Kaggath Battlegrounds Final: Republic Resistance vs Imperial Droid Division

[Silenceo]

Don't really have time to go into much right now, but figured I would bring something up that is important.

 

Vehicle Pilots.

 

Where are they coming from? They most certainly are not clones, nor does Kuat/Coruscant have a rep of good training academies that I can remember like what Carida had. Mostly, I am just curious as to who will be piloting the reinforcement vehicles since that would have a huuuuuge effect on their efficiency.

 

If it is merely volunteers or former civies, they are bound to be poorly operated. If it is some military personnel from one of the RR's planets, then how long is their training? Its for reasons like this that I love automated vehicles.

[Beniboybling]

Except Sullust does have the facilities to produce droids...

 

As for Gromas 16, will have to learn about the DT project first which would prove difficult due to the circumstances surrounding the project and its secrecy.

 

Hope the source on this is good... Since I don't trust the pod racing one.

 

"Forced into desperation, Sullustans began building secret underground facilities closer to the planet's core. Products created in those facilities were secretly smuggled offworld and sold in open market.[13]"

 

Side Note: This part is likely incorrect, but Soro Suub is only listed to be located on Sullust, and they have multiple droid designs that were used for combat, as well as ground vehicles, not to mention that on the Sullust page droids is listed as one of their main exports as well as there being mentions of the factories on the planets surface. Not quite sure why they would be unable to produce battle droids or their vehicles since they have done such before, after all, just needs to be the class.

Fair enough I just couldn't see any in their list of products. And indeed that is true.

[Beniboybling]

Don't really have time to go into much right now, but figured I would bring something up that is important.

 

Vehicle Pilots.

 

Where are they coming from? They most certainly are not clones, nor does Kuat/Coruscant have a rep of good training academies that I can remember like what Carida had. Mostly, I am just curious as to who will be piloting the reinforcement vehicles since that would have a huuuuuge effect on their efficiency.

 

If it is merely volunteers or former civies, they are bound to be poorly operated. If it is some military personnel from one of the RR's planets, then how long is their training? Its for reasons like this that I love automated vehicles.

As I have said in the past, vehicle pilots are whatever was standard for your main ground force of whatever ground force can provide. So for the Resistance they would be manned by clones, exclusive of their ground force pool.

[Beniboybling]

Each character can provide a personal vehicle in a Kaggath, both Cody and Mace had gunships, this will provide KDY with the means to produce more, the rules state that a supplier can produce more of what it's faction already has, thus LAAT gunships are producable in this instance.

Er no. I wouldn't count gunships as their personal vehicles and even if it were, that wouldn't be enough to get them mass produced. Concerns have been expressed Lady that your trying to find too many loopholes in the rules and I think they are warranted, I also see a lot of statements being thrown around that aren't being backed up by evidence.

 

I think in order to keep the debate running smoothly we should try and tone down on that. Its only going to make tallying more difficult and ultimately will prove a detriment to your score.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Beniboybling

[LadyKulvax]

Edit: nvm. Edited May 31, 2015 by LadyKulvax

[Beniboybling]

All I am saying is that people need clarify with me first when interpreting the rules, and that goes for both sides. It's not going to detriment anyones score, but it does hinder the flow of the debate. However I would appreciate providing evidence for arguments so I can properly judge the information, as that is important when tallying arguments.

[Beniboybling]

So anyone got anything to add concerning say leadership battles?

[Selenial]

So anyone got anything to add concerning say leadership battles?

 

[Aurbere]

 

Hmm... I wonder if you're over it as you say you are. That would allow for some rational discussion, after all.

 

Don't disappoint me.

[Beniboybling]

I feel as if I'm missing something. Either way no one got anything to add?

[raandomname]

Some things I want to point out:

 

First a few thing for the RR:

1. I cant believe that Im the first one to comment on this, but the RR has an extremelly coherent ground army. Its soldiers are commanded by the man who usually commands them, using vehicles that they usually use and are fighting an enemy with whose vehicles they are well accustomed.

2. Juggernaught are freakin beasts. They are essentialy better AT-ATs. Their armor is so strong, thick and heavy that lighter vehicle weapons leave nothing but burnmarks. Furthermore they are covered on all sides with weapon systems with good firing angles and coverage and tremendous firepower.

3. Persuaders have vulnerable protruding sensor eyes that may be taken out by clone snipers. They are also vulnerable to flanking when they are not protected by advantageous terrain.

 

Things for the IDD:

1. UT-ATs really arent that great, especially in this environment. They are rather large and will have some trouble maneuvering in the urban environment and their artilery component is completelly nullified by the terrain, forcing them to engage at shorter ranges where their lack of survivability will make them easy prey to the IDD's forces. All in all I cant see these vehicles being very effective.

2. The Persuaders will greatly benefit from the urban terrain. While their flanks are extremelly vulnerable, they are well suited to moving along narrower streets with buildings protecting their flanks. Furthermore, they can be used as a sort of blockade runner, smashing through lighter enemy fortifications and carrying P1s on their tracks straight into melee range.

