Kaggath Battlegrounds Final: Republic Resistance vs Imperial Droid Division

[Beniboybling]

But with the Venator's having the superior range, they are in a position to do effective damage from a far, the IDD will have to attempt to engage the Republic Resistance ship to ship, an arena in which not only will the RR have the advantage, but be in a position to pick off corvettes as they bear down on them, and destroy them at close range.

 

At close range friendly fire will also become an issue, and the corvettes splatter of lasers a hazard.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Beniboybling

[tunewalker]

But with the Venator's having the superior range, they are in a position to do effective damage from a far, the IDD will have to attempt to engage the Republic Resistance ship to ship, an arena in which not only will the RR have the advantage, but be in a position to pick up corvettes as they bear down on them, and destroy them at close range.

 

At close range friendly fire will also become an issue, and the corvettes splatter of lasers a hazard.

 

Not really. The Tartans will last longer against the Capital ships then those Fighters will last against the Corvettes (I Covered this) just 5 Tartans are enough to act as screening for like 50-100 Squads, when one gets shot down another takes its place. They still Last a HELL of a lot longer then the fighters will last against them. AND the Venators and the like STILL have to contend with the Praetor class monstrosity and the other Vindicators.

[Beniboybling]

Not really. The Tartans will last longer against the Capital ships then those Fighters will last against the Corvettes (I Covered this) just 5 Tartans are enough to act as screening for like 50-100 Squads, when one gets shot down another takes its place. They still Last a HELL of a lot longer then the fighters will last against them. AND the Venators and the like STILL have to contend with the Praetor class monstrosity and the other Vindicators.

The objective would be to destroy the Tartans before dispatching the fighters to engage.

 

And when they do engage, they'll do so at close range, where they can use the enemy as a screen.

 

And while other capital ships would be an issue, they do have 10 Acclamators and anti-ship cannons.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Beniboybling

[tunewalker]

The objective would be to destroy the Tartans before dispatching the fighters to engage.

 

And when they do engage, they'll do so at close range, where they can use the enemy as a screen.

 

If that is the case, the Tartans wont move in close to engage like that, they dont NEED to move them in with the Vindicators Fighter defenses, and like that, that ALSO means that IDD fighters can have free rain devistating the RR's capital ships. All you do by NOT deploying your fighters is putting yourself in a WORSE position not a better one.

[Beniboybling]

If that is the case, the Tartans wont move in close to engage like that, they dont NEED to move them in with the Vindicators Fighter defenses, and like that, that ALSO means that IDD fighters can have free rain devistating the RR's capital ships. All you do by NOT deploying your fighters is putting yourself in a WORSE position not a better one.

But your forgetting the Venator's have superior range, if they don't move in close and play defensive, they'd be allowing the RR to bombard them with impunity. The range of a Tartan is certainly nothing in comparison.

 

That way they can keep their fighters back, and let the IDD come to them.

[Silenceo]

But with the Venator's having the superior range, they are in a position to do effective damage from a far, the IDD will have to attempt to engage the Republic Resistance ship to ship, an arena in which not only will the RR have the advantage, but be in a position to pick off corvettes as they bear down on them, and destroy them at close range.

 

At close range friendly fire will also become an issue, and the corvettes splatter of lasers a hazard.

 

Trying to stay out of it, but just wanted to mention that the Praetor II has 10 dual long range turbo laser batteries. So Essential 50 long range ion cannons. It also is fully capable of tanking that long range fire, and the long range missiles/torpedos will not be making contact due to all the defenses the IDD possess. It may actually be the RR that is forced to close.

 

Nor are Venators known to survive all that much punishment from good firepower. Here, it is ion weaponry that will disable their long range capabilities. If enough of the RR is disabled... Well...

 

*goes back to observing*

[tunewalker]

But your forgetting the Venator's have superior range, if they don't move in close and play defensive, they'd be allowing the RR to bombard them with impunity. The range of a Tartan is certainly nothing in comparison.

 

That way they can keep their fighters back, and let the IDD come to them.

 

Re-read that and come back again.... Because your statement did not address why the Tartans have to move in, nor if the Fighters are deployed and just "hanging back" with the fleet how it changes the over all. You said, nothing that I didnt specifically state a counter to. You changed 0 about the scenario or how it would in any way be helpful.

Edited March 27, 2015 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

Trying to stay out of it, but just wanted to mention that the Praetor II has 10 dual long range turbo laser batteries. So Essential 50 long range ion cannons. It also is fully capable of tanking that long range fire, and the long range missiles/torpedos will not be making contact due to all the defenses the IDD possess. It may actually be the RR that is forced to close.

