Beniboybling Posted May 10, 2015 Author Share Posted May 10, 2015 (edited) Selenial you can't make a broad claim like that based on one single instance. That's just, no. But anyway, I'd agree in the respect that I don't think its precognition, but I don't think its tied to personal knowledge of his opponents either. To provide some more context to that quote:"Exactly as Bwua'tu predicted, "Luke said. To the alarm of the Alliance's senior tactical planners, the admiral had insisted that the Confederation would attack where the Kuati spacedocks were densest and thickest. "They're gambling on catching us out of position." "How does Bwua'tu do that?" asked Kyp Durron, who was seated at the head of the Shadow Saber squadron. "He must be Force-sensitive."I don't believe Nek knew anybody personally in the Confederation, and if it were so simple as predicting the tendencies of a tactician, those around him would not be so astounded. Certainly though contexts will play a part, but Nek does how that in the form of knowledge of Trench's history, and well as the ships Trench is using. The point is is Nek is very good at reading and predicting people, without having much to go off. That's his power. However Trench is careful and calculating man himself, so he take risks that Nek's "precog" could turn into fatal errors. Edited May 10, 2015 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Selenial you can't make a broad claim like that based on one single instance. That's just, no. But anyway, I'd agree in the respect that I don't think its precognition, but I don't think its tied to personal knowledge of his opponents either. To provide some more context to that quote:"Exactly as Bwua'tu predicted, "Luke said. To the alarm of the Alliance's senior tactical planners, the admiral had insisted that the Confederation would attack where the Kuati spacedocks were densest and thickest. "They're gambling on catching us out of position." "How does Bwua'tu do that?" asked Kyp Durron, who was seated at the head of the Shadow Saber squadron. "He must be Force-sensitive."I don't believe Nek knew anybody personally in the Confederation, and if it were so simple as predicting the tendencies of a tactician, those around him would not be so astounded. Certainly though contexts will play a part, but Nek does how that in the form of knowledge of Trench's history, and well as the ships Trench is using. The point is is Nek is very good at reading people, without having much to go off. However Trench is careful and calculating man himself, so he take risks that Nek's "precog" could turn into fatal errors. Which? The Thrawn simulator? Not sure how that's anywhere near as much of a "bold claim" as saying beating the Thrawn simulator is somehow superior to winning a war alone. What does that quote say that I already haven't? I've already said, Nek's mind is thinking in bluffs and double bluffs. He thinks, "We defend the most vulnerable, they attack where we don't have troops. Place a trap to catch them off guard". That's really not very difficult, congratulations Nek managed to lay a trap. That's really something no one else in the history of tactics has ever done, right? The Confederation were a smaller force than the Alliance. Nek thought exactly how the rebels thought during the war against the Empire, attack the area that's least likely to be guarded by huge fleets, even if it won't be the most devastating attack. Again, that's not genius, that's recognizing old and obvious tactics and countering them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted May 10, 2015 Author Share Posted May 10, 2015 (edited) Which? The Thrawn simulator? Not sure how that's anywhere near as much of a "bold claim" as saying beating the Thrawn simulator is somehow superior to winning a war alone.This:I'm pretty sure that's the exact kind of person Trench would destroy, since the only way anyone ever beat him was unconventional and frankly idiotic tactics.In the sole naval battle we've seen him in. And yet we know he was defeated in the Battle of Malastare, was almost overwhelmed in the Battle of Ringo Vinda, and finally perished in the Battle of Anaxes, to conventional tactics. So we simply cannot claim this to be true. What does that quote say that I already haven't? I've already said, Nek's mind is thinking in bluffs and double bluffs. He thinks, "We defend the most vulnerable, they attack where we don't have troops. Place a trap to catch them off guard". That's really not very difficult, congratulations Nek managed to lay a trap. That's really something no one else in the history of tactics has ever done, right? The Confederation were a smaller force than the Alliance. Nek thought exactly how the rebels thought during the war against the Empire, attack the area that's least likely to be guarded by huge fleets, even if it won't be the most devastating attack. Again, that's not genius, that's recognizing old and obvious tactics and countering them.It it weren't that difficult, then why does it astound everyone around him? And how has it earned him a reputation as one of the greatest tacticians of the era? Clearly Nek is better at it that anybody else, and it most/all of the time correct. It is genius because that is what he is, a military genius. So much so people thought him Force-sensitive. Edited May 10, 2015 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted May 10, 2015 Author Share Posted