3. The P1s also benefit greatly from the urban terrain that offers them a lot of cover. Ambushes are definetelly likely. They will also be lethal inside of buildings that the RR is going to have to take in order to gain an advantage.

4. Clones have a terrible track record against fast moving melee opponents.

5. The RR will have no clue that P2s and P3s are droids untill they actually dismantle one which isnt going to be easy with blasters.

6. Taking out Juggernaughts: the strategy Sil proposed, of using Spider Droids' cutting lasers to sever of their weapons is a very good one, as it seems unlikelly that the actual weapons will be heavilly armored. Another option would be to board the Juggernaughts. With concentrated fire power the IDD should be able to blow a hole in the Jugernaughts' armor. Dark troopers can then use their jet packs to fly through these holes and slaughter the clones inside.

[StarSquirrel]

Adding to something random said,

 

In regards to P1's vs clones:

 

I agree that at range, the Clones are extremely superior and could do serious damage to any formation of P1's. However, if they are to try and take a building, or moving along city streets, they lose their range advantage entirely. In a city, the P1's will be very good with ambushes and swift assaults complemented by quick-moving tank-droids.

 

Like random mentioned, imagine a platoon or company of clones advancing along a street. They get to a cross-street, set up a position, and within seconds P1's swarm out of the buildings around them, the P2's rain fire from above, and Tank Droids charge into their lines lobing grenades to soften up the formation before the P1's from the buildings and the ones riding the Tank Droids fall all over them.

 

Clone snipers will be easily tracked by Spelunker droids that can slip up to their perches and murder them (assuming Sil gets at least 1 supply drop) or the P2's could do the job with their jetpacks and extreme mobility.

 

Also note that P1's have blast shields that they carry, so a shield wall of P1's charging down a hallway would be virtually unstoppable to a squad of clone troopers.

 

I respect clones, but they have shown severe weakness to trained melee fighters and the enclosed, tight city-streets and tunnels of Corellia will work severely against them on top of that..

[Silenceo]

Something to note, is that even if somehow the IDD gets no supply drops despite the drop pods that are quite good at getting into atmosphere... All that the IDD needs minus Dark Troopers and large vehicles could be made in the factories on Corellia, specifically, the ones in the Corporation Island which have already been said would be purchased/taken/captured by the IDD early on.

 

So even if some how supply drops do not get through, they could still use the local resources to construct Chameleon droids as well as other things that they may need. I mean, have you seen how many factories there are in that sector of the city?!

[Beniboybling]

Excellent points all, but I wouldn't overstate the disadvantages of the terrain for the Republic Resistance, while there will indeed be smaller streets and confined buildings, there is a great deal of open terrain on Corellia as well.

 

Axial Park for example is a vast open space, and there are many similar parks scattered across the city. Many of the streets themselves are fairly wide and there are many open and defensible locations, to provide some examples:

 

http://www.buffed.de/screenshots/1280x1024/2012/02/swtor_corellia_09.jpg

http://download.gamezone.com/uploads/image/data/874581/Corellia_5.jpg

http://www.buffed.de/screenshots/1280x1024/2012/02/swtor_corellia_08.jpg

http://www.swtor.eu/wp-content/gallery/screenshots/ss_20100910_002_abwehrgeschuetze-vor-regierungsgebaeude-auf-corellia.jpg

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/7937/corelliascreenshot003.jpg

 

In that respect, the urban terrain could just as easily lend itself to more open warfare such as this. And if the Resistance are smart they will attempt to steer the direct the conflict to these environments. Bearing in mind that Commander Cody himself was present in that battle on Christophsis and Clones have experience in urban warfare.

 

Also bearing in mind that both Cody and Windu are both very capable tacticians whereas the IDD are lacking.

Edited June 4, 2015 by Beniboybling

[StarSquirrel]

The tactical disparity is an issue sure.

 

However the pictures you provided showed that while yes, certain parts of Corellia have open spaces (still note most of that was still buildings or surrounded by them) there was an immense about of cover and objects that wreak all sorts of havoc on LOS. LOS is needed for ranged units to be at their most effective, and even in the open areas this is a severe problem for the clones.

 

P1's jumping from cover to cover or hiding even just below the edge of one of those tiers on the side of a road would be immensely more effective than they might otherwise be.

 

And once melee has started, there isn't a whole lot the tacticians can do beside throw troops at it or withdraw.

[raandomname]

Excellent points all, but I wouldn't overstate the disadvantages of the terrain for the Republic Resistance, while there will indeed be smaller streets and confined buildings, there is a great deal of open terrain on Corellia as well.