 

Nor are Venators known to survive all that much punishment from good firepower. Here, it is ion weaponry that will disable their long range capabilities. If enough of the RR is disabled... Well...

 

*goes back to observing*

*readies lasso to reel Silenceo in*

 

Ah yes, I remember those pesky cannons.

 

A bold claim though, the Venator-class was the primary warship of the Republic, that could divert the power of their reactors to the cannons, a flotilla of these could easily take down a Lucrehulk, at long range I'm sure it could do significant damage to a Praetor, which with only ion cannons at range, would be at a firepower disadvantage.

 

Certainly though it could be effective at temporarily disabling the Venator's weapons to allow the IDD fleet to get it close without suffering to many casualties. They do have 32 in total however, and can probably take some hits.

Re-read that and come back again.... Because your statement did not address why the Tartans have to move in, nor if the Fighters are deployed and just "hanging back" with the fleet how it changes the over all. You said, nothing that I didnt specifically state a counter to. You changed 0 about the scenario or how it would in any way be helpful.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Beniboybling

[tunewalker]

 

 

A shame, Beni has lost his ability to read.... lol "Sorry cant read" is a problem

[raandomname]

But with the Venator's having the superior range, they are in a position to do effective damage from a far, the IDD will have to attempt to engage the Republic Resistance ship to ship, an arena in which not only will the RR have the advantage, but be in a position to pick off corvettes as they bear down on them, and destroy them at close range.

 

At close range friendly fire will also become an issue, and the corvettes splatter of lasers a hazard.

1. The Praetor could use its long range ion canons to disable some of the DBYs.

2. The close range part doesnt really make sense. Just because the IDD will have to move closer to their enemies, that doesnt suddenly mean that the whole battle will suddenly tske place at knife fighting range. Your scenario only makes sense when the Tartans decide to for some reason engage enemy star destroyers at ultra close range, without support and without any maneuvering. The Tartans will obviously act together with the larger ships that will shield them and will use evasive maneuvers.

[raandomname]

a flotilla of these could easily take down a Lucrehulk, at long range I'm sure it could do significant damage to a Praetor

Because a re-fitted freighter and an incredibly powerful battle ship that is almost 3 times its size are totally comparable.

[Beniboybling]

1. The Praetor could use its long range ion canons to disable some of the DBYs.

2. The close range part doesnt really make sense. Just because the IDD will have to move closer to their enemies, that doesnt suddenly mean that the whole battle will suddenly tske place at knife fighting range. Your scenario only makes sense when the Tartans decide to for some reason engage enemy star destroyers at ultra close range, without support and without any maneuvering. The Tartans will obviously act together with the larger ships that will shield them and will use evasive maneuvers.

Obviously they would engage at close range as a fleet, but when it comes down to evasions and maneuvers you need to take into account the abilities of the tacticians, the fact is though the closer they get the easier targets they become.

 

But if the IDD fleet moves closer the RR are in a position to quickly close the gap without suffering heavy casualties.

[Beniboybling]

Because a re-fitted freighter and an incredibly powerful battle ship that is almost 3 times its size are totally comparable.

They were converted into true battleships, and among the most powerful in the CIS navy, so I wouldn't underestimate them. However there is a difference between tearing through shields with little difficult and doing some damage, so yes, I think its a testament to their ability, we should assume the Praetor at all invulnerable to their attacks.

[raandomname]

To show how powerful the Preator actually is, Im going to compare its fire power to that of the entire RR fleet.

 

RR Fleet:

1 Imperious: 225 turbolasers

Although its exact firepower is unknow, (the Wookiee stats are just to low to be taken seriously) Id estimate it to have a firepower of 250 turbolasers maximum. The Pelleaon-Class has a firepower of 150 turbolasers (50 normal and 50 heavy turbos) and as the Imperious is basically the Pelleaon II, the Imperious probably has 200-250 turbos. Ill take the middle ground and go with 225.

4 Venators: 264 turbolasers

4 x 66=264

10 Acclamators: 240 turbolasers

10 x 24=240

Total: 729 turbolasers

225+264+240=729

 

vs.

 

Preator II: 1400 turbolasers

300 heavy quads and 200 standards=(300 x 2 x 2) + 200=1400

 

Yeah, thats right: THE PREATOR II HAS ALMOST 2 TIMES AS MUCH FIREPOWER AS THE ENTIRE RR FLEET COMBINED.

[raandomname]

Obviously they would engage at close range as a fleet, but when it comes down to evasions and maneuvers you need to take into account the abilities of the tacticians

While Im not a fan of Trench myself, he should be able to order evasive maneuvers effectively enough and executing them shouldnt be a problem. Do I need to remind you of the countless quotes Sil brought up about the skill and competence of Imperial crews in the last match?

