Kaggath Battlegrounds Final: Republic Resistance vs Imperial Droid Division

[Beniboybling]

I see the leadership battle going like this Jerec and Desann both have to take on Mace Windu.With sunrider boosting his abilities with her battle meditation. Mace is strong enough to hold off and maybe defeat both on his own.Jerec and Desann do not have to win all they need to do hold off Mace long enough for IG-88 and a squad or PII to find sunrider location and assassinate her.Which is possible with sunrider exhausted from boosting Mace she will be easy prey for IG-88.

It's likely that Nomi will need to be present (as in this case she lacks anything to amplify the range of her BM) to be of any such use, but that also puts Windu in a position to directly defend her.

 

I can foresee an attempt such as this occurring though, if the RR manages to find an opening.

[StarSquirrel]

It's likely that Nomi will need to be present (as in this case she lacks anything to amplify the range of her BM) to be of any such use, but that also puts Windu in a position to directly defend her.

 

I can foresee an attempt such as this occurring though, if the RR manages to find an opening.

Considering IG-88 has all the tools necessary to kill a jedi... yeah a distracted Sunrider would be prey for IG-88.

 

If Mace chooses to defend Sunrider then Jerec gets the chance to unload on Mace or withdraw and let them die, and from there it becomes more of a game of time and firepower which the IDD can win with the DT's arriving to help.

 

Honestly this leadership battle boils down to three things.

1. How much better is Mace than Jerec (meaning how long can Jerec last?)

2. How well will Nomi be able to fight if she's helping Windu and what might a distracted Sunrider take away from Mace's ability to fight Jerec?

3. How effectively can the IDD neutralize Sunrider?

 

of the two leaders I honestly have to say I think the IDD has more of the right tools to neutralize Nomi than the RR has to eliminate Jerec despite the RR having an overall better team of Force-users. Jerec can at least last long enough against Mace to allow his people to kill Sunrider.

 

Not only that but the IDD can set layers of traps and plans to kill Nomi, so if Desaan and IG-88 fail they can call in DT II's with them. IG-88 alone has sonic, gas, neurotoxins and electric weapons (all good at killing or incapacitating jedi) and any combo alongside DT II's would create a case where Sunrider could be exposed if she let her guard down for a split second to deal with the gas/sonic/electrical/neurotoxins while she was under a shower of blaster fire and the withering assaults of Desaan (a rather large and physically impressive being to begin with)

 

My point is Mace is very good, but he has one way to kill Jerec. Meanwhile the IDD has lots of options for dispatching Sunrider and that should show itself in the points.

 

Oh, and adding in that Jerec knows Windu and his style. Jerec was also a jedi master so he'll know not to draw on the DS as much in a saber duel against Windu, leaving Windu's biggest anti-sith weapon (Vaapad) useless. That's not to say Jerec can win, but I figure he can hold his own quite well.

Edited June 13, 2015 by StarSquirrel

[Beniboybling]

Though I may be underestimating Jerec and Desann, I feel as if Mace Windu amped by Nomi's Battle Meditation will make short work of them. Desann is evidently powerful, but in most respects eclisped by Windu, and Jerec as a former Jedi Librarian, is likely lacking in the lightsaber department, while Windu has Vaapad for all his offense Force powers.

 

And surely Jerec "not drawing on the dark side", would be robbing him of a much more vital ability than Windu?

 

EDIT: I'm thinking that Jerec as a former librarian and altogether learned historian will likely know all about Nomi Sunrider (and indeed Windu) and her BM abilities, so him/IG-88 setting a trap for her is definitely on the cards.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Silenceo]

Though I may be underestimating Jerec and Desann, I feel as if Mace Windu amped by Nomi's Battle Meditation will make short work of them. Desann is evidently powerful, but in most respects eclisped by Windu, and Jerec as a former Jedi Librarian, is likely lacking in the lightsaber department, while Windu has Vaapad for all his offense Force powers.

 

And surely Jerec "not drawing on the dark side", would be robbing him of a much more vital ability than Windu?

 

EDIT: I'm thinking that Jerec as a former librarian and altogether learned historian will likely know all about Nomi Sunrider (and indeed Windu) and her BM abilities, so him/IG-88 setting a trap for her is definitely on the cards.

 

Incorrect my good sir!

 

"A committed scholar herself, she encouraged Jerec to continually quest for greater knowledge and understanding. He developed a voracious thirst for answers to all possible questions, as well as picking up a deep sense of scholarly self-assurance and confidence in his own knowledge.[2] Jerec's pursuit of learning extended to the physical disciplines, as he mastered the ancient Makashi form of lightsaber dueling.[9]"

 

Do note, that was all during his time as a Jedi, and unlike Mace, he has had more than 20 years after Order 66 to hone them further. Not saying Jerec is now better at lightsaber dueling than WIndu, heavens no! Merely that all of that practice and eliminating Jedi and all that, would of allowed him to take his mastery of Makashi, the form best known for use against lightsaber duelists, even farther.

