Kaggath Battlegrounds Final: Republic Resistance vs Imperial Droid Division

[Beniboybling]

Intelligence knew nothing on Trench. The republic had basically no information on him.

 

If you want to say "they can find out", Then so can the Inquisitorious.

Do you have a source that says as much? Yularen seemed to know a lot about him. Edited May 9, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Any folks the tallies are pretty close at this point so I would appreciate final arguments.

 

Basically everything will depend on it. No pressure.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Silenceo]

Do you have a source that says as much? Yularen seemed to know a lot about him.

 

That is merely because he faced him personally before.

 

Side Note: Why do I get the feeling I have to be the one to make the final argument?...

Edited May 9, 2015 by Silenceo

[Selenial]

Do you have a source that says as much? Yularen seemed to know a lot about him.

 

Because Yularen did all the digging he could and only found his sigil.

 

He knew that much due to the fact his own fleet got obliterated by him.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Selenial

[Beniboybling]

That is merely because he faced him personally before.

As no doubt many commanders did over the two year clone period.

 

One would imagine over time a database of the battles he had participated in and strategies he employed would have been established. That is after all, partly what naval intelligence would be for.

Side Note: Why do I get the feeling I have to be the one to make the final argument?...

I was hoping both parties would...

Because Yularen did all the digging he could and only found his sigil.

Meh, that's never really implied.

 

And what about Anakin? He knew who he was and his history as well. This is only 7 weeks into the war might I add.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Selenial]

As no doubt many commanders did over the two year clone period.

 

One would imagine over time a database of the battles he had participated in and strategies he employed would have been established. That is after all, partly what naval intelligence would be for.I was hoping both parties would...

 

The Republic's Naval intelligence was abysmal.

[Selenial]

And what about Anakin? He knew who he was and his history as well. This is only 7 weeks into the war might I add.

 

Right, so if you could explain to me how "he died above Malastare" is helpful to the RR, I'll concede

[Silenceo]

Right, so if you could explain to me how "he died above Malastare" is helpful to the RR, I'll concede

 

Superstitious crew might think he is a ghost and flee? /sarcasm

 

Seriously though, until Yullaron (sp?) identified the symbol, he was still thought to be dead. 7 months into the war as you pointed out, no one had even known he was back. Either RR intel is utterly terrible... Or Trench is good at going undetected.

[Beniboybling]

The Republic's Naval intelligence was abysmal.

Another bold claim...

Right, so if you could explain to me how "he died above Malastare" is helpful to the RR, I'll concede

The point is Trench was a known figure, his accomplishments and history part of the military curriculum.

 

Over the course of the Clone Wars there would have been engagements with Trench in which the opposition survive, were debriefing, filed reports, this stuff is documented. And Trench was one of the most prominent commanders in the Confederacy. Just as Grievous' strategy and history was a known element, as would Trench's.

[Beniboybling]

Superstitious crew might think he is a ghost and flee? /sarcasm

 

Seriously though, until Yullaron (sp?) identified the symbol, he was still thought to be dead. 7 months into the war as you pointed out, no one had even known he was back. Either RR intel is utterly terrible... Or Trench is good at going undetected.

7 weeks Silenceo, 7 weeks. The simplest explanation being that this was Trench's first reappearance.

 

And considering Trench had his personal emblem emblazoned on his flagship, I really doubt they're would be many instances in which the Republic would be unaware that they were up against Admiral Trench.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Silenceo]

7 weeks Silenceo, 7 weeks. The simplest explanation being that this was Trench's first reappearance.

 

And considering Trench had his personal emblem emblazoned on his flagship, I really doubt they're would be many instances in which the Republic would be unaware that they were up against Admiral Trench.

 

*re-checks the previous post* Bah! This is what happens when I barely get any sleep due to final projects!

 

Still don't think Nek would be able to get a dossier on Trench if the Inquisitorious is unable to get a dossier on Nek. I mean, who is the one who is much higher profile. I mean, the first showing we have of Trench, he is demanding all the data he can on his opposition, which at the time was Skywalker. Previously this couldn't be done because something about no prep time or no use of the holonet... Yet since you brought it up, should easily be within their capabilities.