May 10, 2015 Something else I think should be considered in depth is the attempt assassination attempt on Nek. As I brought up Mace Windu would likely be present to defend him, but as has prior been raised, IG-88 is likely going to be employing stealth, while the dark troopers provided a distraction. Might we therefore infer that Windu will be distracted by the dark troopers? After all, he is the only individual feasibly capable of defeating them, so they will demand his attention. That leaves Nek exposed, protected by a Jedi escort at best. Now Nek with his powers might be able to infer the dark troopers as a way of getting rid of Mace, and perhaps even that the IDD would send a droid. But even with that knowledge, does he really have any feasible means of eliminating him? Or will he simply be forced to flee? Surviving assassination attempts is one thing, but actually routing/trapping the enemy so you can continue command is another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 This:In the sole naval battle we've seen him in. And yet we know he was defeated in the Battle of Malastare, was almost overwhelmed in the Battle of Ringo Vinda, and finally perished in the Battle of Anaxes, to conventional tactics. So we simply cannot claim this to be true. It it weren't that difficult, then why does it astound everyone around him? And how has it earned him a reputation as one of the greatest tacticians of the era? Clearly Nek is better at it that anybody else, and it most/all of the time correct. It is genius because that is what he is, a military genius. So much so people thought him Force-sensitive. Ok you need to explain the battle of Anaxes to me, I'm not seeing a Trench dying in any battle anywhere near Anaxes. He destroyed the fleet at Malastare, only died to a Jedi led assault, that basically screams unconventional. Either way, that doesn't matter, the point remains that Nek doesn't do the unconventional. No general thought he was force sensitive, a Jedi entirely uneducated in the art of war thought he was force sensitive... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 And how has it earned him a reputation as one of the greatest tacticians of the era?. Just thought I'd pick up on this as well. You guys said last Kaggath he's better than Revan and Surik combined, the two most infamous Generals to live pre-NJO. You're now saying he's better than someone else who is also "One of the best Tacticians of his era". If that's all your saying Nek is, I have no disagreements. The problem is you're hyping him as more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted May 10, 2015 Author Share Posted May 10, 2015 (edited) Ok you need to explain the battle of Anaxes to me, I'm not seeing a Trench dying in any battle anywhere near Anaxes. He destroyed the fleet at Malastare, only died to a Jedi led assault, that basically screams unconventional. Either way, that doesn't matter, the point remains that Nek doesn't do the unconventional. No general thought he was force sensitive, a Jedi entirely uneducated in the art of war thought he was force sensitive... Its in the Bad Batch episodes, Trench meets his dooooom. Though admittedly there are a lot of factors involved. All I'm really saying is one single instance, does not set a precedent. Nor is Anakin the norm for Jedi. Both Saba and Kyp have decent battle experience I think, on top of that the "Alliance's senior tactical planners" were "alarmed" by his strategy, suggest that not it wasn't "what everyone does" but something nobody else predicted. Fact is its made out to be a unique and impressive ability, not a run of the mill trait. Edited May 10, 2015 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted May 10, 2015 Author Share Posted May 10, 2015 (edited) Just thought I'd pick up on this as well. You guys said last Kaggath he's better than Revan and Surik combined, the two most infamous Generals to live pre-NJO. You're now saying he's better than someone else who is also "One of the best Tacticians of his era". If that's all your saying Nek is, I have no disagreements. The problem is you're hyping him as more.I don't know who said that, but it certainly wasn't me. In fact I've underestimated Nek in the past, but Star put an solid argument forward here for why Nek is among those galactic war winning strategists like Revan, Grievous, Ackbar etc. Trench's contribution to the Clone Wars being nowhere near as impressive, instead overshadowed by Grievous, places him in a lower tier. The problem is your attempting to lowball one of Nek's best traits as nothing special. EDIT: Not that this is the time or place, but Surik isn't really one of the most infamous Generals to live pre-NJO... Edited May 10, 2015 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 I don't know who said that, but it certainly wasn't me. In fact I've underestimated Nek in the past, but Star put an solid argument forward here for why Nek is among those galactic war winning strategists like Revan, Grievous, Ackbar etc. Trench's contribution to the Clone Wars being nowhere near as impressive, instead overshadowed by Grievous, places him in a lower tier. The problem is your attempting to lowball one of Nek's best traits as nothing special. EDIT: Not that this is the time or place, but Surik isn't really one of the most infamous Generals to live pre-NJO... Lol. So the fact that Nek is unbelievably inferior to Thrawn, means he's