[raandomname]

Trying to stay out of it, but just wanted to mention that the Praetor II has 10 dual long range turbo laser batteries. So Essential 50 long range ion cannons. It also is fully capable of tanking that long range fire, and the long range missiles/torpedos will not be making contact due to all the defenses the IDD possess. It may actually be the RR that is forced to close.

 

Nor are Venators known to survive all that much punishment from good firepower. Here, it is ion weaponry that will disable their long range capabilities. If enough of the RR is disabled... Well...

 

*goes back to observing*

And I thought that this would be the first Kaggath without any participation from the faction creators.

[Silenceo]

And I thought that this would be the first Kaggath without any participation from the faction creators.

 

Couldn't let him just pew pew his Venators at the fleet without saying anything. I tried! I really did!

 

Into exile I must go, failed, I have...

[Beniboybling]

And I thought that this would be the first Kaggath without any participation from the faction creators.

Lol that's not exactly what we're encouraging...

[raandomname]

Lol that's not exactly what we're encouraging...

I know. Would have been funny nontheless.

[Beniboybling]

So Selenial is away and unsubbed and so can't respond on this thread, she's posting her thoughts/response elsewhere though where me and others can post them over here, they'll be posted in Sel's color so you are aware.

[StarSquirrel]

Alright so lets address the skills of the two commanders here.

 

I have quite a bit to say about Nek. So here is a good look at his skill. Now, take it as you will, but I think this placing him far and above Trench's skill. Of course, I think IG-88 is ultimately the best counter for Nek. I'll address that later though.

 

So about Nek's involvement in his wars:

 

 

Swarm War: He lead the Fifth Fleet, responsible for blockading the Utega Nebula. He predicted and countered the Killik breakout plan while managing to avoid a provocation of the Chiss. It was his plan and predictions that allowed Luke to get aboard the Admiral Ackbar and kill Lomi Plo, thereby ending the Swarm War. Up to that time it was his tactics that kept the Killik swarms at bay and defeated them in combat. Without him, the Killiks would have broken out of the Utega Nebula and war with the Chiss would have been inevitable.

 

Second Galactic Civil War: He was the Supreme Commander of the GADF through this war. He masterminded the blockade of Corellia, predicted the Battle of Hapes then won that battle even as he was being told by Jedi that it wouldn't happen. He predicted then masterminded the battle of Kuat, which saw him end the Confederacy's best chance at winning the war, on his own. At the end of the war he decimated Cha Niathal's GA in exile fleet AND Daala's fleet at the same time over Roche after taking command after the start of the battle then proceeded to trap the Confederacy's fleet until the end of the Battle of Uroro Station.

 

Without him, the Confederacy would have lasted decades, or even have won entirely especially with the internal turmoil of GA politics at the time.

 

(relating to who else could have contributed to his success in the 2nd Galactic Civil War) Ackbar was dead, Wedge was retired, Iblis was retired, Pellaeon was a politician by Nek's time and would die in the 2GCW, and Daala (and Cha Niathal at the same time) actually lost to Nek at Roche (where it was 6 fleets to Nek's 3). None of the retired folks made any major contribution to any of the wars except Pellaeon, who was mainly a diplomat and would later die during the 2GCW.

 

After his victory at Roche, and the end of the 2GCW at the Battle of Uroro Station, Nek was so well respected by all sides that he was offered the job of Head of State right on the spot (he declined, he knew he wasn't a politician) and it was only with his endorsement that Daala ever got the job.

 

Luke, Jacen, and several other tacticians asked Nek for advice all the time, btw.

 

He was perhaps the single most influential figure in both wars outside Caedus and Luke, and without him neither war would have been a win for the GA.

[raandomname]

Sil it would be helpful if you could repost the quotes about Skipreys, Vindicators etc. you posted during the last match.

[raandomname]

Alright so lets address the skills of the two commanders here.

 

I have quite a bit to say about Nek. So here is a good look at his skill. Now, take it as you will, but I think this placing him far and above Trench's skill. Of course, I think IG-88 is ultimately the best counter for Nek. I'll address that later though.

 

So about Nek's involvement in his wars:

 

 

Swarm War: He lead the Fifth Fleet, responsible for blockading the Utega Nebula. He predicted and countered the Killik breakout plan while managing to avoid a provocation of the Chiss. It was his plan and predictions that allowed Luke to get aboard the Admiral Ackbar and kill Lomi Plo, thereby ending the Swarm War. Up to that time it was his tactics that kept the Killik swarms at bay and defeated them in combat. Without him, the Killiks would have broken out of the Utega Nebula and war with the Chiss would have been inevitable.