 

It is also good to not forget that Desann is in a PII suit ever since the very first match, meaning he has had MUCH time to get accustomed to it as it fits with his fighting style of armor, reach, and ferocity. Meaning Desann only must protect his head against the majority of blows. Though the whole trap thing is almost a guarantee from what we know of all of the IDD leadership... Jerec is used to power plays, deceptions and ambushes. Desann has misled and deceived opponents such as Kyle Katarn easily. IG-88, elite assassin droid, enough said. Trench with all his defensive tactics and lures.

 

Combine all of that with Jerec's knowledge of Nomi and Windu, and you have a recipe for a really great trap!

 

Now, with that blurb out of the way... And it was sourced on the wiki even! Happy days! (Disappears back to the Conquest Data, to fight that Phantom Menace)

Edited June 13, 2015 by Silenceo

[StarSquirrel]

Though I may be underestimating Jerec and Desann, I feel as if Mace Windu amped by Nomi's Battle Meditation will make short work of them. Desann is evidently powerful, but in most respects eclisped by Windu, and Jerec as a former Jedi Librarian, is likely lacking in the lightsaber department, while Windu has Vaapad for all his offense Force powers.

 

And surely Jerec "not drawing on the dark side", would be robbing him of a much more vital ability than Windu?

 

EDIT: I'm thinking that Jerec as a former librarian and altogether learned historian will likely know all about Nomi Sunrider (and indeed Windu) and her BM abilities, so him/IG-88 setting a trap for her is definitely on the cards.

 

Jerec was a Jedi master and an archeologist not a librarian... His ability with a saber was actually quite good, having mastered Makashi... So holding his own against Windu is hardly out of the question. I won't go so far as to say he'd beat him in saber combat, but this won't be a cakewalk for Windu either.

 

He also has a lot of arcane knowledge and could likely beat Windu in a Force-vs-Force contest. In that respect you are overestimating Windu and Nomi's ability to reach him. Also yes, he likely has extensive knowledge of Sunrider and her feats.

 

As for Desaan... well Desaan used to be an apprentice of Luke Skywalker (therefore used the Djem So/Juyo combo known as the Strong style) and once beat Kyle Katarn extremely quickly with a powerful force grip. And those are just some of his talents. Overall I'd still say Jerec is the more powerful, but Desaan could hold his own against Windu as well, not to mention the unique features of his massive size combined with his therefore much larger saber (notably larger, with a wider beam and longer reach) and powerful use of Force Grip and Force Illusions as well as the obvious lightning.

 

That is a little bit of it that I know. I just want to be sure people don't dramatically underestimate these guys just because they're post-ROTJ era. Sil can give more info I missed I'm sure

Edited June 13, 2015 by StarSquirrel

[Selenial]

Honestly this leadership battle boils down to three things.

1. How much better is Mace than Jerec (meaning how long can Jerec last?)

2. How well will Nomi be able to fight if she's helping Windu and what might a distracted Sunrider take away from Mace's ability to fight Jerec?

3. How effectively can the IDD neutralize Sunrider?

 

I agree, people seem to be drastically overblowing how easily Windu will deal with Jerec and Desann at the same time. Jerec is a very powerful force user, he wasn't supposed to be that far off Vader, he drastically eclipses Nomi in force ability and would slaughter her in Lightsaber combat. She has almost no feats to suggest that she could face someone of his abilities and live, and accolades won't save her from him.

 

Two things with her Battle Meditation are that she bolsters allies and hinders enemies. Here, Jerec has far stronger telepathy than her, he will not be hindered. He also has the ability to hinder his enemies' ability to draw on the force. Him using such a power on Windu or Sunrider would even out the playing field to the point where Battle Meditation isn't a factor and neither is his aura, so to speak.

 

Now, Desann is not a normal fighter. He is a rare species, huge, with a larger than standard Lightsaber and Dark Trooper Phase II armour strapped to his enormous frame. Sufficed to say, he's not your standard combatant, and he's a pretty good duelist as it is. As we've seen during almost every fight ever, Windu does not go into fights guns blazing and all out. Against Talzin, his curiosity and fear of her powers led him to fight very conservatively, the same against other inferior duelists like Ventress. He won't be blitzing either of these Dark Jedi, and I doubt he could if he tried. Jerec himself is a very impressive duelist.

 

Indeed, all that they really need to do is occupy Windu. Just one of them. Desann can at least hold Windu off with his insane strength and brutal reach, while Jerec uses his Dark Kinetite to finish Nomi off from afar, or engages her in Lightsaber Combat and ends her life in frankly a matter of seconds.

 

People really seem to be underestimating Jerec here...

Edited June 13, 2015 by Selenial

[Beniboybling]

He also has a lot of arcane knowledge and could likely beat Windu in a Force-vs-Force contest. In that respect you are overestimating Windu and Nomi's ability to reach him. Also yes, he likely has extensive knowledge of Sunrider and her feats.