[Beniboybling]

*re-checks the previous post* Bah! This is what happens when I barely get any sleep due to final projects!

 

Still don't think Nek would be able to get a dossier on Trench if the Inquisitorious is unable to get a dossier on Nek. I mean, who is the one who is much higher profile. I mean, the first showing we have of Trench, he is demanding all the data he can on his opposition, which at the time was Skywalker. Previously this couldn't be done because something about no prep time or no use of the holonet... Yet since you brought it up, should easily be within their capabilities.

Yeah but the Inquisitorius didn't exist when Nek was around. The Empire was gone, defeated.

 

On top of that the Inquisitorius aren't really associated or a part of Imperial Naval Intelligence. Nor will this dossier be coming from the HoloNet but from Intelligence's own databanks. And this act can be performed at the beginning.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Silenceo]

Yeah but the Inquisitorius didn't exist when Nek was around. The Empire was gone, defeated.

 

On top of that the Inquisitorius aren't really associated or a part of Imperial Naval Intelligence. Nor will this dossier be coming from the HoloNet but from Intelligence's own databanks. And this act can be performed at the beginning.

 

He is going to read a report mid battle? Get this man some coffee to complete the image!

 

Jokes aside, I just don't find it all that plausible. That sort of thing is usually handled before battle or after, doing so during is only a hinderance unless they somehow have the exact strategy that the opposition is using on file and recorded perfectly, and he just happened to get that far by the time he needs it.

 

I mean, its a nice thought, but not really something that is going to -practically- happen.

 

Besides, this is the part I hate about the space battle, there is certainly the chance that the Inquisitorious could cripple or destroy the RR on day 1, but due to the space battle happening first, such can not nor will it, be allowed to effect the space battle... *sigh*

 

(For those of you curious, the Inquisitorious had one of its 2 main HQ's on Coruscant. The other on Prakith. Both of which are in this match and not far from each other. Something tells me that if RR HQ gets attacked by Inquisitors... They won't win.)

 

Side Note: As for the beginning of battle, that is simply impossible unless they already know they are facing Trench, which they do not until the battle is joined.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Silenceo

[Selenial]

Another bold claim...

 

Palpatine admits it himself...

[LadyKulvax]

Yes Palpatine, the man whom through Armand Isard controlled what information Republic Intelligence did or did not 'uncover' at any given time. Palpatine, the man whom controlled both sides of the war and played it out purposefully so the Jedi Order was stretched thin. I mean can we seriously turn a blind eye to the fact Imperial Intelligence became better over night, something Isard remarks, it was definitely not because of the New Order program, which surprise surprise Isard was a member of.

 

They are definitely going to be able to supply information they already have, which will be every battle report Trench is involved in, and fortunately for the RR that is all Nek needs. Better yet Nek is an academic historian concerning warfare, The idea if we are going to entertain it, that he would not be learned on the Clone Wars, the biggest war the galaxy ever saw, which is only three decades old by the time he started training, is tantamount to saying that modern day admirals wouldn't be learned in the second world war.

[Beniboybling]

He is going to read a report mid battle? Get this man some coffee to complete the image!

 

Jokes aside, I just don't find it all that plausible. That sort of thing is usually handled before battle or after, doing so during is only a hinderance unless they somehow have the exact strategy that the opposition is using on file and recorded perfectly, and he just happened to get that far by the time he needs it.

 

...

 

Side Note: As for the beginning of battle, that is simply impossible unless they already know they are facing Trench, which they do not until the battle is joined.

Well I was more thinking that Nek, who for the record would be aware of Trench (as Second-in-Command) and aware that Republic Intelligence could supply him with info. Would choose to wait before engaging, which could be done my emerging a distance from the planet. Whether Trench would choose to engage Nek himself is a question though.

 

However that would give him time to review any information on Trench before engaging.

Palpatine admits it himself...

When does he say that? First I've heard of it. However this is hardly a big ask, we are talking basic information here. All they have to do is have a competent filing system, since again we are talking naval reports, not top secret information.