 

Second Galactic Civil War: He was the Supreme Commander of the GADF through this war. He masterminded the blockade of Corellia, predicted the Battle of Hapes then won that battle even as he was being told by Jedi that it wouldn't happen. He predicted then masterminded the battle of Kuat, which saw him end the Confederacy's best chance at winning the war, on his own. At the end of the war he decimated Cha Niathal's GA in exile fleet AND Daala's fleet at the same time over Roche after taking command after the start of the battle then proceeded to trap the Confederacy's fleet until the end of the Battle of Uroro Station.

 

Without him, the Confederacy would have lasted decades, or even have won entirely especially with the internal turmoil of GA politics at the time.

 

(relating to who else could have contributed to his success in the 2nd Galactic Civil War) Ackbar was dead, Wedge was retired, Iblis was retired, Pellaeon was a politician by Nek's time and would die in the 2GCW, and Daala (and Cha Niathal at the same time) actually lost to Nek at Roche (where it was 6 fleets to Nek's 3). None of the retired folks made any major contribution to any of the wars except Pellaeon, who was mainly a diplomat and would later die during the 2GCW.

 

After his victory at Roche, and the end of the 2GCW at the Battle of Uroro Station, Nek was so well respected by all sides that he was offered the job of Head of State right on the spot (he declined, he knew he wasn't a politician) and it was only with his endorsement that Daala ever got the job.

 

Luke, Jacen, and several other tacticians asked Nek for advice all the time, btw.

 

He was perhaps the single most influential figure in both wars outside Caedus and Luke, and without him neither war would have been a win for the GA.

Impressive. I agree Nek>>>Trench, but honestly the way things are looking right now, my money's still on the IDD.

[Beniboybling]

Post from Selenial:

Typed from Terminal 5 of Heathrow, so forgive any spelling mistakes I apologize for the lack of participation, my sub ran out and I've been making sure I can find people to post for me...

 

The one thing that worries me at the moment is the lack of vision for the Kaggath fleets as a whole. People break it down to "Starfighters" "Tacticians" and "Ship to Ship" when really all 3 are incredibly interlinked. For example, let me start with the Venators.

 

Right now the argument is being made that they can long range bombard Sil's ships. That is correct. The argument is also being made that they can use fast tracking point defense turrets against the IDD forces. That is also correct. What you need to understand is that they can't do both. The DB turrets are long range or point defense, rapid fire or prolonged assault. They can't be both.

 

That is a weakness Trench can capitalise on, because he knows those ships. The IDD's tartans are fast, maneuverable and sturdy. They're brilliant against starfighters, and they'll be invaluable here. What the RR least suspect is Trench's tactics with linking shadow droids and Tie/D's, so they won't foresee the smaller fighter force being aggressive or anywhere near as skilled as they are.

 

If trench forces an aggressive move, using his fighters to attack, the RR is given two options. Pull back fighters to defend and go capital ship vs capital ship, or use their fighters to attack and keep Venators in defensive modes. Either way, the Tartans change the tides. They can defend it attack exceptionally well, and the RR's fighter advantage will be obliterated. That leaves this battle down to solely a ship to ship fight, basically, and we know that's a fight the Republic Resistance cannot win.

 

Two vindicators could take on a venator. Sil's flagship is the strongest ship in the tournament, bar the Viscount and Malevolence. It's unmatched here, and can run rampage as the RR simply won't manage to take it down.

Good points TBH, however we shouldn't underestimate the Resistance's capital ship capabilities. The Vindicators may be able to overwhelm them with numbers, but ship to ship the Vindicator's shields are going to be comparatively inferior, and at close ranges a concentrate barrage from a Venator's heavy turbolasers could do heavy damage.

 

The Vindicators only have light cannons, which will lack the same shield piercing power, they'll have to overwhelm the Venators through a steady stream of firepower, less efficient that punching a hole and scrapping the bridge.

 

That and if they can get in close they can deliver this payload.

 

The Acclamators are also extremely durable, and for the most part should be able to shrug off fighter assaults, and have quad turbolaser cannons that again will have superior shield piercing capabilities to the Vindicators.

 

Finally the Imperious-class star destroyer is the successor to a warship that was consider one of the most powerful warships in the galaxy, possessing unmatched weapon systems. It's not a Praetor, but still very powerful. I think its possible that if the Praetor were to be targeted and isolated under Nek's leadership it could potentially be taken down.

[Aurbere]

Here I thought Sel was debating for Rayla this time around.