I would again raise Windu's Vaapad, by which he can easily redirect Jerec's lightning back at him, other than that he can emanate waves of hatred and attack with a dark side energy field, again all heavily dark sided powers that Vaapad, as more of state of mind than a form, should all be able to capably deflect. Add to that Windu's own prodigal mastery of the Force, and I find your conclusion unlikely. But other than that good points.

 

P.S. Also bear in mind that Windu's powers will be further amplified by Nomi's battle meditation.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Jerec is a very powerful force user, he wasn't supposed to be that far off Vader, he drastically eclipses Nomi in force ability and would slaughter her in Lightsaber combat. She has almost no feats to suggest that she could face someone of his abilities and live, and accolades won't save her from him.

I feel you've stepped into a logical fallacy there, we can not say that with any degree of certainty.

Here, Jerec has far stronger telepathy than her, he will not be hindered. He also has the ability to hinder his enemies' ability to draw on the force. Him using such a power on Windu or Sunrider would even out the playing field to the point where Battle Meditation isn't a factor and neither is his aura, so to speak.

Though a superior telepath, Nomi has Force light, by which she could potentially dispel Jerec's own powers, and again Vaapad should negate any powers Jerec attempts to employ against Windu.

As we've seen during almost every fight ever, Windu does not go into fights guns blazing and all out. Against Talzin, his curiosity and fear of her powers led him to fight very conservatively, the same against other inferior duelists like Ventress. He won't be blitzing either of these Dark Jedi, and I doubt he could if he tried. Jerec himself is a very impressive duelist.

Really? Windu wields Juyo/Vaapad, a highly aggressive and indeed all out form that can be summarised as attack attack attack, I don't think conservative is really in Windu's vocabulary and I don't see evidence of that in his duel with Talzin. Nor with Ventress, in fact Windu is said to have applied all his powers against her and the manner in which he conducts himself implies he was trying to drive her off with an all out assault.

[Silenceo]

I would again raise Windu's Vaapad, by which he can easily redirect Jerec's lightning back at him, other than that he can emanate waves of hatred and attack with a dark side energy field, again all heavily dark sided powers that Vaapad, as more of state of mind than a form, should all be able to capably deflect. Add to that Windu's own prodigal mastery of the Force, and I find your conclusion unlikely. But other than that good points.

 

P.S. Also bear in mind that Windu's powers will be further amplified by Nomi's battle meditation.

 

Quick question, but why would Jerec be alone? I mean, he typically has others around him to facilitate his plans and such, and the only time he was alone was when he was at the final stage of obtaining unlimited power.

 

At the very least, it is highly likely that the Inquisitorium Dark Trooper would be with Jerec at all times, seeing how its lack of mobility would severely hamper it out in the urban environment compared to the rest of the Dark Troopers.

 

While certainly not beyond Windu's abilities, I think it is best to remember that when fighting Jerec, it is more than likely he will have lackeys with him. That, and that one of the only times that Vaapad gave Windu anywhere near that huge of a boost, was when he faced Darth Sidious. So while it might him him against Jerec, the use of his dark side techniques may out weight the danger since Windu wouldn't magically get strong enough to speed blitz because Jerec decides to use lightning or some such.

 

Not saying he won't get any boost, he will, but that it will not be anywhere as noticeable as that one time against Sidious. Though, I do wonder about force power vs force power since Jerec was supposedly very close to Darth Vader in power. If I recall correctly, wasn't it argued at some point that Vader could crush Windu? Jerec of course couldn't crush him since his saber skills are less than Vader's, but his diverse force powers may give him an edge. After all, when Windu faced Talzin who used some bizarre variants of powers, he backed off quick rapidly.

 

After all, Jerec doesn't even need to WIN the duel against Windu. Merely survive.

[Selenial]

I would again raise Windu's Vaapad, by which he can easily redirect Jerec's lightning back at him, other than that he can emanate waves of hatred and attack with a dark side energy field, again all heavily dark sided powers that Vaapad, as more of state of mind than a form, should all be able to capably deflect. Add to that Windu's own prodigal mastery of the Force, and I find your conclusion unlikely. But other than that good points.

 

P.S. Also bear in mind that Windu's powers will be further amplified by Nomi's battle meditation.

 

Can you source any of this? Vapaad channels your opponents darkness against them, and your own inner darkness if you choose to take it to those levels. Where does it say anything about redirecting a Dark Side energy field? People seem to rate Vapaad far higher than it should be due to a lack of understanding of Windu's fight with Sidious. He fed off his own darkness, his own fear, Sidious' darkness, Sidious' fear and Anakin's fear and still barely managed to gather enough energy to deflect Sidious' lightning. It doesn't just bring you up to the level of your opponent where you can redirect powers you never normally should, with ease.

[Beniboybling]

Good point about Dark Troopers hadn't considered that.