 

EDIT: However there is one thing I should add, Mace Windu fought during the Clone Wars and in fact has engaged with Trench during the Battle of Anaxes, so he actually has first hand experience he could impart to Nek.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Also Aurbere you said you wanted me to wait for you to post a quote about Nek....

 

SO WHERE IS IT?

Edited May 10, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Also in terms of closing discussion, Trench's merits as a tactician, as well as how he might deal with Nek's trademark strategies and special abilities might be worth considering, as it hasn't really been covered.

[Selenial]

Also in terms of closing discussion, Trench's merits as a tactician, as well as how he might deal with Nek's trademark strategies and special abilities might be worth considering, as it hasn't really been covered.

 

Well I think people need to expand their own arguments more. You can say Nek can predict and counter his opponents, but how is he going to counter Trench?

 

By Rayla's own admission, Trench is a brilliant defensive commander. When he sets up a blockade he is there to stay, and if Nek (as Beni says he might) drops out of hyperspace further from the planet to survey Trench's forces and plan an attack, Trench has time to set up a blockade to perfectly counter Nek's own fleet. Anakin Skywalker and Yularen, two of the most celebrated tacticians of the clone wars failed to break one of Trench's own blockades, when they had readings of all his ships and fleet layouts.

 

He didn't lose a single ship in that skirmish.

 

What would Nek do that no other admiral could? The best thing he could attempt would be to feign and trick Trench, but Trench has already proven that he will not break formation to pursue a possible advantage. When Skywalker retreated behind one of Crystophsis' moons, Trench did not follow. He knew that he had already won, and why walk into what could be a trap when you have already secured victory?

 

Trench single handedly won the Andoan War, became infamous for his victory at Malastare Narrows, defeated Skywalker on Crysotphsis (before the Stealth weapon arrived) and secured Ringo Vinda for the separatist alliance.

 

We may not have as much knowledge on Trench as we do Nek, but it's pretty plainly obvious that Trench is in his league, and it's all well and good saying Nek is the better tactician (which he is) but if Nek can't find a hole in Trench's fleet, what will it matter?

[Beniboybling]

Well I think people need to expand their own arguments more. You can say Nek can predict and counter his opponents, but how is he going to counter Trench?

 

By Rayla's own admission, Trench is a brilliant defensive commander. When he sets up a blockade he is there to stay, and if Nek (as Beni says he might) drops out of hyperspace further from the planet to survey Trench's forces and plan an attack, Trench has time to set up a blockade to perfectly counter Nek's own fleet. Anakin Skywalker and Yularen, two of the most celebrated tacticians of the clone wars failed to break one of Trench's own blockades, when they had readings of all his ships and fleet layouts.

 

He didn't lose a single ship in that skirmish.

Hmm, fair point, might not be a wise move on Nek's part then.

 

Bear in mind though that Nek doesn't need extensive knowledge on Trench to predict his moves, its just precog.

 

EDIT: Also bear in mind that they were significantly outgunned.

What would Nek do that no other admiral could? The best thing he could attempt would be to feign and trick Trench, but Trench has already proven that he will not break formation to pursue a possible advantage. When Skywalker retreated behind one of Crystophsis' moons, Trench did not follow. He knew that he had already won, and why walk into what could be a trap when you have already secured victory?

 

Trench single handedly won the Andoan War, became infamous for his victory at Malastare Narrows, defeated Skywalker on Crysotphsis (before the Stealth weapon arrived) and secured Ringo Vinda for the separatist alliance.

 

We may not have as much knowledge on Trench as we do Nek, but it's pretty plainly obvious that Trench is in his league, and it's all well and good saying Nek is the better tactician (which he is) but if Nek can't find a hole in Trench's fleet, what will it matter?

I think there is a lot he could do if we is aware of what Trench will do before he does it.

 

However if Nek's skills are as described, then he is better than most if not all commanders Trench has ever faced, so obviously there is more than he could do, and more importantly tactics of his own he can bring to the table.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

Also Aurbere you said you wanted me to wait for you to post a quote about Nek....

 

SO WHERE IS IT?