 

Axial Park for example is a vast open space, and there are many similar parks scattered across the city. Many of the streets themselves are fairly wide and there are many open and defensible locations, to provide some examples:

 

http://www.buffed.de/screenshots/1280x1024/2012/02/swtor_corellia_09.jpg

http://download.gamezone.com/uploads/image/data/874581/Corellia_5.jpg

http://www.buffed.de/screenshots/1280x1024/2012/02/swtor_corellia_08.jpg

http://www.swtor.eu/wp-content/gallery/screenshots/ss_20100910_002_abwehrgeschuetze-vor-regierungsgebaeude-auf-corellia.jpg

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/7937/corelliascreenshot003.jpg

 

In that respect, the urban terrain could just as easily lend itself to more open warfare such as this. And if the Resistance are smart they will attempt to steer the direct the conflict to these environments. Bearing in mind that Commander Cody himself was present in that battle on Christophsis and Clones have experience in urban warfare.

 

Also bearing in mind that both Cody and Windu are both very capable tacticians whereas the IDD are lacking.

I havent done any clacs, but just from guessing, Id say that the first picture you posted is the only one that may just be able to house a Juggernaught.

[Beniboybling]

The tactical disparity is an issue sure.

 

However the pictures you provided showed that while yes, certain parts of Corellia have open spaces (still note most of that was still buildings or surrounded by them) there was an immense about of cover and objects that wreak all sorts of havoc on LOS. LOS is needed for ranged units to be at their most effective, and even in the open areas this is a severe problem for the clones.

 

P1's jumping from cover to cover or hiding even just below the edge of one of those tiers on the side of a road would be immensely more effective than they might otherwise be.

 

And once melee has started, there isn't a whole lot the tacticians can do beside throw troops at it or withdraw.

Fair points, it would be a good strategy for the IDD to fill those buildings with droids and then have them ambush forces on the ground from those points. Any attempts by the Resistance to flush them out given the IDD a terrain advantage.

 

However if the Resistance manage to more rapidly capture territory and establish defense positions, they'll be in a position to block access to the buildings and force them into the streets where they will be more exposed.

 

On that note I'd remind us of a strategy used by the RR in the past Kaggath, being using the UT-ATs to scale the buildings, and to hollow up platforms for the UT-ATs to fire from vantage points, in this manner they could control the skies and restrict the enemies ability to quickly transport troops. Just some food for thought.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

So anyone got anything to add concerning say leadership battles?

Reposting for thoughts, other than that I shall begin tallying up the scores...

[Silenceo]

Reposting for thoughts, other than that I shall begin tallying up the scores...

 

IDD's style and fashion > RR's style and fashion. Everyone knows the Empire has cooler outfits.

 

*Awaits new style category* /sarcasm

[raandomname]

However if the Resistance manage to more rapidly capture territory and establish defense positions

How would they do that exactly?

On that note I'd remind us of a strategy used by the RR in the past Kaggath, being using the UT-ATs to scale the buildings, and to hollow up platforms for the UT-ATs to fire from vantage points, in this manner they could control the skies and restrict the enemies ability to quickly transport troops. Just some food for thought.

Since when can UT-ATs scale buildings? Also a vantage point doesnt help much against an enemy with jetpacks who is very durable has a huge numerical advantage (against the UT-ATs, not the RR as a whole ofc) and can destroy the super flimsy UT-ATs easilly.

[Beniboybling]

The skis have reverse repulsion capabilities that great "gription fields" allowing them to scale sheer surfaces.

 

On the other hand I wouldn't say the UT-ATs are at all "super flimsy", considering they are intended to provide heavy artillery support on the frontlines and indeed serve as replacements for AT-TEs where necessary.

 

However good points about jetpacks, furthermore according to the Wookiee:

Due to the vehicle's elevated position, a significant gap existed between the vehicle and the surface, which could be exploited by well-placed explosives. If hit in such a fashion, the UT-AT would rocket up into the air before crashing back down, usually killing all crew and passengers.

So if they manage to get in close, they could easily blow them off the buildings, assuming they intercept.

IDD's style and fashion > RR's style and fashion. Everyone knows the Empire has cooler outfits.

 

*Awaits new style category* /sarcasm

Edited June 10, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Silenceo]

 

[StarSquirrel]

So if they manage to get in close, they could easily blow them off the buildings, assuming they intercept.

 

And if you consider how hard it would be to hide a UT-AT in the first place... not to mention one totally exposed on the vertical face of a 200 story building...

Edited June 10, 2015 by StarSquirrel

[raandomname]

Just my personal sumary of how I think the battle will commerce:

1. IDD defeats the remnants of the RR fleet

2. With supplies coming in from Sullust, Dark Troopers and IG-88 hackz the IDD wins the ground battle

3. In the final leadership battle Id say that Jerec and Sunrider are roughly equal, but Mace>>>Desann. However, after securing the ground victory the IDD leadership will be able to call in DTs as reinforcements and probably secure a close victory.

[Jarons]

I see the leadership battle going like this Jerec and Desann both have to take on Mace Windu.With sunrider boosting his abilities with her battle meditation. Mace is strong enough to hold off and maybe defeat both on his own.Jerec and Desann do not have to win all they need to do hold off Mace long enough for IG-88 and a squad or PII to find sunrider location and assassinate her.Which is possible with sunrider exhausted from boosting Mace she will be easy prey for IG-88.