Island_Jedi's field manual to operations

[-OBITUS]

how is that different from what I said? dulfy does not mention the 30 percent boost from range so.... 10 percent is melee range. Better check your **** before you say something is false. dulfy does not make mention of the 30 percent boost that dont mean it aint there.

 

Your complete lack of english

But do not fret! I will type a sincere reply without the need for shorthand!

 

To begin, it is very different from what you said. While theoretically, probability and percentage are the same, you assume that you can convert the denominator of both to 1 (or 100 for percentages), or a multiple of each. In an earlier post, 1.3 does not equal a 30% boost. It is equal to a 130% boost which is false. 30% boost in the land of probability would read 0.3 or .3 if you dislike zeros.

Second, I found your elimination of variables amusing to determine whether melee or ranged was the 10% boost. It is possible that threat does indeed have "melee/ranged variables" but I'll have to take a look at it later this weekend. Until than, I will attempt to refrain from posting about the idea.

Lastly, assuming you are correct on these ranged/melee variables, your taunt post (original) is still wrong.

 

The second is taunting, taunting builds threat on a percentage basis and gets exponentially more powerful, the more cumulative threat has been built against your current target. You should very rarely open with a taunt or AOE taunt, most pulls require damaging abilities to tank effectively. Taunts don't build cumulative threat, they buff existing threat by a percentage. They will usually put you above the highest threat holder by 30 percent, including yourself. The thing is 30 percent of 0 threat is still 0, so if know threat is not on the table you better have a good reason to taunt, because your not generating any threat this way.

 

If, as you say, melee is 10% boost, than tanks would not be put ahead by a 30% boost. Generally speaking, tanks are always in melee range of the boss (excluding the newer operations and a few old ones). This would mean the boost is 10%. Also, your last few sentences are true but if they open with a taunt, than they still had the first move and thus the highest threat for the specific GCD. Of course, they will lose threat because of it soon but it was unclear so I'm making it more specific.

[Island_Jedi]

Your complete lack of english

If, as you say, melee is 10% boost, than tanks would not be put ahead by a 30% boost. Generally speaking, tanks are always in melee range of the boss (excluding the newer operations and a few old ones). This would mean the boost is 10%. Also, your last few sentences are true but if they open with a taunt, than they still had the first move and thus the highest threat for the specific GCD. Of course, they will lose threat because of it soon but it was unclear so I'm making it more specific.

 

You dear sir its your complete lack of knowledge of the game. So dear sir variable yada yada poo. Dont care about your intellectual banter for all your presumed smarts you like therein. It does not take a tank much to step outside melee range which is 4 meters from your target, but begins form the center of the boss frames. In most instances you would have to be 2.6-3 meters away to get the extra boost to threat. As a tank you should always taunt outside melee range. Besides you do not have a clue what your talking about your just some math brat trying to show us how big your **** is, guess what not impressed. How about this for your simple narrow minded elistist brain if you taunt outside WHAT THE GAME REGISTERS AS MELEE your taunt will be three times more effective.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Island_Jedi

[-OBITUS]

You dear sir its your complete lack of knowledge of the game. So dear sir variable yada yada poo. Dont care about your intellectual banter for all your presumed smarts you like therein. It does not take a tank much to step outside melee range which is 4 meters from your target, but begins form the center of the boss frames. In most instances you would have to be 2.6-3 meters away to get the extra boost to threat. As a tank you should always taunt outside melee range, your just bad if you do not know that.

 

Funny how you didn't quote the second half... or even use anything I typed. Anywho, learn some english. It would be "you lack therein". My gratitude for my intelligence rarely comes up in these forums anyway ;D

 

Moving forward, I don't tank. Which is why I posted (in the second half, go figure), that I might be wrong and I'd check it this weekend with some tank friends that have cleared 9/10 HM Ravagers-ToS. I would be highly surprised if you could boast the same but props to you if so. Anyways, please tell all the tanks on the second Ravagers how bad they are for not backing up out of melee range when they taunt (lol). Also, where did you get the number 2.6? I can see 3 as the PvP twitchers like to be both ranged and melee so they settle on the threshold where either is easily obtainable. Oh, and the last sentence is "you're just bad..."

Your is possessive while you're means you are.

Cheers!

