? (Assassin droid, DT, Desann, Chameleon's, Snipers...)

 

9. How active will Windu be on the front lines? (Leads to possible injuries/death if spotted and ambushed by enough)

 

10. Is it even possible for the RR to learn much about the DT? (Due to how super top secret it was, and after RI's time)

Edited June 16, 2015 by Silenceo

[Beniboybling]

Well I'm going to call this soon folks, sorry for the delay but been awful busy.

 

EDIT: One thing that might be worth considering though is the argument Lady raised concerning dealing with the Vengeance by flying an Acclamator into it, its been raised that Trench may be expecting micro-jumps, but a hyperspace missile is something different, and I'm not sure what Trench would do to defend against it.

Edited June 18, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Silenceo]

Well I'm going to call this soon folks, sorry for the delay but been awful busy.

 

EDIT: One thing that might be worth considering though is the argument Lady raised concerning dealing with the Vengeance by flying an Acclamator into it, its been raised that Trench may be expecting micro-jumps, but a hyperspace missile is something different, and I'm not sure what Trench would do to defend against it.

 

The real question is:

 

Has Nek done so before? Not exactly a common tactic...

 

Side Note: Not to mention that to do so, they must know the EXACT location of the Vengeance before they jump. If they are off by even a little bit the tactic will fail.

Edited June 18, 2015 by Silenceo

[Beniboybling]

The real question is:

 

Has Nek done so before? Not exactly a common tactic...

 

Side Note: Not to mention that to do so, they must know the EXACT location of the Vengeance before they jump. If they are off by even a little bit the tactic will fail.

It's not commonly used because it is an extreme tactic, but considering how capable a tactician Nek is, I'm sure he'd be well aware as to how to apply it, it would merely be a case of deeming the situation necessary.

 

True, but that is something that can be acquired as soon as the Vengeance comes in range of their scanners.

[Silenceo]

It's not commonly used because it is an extreme tactic, but considering how capable a tactician Nek is, I'm sure he'd be well aware as to how to apply it, it would merely be a case of deeming the situation necessary.

 

True, but that is something that can be acquired as soon as the Vengeance comes in range of their scanners.

 

You are avoiding the question Beni, has he ever used that tactic before? Yes/No.

 

A very much less extreme tactic, and one that would basically stop a hyperspace ramming maneuver from being done, is quite simple really, and very likely to occur. That would be that the forces on the ground would send data concerning the orbital fleets positioning and such, which would allow the IDD fleet to exit hyperspace already within range over the planet. Not only that, but most fighters wouldn't be deployed by then either. Not to mention one of the Venators would already be out of commission or sabotaged by IG-88.

 

Nor is this a tactic that the Imperial crew is unfamiliar with. In fact, from ESB its sounds quite common.

 

Side Note: Wish we had a link to the space battle results for easy reference...

Edited June 18, 2015 by Silenceo

[Beniboybling]

You are avoiding the question Beni, has he ever used that tactic before? Yes/No.

I presumed the question to be rhetorical, in the respect that you were making the point that because Nek has never used this tactic (which I don't believe he has) he will not or cannot.

 

For reasons explained I don't believe that to be the case.

A very much less extreme tactic, and one that would basically stop a hyperspace ramming maneuver from being done, is quite simple really, and very likely to occur. That would be that the forces on the ground would send data concerning the orbital fleets positioning and such, which would allow the IDD fleet to exit hyperspace already within range over the planet. Not only that, but most fighters wouldn't be deployed by then either. Not to mention one of the Venators would already be out of commission or sabotaged by IG-88.

 

Nor is this a tactic that the Imperial crew is unfamiliar with. In fact, from ESB its sounds quite common.

 

Side Note: Wish we had a link to the space battle results for easy reference...

Not sure that would work, assuming that the hyperspace missile in question is positioned outside the system, which is how the tactic has been employed in the instance I saw it in.

[Silenceo]

I presumed the question to be rhetorical, in the respect that you were making the point that because Nek has never used this tactic (which I don't believe he has) he will not or cannot.

 

For reasons explained I don't believe that to be the case.Not sure that would work, assuming that the hyperspace missile in question is positioned outside the system, which is how the tactic has been employed in the instance I saw it in.