 

And note, I'm not saying Windu will get a boost, but that Vaapad will prove more than an adequte means of defending himself against Jerec's abilities, as it is intended, remembering Jerec to be notably inferior to Sidious as a Force user.

 

And I don't know who said Vader could crush Windu, but they are silly. But where is it actually stated that Jerec's strength in the Force is comparable to Vader's? That is quite the bold claim.

[Selenial]

I feel you've stepped into a logical fallacy there, we can not say that with any degree of certainty.

Not sure if serious...

Mental attacks: Will not work on Jerec, and he's her equal.

Lightsaber Dueling: Jerec is far superior. Confirmed mastery of the dueling form vs literally no feats with a blade, what-so-ever.

Telekinesis: Jerec is far superior. Kinetite vs Lifting two guns. That's not even a comparison let's be honest here.

Esoteric Force abilites: Jerec is far superior. Probably in every way imaginable.

 

Though a superior telepath, Nomi has Force light, by which she could potentially dispel Jerec's own powers, and again Vaapad should negate any powers Jerec attempts to employ against Windu.

Refer to my previous post I guess. In regards to Nomi, not if she's dead.

Really? Windu wields Juyo/Vaapad, a highly aggressive and indeed all out form that can be summarised as attack attack attack, I don't think conservative is really in Windu's vocabulary and I don't see evidence of that in his duel with Talzin. Nor with Ventress, in fact Windu is said to have applied all his powers against her and the manner in which he conducts himself implies he was trying to drive her off with an all out assault.

He did not go rapidly on the offensive with Talzin, he did not against Sora Bulq either. He didn't do it against Ventress, you should probably actually read the comic. He specifically says he's not going all out. The only time Windu has ever launched into a desperate all out assault was against Sidious.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Selenial

[Silenceo]

Good point about Dark Troopers hadn't considered that.

 

And note, I'm not saying Windu will get a boost, but that Vaapad will prove more than an adequte means of defending himself against Jerec's abilities, as it is intended, remembering Jerec to be notably inferior to Sidious as a Force user.

 

And I don't know who said Vader could crush Windu, but they are silly. But where is it actually stated that Jerec's strength in the Force is comparable to Vader's? That is quite the bold claim.

 

I don't have a direct quote, but the minor phrase from the wiki is this, and it has the source Galaxy of Fear: Spore. Which if I recall, is one of Jerec's little schemes to take control that ended up going awry.

 

"Jerec was a powerful user of the Force; Tash Arranda, an untrained Force-sensitive, perceived him as being not quite as strong as Darth Vader, whom she had earlier encountered.[5]"

 

Though to be fair, Jerec had been planning on overthrowing Darth Vader for many years.

 

Dark Troopers > All.

[Selenial]

"The tattooed man's dark-side energy wasn't quite as powerful as the feeling she'd gotten from Darth Vader months ago." - Galaxy of Fear: Spore

 

See, this is what I meant by saying Jerec slaughters Nomi in accolades as well.

 

Edit: Apparently the manual to the Jedi Knight game said Jerec's: "embrace of the dark side gave him powers that rivaled Vader's ."

 

Edited June 13, 2015 by Selenial

[Beniboybling]

Can you source any of this? Vapaad channels your opponents darkness against them, and your own inner darkness if you choose to take it to those levels. Where does it say anything about redirecting a Dark Side energy field? People seem to rate Vapaad far higher than it should be due to a lack of understanding of Windu's fight with Sidious. He fed off his own darkness, his own fear, Sidious' darkness, Sidious' fear and Anakin's fear and still barely managed to gather enough energy to deflect Sidious' lightning. It doesn't just bring you up to the level of your opponent where you can redirect powers you never normally should, with ease.

Its self evident in Windu's ability to deflect Sidious' lightning. And I feel that argument would only hold water if Jerec was comparable to Sidious, he is not, his powers will be not be as strong, and therefore Windu's will not need to draw so deeply on Vaapad to deflect his powers. The fact that Windu did this suggests he already knows the technique.

Not sure if serious...

Your appealing to a lack of evidence on Nomi to support your argument, that's a logical fallacy.

He did not go rapidly on the offensive with Talzin, he did not against Sora Bulq either. He didn't do it against Ventress, you should probably actually read the comic. He specifically says he's not going all out. The only time Windu has ever launched into a desperate all out assault was against Sidious.

Concerning Talzin your assuming that's because he was being conservative, whereas he may have simply been overwhelmed by Talzin's power. However we barely see any of the fight, so can we really assume.

 

Concerning Sora Bulq, Windu is described as distressed by the act of fighting an old friend, so was likely holding back for that purpose. However given how easily he dispatches him, I very much doubt he was cautious of his abilities.

 

Though I do not know what your referring to concerning Ventress, considering this:

 

Mace Windu had to use all his skills to defeat the dark side fighter Asajj Ventress.