[Island_Jedi]

Funny how you didn't quote the second half... or even use anything I typed. Anywho, learn some english. It would be "you lack therein". My gratitude for my intelligence rarely comes up in these forums anyway ;D

 

Moving forward, I don't tank. Which is why I posted (in the second half, go figure), that I might be wrong and I'd check it this weekend with some tank friends that have cleared 9/10 HM Ravagers-ToS. I would be highly surprised if you could boast the same but props to you if so. Anyways, please tell all the tanks on the second Ravagers how bad they are for not backing up out of melee range when they taunt (lol). Also, where did you get the number 2.6? I can see 3 as the PvP twitchers like to be both ranged and melee so they settle on the threshold where either is easily obtainable. Oh, and the last sentence is "you're just bad..."

Your is possessive while you're means you are.

Cheers!

 

The center of the enemies frames is the measure for distance not the edge. its simple on bigger bosses you can be closer on smaller ones you have to be farther. PVP frames dont change so do not mention it. 2.6 is for larger bosses, smaller one you need to be further.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Island_Jedi

[Jerba]

This is a great guide, thanks for writing it, good job!

Unfortunately, the players in need of a guide like this are also the ones who'd never read through such a guide and are unwilling to learn but I'm sure there are players who will be helped by it.

While I had no trouble understanding it, I am a little doutful if new players would understand it. You certainly tried to stay away from too many MMO terms and explain it in plain English but some concepts we take for granted are just not known to new players. For example, you assumed that players are familiar with the trinity system and know the difference between tank/healer/DPS.

No guide on a topic like this can ever be fully complete but your guide touched on the most important issues. soowonlee also added some more important information specific to endgame raiding.

 

Specifically, two things come to my mind that could be improved:

• A CC is not a 60-second stun. Crowd Control refers to any ability that influences a mob from a hard stun to a mezz, root and knockback/pull, I'd even go as far as counting an interrupt as a CC. 60 second stuns (I call them mezzes) are just a type of CC.
  
• I wish you wouldn't focus so much on the individual healing classes, after all you did not mention specific classes in the tank and DPS sections either. Any information like that is prone to be outdated with future patches. General concepts like Reactive and Sustained Healing are universal and will stay but which class excels at which is always subject to change.
  

Nevertheless, it is a great guide! If my raiding group was not German, I'd tell them to read it - it is a great read for any player willing to improve or refresh their knowledge on game systems, even if you already knew all of it.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Jerba

[-OBITUS]

The center of the enemies frames is the measure for distance not the edge. its simple on bigger bosses you can be closer on smaller ones you have to be farther. PVP frames dont change so do not mention it. 2.6 is for larger bosses, smaller one you need to be further.

 

Hmm. I'm totally guessing so don't take this to seriously but how is distance measured? If we're lucky and BW like physics, it'll be a dot mass or center of mass from which every other point is measured. So if we make it easier (two dimensional), let's say a boss is represented by a circle graphic and a player is measured by a triangle graphic. Is the distance measured between the center of the circle and the center of the triangle? Or is is the very edge of both (if this were so, which edge? The closest between the two?)? And if that were true, how does the game account for camera pan--because the angle of the camera would decide which edge is closest to the boss.

Also, why do PvP frames not change? with players of typically the same dimensions (relatively), it would be an easier calculation for the game engine to handle. Throw a screenshot if you can later of the 2.6 metres.

Thanks

[Jerba]

Hmm. I'm totally guessing so don't take this to seriously but how is distance measured? If we're lucky and BW like physics, it'll be a dot mass or center of mass from which every other point is measured. So if we make it easier (two dimensional), let's say a boss is represented by a circle graphic and a player is measured by a triangle graphic. Is the distance measured between the center of the circle and the center of the triangle? Or is is the very edge of both (if this were so, which edge? The closest between the two?)? And if that were true, how does the game account for camera pan--because the angle of the camera would decide which edge is closest to the boss.

Also, why do PvP frames not change? with players of typically the same dimensions (relatively), it would be an easier calculation for the game engine to handle. Throw a screenshot if you can later of the 2.6 metres.

Thanks

We really dig very deep into core game mechanics here, stuff you won't know about unless you play the game since beta or really pay attention to this. Anyway, here's what I know:

There are two types of distance measurements during combat in this game: Ability activation and target selection.

1. Example for ability activation: An enemy needs to be in range of 30.0 meters so that you can use this ability.
   
2. Example for target selection: When the boss does this type of AoE attack, any player within 10.0 meters of him will receive damage.
   

These two measurements are implemented differently in the engine. 1 is measured to the edge of the boss, 2 is measured from the center of the boss. Specifically, by the edge of the boss I mean the edge of the red circle on the ground, not the size of the 3D model.

The distance you see in the target frame of the UI always shows the 1 measurement from the edge of the target.