automatically bad as well? The idea that Trench is a bad fleet tactician just because Grievous was given command is laughable. Nek isn't on Ackbar's level, actually. Nor is he on Revan's, just because we have more information on him doesn't make him better. And no, it's not the place to discuss Surik. If you want to, let me know, and I'll list the hundreds of reasons and quotes as to why you're wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted May 10, 2015 Author Share Posted May 10, 2015 Lol. So the fact that Nek is unbelievably inferior to Thrawn, means he's automatically bad as well? The idea that Trench is a bad fleet tactician just because Grievous was given command is laughable. Nek isn't on Ackbar's level, actually. Nor is he on Revan's, just because we have more information on him doesn't make him better. And no, it's not the place to discuss Surik. If you want to, let me know, and I'll list the hundreds of reasons and quotes as to why you're wrong.The point is Trench doesn't have Nek's feats, he hasn't contributed to the war as much a Nek has, and he wasn't primarily responsible for the CIS' victories, Grievous was, and in the end he and the Separatists were defeated. He needs comparable accomplishments to be placed on Nek's league, which he lacks. Its not a question of information, its a question of contribution and of effect. We know that Trench was not as instrumental in the Clone Wars as Nek was in the SGW, otherwise the Clone Wars would have panned out differently. However did I ever say he was a bad tactician? Being inferior to Grievous or Nek doesn't make him a bad tactician. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 The point is Trench doesn't have Nek's feats, he hasn't contributed to the war as much a Nek has, and he wasn't primarily responsible for the CIS' victories, Grievous was, and in the end he and the Separatists were defeated. He needs comparable accomplishments to be placed on Nek's league, which he lacks. Its not a question of information, its a question of contribution and of effect. We know that Trench was not as instrumental in the Clone Wars as Nek was in the SGW, otherwise the Clone Wars would have panned out differently. However did I ever say he was a bad tactician? Being inferior to Grievous or Nek doesn't make him a bad tactician. I don't see how the Clone Wars is in any way similar to the wars Nek fought though, none of them were any where near as big. If you compare Nek's feats to Trench's in the Andoan war, you'll get a lot more similar accomplishments, on a similar scale, instead of saying Trench should have made the same level of contribution to a war that contained trillions of troops and Thousands of fleets, to Nek in small scale wars. That in itself means the fact Trench became infamous among the Republic Fleet, is a huge accomplishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Not to be a mood kill but that's the first quote on his Wookieepedia page I looked in the book for it, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarSquirrel Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 I don't see how the Clone Wars is in any way similar to the wars Nek fought though, none of them were any where near as big. If you compare Nek's feats to Trench's in the Andoan war, you'll get a lot more similar accomplishments, on a similar scale, instead of saying Trench should have made the same level of contribution to a war that contained trillions of troops and Thousands of fleets, to Nek in small scale wars. That in itself means the fact Trench became infamous among the Republic Fleet, is a huge accomplishment. Wait... are you saying the Clone Wars was somehow much bigger than the Vong War or the Second Galactic Civil War? Yeah... right... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Wait... are you saying the Clone Wars was somehow much bigger than the Vong War or the Second Galactic Civil War? Yeah... right... Yep, bigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted May 10, 2015 Author Share Posted May 10, 2015 (edited) I don't see how the Clone Wars is in any way similar to the wars Nek fought though, none of them were any where near as big. If you compare Nek's feats to Trench's in the Andoan war, you'll get a lot more similar accomplishments, on a similar scale, instead of saying Trench should have made the same level of contribution to a war that contained trillions of troops and Thousands of fleets, to Nek in small scale wars. That in itself means the fact Trench became infamous among the Republic Fleet, is a huge accomplishment.I'm not sure about that, after all, Nek's biggest accomplishments are from the Second Galactic Civil War in which he was Supreme Commander, whereas the Andoan Wars took place within a single sector of space. Even the Swarm War was bigger than that, and against a very unorthodox and very dangerous opponent. They were by no means small scale, and Nek can be largely attributed with the overall victory in both. However Trench does have very impressive accomplishments, and has beaten many high profile adversaries. The Clone Wars would have also given him a lot of experience as well, I recognise that. In fact it would be better to focus on Trench's strengths exclusively, and how he can use them, rather than to be critical of Nek. For example, Trench is going to have extensive knowledge of the enemy's Venator and Acclamator cruisers, and will hence be