 

--Star Wars Official Fact File

 

And indeed, his opening attack is none other than an assured strike, an attack purely offense in nature designed to land a sure hit, and in general, end the duel quickly. Again Vaapad/Juyo is a shoot first, ask questions later form.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Selenial]

Its self evident in Windu's ability to deflect Sidious' lightning. And I feel that argument would only hold water if Jerec was comparable to Sidious, he is not, his powers will be not be as strong, and therefore Windu's will not need to draw so deeply on Vaapad to deflect his powers. The fact that Windu did this suggests he already knows the technique.

Not really. His powers aren't comparable to Sidious', but the his hatred is also not empowering Windu anywhere near as much as the other aspects of their fight would be. I'm not saying he can't deflect Jerec's lightning, but suggesting he can shrug off a mental assault while fighting perfectly and dismissing an ability that weakens connection to the force at the same time, while out-dueling a Master of Makashi is pushing it, don't you think?

 

Your appealing to a lack of evidence on Nomi to support your argument, that's a logical fallacy.

Unfortunately the logical fallacy is the hilarious over-blowing of Nomi Sunrider that's plagued this forum for the past few months. You're attempting to say that because we've not seen her later life, we must assume she grew in power so much she rivaled Vader? She has no feats and no notable accolades. She has shown very low tutaminis, very low levels of Telekinesis, decent telepathy and not much more. You're saying we must assume she grew rapidly in power, because reasons, and I'm the one basing my argument on a logical fallacy?

Concerning Talzin your assuming that's because he was being conservative, whereas he may have simply been overwhelmed by Talzin's power. However we barely see any of the fight, so can we really assume.

 

Concerning Sora Bulq, Windu is described as distressed by the act of fighting an old friend, so was likely holding back for that purpose. However given how easily he dispatches him, I very much doubt he was cautious of his abilities.

 

Though I do not know what your referring to concerning Ventress, considering this:

 

Mace Windu had to use all his skills to defeat the dark side fighter Asajj Ventress.

 

--Star Wars Official Fact File

 

And indeed, his opening attack is none other than an assured strike, an attack purely offense in nature designed to land a sure hit, and in general, end the duel quickly. Again Vaapad/Juyo is a shoot first, ask questions later form.

Oh yes, he really must have been overwhelmed by Talzin's amazing mastery of a flaming Sword, Talzin> Yoda confirmed. He could have disarmed her in seconds if he wasn't wary of the power she could unleash on him should he leave himself exposed, which is the exact same with Jerec. If he is caught without a Lightsaber by Jerec he is dead, simple as.

 

Regarding Windu, I'm referring to the fact that he chooses not to go all out in the hopes of sparing her life. Granted though this is an opponent he knew, and that's not really what we're debating here. Him vs Jerec is going to be very similar to him facing Talzin. If he even faces Jerec, you're forgetting Desann here.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Selenial

[StarSquirrel]

Appealing to a lack of evidence is only a fallacy if Sel was using it as an excuse to disregard actual evidence that would support Nomi.

 

For instance, if Nomi had a well-known duel against a highly acclaimed opponent and won or has been noted as having mastery of a form, yet Sel appealed to lack of evidence then yes that is a logical fallacy.

 

When there has been no evidence presented to support your position though, she is hardly committing a fallacy by calling you out on your failure to provide evidence for your position.

 

I hear people talk about fallacies a lot on these forums, and I'd really appreciate if people actually knew what was a fallacy and what was not. There is literally a fallacy that corresponds to every form of logical debate. Fallacies occur when you lack evidence to support your claims and your reasoning is not consistent, or you are intentionally misrepresenting/misinterpreting something to suit your goal.

 

That is not what is being done here. Instead of saying that Sel is appealing to lack of evidence, provide some evidence to discuss before making the claim of a fallacy...

 

And if you looked I'm sure you could find something for us to debate. However, I'm also sure that she has no dueling skills to speak of and her only saber feats are against armies of blaster-wielders and creatures further supporting Sel's position that her feats do not match those of Jerec or Desann.

Edited June 13, 2015 by StarSquirrel

[Silenceo]

Its self evident in Windu's ability to deflect Sidious' lightning. And I feel that argument would only hold water if Jerec was comparable to Sidious, he is not, his powers will be not be as strong, and therefore Windu's will not need to draw so deeply on Vaapad to deflect his powers. The fact that Windu did this suggests he already knows the technique.

 

Most Jedi can deflect Lightning Beni, you know this... It is true however that Sidious' lightning is stronger than the others but it still has a counter, despite it basically overwhelming the counter.

 

In regards to Jerec's abilities, other than his usual lightning during a saber duel, not much Windu could diffuse due to Vaapad, feeling lazy so going to just quote from the Jerec thread I made ages ago. Which could be used quite well by everyone here ya know.

 

Force Destruction: Essentially an extremely advanced variant of Force Wave, it condenses the power of the blast into a small space so that once it makes contact it expands, either launching the target violently in the opposite direction or incinerating it out right. He has been shown the ability to use such an ability to force an entire Cargo Ship out of its docking.