 

Here:

 

"He knowz how his prey thinkz, "Saba explained. "More, he knowz how they think we think."--Legacy of the Force: Inferno

 

So, if we take this quote as seriously as we can, he knows what Trench thinks and how Trench thinks Nek thinks. It does give him an advantage.

[Selenial]

Here:

 

"He knowz how his prey thinkz, "Saba explained. "More, he knowz how they think we think."--Legacy of the Force: Inferno

 

So, if we take this quote as seriously as we can, he knows what Trench thinks and how Trench thinks Nek thinks. It does give him an advantage.

 

Not to be a mood kill but that's the first quote on his Wookieepedia page

[Selenial]

Hmm, fair point, might not be a wise move on Nek's part then.

 

Bear in mind though that Nek doesn't need extensive knowledge on Trench to predict his moves, its just precog.

 

EDIT: Also bear in mind that they were significantly outgunned.I think there is a lot he could do if we is aware of what Trench will do before he does it.

 

However if Nek's skills are as described, then he is better than most if not all commanders Trench has ever faced, so obviously there is more than he could do, and more importantly tactics of his own he can bring to the table.

 

It's a bad idea from our perspective, he knows nothing on Trench so how would he know to not do it? And it's precognition, yes, but not like a farseeing Jedi. It's an incredibly basic precognition that has, at least from what we've seen, always relied on him knowing his opponents.

 

And they weren't significantly outgunned, half of Trench's fleet wasn't even firing, and the Republic (despite knowing the fleet's composition) thought 4 Venators was a perfectly acceptable amount...

 

You're going to have to be a lot more specific than that.

[Beniboybling]

It's a bad idea from our perspective, he knows nothing on Trench so how would he know to not do it? And it's precognition, yes, but not like a farseeing Jedi. It's an incredibly basic precognition that has, at least from what we've seen, always relied on him knowing his opponents.

 

And they weren't significantly outgunned, half of Trench's fleet wasn't even firing, and the Republic (despite knowing the fleet's composition) thought 4 Venators was a perfectly acceptable amount...

Well just the general idea of letting your enemy prepare for you. Not that Nek won't know his history.

 

The difference in firepower is incomparable to the current Kaggath, I feel. Neither did they didn't think it enough, Kenobi gave Anakin specific orders not the engage, because they planned to use a stealth vessel.

 

They didn't actually believe they could break the blockade coming in to the battle. And for the record, the entire fleet did appear to be firing on them, at least you can see lasers streaming from every point in the blockade.

 

We also have to consider the fact that this is not a blockade, and Trench in this instance does not have long range cannons, whereas Nek does, so if Trench decided to turtle up, Nek would be able to bombard with impunity. Not that defense is Trench's only strength, we should assume its his primary tactic based on a defense orientated posting.

You're going to have to be a lot more specific than that.

Thing is I'm not Nek, there is no purpose in being specific when the outcome will merely be contrived. Is that the case with him always knowing his opponents however? It is probably something that should be explored. Edited May 10, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Selenial]

.Thing is I'm not Nek, there is no purpose in being specific when the outcome will merely be contrived. Is that the case with him always knowing his opponents however? It is probably something that should be explored.

 

Well yes, it's what Aurbere unfortunately left out of that quote.

 

"How does Bwua'tu do that? He must be Force-sensitive."

"Better. He is prey-sensitive."

"Prey-sensitive?"

"He knowz how his prey thinkz. More, he knowz how they think we think

 

So no, it's not actually precognition. It's him using his opponents mind against them. Pretty similar to the way he beat the thrawn simulator, he knew it's reactions and prepared for them. Speaking of the Thrawn simulator, Leia didn't seem to think that was anything noteworthy at all. Just food for thought.

 

Also, just thought I'd mention some more about Nek's character. He's quite a cold and calculating individual, despite what a lot of people think he thinks like a computer, quite calculating. He won't go for bravery, hates risky maneuvers and doesn't really enjoy taking chances. I'm pretty sure that's the exact kind of person Trench would destroy, since the only way anyone ever beat him was unconventional and frankly idiotic tactics.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Selenial