able to tailor his strategies towards exploiting their weaknesses, whatever those may be. EDIT: What Star said really. I doubt there is much difference in scale. Edited May 10, 2015 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarSquirrel Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Yep, bigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Well yes, it's what Aurbere unfortunately left out of that quote. "How does Bwua'tu do that? He must be Force-sensitive." "Better. He is prey-sensitive." "Prey-sensitive?" "He knowz how his prey thinkz. More, he knowz how they think we think So no, it's not actually precognition. It's him using his opponents mind against them. Pretty similar to the way he beat the thrawn simulator, he knew it's reactions and prepared for them. Speaking of the Thrawn simulator, Leia didn't seem to think that was anything noteworthy at all. Just food for thought. Left it out because it was unimportant to the post, tbh. Regardless, I'm not sure how that alters my point. He knows what his opponent is thinking, correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted May 10, 2015 Author Share Posted May 10, 2015 Wait... are you saying the Clone Wars was somehow much bigger than the Vong War or the Second Galactic Civil War? Yeah... right...He participated in the Vong War? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarSquirrel Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 (edited) He participated in the Vong War? How do you think he made Admiral by the time of the Swarm War? You don't get there in 5 years of peace... Edited May 10, 2015 by StarSquirrel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Well I mean, if the the militaries in the second galactic civil war were anywhere near as large, maybe. But they weren't even close. Shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted May 10, 2015 Author Share Posted May 10, 2015 How do you think he made Admiral by the time of the Swarm War? You don't get there in 5 years of peace...Oh, I just couldn't find mention of it, but I see it on his Wookiee page now. I suppose Nek must be quite experienced then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarSquirrel Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Well I mean, if the the militaries in the second galactic civil war were anywhere near as large, maybe. But they weren't even close. Shame. Yes Sel... yes they were... You honestly think that a shock force of clones only a couple million strong compares to the successor governments of the Empire, the Republic, and the combined militaries of several of the largest independent navies in the galaxy including the secretly built Corellian Fleet, the Bothan Fleet, and the Hapan Fleet? You're honestly don't understand the scope of the war do you? The battle of Kuat lasted weeks... a naval battle lasted weeks... And to say the Clones Wars were bigger than the Vong war is not even worth commenting on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 (edited) You honestly think that a shock force of clones only a couple million strong compares to . See that's your problem, blatantly have no idea about the clone wars at all. Only a couple million strong, lol. The droid army was rumored to number in the quintillions.... Oh and the seperatists outnumbered the clones 100:1, so you can forget them being "A couple million." Edited May 10, 2015 by Selenial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarSquirrel Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 See that's your problem, blatantly have no idea about the clone wars at all. Only a couple million strong, lol. The droid army was rumored to number in the quintillions.... Oh and the seperatists outnumbered the clones 100:1, so you can forget them being "A couple million." Rumored... lol And 3mil with 1 mil on the way by the beginning. Even if they ramped up production they won't get beyond a few million. And they'd undoubtedly have fewer ships than even that. Unless you have a better source of course. Meanwhile both the New Republic and Imperial Remnant had been at peace for a while and built up their own fleets while the Vong are introducing a new extra-galactic element. Not to mention the fact that every independent force in the galaxy is siding with someone in this war... I mean even the Clone Wars had a massive number of neutral planets compared to the Vong war. And the Second Galactic Civil War sees the Corellian shipyards and Kuati shipyards essentially trying to out-produce one another while the Bothans add their considerable might as well as Fondor gets into it as do the Hapans with their fleets. Sel I have a very firm grasp on the Clone Wars. I understand its size and I'm not saying the Second Galactic Civil War was much bigger, I'm merely pointing out that the Clone Wars wasn't particularly bigger or more impressive than the SGCW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted May 10, 2015 Author Share Posted May 10, 2015 (edited) I don't think there is much argument to say either is bigger than the other to be fair. Bearing in mind Star that according to the Essential Guide to Warfare the majority of the Clone Wars engagements were fought by planetary militias and such, so while the Clones were only millions strong, they were more soldiers. Edited May 10, 2015 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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