 

No way for Windu to deflect this, best bet is to evade it, and due to the speed of the attack depending on energy put into it, could be difficult.

 

Force Lightning: Not as strong as Force Destruction, but he often inter-weaved this ability in with his lightsaber strikes causing opponents onto the defensive. His uses of it seem almost casual, with no signs of it being draining nor difficult for him to maintain.

 

Yes, Windu can deflect this one, but not due to Vaapad. Light saber blocks lightning if put into position. However, something to note, as mentioned in the quote, is that from all the pictures we see of Jerec fighting, he often is using lightning in combination with his lightsaber, meaning he uses it often in light saber duels without hindering his light saber.

 

Force Sight: As a Miruluka he had an innate ability to see through the force which aided him greatly in confrontations, giving him many advantages that others would lack. The dark did not exist for him, nor could his vision be blocked by simplistic means. His use of this power also hints heavily towards an advanced use of Force Sense.

 

Not quite sure how Windu would block this one... Heck, if Jerec led Windu to a dark area or part of the trap included blowing out the lights, Jerec would gain advantage from this alone. While Jedi do not need to see well to fight, Miruluka have distinct advantages in the dark. That, and it would make countering force attacks harder for Windu since he can not see the movement of Jerec's body that well other than the light saber.

 

Mind Reading: Constantly during battle he would read his opponents mind quite literally, and more so than the average Jedi. In so doing he could easily spot and exploit an enemies weak points as well as their next move.

 

Not sure about this one, any feats for Windu resisting such advanced telepathy?

 

Drain Knowledge: While he was reading an others mind he had the ability to delve deeper, to seek any information he sought. Not even trained Jedi Masters could stop such an intrusion as we saw with Master Rahn. Such a technique could be used during the course of a battle to quite literally instantly know another fighting style, while causing harm to the targets psyche.

 

Jerec already knows a great deal about Windu and his style, but if he was lacking for anything he simply would have to take it from his mind.

 

Telekinesis: His abilities in this field are quite well developed, which is part of why his ability "Force Destruction" was so lethal, as well as the fact he found it effortless to move objects of decent size around him without difficulty.

 

Pretty standard really.

 

Force Flight: He demonstrates this ability on few occasions, but the most obvious example is when he finds the Valley of the Jedi and uses it to softly navigate into the inner chamber.

 

If the fight is not going well... 'Nope!' *fly away*

 

Force Stun: As seen in the beginning of Dark Forces II, this power instantly immobilizes its target, allowing Jerec to effortlessly decapitate his victims.

 

Less flashy than the other abilities, but one of the most devastating. All that is needed is for it to last less than a second and the effected opponent is finished.

 

Force Cloud: His exceptional force senses as well as his advanced studies into the dark side helped to develop the ability that all Inquisitors had to disrupt an opponents connection to the force. This power eventually transformed into essentially the "shroud" that forever hung around Jerec, sapping opponents strength while strengthening himself. Such an ability hints towards an understand of the drain technique as well as a good understanding of Aura's.

 

"His heavy brow overshadows the empty recesses that normally embrace eyes. Jerec has the uncanny power to absorb and overshadow one’s connection to the Force… like a dark cloud. A deep, empowering grasp of your will is what you need."―Qu Rahn as a Force ghost, to Kyle Katarn

 

 

Already discussed, and not really counter able other than just powering through with strong will power. That however does not stop it from hindering ones force abilities. Though, I wonder how strong Jerec may become throughout the course of the battle from absorbing and over shadowing the other Jedi present...

 

Force Rage: When needed he was capable of unleashing a great rage that greatly increased his speed as well as his ferocity in battle. However, due to the Aura "shroud" that could be felt around him, when he did so his opponents often were buffeted by waves of rage and dark side energy so strong, that times that itself incapacitated them.

 

Last, but certainly not least, Force Rage. Like other practitioners, it increases his strength, durability, and speed tremendously. Unlike most other practitioners, when Jerec uses it he sends out waves upon waves of anger that they themselves have been known to incapcitate his opponents.

 

So yeah, not really sure how Windu is supposed to counter the majority of these, since most of them are not exactly coutnerable unless one has a stronger grasp in that field that Jerec himself...

[Selenial]

And if you looked I'm sure you could find something for us to debate. However, I'm also sure that she has no dueling skills to speak of and her only saber feats are against armies of blaster-wielders and creatures further supporting Sel's position that her feats do not match those of Jerec or Desann.

 

Not to mention a Shii-cho duelist is going to perform well against Blasters and get executed in a duel, especially against a Makashi user. Your only way out is incredible speed, like Fisto, which she does not have.

 

I appreciate the support, by the way.

[Beniboybling]

Appealing to a lack of evidence is only a fallacy if Sel was using it as an excuse to disregard actual evidence that would support Nomi.

I'll quote the following source because they've put it in a better manner than I have:

An appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence.