Therefore, it is possible that a cleave is implemented with a 10 meter range but you don't take damage when you are standing at 9.0 meters.

 

Anyway, I think that's the gist of your question. It gets a lot more complicated when we consider 3D measurements. E.g. when you are standing on a crate and not on the same level as the boss.

Basically, there are three types of voids, cones, cylinders and spheres, and more complicated voids like the Underlurker cross are just a combination of four cylinders, with the blue void you see being the intersection of the telegraph with the ground. I've been wanting to write a guide on this for my raid group for some time because they just can't get it into their heads how this works, and I'll definitely share it on the forums as well when I do.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Jerba

[-OBITUS]

We really dig very deep into game mechanics here, stuff you won't know about unless you play the game since beta or really pay attention to this. Anyway, here's what I know:

There are two types of distance measurements during combat in this game: Ability activation and target selection.

1. Example for ability activation: An enemy needs to be in range of 30.0 meters so that you can use this ability.
   
2. Example for target selection: When the boss does this type of AoE attack, any player within 10.0 meters of him will receive damage.
   

These two measurements are implemented differently in the engine. 1 is measured to the edge of the boss, 2 is measured from the center of the boss. Specifically, by the edge of the boss I mean the edge of the red circle on the ground, not the size of the 3D model.

The distance you see in the target frame of the UI always shows the 1 measurement from the edge of the target.

Therefore, it is possible that a cleave is implemented with a 10 meter range but you don't take damage when you are standing at 9.0 meters.

 

Anyway, I think that's the gist of your question. It gets a lot more complicated when we consider 3D measurements. E.g. when you are standing on a crate and not on the same level as the boss.

Basically, there are three types of voids, cones, cylinders and spheres, and more complicated voids like the Underlurker cross are just a combination of four cylinders. I've been wanting to write a guide on this for my raid group for some time because they just can't get it into their heads how this works, and I'll definitely share it on the forums as well when I do.

 

Looking forward to the guide.

I think I understand the x and y axis of the distances (all relative to movement). The only problem, as you said, is when we change the base height of our actual character. We can than either make the floor (our previous 0) negative, or scale up and call the crate 2 or however high up it is. The problem then is how the engine measures. If it measures from the client, you're ****ed if it measures up without negatives; because in certain spots of the game, if you load from a hill at, let's say 5 metres, and your next load screen WITHOUT moving is a guild ship, you move from position 5, load on a position 0, and transition to ... 5, or 0, or both. Still playing around with it.

[Jerba]

Looking forward to the guide.

I think I understand the x and y axis of the distances (all relative to movement). The only problem, as you said, is when we change the base height of our actual character. We can than either make the floor (our previous 0) negative, or scale up and call the crate 2 or however high up it is. The problem then is how the engine measures. If it measures from the client, you're ****ed if it measures up without negatives; because in certain spots of the game, if you load from a hill at, let's say 5 metres, and your next load screen WITHOUT moving is a guild ship, you move from position 5, load on a position 0, and transition to ... 5, or 0, or both. Still playing around with it.

Don't worry about height, in-game, the actual position of your character is at your feet, in the center of the red or blue targeting circle, so your "z-position" will be the same no matter which body type you have. Therefore, bosses will also have the same z-position, no matter if they are 2 meters tall or 30 meters. All telegraphs are centered at the ground and directed in a straight line toward the player.

 

(I put z-position in quotation marks because if we really want to get technical, 3D engines use X and Z for left/right/forward/back movement and the Y axis for up and down, but I guess we can ignore it for this discussion)

Edited March 12, 2015 by Jerba

[-OBITUS]

3D... xD

Yeah--the last bit's got me thinking. I'll come up with something tomorrow. Jotting down some stuff so I can test it in game. If x and z are left/right + forward/backward, these calculations are going to be oh so joyous when we move diagonal and gain elevation.

 

Anywho, if our characters have no height assignment, (and our position is measured off the red circle), do we measure our elevation by map altitude? After your response, I'll probably make a new thread so we can keep the guide relevant.

[Jerba]

Anywho, if our characters have no height assignment, (and our position is measured off the red circle), do we measure our elevation by map altitude? After your response, I'll probably make a new thread so we can keep the guide relevant.

Just put your mouse on the minimap, the tooltip will show you your character's position. On there, it is automatically translated into the user-friendly mode of X, Y and Z that most players are used to, so I recommend you also just stay with Z being the height. It is just a matter of definition, as long as you stay consistent, there's nothing wrong with using the Z axis for height.