 

It was part rhetorical, and part ideological. I do not recall Nek winning every single battle he has ever been in. During those instances, has he sacrificed ships in such extreme ways to attempt to secure a victory? Or has he attempted to use tactical retreats in such situations?

 

I mean, does he even KNOW that the IDD fleet will return? Even then, why would he prep an Acclamator to do this? Not to mention that Acclamators require someone to pilot it to do such, and the Clone crews tend to have less than the normal number of droids on duty, due to the foes they typically faced. Who have, as previously stated, been known to hack and sabotage ships using droids who formerly were their own.

 

As for why simply being in such close proximity would work:

 

- LOS

- Proximity to RR fleet

- Small margin of error with hyperspace jumps

- Hyperdrive safe guards due to close to the planet

- Extremely strong shields/armor of Vengeance (Not sure how it got hurt so bad so quickly in the first battle...)

 

Trench would likely jump in so close to catch the RR off guard and to allow for first blood in a decisive manner, unaware of the potential hyperspace missile. Yet, it would negate such a tactic completely. Or, if the risk is still taken and safeties disengaged, potential CATASTROPHIC harm to the planets populace. With Jerec already politicking, that would basically cause GG for the RR. If the population no longer WANTS the RR there due to them causing much more harm than the ones that merely came to deal with Jedi (who are in certain circles, the root of galactic conflict)... They might view it all as Sunrider's fault.

 

Though, which instance do you refer Beni?

[Beniboybling]

Why? Because its a viable means of taking out the Praetor, which if not stopped immediately, will lead to the likely destruction of his remaining fleet. If anything, its the only option, drastic times call for drastic measures.

 

As for whether or not they would come back, its pretty likely for obvious reasons, and if they don't, then goodie for Nek, but it pays to be prepared. And sure droid crews are necessary, but it would hardly be difficult to muster some, between Kuat and Republic Intelligence, I'm sure they can manage. But how would proximity negate a tactic like this?

 

As I say they can jump from outside the system, so no micro-jumps are necessary. In that respect I don't get this proximity argument, all they need to the correct coordinates and its game over. The Vengeance is a pretty big target, they'd have to get the coordinates wrong by several kilometers to miss, and neither are they guessing.

Edited June 18, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Silenceo]

Why? Because its a viable means of taking out the Praetor, which if not stopped immediately, will lead to the likely destruction of his remaining fleet. If anything, its the only option, drastic times call for drastic measures.

 

As for whether or not they would come back, its pretty likely for obvious reasons, and if they don't, then goodie for Nek, but it pays to be prepared. And sure droid crews are necessary, but it would hardly be difficult to muster some, between Kuat and Republic Intelligence, I'm sure they can manage. But how would proximity negate a tactic like this?

 

As I say they can jump from outside the system, so no micro-jumps are necessary. In that respect I don't get this proximity argument, all they need to the correct coordinates and its game over. The Vengeance is a pretty big target, they'd have to get the coordinates wrong by several kilometers to miss, and neither are they guessing.

 

Well it actually be a narrow target if attacked from certain angles.

 

As for why it wouldn't be as successful as it was on that Executor, quite simple really, the Praetor has multiple advantages that the Executor lacks.

 

- Reinforced armor around Reactor specifically. Even more so than majority of armor which is said to be impervious or nearly so to star fighter weaponry.

- Thicker armor in the middle than the Executor. I mean, we have all seen the pictures...

- Explicitly stated that the Executor there was destroyed due to reactors being ruptured. One of the main points that the Praetor is noted for having defended much better than the other Star Destroyers, even Executor.

 

Beni, Proximity for these reasons, quite obvious really...

 

- Even a minor mis-calculation could lead to planetary destruction, a RR ship hit instead, or a near miss

- Hyperdrives have built in safety features that do not allow it to stay in hyperspace that close to a planet, severely reducing its effectiveness.

- Debris would cause severe issues for the populace, turning them against the RR

- Likely that the RR expects them a lot farther away from the planet, which if nothing else, causes recalculations to be made and the ship to be re-aimed.

- Possible for RR ships to block LOS to Praetor

- Sheer strength of Praetor shields/armor would prove quite effective (For example, the Executor survived the collision of 3 ISD's at hyperspeed. Half the size, and dealing with 1/6 or less the mass should be just fine. If they wait for shields to weaken, the RR fleet will already be too far gone)

Edited June 18, 2015 by Silenceo