Irrespective of whether evidence has been given for or against a claim. Lack of evidence is never evidence. Selenial is making the argument that there is no evidence to suggest Nomi is a capable duelist, therefore she is not a capable duelist, that is a appeal to ignorance plain and simple. And really I feel it should be obvious, your assuming that she lacks combat skill in the basis that you have never seen her demonstrate it.

 

You cannot reach that conclusion when you lack any actual evidence to support it. That is not to suggest she does as that would be equally fallacious in the respect that it's the exact opposite. I'd be assuming that Nomi does possess combat skill on the basis that there exist no evidence to suggest she doesn't.

 

However we are not in that present conundrum, else I would have had Nomi disallowed on the basis that we lack information, for that very reason, because it encourages the kind of wild assumption we are faced with now.

 

Nomi does not have a great deal of feats by which we can assess her power (though the feats she does display are hardly indicative of incompetency, but in fact great skill) but she does have accolades that regard her as the among the greatest Jedi of the age and indeed in current history. In order to be worthy of that kind of praise, Nomi is logically going to be skilled with a lightsaber, skilled enough at least, to defend herself from Jerec.

[Beniboybling]

Most Jedi can deflect Lightning Beni, you know this... It is true however that Sidious' lightning is stronger than the others but it still has a counter, despite it basically overwhelming the counter.

 

In regards to Jerec's abilities, other than his usual lightning during a saber duel, not much Windu could diffuse due to Vaapad, feeling lazy so going to just quote from the Jerec thread I made ages ago. Which could be used quite well by everyone here ya know.

True, but I meant deflect and redirect really. I'd also think Vaapad would give Windu better Force barriers, remembering that lightsaber in itself can't deflect Force energy, it requires the Force.

 

So in that way Vaapad is in many respects, a Force power that should be applicable to Force defenses in general. I think that might prove effective at deflecting things like Force destruction, by throwing up a Force shield.

 

But still, good points, Jerec has a lot of abilities I hadn't considered that could be of use.

[Silenceo]

I'll quote the following source because they've put it in a better manner than I have:

An appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence.

Irrespective of whether evidence has been given for or against a claim. Lack of evidence is never evidence. Selenial is making the argument that there is no evidence to suggest Nomi is a capable duelist, therefore she is not a capable duelist, that is a appeal to ignorance plain and simple. And really I feel it should be obvious, your assuming that she lacks combat skill in the basis that you have never seen her demonstrate it.

 

You cannot reach that conclusion when you lack any actual evidence to support it. That is not to suggest she does as that would be equally fallacious in the respect that it's the exact opposite. I'd be assuming that Nomi does possess combat skill on the basis that there exist no evidence to suggest she doesn't.

 

However we are not in that present conundrum, else I would have had Nomi disallowed on the basis that we lack information, for that very reason, because it encourages the kind of wild assumption we are faced with now.

 

Nomi does not have a great deal of feats by which we can assess her power (though the feats she does display are hardly indicative of incompetency, but in fact great skill) but she does have accolades that regard her as the among the greatest Jedi of the age and indeed in current history. In order to be worthy of that kind of praise, Nomi is logically going to be skilled with a lightsaber, skilled enough at least, to defend herself from Jerec.

 

Except Beni, you are lifting Nomi from being a poor combatant to one that can challenge a character that rivaled Darth Vader. That is just lunacy!

 

For example, if the greatest Jedi of her day could barely, idk, do a back flip. That would in no way make her comparable to Darth Vader who leaps all around the place.

 

A silly example, I know. But at the very basis of it, it is the key fact of 'Foe Quality' that must be addressed. It is also of note that Jedi, while warriors, are not meant to be only about combat. The quote saying she is one of the greatest Jedi of her age could merely mean she embodied the Jedi Ideals more than most other Jedi of her Era. It does not necessarily correlate to power, which her other showings reveal to not be in the same league as the likes of Darth Vader, Count Dooku, Mace Windu, Jerec, Desann, or even Corran Horn.

[Silenceo]

True, but I meant deflect and redirect really. I'd also think Vaapad would give Windu better Force barriers, remembering that lightsaber in itself can't deflect Force energy, it requires the Force.

 

So in that way Vaapad is in many respects, a Force power that should be applicable to Force defenses in general. I think that might prove effective at deflecting things like Force destruction, by throwing up a Force shield.

 

But still, good points, Jerec has a lot of abilities I hadn't considered that could be of use.

 

No where on the Vaapad page is it stated to act as a defensive technique in any way AT ALL. It grows the users power in relation to the dark side related emotions and the wielders inner darkness, yes. However, it is stated to be a loop and take the majority of the users force power to employ.

 

"Vaapad was described as more than a fighting style; it was a state of mind that led through the penumbra of the dark side, requiring the user to enjoy the fight, and relish the satisfaction of winning. The practitioner of Vaapad would accept the fury of their opponent, transforming them into one half of a superconducting loop, with the other half being the power of darkness inherent in the opponent.[13] The form was also mentioned with a cautionary warning by the Jedi that use of Vaapad led the user perilously close to the dark side due to its focus on physical combat.[3] Vaapad required a constant and sizable stream of Force use from the user, with a barely contained explosion of Force power essential to all variations of Form VII as another prerequisite for its use. The form's attacks appeared to be unconnected, its motions seemingly unpolished to an untrained observer.[17]"

 

Which leads me to one very specific, very important question:

 

Would Windu even be able to USE Vaapad? I would say NOT. *Hears the gasps across the internet* Hold it! LET ME EXPLAIN BEFORE YOU MAUL ME!

 

It is expressly stated to take a constant and sizable stream of the wielders force energy, which requires them to be able to focus on the saber combat alone. However, Jerec has the unique ability to PASSIVELY siphon away an opponents force energy and ADD IT TO HIS OWN. Think on that for a moment. Vaapad is a state of mind, yes, but if the force element is removed it is merely another style relying on the users skill. Windu is great, yes, but if he is constantly losing force power merely by being in Jerec's presence, he will unlikely be able to sustain Vaapad, or at the very least, be unable to use other force abilities such as strong barriers while it is being used.

[Selenial]

I'll quote the following source because they've put it in a better manner than I have:

An appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence.

Irrespective of whether evidence has been given for or against a claim. Lack of evidence is never evidence. Selenial is making the argument that there is no evidence to suggest Nomi is a capable duelist, therefore she is not a capable duelist, that is a appeal to ignorance plain and simple. And really I feel it should be obvious, your assuming that she lacks combat skill in the basis that you have never seen her demonstrate it.

 

You cannot reach that conclusion when you lack any actual evidence to support it. That is not to suggest she does as that would be equally fallacious in the respect that it's the exact opposite. I'd be assuming that Nomi does possess combat skill on the basis that there exist no evidence to suggest she doesn't.

 

However we are not in that present conundrum, else I would have had Nomi disallowed on the basis that we lack information, for that very reason, because it encourages the kind of wild assumption we are faced with now.

 

Nomi does not have a great deal of feats by which we can assess her power (though the feats she does display are hardly indicative of incompetency, but in fact great skill) but she does have accolades that regard her as the among the greatest Jedi of the age and indeed in current history. In order to be worthy of that kind of praise, Nomi is logically going to be skilled with a lightsaber, skilled enough at least, to defend herself from Jerec.

 

You lack a fundamental understanding of that type of Fallacy, you're looking at it completely wrong.

 

We've never seen her duel a high tier character, no. But we know that she uses Shii-Cho, we know she is not insanely fast. If she was a great duelist we would have seen as much in any of her appearances, she did not show anything of note.

 

It's like me saying Padme couldn't use Kinetite. We've never seen her try, it's never been specifically said "She's not a force user and can't use Kinetite", but we know that there are many times when she could have used it or could have been saved by it when she wasn't, thus it's very acceptable to say that Padme could not use Kinetite.

 

The fact is that we've seen Nomi fight, she has not shown incredible skill. The fact we know she can hold a blade, was said to be a renowned warrior, has deflected blaster bolts and is a Shii-Cho duelist means we can place her on the ladder of skill. We are allowed to say she could perform that much, because we have information to say she could perform that much. To say she can perform more because reasons, is the fallacy.

 

The article you linked refers to talking about people we've never seen fight in that context. So for example, the character in the upcoming expansion that we saw a teaser image of. I cannot say he's bad or good at Lightsaber combat because we literally haven't seen a single thing from them. I could not say they have no skill in a single form because we've seen nothing.

 

What you're saying is more along the lines of "You're not allowed to say Coleman Trebor could not blitz Yoda. Just because we haven't seen him do it doesn't mean he can't", which is the fallacy here.

[Beniboybling]

No where on the Vaapad page is it stated to act as a defensive technique in any way AT ALL. It grows the users power in relation to the dark side related emotions and the wielders inner darkness, yes. However, it is stated to be a loop and take the majority of the users force power to employ.

I interpreted it as a form of tutanimis, it's absorbing the offense attack and power of your opponent into yourself, and channelling it back at them in the form of your own attack, as you say Silenceo is a loop.

 

What goes around, comes around, and its going to come right back into Jerec's face. Make him all ugly.

It is expressly stated to take a constant and sizable stream of the wielders force energy, which requires them to be able to focus on the saber combat alone. However, Jerec has the unique ability to PASSIVELY siphon away an opponents force energy and ADD IT TO HIS OWN. Think on that for a moment. Vaapad is a state of mind, yes, but if the force element is removed it is merely another style relying on the users skill. Windu is great, yes, but if he is constantly losing force power merely by being in Jerec's presence, he will unlikely be able to sustain Vaapad, or at the very least, be unable to use other force abilities such as strong barriers while it is being used.

Hmmm, now that is something. Could you provide a source/quote on that though? Just for the sake of analysing it further and because I am lazy and about to go to bed.